I just told Jose that I would like him to send it to me - then went through my genealogies and there it was. Problem is I only have it is hardcopy at present and no scanner at home. So Jose, if you could send it to Pat instead that would be great! I do have all 3 Tomos of the HHN in electronic form though and have extracted them from their zip files, so I think those are easily sendable if anyone needs any of those. Cece -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Pat Corbera Sent: Saturday, January 09, 2010 2:15 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Pachecos if the Rodrigues de Gouveia and João Rodrigues Escórcio was ( Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia) Miguel and Jose, I have the Vaz collection booklets, but they only go to the surname Calacas Mideiros. This may be a very dumb question, but it won't be the first dumb question that I have ever asked, and most likely it won't be the last... Where do I find the Rodrigues de Gouveia genealogy by Vaz ? Pat ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jose Fernandes" <[email protected]> To: [email protected], [email protected] Sent: Friday, January 8, 2010 7:42:20 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Pachecos if the Rodrigues de Gouveia and João Rodrigues Escórcio was ( Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia) Cecce, Do you have the Rodrigues de Gouveia genealogy by Vaz? If not and if I remember and when I get back to the office on Monday, I will send you that and then you can figure all of that. Jose -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Cece Camara Sent: January 8, 2010 8:59 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA]Pachecos if the Rodrigues de Gouveia and João Rodrigues Escórcio was ( Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia) People, people...be kinder to us novices that are trying to put these pieces together for the first time!!! So I think I understand that Isabel Ferreira de Castro (married to ??) and Ana de Castro (married to ??) are both the daughters of Dr. Diogo de Castro & Margarida Ferreira.(correct me if I'm wrong) And that Manuel de Gouveia Pacheco (married to ???) is the son of Ana de Castro and (???) And now can you tell me how any of these peoople tie in to any of the people below as I don't see any common names there? I do have a couple of the people above and a couple of the people below and am desperately trying to make this association that is so clear to the both of you;-) -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Fernandes, Jose Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 1:46 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA]Pachecos if the Rodrigues de Gouveia and João Rodrigues Escórcio was ( Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia) Miguel, It is a good story. But are you suggesting that someone married into the family? Yes, in fact Vaz says that Manuel de Gouveia Pacheco took the name of Pacheco from his mother "pois que seus primos, filhos duma tia, Isabel Ferreira Castro, irma de sua mae, tomaram também o mesmo apelido Pacheco'. His mother was Ana de Castro, and her parents and Isabel's were Dr. Diogo de Castro e Margarida Ferreira. So my friend from Alentejo, it is more than a conjecture, you are right! But you did go through a more complicated way! José -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro Henriques Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 1:52 PM To: [email protected]; [email protected] Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Pachecos if the Rodrigues de Gouveia and João Rodrigues Escórcio was ( Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia) João Rodrigues Escórcio is a key figure for understanding the emergence of the Pacheco name in the Rodrigues de Gouveia. Let us see why, 1. He appears as "testemunha" in Rui Chamorro ( son of F.co Rodrigues de Gouveua and brites CVhamorra) with Isabel Leal. 2. He appears as testamenteiro, in Gaspar Rodrigues de Gouveria (brother of Rui Chamorro) will. Testamenteiros were normally relatives. So he is a figure close to this family. Because he is relative? probably- Let's see João Rodrigues Escórcio genealogy. 1. João Rodrigues Arraes, Escudeiro FCR, An interesting Arrais because he is supposed to be the first Arrais in madeira. He wrote his "testamento" in 1517, He was the administrator of a Capela in Sintra, Portugal. je married Leonor Escórcio, dau. of our well known the Magnificent João de leiria and Isabel Eanes Escórcio. tehy had. 2. Diogo Rodrigues Escórcio (fez testamento em 1533). m. Juliana Giraldes, dau, of Gerlado Anes , and sister of Gaspar Rodrigues teixeira (who had a coat of arms for Teixeiras inm 135r). sons of Lourenço Rodrigues teixeiram and g. sons of "The Gordo." 3. João Rodrigues Escórcio m. Maria Pacheco " (Here is the Hare!), dau. of Àlvaro da Fonseca and Isabel Pacheco - This later was the dau of Pedro de Escobar and Margarida Pacheco (title Escobar). Note - margarida pacheco was the g. dau, of Gomes Pacheco, Fidalgo da Casa Real. IMO the Rodrigues de Gouveia used the Pacheco name just because of this Gomes Pacheco, a very illustrious figure. So my conjecture is that the Pacheco that the Rodrigues de Gouveia used for two generations is this one, comes from that Gomes Pacheco. and no other. In a next mail we'll have a look at the Escobanms. Not jews, but from old Spanish families of first magnitude. (To be continued) Miguel On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 2:32 PM, Cece Camara <[email protected]> wrote: > Guess this answers that ;-) > Cece > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de > Castro Henriques > Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 8:24 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia > > On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 1:37 PM, Fernandes, Jose < > [email protected]> wrote: > > > Miguel, > > After a good night's reflection (?), I won't discuss my opinion on > > whether in the present unitary constitution of the Portuguese > > Republic, Madeira's regional government has the power of a "state" > > (Estado), but let's just consider that in this case ARM has taken a > > position. Consider that in spite of the certificate saying that > > Beatriz is a Gonçalves Leão de Chamorro, they have not incorporated > > that when they digitalized the info. I mean that you put that name > > in the Data base and you get nothing. That is not normal. Why did > > they do > that? > > > > The omnipotent and menacing shade of god-the-father! I mean probably > the ghost of Meneses Vaz paralyzed them. So they co-opted. They > compromised, and instead of her full name they just wrote Beatriz > Chamorra, but they conceded the Dr,.(instead of Licenciado) to > Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia. > > Now there was for sure an archi-famous Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues > - never referred as de Gouveia - around 1555 and 1557. He was > corregedor, ( corregedor da Capitania da Cidade do Funchal, Procurador > das Capellas, Orphãos e Resíduos e fazenda, etc. com larguissimos > poderes e Alçada, porque além das Corregedroias das Comarcas lhe dá a > do Capitam (a do Zarco) and in short, he had more power than the > "Capitam" of Madeira who naturally was a Gonçalves Zarco . > > That corregedor became famous not only because of his actions, but > because he had majestic powers as no one had before him. He was > "governador, ouvidor e Vedor da fazenda. He had at his service as > "escrivão" and "chanceler da correição" Jerónimo Vieira, moço-fidalgo, > and more personnel. > Anyway during the period of time that Francisco Rodrigues had the > government he ruled the three "Capitanias" of Madeira archipelago. > (More than Jardim > today!) ; -))) > > > > > So, uisnng your argument all the ARM is guaranteeing is that she is > > a Beatriz Chamorra. > > > Not only that, even more important than that, the ARM is guaranteeing > that Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia is "de Gouveia" and Licenciado, > and historically speaking he is infinitely more important than Beatriz > Chamorra. > > > But one point not clarified remains. Is the famous corregedor > Francisco Rodrigues the same as Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia? That's > one of the major points to be cleared. As Francisco Rodrigues is quite > a common name there could be, there could even be two Licenciados with > almost the same name, no big deal. > > > > Now, you and I, know that the possibility of another Francisco > > Rodrigues Gouveia, Licenciado marrying a Beatriz Chamorra at this > > time in Funchal, Madeira is highly improbable. > > > > And that would be almost absolutely improbable. In that time there > were very few people of both sides (Rodrigues de Gouveia and > Chamorros) to have that circumstance happening. > > > > Therefore I agree with you but we are still at a dead's end with beatriz. > > > > It has some shades of a dead end situation. But has some vistas over > other possibilities. So it's not a total dead end, rather a dead end > with openness and some light at the end of the end of the tunnel. > > > > > Keep exercising! > > > > I will, for sure. Give it a try! > > > Cheers, > > Miguel > > > > > Cheers, > > José > > > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message No virus found in this incoming message. 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2010/1/9 Cece Camara <[email protected]> > Miguel, > you said: > >>2. Diogo Rodrigues Escórcio (fez testamento em 1533). m. Juliana > Giraldes, dau, of Gerlado Anes , and sister of Gaspar Rodrigues teixeira > (who had a coat of arms for Teixeiras inm 135r). sons of Lourenço Rodrigues > teixeiram and g. sons of "The Gordo." > I'm sorry, I'm lost again. > Juliana Giraldes is the daughter of Geraldo Anes & sister of Gaspa > Rodrigues Teixeira, correct? > Who then exactly are the sons of Lourenco Rodrigues Teixeira and grandsons > or "The Gordo"?? > Cece, II I remember well, "O Gordo" (wife unknown) had 3 sons and one daughter. For the moment I'm on another computer. I'll come back later to this. The coat of arms was for Teixeiras (reference PA, in the Rodrigues Arrais title) was given in 1536, not 135r, of course. Night lapsus. One more detail for "O Gordo", besides being a FCR (Fidalgo da Casa Real - nobleman of the Royal Household, a much coveted title) he was "Cavaleiro da Ordem de Cristo". Knowing that the "Ordem de Cristo" is somehow the heir of the "Templars" this is thrilling. We have better than the Da Vinci Code at hand. Anyway, as "O Gordo", was a FCR and Knight of the O.C. above him (in social standing) there were just a very few persons - only the three Capitães- Donatários, wifes and sons. Only very recently I discovered several lines (3 or 4) going to Lourenço Rodrigues Teixeira, (I had two to "O Gordo", through another son). So now I'm stalking "O Gordo." On other hand he is said to be a cousin of Tristão Vaz, not of the wife of Tristão, Branca Teixeira. He is also said by some gene.s to be cousin of the Portocarreiros. The fact that Gaspar was granted a coat of arms of the Teixeiras may prove that he is from the old Teixeiras from Portugal. The fact that he is a cousin of Tristão Vaz may demonstrate that Tristão Vaz was also a Teixeira, though he was known in his day just, as Tristâo da Ilha, or Tristâo Vaz da Ilha, and not Tristão Vaz Teixeira. Or was he a cousin by the mother's side? Never mind. It gives a family to Tristão Vaz,who looked as coming out of the blue. Interesting point: Tristão Vaz was granted a coat of arms. Quite beuatiful. A Phoenix. The alchemical bird, rising from the flames. However, his sons and daughters preferred to used th coat of asrms of the Teixeiras, much more trivial. (Not in symbolism, just because there are many with that symbol: a cross). On other hand the Grandmaster of the Ordem de Cristo was the Infante D.Henrique himself, to whom Madeira belonged. So probably "O Gordo" was the hand of the Infante over Madeira. Of that era he was certainly one of the most heavy weights. Curiously his 4th g.sons, just used Rodrigues. So recently I decide to check some Rodrigues from Gaula and Campanário, and to my surprise, bingo, they lead directly to Lourenço RT, hence to the "O Gordo." This Rodrigues T. , from Gaula as far as I can see linked mainly with the Matas. They ended being known as Rodrigues de Gaula. All about Gaula, in that era is gothic, linked to the cycle of Romans d'Amour and Chivalry - That's why I have a special interest in that region. Besides, it is still said today: in Gaula lived the fairest women from Madeira." Great "Gordo" ! A direct responsible for this wonderful state of affairs ; -))) Miguel PS. The gene of these Rodrigues Teixeira as well as the genes of the Teixeiras of Tristão Vaz proved to be quite democratic and prolific. Nowadays, there is hardly any madeiran who is not a descendant of one of them. > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Miguel de Castro Henriques [mailto: > [email protected]] > *Sent:* Friday, January 08, 2010 12:52 PM > *To:* [email protected]; [email protected] > *Subject:* Pachecos if the Rodrigues de Gouveia and João Rodrigues > Escórcio was ( Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia) > > João Rodrigues Escórcio is a key figure for understanding the emergence of > the Pacheco name in the Rodrigues de Gouveia. > > Let us see why, > > 1. He appears as "testemunha" in Rui Chamorro ( son of F.co Rodrigues de > Gouveua and brites CVhamorra) with Isabel Leal. > 2. He appears as testamenteiro, in Gaspar Rodrigues de Gouveria (brother of > Rui Chamorro) will. Testamenteiros were normally relatives. > > So he is a figure close to this family. Because he is relative? probably- > > Let's see João Rodrigues Escórcio genealogy. > > > 1. João Rodrigues Arraes, Escudeiro FCR, An interesting Arrais because he > is supposed to be the first Arrais in madeira. He wrote his "testamento" in > 1517, He was the administrator of a Capela in Sintra, Portugal. je married > Leonor Escórcio, dau. of our well known the Magnificent João de leiria and > Isabel Eanes Escórcio. tehy had. > 2. Diogo Rodrigues Escórcio (fez testamento em 1533). m. Juliana Giraldes, > dau, of Gerlado Anes , and sister of Gaspar Rodrigues teixeira (who had a > coat of arms for Teixeiras inm 135r). sons of Lourenço Rodrigues teixeiram > and g. sons of "The Gordo." > > 3. João Rodrigues Escórcio m. Maria Pacheco " (Here is the Hare!), dau. of > Àlvaro da Fonseca and Isabel Pacheco - This later was the dau of Pedro de > Escobar and Margarida Pacheco (title Escobar). > > Note - margarida pacheco was the g. dau, of Gomes Pacheco, Fidalgo da Casa > Real. IMO the Rodrigues de Gouveia used the Pacheco name just because of > this Gomes Pacheco, a very illustrious figure. > > So my conjecture is that the Pacheco that the Rodrigues de Gouveia used for > two generations is this one, comes from that Gomes Pacheco. and no other. > > In a next mail we'll have a look at the Escobares. > > Not jews, but from old Spanish families of first magnitude. > > (To be continued) > > > Miguel > > On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 2:32 PM, Cece Camara <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Guess this answers that ;-) >> Cece >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [email protected] >> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro >> Henriques >> Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 8:24 AM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia >> >> On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 1:37 PM, Fernandes, Jose < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >> > Miguel, >> > After a good night's reflection (?), I won't discuss my opinion on >> > whether in the present unitary constitution of the Portuguese >> > Republic, Madeira's regional government has the power of a "state" >> > (Estado), but let's just consider that in this case ARM has taken a >> > position. Consider that in spite of the certificate saying that >> > Beatriz is a Gonçalves Leão de Chamorro, they have not incorporated >> > that when they digitalized the info. I mean that you put that name in >> > the Data base and you get nothing. That is not normal. Why did they do >> that? >> > >> >> The omnipotent and menacing shade of god-the-father! I mean probably the >> ghost of Meneses Vaz paralyzed them. So they co-opted. They compromised, >> and >> instead of her full name they just wrote Beatriz Chamorra, but they >> conceded >> the Dr,.(instead of Licenciado) to Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia. >> >> Now there was for sure an archi-famous Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues - >> never referred as de Gouveia - around 1555 and 1557. He was corregedor, ( >> corregedor da Capitania da Cidade do Funchal, Procurador das Capellas, >> Orphãos e Resíduos e fazenda, etc. com larguissimos poderes e Alçada, >> porque >> além das Corregedroias das Comarcas lhe dá a do Capitam (a do Zarco) and >> in >> short, he had more power than the "Capitam" of Madeira who naturally was a >> Gonçalves Zarco . >> >> That corregedor became famous not only because of his actions, but because >> he had majestic powers as no one had before him. He was "governador, >> ouvidor >> e Vedor da fazenda. He had at his service as "escrivão" and "chanceler da >> correição" Jerónimo Vieira, moço-fidalgo, and more personnel. >> Anyway during the period of time that Francisco Rodrigues had the >> government >> he ruled the three "Capitanias" of Madeira archipelago. (More than Jardim >> today!) ; -))) >> >> >> >> > So, uisnng your argument all the ARM is guaranteeing is that she is a >> > Beatriz Chamorra. >> >> >> Not only that, even more important than that, the ARM is guaranteeing that >> Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia is "de Gouveia" and Licenciado, and >> historically speaking he is infinitely more important than Beatriz >> Chamorra. >> >> >> But one point not clarified remains. Is the famous corregedor Francisco >> Rodrigues the same as Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia? That's one of the >> major points to be cleared. As Francisco Rodrigues is quite a common name >> there could be, there could even be two Licenciados with almost the same >> name, no big deal. >> >> >> > Now, you and I, know that the possibility of another Francisco >> > Rodrigues Gouveia, Licenciado marrying a Beatriz Chamorra at this time >> > in Funchal, Madeira is highly improbable. >> > >> >> And that would be almost absolutely improbable. In that time there were >> very >> few people of both sides (Rodrigues de Gouveia and Chamorros) to have that >> circumstance happening. >> >> >> > Therefore I agree with you but we are still at a dead's end with >> beatriz. >> > >> >> It has some shades of a dead end situation. But has some vistas over other >> possibilities. So it's not a total dead end, rather a dead end with >> openness >> and some light at the end of the end of the tunnel. >> >> >> >> > Keep exercising! >> > >> >> I will, for sure. Give it a try! >> >> >> Cheers, >> >> Miguel >> >> >> >> > Cheers, >> > José >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: [email protected] [mailto: >> > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro >> > Henriques >> > Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 5:07 PM >> > To: [email protected] >> > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia >> > >> > Mine is certified. You can ask docs. from ARM in two ways; a( as >> > simple photocopy . has no kegal value, B) Certified. With the official >> > stamp, it has legal value. It's a certified document that you may use >> > in any legal undertake. >> > >> > So what ARM is saying when it puts the official stamp is: we guarantee >> > that all that this document states is true. And that's precisely what >> > is a legal document about. True facts. Not forgeries. >> > >> > Pilates is really great exercise ; -)) >> > >> > Miguel >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 10:01 PM, Miguel de Castro Henriques < >> > [email protected]> wrote: >> > >> > > >> > > >> > > On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 9:44 PM, Fernandes, Jose < >> > > [email protected]> wrote: >> > > >> > >> Miguel, >> > >> Great arguments. However, many of the copies are not certified. >> > >> Does >> > that >> > >> change any of your arguments? >> > >> I am with you. Now Pilates class? Is this a misspelling? If not is >> > >> this the Pilates from Palestine? What he is doing giving classes in >> Portugal? >> > >> Wait I know. I will keep it to myself. I heard that the present >> > >> gov't >> > has >> > >> many spies!!!!! >> > >> >> > >> Just kidding... >> > >> José >> > >> >> > >> -----Original Message----- >> > >> From: [email protected] [mailto: >> > >> [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro >> > Henriques >> > >> Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 4:36 PM >> > >> To: [email protected] >> > >> Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia >> > >> >> > >> On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 7:23 PM, Fernandes, Jose < >> > >> [email protected]> wrote: >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> > Miguel, >> > >> > I agree with you. Do you think all of this might have to do with >> > >> > the >> > >> Cunha >> > >> > case? >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> José, >> > >> >> > >> I really don't see very well the Rodrigues de Gouveia faking all >> > >> these documents (or asking someone to do it) to win the case >> > >> against the all powerful Pedro Álvares da Cunha. The documents had >> > >> to be checked and re~checked. Pedro Álvares da Cunha was too big a >> > >> fish to get swallowed >> > by >> > >> any amount of fake documents. He had the best lawyers and court >> > >> people >> > and >> > >> experts working for him. They would detect the slightest >> > >> irregularities >> > in >> > >> the papers and documents. Even better than any of us and perhaps >> > >> any contemporary expert. It was their world, their language, their >> > >> style of writing. They would be able to detect fakers and forgeries >> quite easily. >> > >> People from these days were subtle..\ Just have a look at their >> > >> handwriting many times elegant, precise, elaborate.and each one >> > >> seemed to have its personal style. Just compare to today's >> > >> handwriting- generally >> > amorphous, >> > >> poor, without style. >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> On other hand the document from which I started all my >> > >> considerations is from the ARM database. Now, let me tell this. The >> > >> ARM is a provider of legal documents. The documents we ask to ARM >> > >> has in its database have legal force to prove something like : our >> > >> being candidates to a heritage, >> > asking >> > >> for a title of nobility, asking for a coat of arms, wanting to >> > >> change >> > our >> > >> name and surname and proving an ancestor had that name, etc. I mean >> > every >> > >> register in the ARM is not there per chance. It had to be >> > >> demonstrated that it was accurate, before they included it in their >> > >> database. So every marriage doc. every baptismal goes through the >> > >> hands of experts. >> > Forgeries >> > >> are no admissible, since they are legal documents guaranteed by the >> > >> State.. >> > >> Otherwise no one would take seriously that ARM and its database. Of >> > >> course, even so, an extremely clever and old forgery could pass the >> > >> eyes of experts. >> > >> Though the filters are more and more accurate. I believe we are now >> > >> in >> > the >> > >> 2nd and third generation of experts in the ARM after its foundation. >> > >> Second, >> > >> at least, though João Cabral could be my ggfather. Moreover they >> > >> have a tradition of very good professionalism. So if they admit a >> > >> document in their database it is only after close scrutiny by >> > >> experts on the field.. And >> > for >> > >> scientific and legal reasons it can not be otherwise. >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> So we have here an interesting case. If the doc. I have mentioned >> > >> is a forgery, then the experts of the ARM were not able to identify >> > >> it. But I doubt it very strongly. What interests more a genealogist >> > >> are precisely the two first centuries of Madeiran documents. It's >> > >> there that their >> > attention >> > >> is more focused. So, i think that the document I have (the >> > >> photocopy of >> > >> it) >> > >> is sound and clear and moreover authenticated by ARM experts. I can >> > >> use >> > it >> > >> legally to prove that for instance for having a claim for using the >> > >> Chamorros coat of arms,. since I descend from them with only three >> > breaks >> > >> on >> > >> the male lineage. I won't, of course. But that's an open >> > >> possibility for somebody else who requires the services of the ARM >> > >> and finds the very >> > same >> > >> document and wants to do that precislçey that. And the ARM >> > >> documents >> > have >> > >> that legal force, they are decisive and final proof. That's why >> > >> they are authenticated, with the seal of the Government. >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> > One could pick sides in all of this! >> > >> > It is too bad that Paulo is m.i.a., for he had a strong feeling >> > >> > about >> > >> this. >> > >> > >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> Yes. He had a strong stand on all this - But I don't have his >> > >> particular opinion on this document. He contested others. Not this >> one. >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> > It is possible that he just chose to believe Bernardo. >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> Yes. He is a bit fast IMO dismissing the document. >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> > Howver, you make a good case. So what do we do now? Throw out the >> > >> Carvalho >> > >> > Pais? >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Not yet, though I am not clinging to them specially. Half of >> > >> Portugal descends from the Carvalhos de Basto, from which the >> > >> Carvalhos pais are minor madeiran branch. >> > >> >> > >> I think we have to study where this Leam link leads. >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> > Hope you are feeling a bit warmer. >> > >> > >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> Yeah. Just came from my Pilates class, and am feeling OK. >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> Miguel >> > >> >> > >> > >> > >> > José >> > >> > >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > >> > From: [email protected] [mailto: >> > >> > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro >> > >> Henriques >> > >> > Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 1:48 PM >> > >> > To: [email protected] >> > >> > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de >> > >> > Gouveia >> > >> > >> > >> > On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 5:21 PM, Fernandes, Jose < >> > >> > [email protected]> wrote: >> > >> > >> > >> > > Miguel, >> > >> > > I am just reading the Rodrigues de Gouveia genealogy, and on >> > >> > > note #8 Bernado Gomes Ferreira (?) writes that there is >> > >> > > acertificate of >> > >> marriage >> > >> > > for out two, but " existe-mas é como não existisse. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Ah good find José. I missed it. >> > >> > >> > >> > Obscure words, he said. Anyway he ought to refer to it with more >> > >> precision, >> > >> > IMO. And I think that the document is valid, and was all written >> > >> > by >> > the >> > >> > hand >> > >> > of Vicente Afonso, cura. >> > >> > >> > >> > Now there is no doubt for me that it was written by the Cura >> > >> > Vicente Afonso. >> > >> > And signed, among others by João Rodrigues Escórcio, who later >> > >> > acted >> > as >> > >> > testamenteiro of the will of F.co Rodrigues de Gouveia, thus >> > confirming >> > >> > their relationship. >> > >> > >> > >> > However I don't know if Menses Vaz is referring the same document. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > ..E uma cousa inautêntica" and that's why in Bernardo's opinion >> > >> > > Vaz >> > >> did >> > >> > not >> > >> > > pay attention to it. What do you think of that? >> > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > I think that Menses Vaz had a misfired shot. The document seems >> > >> > to me "cousa autêntica". It would perhaps alter Menses Vaz >> > >> > genealogy of the >> > Carvalho >> > >> > Pais >> > >> > (as far as beatriz Chamorra is regarded), so the horrified >> > >> > magister >> > >> send >> > >> > the document to hell, without having the trouble to explain why. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > I guess I am having problems with an Italian connection!!! >> > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > mmmm. Italian connections are always problematic ; -))) >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Miguel >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > José >> > >> > > >> > >> > > -----Original Message----- >> > >> > > From: [email protected] [mailto: >> > >> > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro >> > >> > Henriques >> > >> > > Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 11:43 AM >> > >> > > To: [email protected] >> > >> > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de >> > >> > > Gouveia >> > >> > > >> > >> > > On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 4:12 PM, Fernandes, Jose < >> > >> > > [email protected]> wrote: >> > >> > > >> > >> > > > Miguel, >> > >> > > > Interesting that the family, as you know, uses Pacheco >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > Yes, for two generations they use Gouveia Pacheco. And with >> > >> > > that >> > name >> > >> > they >> > >> > > administer the "Capela" from the morgadio established by >> > >> > > Rodrigo >> > Anes >> > >> and >> > >> > > Isabel Pires.. >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > > and only much later goes back to the Rodrigues de Gouveia. >> > >> > > > That is >> > >> > > somewhat >> > >> > > > unusual, unless the other names were more powerful. >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > > To add to Beatriz's parents' confusion, please remember that >> > >> > > > later >> > a >> > >> > > Brites >> > >> > > > Chamorra wins that famous name trial re: Cunha because her >> > ancestors >> > >> > were >> > >> > > Da >> > >> > > > Cunha from the Carvalho Pais. So at some time we have to deal >> > >> > > > with >> > >> that >> > >> > > > side. >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > That famous trial is a powerful piece. As you know they won >> > >> > > against >> > D. >> > >> > > Pedro >> > >> > > Álvares da Cunha, a grandee of the the Kingdom, Trinchante-Mor >> > >> > > da >> > Casa >> > >> > > Real, >> > >> > > (he was also Governor of Madeira), from the archi-noble Cunhas >> > >> > > da >> > >> Tábua. >> > >> > So >> > >> > > they probably had access to some documentation that meanwhile >> > >> > > was >> > >> lost. >> > >> > > Anyway, nice to watch, the obscure Rodrigues de Gouveia >> > >> > > defeating >> > that >> > >> > Big >> > >> > > Fish. >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > > Miguel, I real believe that Vaz was not aware of the marriage >> > >> > > > in >> > Sé. >> > >> In >> > >> > > the >> > >> > > > genealogy, he says that Francisco married around 1540 or >> > >> > > > later. So >> > >> he >> > >> > > wasn't >> > >> > > > aware of this certificate or if he was he dismissed it. >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > > I was surprised to see on RTPi that Setubal today was going >> > >> > > > colder >> > >> than >> > >> > > the >> > >> > > > interior! >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > Well, I didn't know about that. For the moment it is a sunny >> > >> > > sunny >> > >> day, >> > >> > > cold >> > >> > > as ice. >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > I am on my 3d cup of steaming tea. One has to drink it fast >> > otherwise >> > >> it >> > >> > > gets cold in no time at all. >> > >> > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > > José >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > > -----Original Message----- >> > >> > > > From: [email protected] [mailto: >> > >> > > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de >> > >> > > > Castro >> > >> > > Henriques >> > >> > > > Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 10:56 AM >> > >> > > > To: [email protected] >> > >> > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de >> > Gouveia >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > > José, >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > > Miguel, >> > >> > > > > Congratulations on this find! I believe you and I (among >> > >> > > > > others) >> > >> > share >> > >> > > > this >> > >> > > > > family. >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > > Thanks. I'm just amazed how this escaped the genealogists. >> > >> > > > Were >> > >> they >> > >> > > > kindly >> > >> > > > leaving something for us to discover? ; -) >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > > Yes, I have at least two or three lines to our Gaspar >> Rodrigues. >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > > Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia is my great (12) grandfather >> > >> > > > and is >> > >> > though >> > >> > > > > his son Gaspar that the line continues until our marriage >> > >> > > > > with >> > >> > > > Escolástica >> > >> > > > > de Bettencourt. >> > >> > > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > > Yes, the "Morgadinha" ; -) Fortunately I downloaded all the >> > >> Rodrigues >> > >> > de >> > >> > > > Gouveia >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > > > I suspect you don't have the original marriage certificate >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > > I have a photocopy of the original. (The priest had a >> > >> > > > magnificent handwriting, clear, elegant, incisive). The >> > >> > > > addition of beatriz >> > glz >> > >> de >> > >> > > leam >> > >> > > > (no capital letters) >> > >> > > > is his, no doubt. >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > > > and that if you did, would you be able to scan it and send >> > >> > > > > it to >> > >> my >> > >> > > > > personal account. >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > > For the moment I am planning to buy a scanner. The old one is >> > kaput. >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > > > Otherwise, I will be ordering the certificate. >> > >> > > > > I also have the Vaz geneology, where I got most of my >> > information, >> > >> > and >> > >> > > I >> > >> > > > > share your amazement that they did not seem to be aware of >> > >> > > > > the >> > >> Leão >> > >> > > > > connection. >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > > It escaped them. I can't see another explanation. It has the >> > >> > > > clues >> > >> to >> > >> > > find >> > >> > > > out who were Beatriz Gonçalves de Leam de Chamorro's parents. >> > >> > > > She >> > >> must >> > >> > > be >> > >> > > > one of the persons from that era with the longest name. >> > >> > > > Trivial as >> > >> it >> > >> > is >> > >> > > > today for a Portuguese to have 4 names, it wasn't in those >> times. >> > >> > > > It would have been signaled. >> > >> > > > Also there is the fact that she's called "de Chamorra". >> > >> > > > Unusual >> > >> among >> > >> > the >> > >> > > > Chamorras who never used that "de" >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > > But what do we have here? First the son of Francisco >> > >> > > > Rodrigues de >> > >> > Gouveia >> > >> > > > and Beatriz Chamorra, is Rui Chamorro, Almost as a rule the >> > >> > > > sons >> > >> used >> > >> > > their >> > >> > > > father's name. Not in this case. What can it mean? It means >> > >> > > > that >> > the >> > >> > > > Chamorro name was more important than the Rodrigues de >> > >> > > > Gouveia. So >> > >> this >> > >> > > > allows us to conjecture that their Chamorro was linked with >> > >> > > > the >> > top >> > >> > > > Chamorros, descendants of the "Porteiro dos cativos", Pedro >> > >> Chamorro, >> > >> > > FCR. >> > >> > > > Otherwise he would have used, as Gapsar did, the Rodrigues de >> > >> Gouveia >> > >> > > name. >> > >> > > > Though there are no strict rules. And everything is possible >> > >> > > > as >> > >> regards >> > >> > > use >> > >> > > > of names of the parents. >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > > > You don't have Brites parents? >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > > No. In the Carvalho Pais title our Brites Chamorra is >> > >> > > > presented as >> > >> dau. >> > >> > > of >> > >> > > > Brites Chamorra married to a Carvalho Pais. It was the >> > >> > > > respectable >> > >> > > Meneses >> > >> > > > Vaz who wrote that title. However due to new data it's, to >> > >> > > > say the >> > >> > least, >> > >> > > > questionable. >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > > But now with the Gonçalves de Leam clue we're forced to admit >> > >> > > > that >> > >> she >> > >> > > was >> > >> > > > the dau, of a Gonçalves de Leam and a Chamorra. Remember in >> > >> > > > that >> > >> time >> > >> > the >> > >> > > > first name was the father's, the second the mother's name. >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > > All we can say it that we added more Italian blood, the Leam >> > >> (Leone?) >> > >> > to >> > >> > > > our >> > >> > > > tree. >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > > > They were not available on the Vaz list. So, Vaz may not >> > >> > > > > have >> > >> known. >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > > That's what surprises me. If he knew he did not show it. If >> > >> > > > he did >> > >> not >> > >> > > show >> > >> > > > it but he knew it, well....But, genealogically speaking, he >> > >> > > > had >> > too. >> > >> > It's >> > >> > > > too fundamental a clue to be discarded. Anyway for Vaz a >> > >> > > > bastard >> > >> line >> > >> > was >> > >> > > > not a matter of shame, or something to hide (like HHN did >> > >> sometimes). >> > >> > > > Furthermore the Leam were "good" families, top bourgeoisie. >> > perhaps >> > >> > even >> > >> > > > descendants of Italian nobility, They were linked to the >> Spínolas. >> > >> And >> > >> > > the >> > >> > > > Spínolas were one of the top Madeiran families. So this Leam >> > >> > > > link >> > >> that >> > >> > > > Beatriz undoubtedly carries "had" perforce to be explored. >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > > > Bastard line? >> > >> > > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > > I don't think so.Furthermore with such a big name. >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > > > The Alentejo cold does help your research! >> > >> > > > > >> > >> > > > > >> > >> > > > Thanks Siberian cold on the way, "Vaga de frio monumental" >> > >> > Scandianavian >> > >> > > > countries 41 degrees below zero (Fahrenheit scale). >> > >> > > > Temperatures >> > >> below >> > >> > > zero >> > >> > > > in Portugal interior. handle me that rum, or vodka or >> > >> > > > whatever, >> > >> please! >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > > Miguel >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > > José >> > >> > > > > >> > >> > > > > -----Original Message----- >> > >> > > > > From: [email protected] [mailto: >> > >> > > > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de >> > >> > > > > Castro >> > >> > > > Henriques >> > >> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2010 7:46 PM >> > >> > > > > To: [email protected] >> > >> > > > > Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de >> > >> > > > > Gouveia >> > >> > > > > >> > >> > > > > I found an old marriage register to which I did not >> > >> > > > > concede >> > much >> > >> > > > > importance >> > >> > > > > at the time. Now I see that it connects with a discussion >> > >> > > > > about >> > >> F.co >> > >> > > > > Rodrigues de Gouveia we had here a year ago or so. Was he >> > >> Licenciado >> > >> > or >> > >> > > > > not? >> > >> > > > > Was it a forgery? (his marriage document, as Paulo >> contended). >> > >> Well, >> > >> > it >> > >> > > > > seems that it was not. Let's see why. >> > >> > > > > >> > >> > > > > Anyway here we go. It's the marriage certificate of Isabel >> > >> > > > > Leal >> > m. >> > >> > Rui >> > >> > > > > Chamorro, (1577, Sé do Funchal). >> > >> > > > > >> > >> > > > > She is the dau, of F.co da Costa de Siqueira and Leonor >> > Rodrigues. >> > >> > (The >> > >> > > > > Costa de Siqueira were noble, and are relatively well known). >> > Him, >> > >> > Rui >> > >> > > > > Chamorro, son of Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia >> > >> (already >> > >> > > dead) >> > >> > > > > and his wife - and here is the surprise ..*.Beatriz >> > >> > > > > Gonçalves de >> > >> Leam >> > >> > > de >> > >> > > > > Chamorra !!* >> > >> > > > > >> > >> > > > > The document is original, The words "Gonçalves de Leam de" >> > >> > > > > were >> > >> added >> > >> > > > with >> > >> > > > > the very same writing of the priest who wrote the document >> > >> > > > > (I >> > have >> > >> no >> > >> > > > doubt >> > >> > > > > about it. It was the priest. It's not an added and clever >> > forgery, >> > >> i >> > >> > > bet >> > >> > > > > strongly on that). Anyway It's a name extraodinarily long >> > >> > > > > for >> > that >> > >> > > time. >> > >> > > > > And >> > >> > > > > containing explosive and brand new information. >> > >> > > > > >> > >> > > > > The Leão were from Italian origin, merchants. "Mercadores >> > >> > > > > do >> > >> trauto >> > >> > do >> > >> > > > > assucar" (They came very early to Madeira, around 1472). >> > >> > > > > They >> > >> > > established >> > >> > > > > themselves in Funchal.They were later and, no surprisingly, >> > >> connected >> > >> > > by >> > >> > > > > marriage with the Spínolas.. They were upper bourgeoisie, >> > >> > > > > at >> > >> least. >> > >> > > > > A Licenciado Diogo de Leão existed around that time. >> > >> > > > > Probably a >> > >> > > relative? >> > >> > > > > >> > >> > > > > In this document we have evidence that a Licenciado >> > >> > > > > Francisco >> > >> > Rodrigues >> > >> > > > de >> > >> > > > > Gouveia truly existed. So in face of this document we are >> > >> > > > > forced >> > >> to >> > >> > say >> > >> > > > he >> > >> > > > > is documented and his full name was truly Francisco >> > >> > > > > Rodrigues de >> > >> > > Gouveia. >> > >> > > > > Now he was supposed to be married to a just Brites Chamorra >> > >> > > > > by >> > >> > several >> > >> > > > > leading genealogists (Meneses Vaz included) >> > >> > > > > >> > >> > > > > Here from ARM database: Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia, Dr. >> > >> > > > > Beatriz >> > >> > > > > Chamorra Sé 1539 46 7 v.º >> > >> > > > > >> > >> > > > > But how come no one mentioned the "Gonçalves de Leam" of >> > >> > > > > Beatriz >> > >> > > > Chamorra? >> > >> > > > > It was mandatory! Because it's an extremely interesting >> > >> > > > > and >> > >> central >> > >> > > > detail >> > >> > > > > which could lead to a connection, still unknown , between >> > >> > > > > the >> > Leão >> > >> > and >> > >> > > > the >> > >> > > > > Chamorros. What is said here is that it (that connection) >> > >> blatantly >> > >> > > > > existed. >> > >> > > > > This Chamorra had Leam (Leão) blood. That no genealogist >> > >> > > > > said it >> > >> > > before. >> > >> > > > > And >> > >> > > > > that, just amazes me. >> > >> > > > > >> > >> > > > > >> > >> > > > > The witness were João Rodrigues Escórcio - well known >> character. >> > >> Joam >> > >> > > > > Carvalho. Pedro Feo (Feio) and Francisco Jorge. All the >> > >> > > > > witness >> > as >> > >> is >> > >> > > > > fitting for the marriage of a Licenciado could read and >> write. >> > >> > > > > >> > >> > > > > I think Joam Carvalho was a judge. >> > >> > > > > >> > >> > > > > Anyway all this is really groovy and juicy. >> > >> > > > > >> > >> > > > > >> > >> > > > > I leave here this info.because I think very strange that >> > >> > > > > none of >> > >> the >> > >> > > > > leading >> > >> > > > > genealogists (of reference, I know and studied almost them >> > >> > > > > all >> > but >> > >> I >> > >> > > > won't >> > >> > > > > quote all their names) referred it. Especially those who >> > >> > > > > wrote >> > >> the >> > >> > > > > Rodrigues de Gouveia title as well as the Lopes Esteves >> > >> > > > > title >> > >> (patent >> > >> > > in >> > >> > > > > the >> > >> > > > > old and regreted NESOS). Had they seen it they were >> "condemned" >> > to >> > >> > > refer >> > >> > > > > this Beatriz Gonçalves de Leam de Chamorra. They would have >> > >> > > > > been >> > >> as >> > >> > > > > stupefied as I am. Did this document eluded them? I don't >> > believe >> > >> > that >> > >> > > > > having seen it they would discard it,. They were too >> > knowledgeable >> > >> to >> > >> > > do >> > >> > > > > it. >> > >> > > > > Besides it has a promising discovery adventure appended to >> it. >> > So >> > >> I >> > >> > > have >> > >> > > > to >> > >> > > > > concede that this document that I got pretty easily escaped >> > their >> > >> > > > > attention, >> > >> > > > > or was stuck in an old pile behind a desk or something at >> > >> > > > > their >> > >> time. >> > >> > > > > >> > >> > > > > >> > >> > > > > Of course this interests half Madeira, since half Madeira >> > descends >> > >> > from >> > >> > > > the >> > >> > > > > Rodrigues de Gouveia. >> > >> > > > > >> > >> > > > > >> > >> > > > > Cheers, >> > >> > > > > >> > >> > > > > >> > >> > > > > Miguel >> > >> > > > > >> > >> > > > > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the >> > >> > > > > list, please send an email to >> > >> > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >> > >> without >> > >> > > the >> > >> > > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > >> > > > > >> > >> > > > > >> > >> > > > > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the >> > >> > > > > list, please send an email to >> > >> > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >> > >> without >> > >> > > the >> > >> > > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > >> > > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, >> > >> > > > please send an email to [email protected] with >> > >> > > > the word 'unsubscribe' >> > >> without >> > >> > the >> > >> > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, >> > >> > > > please send an email to [email protected] with >> > >> > > > the word 'unsubscribe' >> > >> without >> > >> > the >> > >> > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > >> > > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, >> > >> > > please send an email to [email protected] with >> > >> > > the word 'unsubscribe' >> > without >> > >> the >> > >> > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > >> > > >> > >> > > >> > >> > > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, >> > >> > > please send an email to [email protected] with >> > >> > > the word 'unsubscribe' >> > without >> > >> the >> > >> > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > ------------------------------- >> > >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > >> > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >> > >> > without >> > >> the >> > >> > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > ------------------------------- >> > >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > >> > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >> > >> > without >> > >> the >> > >> > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > >> > >> > >> >> > >> ------------------------------- >> > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >> > >> without >> > the >> > >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> ------------------------------- >> > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >> > >> without >> > the >> > >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > >> >> > > >> > > >> > >> > ------------------------------- >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > >> > >> > ------------------------------- >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message No virus found in this >> incoming message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 8.5.432 / Virus Database: 270.14.119/2586 - Release Date: >> 01/07/10 >> 19:35:00 >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.5.432 / Virus Database: 270.14.119/2586 - Release Date: 01/08/10 > 07:35:00 >

Cecce, Do you have the Rodrigues de Gouveia genealogy by Vaz? If not and if I remember and when I get back to the office on Monday, I will send you that and then you can figure all of that. Jose -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Cece Camara Sent: January 8, 2010 8:59 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA]Pachecos if the Rodrigues de Gouveia and João Rodrigues Escórcio was ( Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia) People, people...be kinder to us novices that are trying to put these pieces together for the first time!!! So I think I understand that Isabel Ferreira de Castro (married to ??) and Ana de Castro (married to ??) are both the daughters of Dr. Diogo de Castro & Margarida Ferreira.(correct me if I'm wrong) And that Manuel de Gouveia Pacheco (married to ???) is the son of Ana de Castro and (???) And now can you tell me how any of these peoople tie in to any of the people below as I don't see any common names there? I do have a couple of the people above and a couple of the people below and am desperately trying to make this association that is so clear to the both of you;-) -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Fernandes, Jose Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 1:46 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA]Pachecos if the Rodrigues de Gouveia and João Rodrigues Escórcio was ( Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia) Miguel, It is a good story. But are you suggesting that someone married into the family? Yes, in fact Vaz says that Manuel de Gouveia Pacheco took the name of Pacheco from his mother "pois que seus primos, filhos duma tia, Isabel Ferreira Castro, irma de sua mae, tomaram também o mesmo apelido Pacheco'. His mother was Ana de Castro, and her parents and Isabel's were Dr. Diogo de Castro e Margarida Ferreira. So my friend from Alentejo, it is more than a conjecture, you are right! But you did go through a more complicated way! José -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro Henriques Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 1:52 PM To: [email protected]; [email protected] Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Pachecos if the Rodrigues de Gouveia and João Rodrigues Escórcio was ( Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia) João Rodrigues Escórcio is a key figure for understanding the emergence of the Pacheco name in the Rodrigues de Gouveia. Let us see why, 1. He appears as "testemunha" in Rui Chamorro ( son of F.co Rodrigues de Gouveua and brites CVhamorra) with Isabel Leal. 2. He appears as testamenteiro, in Gaspar Rodrigues de Gouveria (brother of Rui Chamorro) will. Testamenteiros were normally relatives. So he is a figure close to this family. Because he is relative? probably- Let's see João Rodrigues Escórcio genealogy. 1. João Rodrigues Arraes, Escudeiro FCR, An interesting Arrais because he is supposed to be the first Arrais in madeira. He wrote his "testamento" in 1517, He was the administrator of a Capela in Sintra, Portugal. je married Leonor Escórcio, dau. of our well known the Magnificent João de leiria and Isabel Eanes Escórcio. tehy had. 2. Diogo Rodrigues Escórcio (fez testamento em 1533). m. Juliana Giraldes, dau, of Gerlado Anes , and sister of Gaspar Rodrigues teixeira (who had a coat of arms for Teixeiras inm 135r). sons of Lourenço Rodrigues teixeiram and g. sons of "The Gordo." 3. João Rodrigues Escórcio m. Maria Pacheco " (Here is the Hare!), dau. of Àlvaro da Fonseca and Isabel Pacheco - This later was the dau of Pedro de Escobar and Margarida Pacheco (title Escobar). Note - margarida pacheco was the g. dau, of Gomes Pacheco, Fidalgo da Casa Real. IMO the Rodrigues de Gouveia used the Pacheco name just because of this Gomes Pacheco, a very illustrious figure. So my conjecture is that the Pacheco that the Rodrigues de Gouveia used for two generations is this one, comes from that Gomes Pacheco. and no other. In a next mail we'll have a look at the Escobanms. Not jews, but from old Spanish families of first magnitude. (To be continued) Miguel On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 2:32 PM, Cece Camara <[email protected]> wrote: > Guess this answers that ;-) > Cece > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de > Castro Henriques > Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 8:24 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia > > On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 1:37 PM, Fernandes, Jose < > [email protected]> wrote: > > > Miguel, > > After a good night's reflection (?), I won't discuss my opinion on > > whether in the present unitary constitution of the Portuguese > > Republic, Madeira's regional government has the power of a "state" > > (Estado), but let's just consider that in this case ARM has taken a > > position. Consider that in spite of the certificate saying that > > Beatriz is a Gonçalves Leão de Chamorro, they have not incorporated > > that when they digitalized the info. I mean that you put that name > > in the Data base and you get nothing. That is not normal. Why did > > they do > that? > > > > The omnipotent and menacing shade of god-the-father! I mean probably > the ghost of Meneses Vaz paralyzed them. So they co-opted. They > compromised, and instead of her full name they just wrote Beatriz > Chamorra, but they conceded the Dr,.(instead of Licenciado) to > Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia. > > Now there was for sure an archi-famous Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues > - never referred as de Gouveia - around 1555 and 1557. He was > corregedor, ( corregedor da Capitania da Cidade do Funchal, Procurador > das Capellas, Orphãos e Resíduos e fazenda, etc. com larguissimos > poderes e Alçada, porque além das Corregedroias das Comarcas lhe dá a > do Capitam (a do Zarco) and in short, he had more power than the > "Capitam" of Madeira who naturally was a Gonçalves Zarco . > > That corregedor became famous not only because of his actions, but > because he had majestic powers as no one had before him. He was > "governador, ouvidor e Vedor da fazenda. He had at his service as > "escrivão" and "chanceler da correição" Jerónimo Vieira, moço-fidalgo, > and more personnel. > Anyway during the period of time that Francisco Rodrigues had the > government he ruled the three "Capitanias" of Madeira archipelago. > (More than Jardim > today!) ; -))) > > > > > So, uisnng your argument all the ARM is guaranteeing is that she is > > a Beatriz Chamorra. > > > Not only that, even more important than that, the ARM is guaranteeing > that Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia is "de Gouveia" and Licenciado, > and historically speaking he is infinitely more important than Beatriz > Chamorra. > > > But one point not clarified remains. Is the famous corregedor > Francisco Rodrigues the same as Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia? That's > one of the major points to be cleared. As Francisco Rodrigues is quite > a common name there could be, there could even be two Licenciados with > almost the same name, no big deal. > > > > Now, you and I, know that the possibility of another Francisco > > Rodrigues Gouveia, Licenciado marrying a Beatriz Chamorra at this > > time in Funchal, Madeira is highly improbable. > > > > And that would be almost absolutely improbable. In that time there > were very few people of both sides (Rodrigues de Gouveia and > Chamorros) to have that circumstance happening. > > > > Therefore I agree with you but we are still at a dead's end with beatriz. > > > > It has some shades of a dead end situation. But has some vistas over > other possibilities. So it's not a total dead end, rather a dead end > with openness and some light at the end of the end of the tunnel. > > > > > Keep exercising! > > > > I will, for sure. Give it a try! > > > Cheers, > > Miguel > > > > > Cheers, > > José > > > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.432 / Virus Database: 270.14.119/2586 - Release Date: 01/08/10 07:35:00 ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I guess it really does. On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 2:32 PM, Cece Camara <[email protected]> wrote: > Guess this answers that ;-) > Cece > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro > Henriques > Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 8:24 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia > > On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 1:37 PM, Fernandes, Jose < > [email protected]> wrote: > > > Miguel, > > After a good night's reflection (?), I won't discuss my opinion on > > whether in the present unitary constitution of the Portuguese > > Republic, Madeira's regional government has the power of a "state" > > (Estado), but let's just consider that in this case ARM has taken a > > position. Consider that in spite of the certificate saying that > > Beatriz is a Gonçalves Leão de Chamorro, they have not incorporated > > that when they digitalized the info. I mean that you put that name in > > the Data base and you get nothing. That is not normal. Why did they do > that? > > > > The omnipotent and menacing shade of god-the-father! I mean probably the > ghost of Meneses Vaz paralyzed them. So they co-opted. They compromised, > and > instead of her full name they just wrote Beatriz Chamorra, but they > conceded > the Dr,.(instead of Licenciado) to Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia. > > Now there was for sure an archi-famous Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues - > never referred as de Gouveia - around 1555 and 1557. He was corregedor, ( > corregedor da Capitania da Cidade do Funchal, Procurador das Capellas, > Orphãos e Resíduos e fazenda, etc. com larguissimos poderes e Alçada, > porque > além das Corregedroias das Comarcas lhe dá a do Capitam (a do Zarco) and > in > short, he had more power than the "Capitam" of Madeira who naturally was a > Gonçalves Zarco . > > That corregedor became famous not only because of his actions, but because > he had majestic powers as no one had before him. He was "governador, > ouvidor > e Vedor da fazenda. He had at his service as "escrivão" and "chanceler da > correição" Jerónimo Vieira, moço-fidalgo, and more personnel. > Anyway during the period of time that Francisco Rodrigues had the > government > he ruled the three "Capitanias" of Madeira archipelago. (More than Jardim > today!) ; -))) > > > > > So, uisnng your argument all the ARM is guaranteeing is that she is a > > Beatriz Chamorra. > > > Not only that, even more important than that, the ARM is guaranteeing that > Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia is "de Gouveia" and Licenciado, and > historically speaking he is infinitely more important than Beatriz > Chamorra. > > > But one point not clarified remains. Is the famous corregedor Francisco > Rodrigues the same as Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia? That's one of the > major points to be cleared. As Francisco Rodrigues is quite a common name > there could be, there could even be two Licenciados with almost the same > name, no big deal. > > > > Now, you and I, know that the possibility of another Francisco > > Rodrigues Gouveia, Licenciado marrying a Beatriz Chamorra at this time > > in Funchal, Madeira is highly improbable. > > > > And that would be almost absolutely improbable. In that time there were > very > few people of both sides (Rodrigues de Gouveia and Chamorros) to have that > circumstance happening. > > > > Therefore I agree with you but we are still at a dead's end with beatriz. > > > > It has some shades of a dead end situation. But has some vistas over other > possibilities. So it's not a total dead end, rather a dead end with > openness > and some light at the end of the end of the tunnel. > > > > > Keep exercising! > > > > I will, for sure. Give it a try! > > > Cheers, > > Miguel > > > > > Cheers, > > José > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] [mailto: > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro > > Henriques > > Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 5:07 PM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia > > > > Mine is certified. You can ask docs. from ARM in two ways; a( as > > simple photocopy . has no kegal value, B) Certified. With the official > > stamp, it has legal value. It's a certified document that you may use > > in any legal undertake. > > > > So what ARM is saying when it puts the official stamp is: we guarantee > > that all that this document states is true. And that's precisely what > > is a legal document about. True facts. Not forgeries. > > > > Pilates is really great exercise ; -)) > > > > Miguel > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 10:01 PM, Miguel de Castro Henriques < > > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 9:44 PM, Fernandes, Jose < > > > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > >> Miguel, > > >> Great arguments. However, many of the copies are not certified. > > >> Does > > that > > >> change any of your arguments? > > >> I am with you. Now Pilates class? Is this a misspelling? If not is > > >> this the Pilates from Palestine? What he is doing giving classes in > Portugal? > > >> Wait I know. I will keep it to myself. I heard that the present > > >> gov't > > has > > >> many spies!!!!! > > >> > > >> Just kidding... > > >> José > > >> > > >> -----Original Message----- > > >> From: [email protected] [mailto: > > >> [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro > > Henriques > > >> Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 4:36 PM > > >> To: [email protected] > > >> Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia > > >> > > >> On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 7:23 PM, Fernandes, Jose < > > >> [email protected]> wrote: > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Miguel, > > >> > I agree with you. Do you think all of this might have to do with > > >> > the > > >> Cunha > > >> > case? > > >> > > >> > > >> José, > > >> > > >> I really don't see very well the Rodrigues de Gouveia faking all > > >> these documents (or asking someone to do it) to win the case > > >> against the all powerful Pedro Álvares da Cunha. The documents had > > >> to be checked and re~checked. Pedro Álvares da Cunha was too big a > > >> fish to get swallowed > > by > > >> any amount of fake documents. He had the best lawyers and court > > >> people > > and > > >> experts working for him. They would detect the slightest > > >> irregularities > > in > > >> the papers and documents. Even better than any of us and perhaps > > >> any contemporary expert. It was their world, their language, their > > >> style of writing. They would be able to detect fakers and forgeries > quite easily. > > >> People from these days were subtle..\ Just have a look at their > > >> handwriting many times elegant, precise, elaborate.and each one > > >> seemed to have its personal style. Just compare to today's > > >> handwriting- generally > > amorphous, > > >> poor, without style. > > >> > > >> > > >> On other hand the document from which I started all my > > >> considerations is from the ARM database. Now, let me tell this. The > > >> ARM is a provider of legal documents. The documents we ask to ARM > > >> has in its database have legal force to prove something like : our > > >> being candidates to a heritage, > > asking > > >> for a title of nobility, asking for a coat of arms, wanting to > > >> change > > our > > >> name and surname and proving an ancestor had that name, etc. I mean > > every > > >> register in the ARM is not there per chance. It had to be > > >> demonstrated that it was accurate, before they included it in their > > >> database. So every marriage doc. every baptismal goes through the > > >> hands of experts. > > Forgeries > > >> are no admissible, since they are legal documents guaranteed by the > > >> State.. > > >> Otherwise no one would take seriously that ARM and its database. Of > > >> course, even so, an extremely clever and old forgery could pass the > > >> eyes of experts. > > >> Though the filters are more and more accurate. I believe we are now > > >> in > > the > > >> 2nd and third generation of experts in the ARM after its foundation. > > >> Second, > > >> at least, though João Cabral could be my ggfather. Moreover they > > >> have a tradition of very good professionalism. So if they admit a > > >> document in their database it is only after close scrutiny by > > >> experts on the field.. And > > for > > >> scientific and legal reasons it can not be otherwise. > > >> > > >> > > >> So we have here an interesting case. If the doc. I have mentioned > > >> is a forgery, then the experts of the ARM were not able to identify > > >> it. But I doubt it very strongly. What interests more a genealogist > > >> are precisely the two first centuries of Madeiran documents. It's > > >> there that their > > attention > > >> is more focused. So, i think that the document I have (the > > >> photocopy of > > >> it) > > >> is sound and clear and moreover authenticated by ARM experts. I can > > >> use > > it > > >> legally to prove that for instance for having a claim for using the > > >> Chamorros coat of arms,. since I descend from them with only three > > breaks > > >> on > > >> the male lineage. I won't, of course. But that's an open > > >> possibility for somebody else who requires the services of the ARM > > >> and finds the very > > same > > >> document and wants to do that precislçey that. And the ARM > > >> documents > > have > > >> that legal force, they are decisive and final proof. That's why > > >> they are authenticated, with the seal of the Government. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > One could pick sides in all of this! > > >> > It is too bad that Paulo is m.i.a., for he had a strong feeling > > >> > about > > >> this. > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> Yes. He had a strong stand on all this - But I don't have his > > >> particular opinion on this document. He contested others. Not this > one. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > It is possible that he just chose to believe Bernardo. > > >> > > >> > > >> Yes. He is a bit fast IMO dismissing the document. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Howver, you make a good case. So what do we do now? Throw out the > > >> Carvalho > > >> > Pais? > > >> > > > >> > > > >> Not yet, though I am not clinging to them specially. Half of > > >> Portugal descends from the Carvalhos de Basto, from which the > > >> Carvalhos pais are minor madeiran branch. > > >> > > >> I think we have to study where this Leam link leads. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Hope you are feeling a bit warmer. > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> Yeah. Just came from my Pilates class, and am feeling OK. > > >> > > >> > > >> Miguel > > >> > > >> > > > >> > José > > >> > > > >> > -----Original Message----- > > >> > From: [email protected] [mailto: > > >> > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro > > >> Henriques > > >> > Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 1:48 PM > > >> > To: [email protected] > > >> > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de > > >> > Gouveia > > >> > > > >> > On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 5:21 PM, Fernandes, Jose < > > >> > [email protected]> wrote: > > >> > > > >> > > Miguel, > > >> > > I am just reading the Rodrigues de Gouveia genealogy, and on > > >> > > note #8 Bernado Gomes Ferreira (?) writes that there is > > >> > > acertificate of > > >> marriage > > >> > > for out two, but " existe-mas é como não existisse. > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > Ah good find José. I missed it. > > >> > > > >> > Obscure words, he said. Anyway he ought to refer to it with more > > >> precision, > > >> > IMO. And I think that the document is valid, and was all written > > >> > by > > the > > >> > hand > > >> > of Vicente Afonso, cura. > > >> > > > >> > Now there is no doubt for me that it was written by the Cura > > >> > Vicente Afonso. > > >> > And signed, among others by João Rodrigues Escórcio, who later > > >> > acted > > as > > >> > testamenteiro of the will of F.co Rodrigues de Gouveia, thus > > confirming > > >> > their relationship. > > >> > > > >> > However I don't know if Menses Vaz is referring the same document. > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > ..E uma cousa inautêntica" and that's why in Bernardo's opinion > > >> > > Vaz > > >> did > > >> > not > > >> > > pay attention to it. What do you think of that? > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > I think that Menses Vaz had a misfired shot. The document seems > > >> > to me "cousa autêntica". It would perhaps alter Menses Vaz > > >> > genealogy of the > > Carvalho > > >> > Pais > > >> > (as far as beatriz Chamorra is regarded), so the horrified > > >> > magister > > >> send > > >> > the document to hell, without having the trouble to explain why. > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > I guess I am having problems with an Italian connection!!! > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > mmmm. Italian connections are always problematic ; -))) > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > Miguel > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > José > > >> > > > > >> > > -----Original Message----- > > >> > > From: [email protected] [mailto: > > >> > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro > > >> > Henriques > > >> > > Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 11:43 AM > > >> > > To: [email protected] > > >> > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de > > >> > > Gouveia > > >> > > > > >> > > On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 4:12 PM, Fernandes, Jose < > > >> > > [email protected]> wrote: > > >> > > > > >> > > > Miguel, > > >> > > > Interesting that the family, as you know, uses Pacheco > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > Yes, for two generations they use Gouveia Pacheco. And with > > >> > > that > > name > > >> > they > > >> > > administer the "Capela" from the morgadio established by > > >> > > Rodrigo > > Anes > > >> and > > >> > > Isabel Pires.. > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > and only much later goes back to the Rodrigues de Gouveia. > > >> > > > That is > > >> > > somewhat > > >> > > > unusual, unless the other names were more powerful. > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > To add to Beatriz's parents' confusion, please remember that > > >> > > > later > > a > > >> > > Brites > > >> > > > Chamorra wins that famous name trial re: Cunha because her > > ancestors > > >> > were > > >> > > Da > > >> > > > Cunha from the Carvalho Pais. So at some time we have to deal > > >> > > > with > > >> that > > >> > > > side. > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > That famous trial is a powerful piece. As you know they won > > >> > > against > > D. > > >> > > Pedro > > >> > > Álvares da Cunha, a grandee of the the Kingdom, Trinchante-Mor > > >> > > da > > Casa > > >> > > Real, > > >> > > (he was also Governor of Madeira), from the archi-noble Cunhas > > >> > > da > > >> Tábua. > > >> > So > > >> > > they probably had access to some documentation that meanwhile > > >> > > was > > >> lost. > > >> > > Anyway, nice to watch, the obscure Rodrigues de Gouveia > > >> > > defeating > > that > > >> > Big > > >> > > Fish. > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > Miguel, I real believe that Vaz was not aware of the marriage > > >> > > > in > > Sé. > > >> In > > >> > > the > > >> > > > genealogy, he says that Francisco married around 1540 or > > >> > > > later. So > > >> he > > >> > > wasn't > > >> > > > aware of this certificate or if he was he dismissed it. > > >> > > > > > >> > > > I was surprised to see on RTPi that Setubal today was going > > >> > > > colder > > >> than > > >> > > the > > >> > > > interior! > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > Well, I didn't know about that. For the moment it is a sunny > > >> > > sunny > > >> day, > > >> > > cold > > >> > > as ice. > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > I am on my 3d cup of steaming tea. One has to drink it fast > > otherwise > > >> it > > >> > > gets cold in no time at all. > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > José > > >> > > > > > >> > > > -----Original Message----- > > >> > > > From: [email protected] [mailto: > > >> > > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de > > >> > > > Castro > > >> > > Henriques > > >> > > > Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 10:56 AM > > >> > > > To: [email protected] > > >> > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de > > Gouveia > > >> > > > > > >> > > > José, > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > Miguel, > > >> > > > > Congratulations on this find! I believe you and I (among > > >> > > > > others) > > >> > share > > >> > > > this > > >> > > > > family. > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > Thanks. I'm just amazed how this escaped the genealogists. > > >> > > > Were > > >> they > > >> > > > kindly > > >> > > > leaving something for us to discover? ; -) > > >> > > > > > >> > > > Yes, I have at least two or three lines to our Gaspar Rodrigues. > > >> > > > > > >> > > > Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia is my great (12) grandfather > > >> > > > and is > > >> > though > > >> > > > > his son Gaspar that the line continues until our marriage > > >> > > > > with > > >> > > > Escolástica > > >> > > > > de Bettencourt. > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > Yes, the "Morgadinha" ; -) Fortunately I downloaded all the > > >> Rodrigues > > >> > de > > >> > > > Gouveia > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > I suspect you don't have the original marriage certificate > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > I have a photocopy of the original. (The priest had a > > >> > > > magnificent handwriting, clear, elegant, incisive). The > > >> > > > addition of beatriz > > glz > > >> de > > >> > > leam > > >> > > > (no capital letters) > > >> > > > is his, no doubt. > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > and that if you did, would you be able to scan it and send > > >> > > > > it to > > >> my > > >> > > > > personal account. > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > For the moment I am planning to buy a scanner. The old one is > > kaput. > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > Otherwise, I will be ordering the certificate. > > >> > > > > I also have the Vaz geneology, where I got most of my > > information, > > >> > and > > >> > > I > > >> > > > > share your amazement that they did not seem to be aware of > > >> > > > > the > > >> Leão > > >> > > > > connection. > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > It escaped them. I can't see another explanation. It has the > > >> > > > clues > > >> to > > >> > > find > > >> > > > out who were Beatriz Gonçalves de Leam de Chamorro's parents. > > >> > > > She > > >> must > > >> > > be > > >> > > > one of the persons from that era with the longest name. > > >> > > > Trivial as > > >> it > > >> > is > > >> > > > today for a Portuguese to have 4 names, it wasn't in those > times. > > >> > > > It would have been signaled. > > >> > > > Also there is the fact that she's called "de Chamorra". > > >> > > > Unusual > > >> among > > >> > the > > >> > > > Chamorras who never used that "de" > > >> > > > > > >> > > > But what do we have here? First the son of Francisco > > >> > > > Rodrigues de > > >> > Gouveia > > >> > > > and Beatriz Chamorra, is Rui Chamorro, Almost as a rule the > > >> > > > sons > > >> used > > >> > > their > > >> > > > father's name. Not in this case. What can it mean? It means > > >> > > > that > > the > > >> > > > Chamorro name was more important than the Rodrigues de > > >> > > > Gouveia. So > > >> this > > >> > > > allows us to conjecture that their Chamorro was linked with > > >> > > > the > > top > > >> > > > Chamorros, descendants of the "Porteiro dos cativos", Pedro > > >> Chamorro, > > >> > > FCR. > > >> > > > Otherwise he would have used, as Gapsar did, the Rodrigues de > > >> Gouveia > > >> > > name. > > >> > > > Though there are no strict rules. And everything is possible > > >> > > > as > > >> regards > > >> > > use > > >> > > > of names of the parents. > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > You don't have Brites parents? > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > No. In the Carvalho Pais title our Brites Chamorra is > > >> > > > presented as > > >> dau. > > >> > > of > > >> > > > Brites Chamorra married to a Carvalho Pais. It was the > > >> > > > respectable > > >> > > Meneses > > >> > > > Vaz who wrote that title. However due to new data it's, to > > >> > > > say the > > >> > least, > > >> > > > questionable. > > >> > > > > > >> > > > But now with the Gonçalves de Leam clue we're forced to admit > > >> > > > that > > >> she > > >> > > was > > >> > > > the dau, of a Gonçalves de Leam and a Chamorra. Remember in > > >> > > > that > > >> time > > >> > the > > >> > > > first name was the father's, the second the mother's name. > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > All we can say it that we added more Italian blood, the Leam > > >> (Leone?) > > >> > to > > >> > > > our > > >> > > > tree. > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > They were not available on the Vaz list. So, Vaz may not > > >> > > > > have > > >> known. > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > That's what surprises me. If he knew he did not show it. If > > >> > > > he did > > >> not > > >> > > show > > >> > > > it but he knew it, well....But, genealogically speaking, he > > >> > > > had > > too. > > >> > It's > > >> > > > too fundamental a clue to be discarded. Anyway for Vaz a > > >> > > > bastard > > >> line > > >> > was > > >> > > > not a matter of shame, or something to hide (like HHN did > > >> sometimes). > > >> > > > Furthermore the Leam were "good" families, top bourgeoisie. > > perhaps > > >> > even > > >> > > > descendants of Italian nobility, They were linked to the > Spínolas. > > >> And > > >> > > the > > >> > > > Spínolas were one of the top Madeiran families. So this Leam > > >> > > > link > > >> that > > >> > > > Beatriz undoubtedly carries "had" perforce to be explored. > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > Bastard line? > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > I don't think so.Furthermore with such a big name. > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > The Alentejo cold does help your research! > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > Thanks Siberian cold on the way, "Vaga de frio monumental" > > >> > Scandianavian > > >> > > > countries 41 degrees below zero (Fahrenheit scale). > > >> > > > Temperatures > > >> below > > >> > > zero > > >> > > > in Portugal interior. handle me that rum, or vodka or > > >> > > > whatever, > > >> please! > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > Miguel > > >> > > > > > >> > > > José > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > -----Original Message----- > > >> > > > > From: [email protected] [mailto: > > >> > > > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de > > >> > > > > Castro > > >> > > > Henriques > > >> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2010 7:46 PM > > >> > > > > To: [email protected] > > >> > > > > Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de > > >> > > > > Gouveia > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > I found an old marriage register to which I did not > > >> > > > > concede > > much > > >> > > > > importance > > >> > > > > at the time. Now I see that it connects with a discussion > > >> > > > > about > > >> F.co > > >> > > > > Rodrigues de Gouveia we had here a year ago or so. Was he > > >> Licenciado > > >> > or > > >> > > > > not? > > >> > > > > Was it a forgery? (his marriage document, as Paulo contended). > > >> Well, > > >> > it > > >> > > > > seems that it was not. Let's see why. > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > Anyway here we go. It's the marriage certificate of Isabel > > >> > > > > Leal > > m. > > >> > Rui > > >> > > > > Chamorro, (1577, Sé do Funchal). > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > She is the dau, of F.co da Costa de Siqueira and Leonor > > Rodrigues. > > >> > (The > > >> > > > > Costa de Siqueira were noble, and are relatively well known). > > Him, > > >> > Rui > > >> > > > > Chamorro, son of Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia > > >> (already > > >> > > dead) > > >> > > > > and his wife - and here is the surprise ..*.Beatriz > > >> > > > > Gonçalves de > > >> Leam > > >> > > de > > >> > > > > Chamorra !!* > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > The document is original, The words "Gonçalves de Leam de" > > >> > > > > were > > >> added > > >> > > > with > > >> > > > > the very same writing of the priest who wrote the document > > >> > > > > (I > > have > > >> no > > >> > > > doubt > > >> > > > > about it. It was the priest. It's not an added and clever > > forgery, > > >> i > > >> > > bet > > >> > > > > strongly on that). Anyway It's a name extraodinarily long > > >> > > > > for > > that > > >> > > time. > > >> > > > > And > > >> > > > > containing explosive and brand new information. > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > The Leão were from Italian origin, merchants. "Mercadores > > >> > > > > do > > >> trauto > > >> > do > > >> > > > > assucar" (They came very early to Madeira, around 1472). > > >> > > > > They > > >> > > established > > >> > > > > themselves in Funchal.They were later and, no surprisingly, > > >> connected > > >> > > by > > >> > > > > marriage with the Spínolas.. They were upper bourgeoisie, > > >> > > > > at > > >> least. > > >> > > > > A Licenciado Diogo de Leão existed around that time. > > >> > > > > Probably a > > >> > > relative? > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > In this document we have evidence that a Licenciado > > >> > > > > Francisco > > >> > Rodrigues > > >> > > > de > > >> > > > > Gouveia truly existed. So in face of this document we are > > >> > > > > forced > > >> to > > >> > say > > >> > > > he > > >> > > > > is documented and his full name was truly Francisco > > >> > > > > Rodrigues de > > >> > > Gouveia. > > >> > > > > Now he was supposed to be married to a just Brites Chamorra > > >> > > > > by > > >> > several > > >> > > > > leading genealogists (Meneses Vaz included) > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > Here from ARM database: Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia, Dr. > > >> > > > > Beatriz > > >> > > > > Chamorra Sé 1539 46 7 v.º > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > But how come no one mentioned the "Gonçalves de Leam" of > > >> > > > > Beatriz > > >> > > > Chamorra? > > >> > > > > It was mandatory! Because it's an extremely interesting > > >> > > > > and > > >> central > > >> > > > detail > > >> > > > > which could lead to a connection, still unknown , between > > >> > > > > the > > Leão > > >> > and > > >> > > > the > > >> > > > > Chamorros. What is said here is that it (that connection) > > >> blatantly > > >> > > > > existed. > > >> > > > > This Chamorra had Leam (Leão) blood. That no genealogist > > >> > > > > said it > > >> > > before. > > >> > > > > And > > >> > > > > that, just amazes me. > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > The witness were João Rodrigues Escórcio - well known > character. > > >> Joam > > >> > > > > Carvalho. Pedro Feo (Feio) and Francisco Jorge. All the > > >> > > > > witness > > as > > >> is > > >> > > > > fitting for the marriage of a Licenciado could read and write. > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > I think Joam Carvalho was a judge. > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > Anyway all this is really groovy and juicy. > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > I leave here this info.because I think very strange that > > >> > > > > none of > > >> the > > >> > > > > leading > > >> > > > > genealogists (of reference, I know and studied almost them > > >> > > > > all > > but > > >> I > > >> > > > won't > > >> > > > > quote all their names) referred it. Especially those who > > >> > > > > wrote > > >> the > > >> > > > > Rodrigues de Gouveia title as well as the Lopes Esteves > > >> > > > > title > > >> (patent > > >> > > in > > >> > > > > the > > >> > > > > old and regreted NESOS). Had they seen it they were > "condemned" > > to > > >> > > refer > > >> > > > > this Beatriz Gonçalves de Leam de Chamorra. They would have > > >> > > > > been > > >> as > > >> > > > > stupefied as I am. Did this document eluded them? I don't > > believe > > >> > that > > >> > > > > having seen it they would discard it,. They were too > > knowledgeable > > >> to > > >> > > do > > >> > > > > it. > > >> > > > > Besides it has a promising discovery adventure appended to it. > > So > > >> I > > >> > > have > > >> > > > to > > >> > > > > concede that this document that I got pretty easily escaped > > their > > >> > > > > attention, > > >> > > > > or was stuck in an old pile behind a desk or something at > > >> > > > > their > > >> time. > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > Of course this interests half Madeira, since half Madeira > > descends > > >> > from > > >> > > > the > > >> > > > > Rodrigues de Gouveia. > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > Cheers, > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > Miguel > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the > > >> > > > > list, please send an email to > > >> > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > >> without > > >> > > the > > >> > > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the > > >> > > > > list, please send an email to > > >> > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > >> without > > >> > > the > > >> > > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, > > >> > > > please send an email to [email protected] with > > >> > > > the word 'unsubscribe' > > >> without > > >> > the > > >> > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, > > >> > > > please send an email to [email protected] with > > >> > > > the word 'unsubscribe' > > >> without > > >> > the > > >> > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, > > >> > > please send an email to [email protected] with > > >> > > the word 'unsubscribe' > > without > > >> the > > >> > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, > > >> > > please send an email to [email protected] with > > >> > > the word 'unsubscribe' > > without > > >> the > > >> > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > ------------------------------- > > >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > >> > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > >> > without > > >> the > > >> > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > ------------------------------- > > >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > >> > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > >> > without > > >> the > > >> > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > >> > > > >> > > >> ------------------------------- > > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > >> without > > the > > >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > >> > > >> > > >> ------------------------------- > > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > >> without > > the > > >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > >> > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message No virus found in this > incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.5.432 / Virus Database: 270.14.119/2586 - Release Date: 01/07/10 > 19:35:00 > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Cece, I have the following: Source: Posting from Prt-Madeira by Miguel Castro Henriques...Jan 21, 2008 " Hi Leandro, You're in your lucky day because someone just send me Genealogias Faialenses, a very rare and out of print genealogical book about families from Ilha do Faial, Açores. Título XXXI UTRAS Procedem da mais nobre geração flamenga com residencia na cidade de Bruges, Fixaram-se no Faial ao terminar do século XV em três linhas. Jorge d'Utra (originalmente Josse Van Hurtere), primeiro donatário, e Josina d'Utra. sua irmã, filhos de Léo Van Hurtere, bailio de Wynendael, senhor do senhorio feudal de Aghebrone (Haeghebrouc) e Balduíno d'Utra, proximo parente daqueles. e não irmão como erradamrmte disseram alguns historiadores. Jorge D'Ura married Beatriz de Macedo (she died in 1531) they had Catarina de Macedo m. Rui Barros natural da Ilha da madeira. Probably from this last couple comes your Barnabé ? (I think they are the origin of the Utras in Madeira) A question your Utras were Corte Real? (D' Utra Corte Real) - in that case - though close relatives - they ! come from another branch. Hope this helps, Miguel" Pat ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cece Camara" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Friday, January 8, 2010 4:06:22 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Chamorra I do not have all the illustrous Chamorras being spoken about as of late...yet. However I do have one - a Pedro Chamorra who married Francisca de Barros abt 1520-1530 my guess. Franciscas parents were Diogo de Barros and Francisca Henriques. I do not know who this Pedro Chamorro's parents are - can anyone tell me by chance? My only other Chamorro is this Pedro & Francisca's daughter, Leonora Chamorro who married Tristão de Barros of Rui de Barros and Macêdo(?). Rui de Barros and Diogo de Barros (first paragragh) were brothers and sons of Pedro Goncalves & Isabel de Barros (again more sons taking their mother's name because...???) Cece ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Now the line hypothetically can be arranged like this: 1 Afonso Chamorro, Escudeiro da Casa Real m. N., they had: 2. Pedro Chamorro Escudeiro FCR m. Inês Gonçalves de Leam, they had: 3. Brites Gonçalves de Leam de Chamorra m. F.co Rodrigues de Gouveia, they had 4 Rui, Gaspar and all the rest until us. So now we have Inês Gonçalves ( de Leam) to investigate. 2010/1/8 Miguel de Castro Henriques <[email protected]> > > The Witness Way is always tortuous and difficult. (A Via Sinuosa) ; -))) > > Yes I was aware of that connection that Meneses Vaz made through the > Castros. So now both ends ( the sinuous and the straight) meet and we have a > much more solid foundation to explain the emergence of the name Pacheco. > > Meneses Vaz left something for us to explore and snack over. Nice guy. > > I have the connection of the Castros to the Escobar/Pacheco somewhere, > taken from old P. A., of course. > > But I was not aware of Gomes Pacheco, FCR. And now that the we have the > broader picture we can see that he is also pivotal in all this scheme. > > That+s why I always insisit on the names of witness, in the names of > testemunhas in one side, and if available in the names of the > testamentertos. The "testamentos" can be a mine of info. > > > Miguel > > > > 2010/1/8 Fernandes, Jose <[email protected]> > > Miguel, >> It is a good story. But are you suggesting that someone married into the >> family? >> Yes, in fact Vaz says that Manuel de Gouveia Pacheco took the name of >> Pacheco from his mother "pois que seus primos, filhos duma tia, Isabel >> Ferreira Castro, irma de sua mae, tomaram também o mesmo apelido Pacheco'. >> >> His mother was Ana de Castro, and her parents and Isabel's were Dr. Diogo >> de Castro e Margarida Ferreira. >> So my friend from Alentejo, it is more than a conjecture, you are right! >> But you did go through a more complicated way! >> >> José >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [email protected] [mailto: >> [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro Henriques >> Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 1:52 PM >> To: [email protected]; [email protected] >> Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Pachecos if the Rodrigues de Gouveia and João >> Rodrigues Escórcio was ( Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia) >> >> João Rodrigues Escórcio is a key figure for understanding the emergence of >> the Pacheco name in the Rodrigues de Gouveia. >> >> Let us see why, >> >> 1. He appears as "testemunha" in Rui Chamorro ( son of F.co Rodrigues de >> Gouveua and brites CVhamorra) with Isabel Leal. >> 2. He appears as testamenteiro, in Gaspar Rodrigues de Gouveria (brother >> of >> Rui Chamorro) will. Testamenteiros were normally relatives. >> >> So he is a figure close to this family. Because he is relative? probably- >> >> Let's see João Rodrigues Escórcio genealogy. >> >> >> 1. João Rodrigues Arraes, Escudeiro FCR, An interesting Arrais because he >> is >> supposed to be the first Arrais in madeira. He wrote his "testamento" in >> 1517, He was the administrator of a Capela in Sintra, Portugal. je >> married >> Leonor Escórcio, dau. of our well known the Magnificent João de leiria and >> Isabel Eanes Escórcio. tehy had. >> 2. Diogo Rodrigues Escórcio (fez testamento em 1533). m. Juliana Giraldes, >> dau, of Gerlado Anes , and sister of Gaspar Rodrigues teixeira (who had a >> coat of arms for Teixeiras inm 135r). sons of Lourenço Rodrigues teixeiram >> and g. sons of "The Gordo." >> >> 3. João Rodrigues Escórcio m. Maria Pacheco " (Here is the Hare!), dau. of >> Àlvaro da Fonseca and Isabel Pacheco - This later was the dau of Pedro de >> Escobar and Margarida Pacheco (title Escobar). >> >> Note - margarida pacheco was the g. dau, of Gomes Pacheco, Fidalgo da Casa >> Real. IMO the Rodrigues de Gouveia used the Pacheco name just because of >> this Gomes Pacheco, a very illustrious figure. >> >> So my conjecture is that the Pacheco that the Rodrigues de Gouveia used >> for >> two generations is this one, comes from that Gomes Pacheco. and no other. >> >> In a next mail we'll have a look at the Escobanms. >> >> Not jews, but from old Spanish families of first magnitude. >> >> (To be continued) >> >> >> Miguel >> >> On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 2:32 PM, Cece Camara <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> > Guess this answers that ;-) >> > Cece >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: [email protected] >> > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro >> > Henriques >> > Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 8:24 AM >> > To: [email protected] >> > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia >> > >> > On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 1:37 PM, Fernandes, Jose < >> > [email protected]> wrote: >> > >> > > Miguel, >> > > After a good night's reflection (?), I won't discuss my opinion on >> > > whether in the present unitary constitution of the Portuguese >> > > Republic, Madeira's regional government has the power of a "state" >> > > (Estado), but let's just consider that in this case ARM has taken a >> > > position. Consider that in spite of the certificate saying that >> > > Beatriz is a Gonçalves Leão de Chamorro, they have not incorporated >> > > that when they digitalized the info. I mean that you put that name in >> > > the Data base and you get nothing. That is not normal. Why did they do >> > that? >> > > >> > >> > The omnipotent and menacing shade of god-the-father! I mean probably >> the >> > ghost of Meneses Vaz paralyzed them. So they co-opted. They compromised, >> > and >> > instead of her full name they just wrote Beatriz Chamorra, but they >> > conceded >> > the Dr,.(instead of Licenciado) to Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia. >> > >> > Now there was for sure an archi-famous Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues - >> > never referred as de Gouveia - around 1555 and 1557. He was corregedor, >> ( >> > corregedor da Capitania da Cidade do Funchal, Procurador das Capellas, >> > Orphãos e Resíduos e fazenda, etc. com larguissimos poderes e Alçada, >> > porque >> > além das Corregedroias das Comarcas lhe dá a do Capitam (a do Zarco) >> and >> > in >> > short, he had more power than the "Capitam" of Madeira who naturally was >> a >> > Gonçalves Zarco . >> > >> > That corregedor became famous not only because of his actions, but >> because >> > he had majestic powers as no one had before him. He was "governador, >> > ouvidor >> > e Vedor da fazenda. He had at his service as "escrivão" and "chanceler >> da >> > correição" Jerónimo Vieira, moço-fidalgo, and more personnel. >> > Anyway during the period of time that Francisco Rodrigues had the >> > government >> > he ruled the three "Capitanias" of Madeira archipelago. (More than >> Jardim >> > today!) ; -))) >> > >> > >> > >> > > So, uisnng your argument all the ARM is guaranteeing is that she is a >> > > Beatriz Chamorra. >> > >> > >> > Not only that, even more important than that, the ARM is guaranteeing >> that >> > Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia is "de Gouveia" and Licenciado, and >> > historically speaking he is infinitely more important than Beatriz >> > Chamorra. >> > >> > >> > But one point not clarified remains. Is the famous corregedor Francisco >> > Rodrigues the same as Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia? That's one of the >> > major points to be cleared. As Francisco Rodrigues is quite a common >> name >> > there could be, there could even be two Licenciados with almost the same >> > name, no big deal. >> > >> > >> > > Now, you and I, know that the possibility of another Francisco >> > > Rodrigues Gouveia, Licenciado marrying a Beatriz Chamorra at this time >> > > in Funchal, Madeira is highly improbable. >> > > >> > >> > And that would be almost absolutely improbable. In that time there were >> > very >> > few people of both sides (Rodrigues de Gouveia and Chamorros) to have >> that >> > circumstance happening. >> > >> > >> > > Therefore I agree with you but we are still at a dead's end with >> beatriz. >> > > >> > >> > It has some shades of a dead end situation. But has some vistas over >> other >> > possibilities. So it's not a total dead end, rather a dead end with >> > openness >> > and some light at the end of the end of the tunnel. >> > >> > >> > >> > > Keep exercising! >> > > >> > >> > I will, for sure. Give it a try! >> > >> > >> > Cheers, >> > >> > Miguel >> > >> > >> > >> > > Cheers, >> > > José >> > > >> > >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > >

The Witness Way is always tortuous and difficult. (A Via Sinuosa) ; -))) Yes I was aware of that connection that Meneses Vaz made through the Castros. So now both ends ( the sinuous and the straight) meet and we have a much more solid foundation to explain the emergence of the name Pacheco. Meneses Vaz left something for us to explore and snack over. Nice guy. I have the connection of the Castros to the Escobar/Pacheco somewhere, taken from old P. A., of course. But I was not aware of Gomes Pacheco, FCR. And now that the we have the broader picture we can see that he is also pivotal in all this scheme. That+s why I always insisit on the names of witness, in the names of testemunhas in one side, and if available in the names of the testamentertos. The "testamentos" can be a mine of info. Miguel 2010/1/8 Fernandes, Jose <[email protected]> > Miguel, > It is a good story. But are you suggesting that someone married into the > family? > Yes, in fact Vaz says that Manuel de Gouveia Pacheco took the name of > Pacheco from his mother "pois que seus primos, filhos duma tia, Isabel > Ferreira Castro, irma de sua mae, tomaram também o mesmo apelido Pacheco'. > > His mother was Ana de Castro, and her parents and Isabel's were Dr. Diogo > de Castro e Margarida Ferreira. > So my friend from Alentejo, it is more than a conjecture, you are right! > But you did go through a more complicated way! > > José > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto: > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro Henriques > Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 1:52 PM > To: [email protected]; [email protected] > Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Pachecos if the Rodrigues de Gouveia and João > Rodrigues Escórcio was ( Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia) > > João Rodrigues Escórcio is a key figure for understanding the emergence of > the Pacheco name in the Rodrigues de Gouveia. > > Let us see why, > > 1. He appears as "testemunha" in Rui Chamorro ( son of F.co Rodrigues de > Gouveua and brites CVhamorra) with Isabel Leal. > 2. He appears as testamenteiro, in Gaspar Rodrigues de Gouveria (brother of > Rui Chamorro) will. Testamenteiros were normally relatives. > > So he is a figure close to this family. Because he is relative? probably- > > Let's see João Rodrigues Escórcio genealogy. > > > 1. João Rodrigues Arraes, Escudeiro FCR, An interesting Arrais because he > is > supposed to be the first Arrais in madeira. He wrote his "testamento" in > 1517, He was the administrator of a Capela in Sintra, Portugal. je married > Leonor Escórcio, dau. of our well known the Magnificent João de leiria and > Isabel Eanes Escórcio. tehy had. > 2. Diogo Rodrigues Escórcio (fez testamento em 1533). m. Juliana Giraldes, > dau, of Gerlado Anes , and sister of Gaspar Rodrigues teixeira (who had a > coat of arms for Teixeiras inm 135r). sons of Lourenço Rodrigues teixeiram > and g. sons of "The Gordo." > > 3. João Rodrigues Escórcio m. Maria Pacheco " (Here is the Hare!), dau. of > Àlvaro da Fonseca and Isabel Pacheco - This later was the dau of Pedro de > Escobar and Margarida Pacheco (title Escobar). > > Note - margarida pacheco was the g. dau, of Gomes Pacheco, Fidalgo da Casa > Real. IMO the Rodrigues de Gouveia used the Pacheco name just because of > this Gomes Pacheco, a very illustrious figure. > > So my conjecture is that the Pacheco that the Rodrigues de Gouveia used for > two generations is this one, comes from that Gomes Pacheco. and no other. > > In a next mail we'll have a look at the Escobanms. > > Not jews, but from old Spanish families of first magnitude. > > (To be continued) > > > Miguel > > On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 2:32 PM, Cece Camara <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Guess this answers that ;-) > > Cece > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] > > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro > > Henriques > > Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 8:24 AM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia > > > > On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 1:37 PM, Fernandes, Jose < > > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Miguel, > > > After a good night's reflection (?), I won't discuss my opinion on > > > whether in the present unitary constitution of the Portuguese > > > Republic, Madeira's regional government has the power of a "state" > > > (Estado), but let's just consider that in this case ARM has taken a > > > position. Consider that in spite of the certificate saying that > > > Beatriz is a Gonçalves Leão de Chamorro, they have not incorporated > > > that when they digitalized the info. I mean that you put that name in > > > the Data base and you get nothing. That is not normal. Why did they do > > that? > > > > > > > The omnipotent and menacing shade of god-the-father! I mean probably the > > ghost of Meneses Vaz paralyzed them. So they co-opted. They compromised, > > and > > instead of her full name they just wrote Beatriz Chamorra, but they > > conceded > > the Dr,.(instead of Licenciado) to Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia. > > > > Now there was for sure an archi-famous Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues - > > never referred as de Gouveia - around 1555 and 1557. He was corregedor, ( > > corregedor da Capitania da Cidade do Funchal, Procurador das Capellas, > > Orphãos e Resíduos e fazenda, etc. com larguissimos poderes e Alçada, > > porque > > além das Corregedroias das Comarcas lhe dá a do Capitam (a do Zarco) and > > in > > short, he had more power than the "Capitam" of Madeira who naturally was > a > > Gonçalves Zarco . > > > > That corregedor became famous not only because of his actions, but > because > > he had majestic powers as no one had before him. He was "governador, > > ouvidor > > e Vedor da fazenda. He had at his service as "escrivão" and "chanceler da > > correição" Jerónimo Vieira, moço-fidalgo, and more personnel. > > Anyway during the period of time that Francisco Rodrigues had the > > government > > he ruled the three "Capitanias" of Madeira archipelago. (More than Jardim > > today!) ; -))) > > > > > > > > > So, uisnng your argument all the ARM is guaranteeing is that she is a > > > Beatriz Chamorra. > > > > > > Not only that, even more important than that, the ARM is guaranteeing > that > > Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia is "de Gouveia" and Licenciado, and > > historically speaking he is infinitely more important than Beatriz > > Chamorra. > > > > > > But one point not clarified remains. Is the famous corregedor Francisco > > Rodrigues the same as Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia? That's one of the > > major points to be cleared. As Francisco Rodrigues is quite a common name > > there could be, there could even be two Licenciados with almost the same > > name, no big deal. > > > > > > > Now, you and I, know that the possibility of another Francisco > > > Rodrigues Gouveia, Licenciado marrying a Beatriz Chamorra at this time > > > in Funchal, Madeira is highly improbable. > > > > > > > And that would be almost absolutely improbable. In that time there were > > very > > few people of both sides (Rodrigues de Gouveia and Chamorros) to have > that > > circumstance happening. > > > > > > > Therefore I agree with you but we are still at a dead's end with > beatriz. > > > > > > > It has some shades of a dead end situation. But has some vistas over > other > > possibilities. So it's not a total dead end, rather a dead end with > > openness > > and some light at the end of the end of the tunnel. > > > > > > > > > Keep exercising! > > > > > > > I will, for sure. Give it a try! > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > Miguel > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > José > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Yes, I also thought the same. It makes sense. Furthermore it's known - by Clode at least - that Pedro Chamooro married twice. Problem is: how do we validate the connection? It+s a strong conjecture, no doubt. On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 7:51 PM, Fernandes, Jose < [email protected]> wrote: > Miguel- if you are not exercising > I am thinking! What if Beatriz 's mother is Inês Gonçalves? Does that then > gives us the Gonçalves and perhaps the Leão? > It is a cold day in Toronto. Only -12 C. > > José > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto: > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Fernandes, Jose > Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 9:45 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Chamorra > > Miguel/Cecce > > There are other postings that may clear this up but let me add that > according to Vaz there were no two marriages, but it makes sense, and once > again according to Vaz our Beatriz Chamorra married to Francisco was from > the Chamorros from Santo António, thus indirectly connecting them to Pedro > Chamorro. > The problem is that this Beatriz does not seem to have any parents! > > José > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto: > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro Henriques > Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 9:32 AM > To: [email protected]; [email protected] > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Chamorra > > Cece, > > I guees you have the best Chamorro of all the cards. > > Pedro Chamorro is documented. He was "homem fidalgo, porteiro dos cativos > da > Ilha). In short a nobleman high bureaucrat. He is believed to be son of > Fernão Chamorro, Escudeiro do Infante D. Henrique. > > > Ir seems he married twice. 1. with Francisca de Barros, from the > illustrious > Barros and dau. of Diogo de Barros da Cunha and Francisca Henriques - and > this Francsica connected to one of the more mysterious and singular figures > from Madeira of all times (Of whom tehre is much talk nowadays, and of whom > books have been written). And he married a second time with Inês Gonçalves. > > probably our (José, Paulo's and mine) Chamorros are also linked to those > ones. But we have not yet been able to establish a documented firm link to > them. > > > Miguel. > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

People, people...be kinder to us novices that are trying to put these pieces together for the first time!!! So I think I understand that Isabel Ferreira de Castro (married to ??) and Ana de Castro (married to ??) are both the daughters of Dr. Diogo de Castro & Margarida Ferreira.(correct me if I'm wrong) And that Manuel de Gouveia Pacheco (married to ???) is the son of Ana de Castro and (???) And now can you tell me how any of these peoople tie in to any of the people below as I don't see any common names there? I do have a couple of the people above and a couple of the people below and am desperately trying to make this association that is so clear to the both of you;-) -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Fernandes, Jose Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 1:46 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA]Pachecos if the Rodrigues de Gouveia and João Rodrigues Escórcio was ( Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia) Miguel, It is a good story. But are you suggesting that someone married into the family? Yes, in fact Vaz says that Manuel de Gouveia Pacheco took the name of Pacheco from his mother "pois que seus primos, filhos duma tia, Isabel Ferreira Castro, irma de sua mae, tomaram também o mesmo apelido Pacheco'. His mother was Ana de Castro, and her parents and Isabel's were Dr. Diogo de Castro e Margarida Ferreira. So my friend from Alentejo, it is more than a conjecture, you are right! But you did go through a more complicated way! José -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro Henriques Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 1:52 PM To: [email protected]; [email protected] Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Pachecos if the Rodrigues de Gouveia and João Rodrigues Escórcio was ( Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia) João Rodrigues Escórcio is a key figure for understanding the emergence of the Pacheco name in the Rodrigues de Gouveia. Let us see why, 1. He appears as "testemunha" in Rui Chamorro ( son of F.co Rodrigues de Gouveua and brites CVhamorra) with Isabel Leal. 2. He appears as testamenteiro, in Gaspar Rodrigues de Gouveria (brother of Rui Chamorro) will. Testamenteiros were normally relatives. So he is a figure close to this family. Because he is relative? probably- Let's see João Rodrigues Escórcio genealogy. 1. João Rodrigues Arraes, Escudeiro FCR, An interesting Arrais because he is supposed to be the first Arrais in madeira. He wrote his "testamento" in 1517, He was the administrator of a Capela in Sintra, Portugal. je married Leonor Escórcio, dau. of our well known the Magnificent João de leiria and Isabel Eanes Escórcio. tehy had. 2. Diogo Rodrigues Escórcio (fez testamento em 1533). m. Juliana Giraldes, dau, of Gerlado Anes , and sister of Gaspar Rodrigues teixeira (who had a coat of arms for Teixeiras inm 135r). sons of Lourenço Rodrigues teixeiram and g. sons of "The Gordo." 3. João Rodrigues Escórcio m. Maria Pacheco " (Here is the Hare!), dau. of Àlvaro da Fonseca and Isabel Pacheco - This later was the dau of Pedro de Escobar and Margarida Pacheco (title Escobar). Note - margarida pacheco was the g. dau, of Gomes Pacheco, Fidalgo da Casa Real. IMO the Rodrigues de Gouveia used the Pacheco name just because of this Gomes Pacheco, a very illustrious figure. So my conjecture is that the Pacheco that the Rodrigues de Gouveia used for two generations is this one, comes from that Gomes Pacheco. and no other. In a next mail we'll have a look at the Escobanms. Not jews, but from old Spanish families of first magnitude. (To be continued) Miguel On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 2:32 PM, Cece Camara <[email protected]> wrote: > Guess this answers that ;-) > Cece > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de > Castro Henriques > Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 8:24 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia > > On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 1:37 PM, Fernandes, Jose < > [email protected]> wrote: > > > Miguel, > > After a good night's reflection (?), I won't discuss my opinion on > > whether in the present unitary constitution of the Portuguese > > Republic, Madeira's regional government has the power of a "state" > > (Estado), but let's just consider that in this case ARM has taken a > > position. Consider that in spite of the certificate saying that > > Beatriz is a Gonçalves Leão de Chamorro, they have not incorporated > > that when they digitalized the info. I mean that you put that name > > in the Data base and you get nothing. That is not normal. Why did > > they do > that? > > > > The omnipotent and menacing shade of god-the-father! I mean probably > the ghost of Meneses Vaz paralyzed them. So they co-opted. They > compromised, and instead of her full name they just wrote Beatriz > Chamorra, but they conceded the Dr,.(instead of Licenciado) to > Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia. > > Now there was for sure an archi-famous Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues > - never referred as de Gouveia - around 1555 and 1557. He was > corregedor, ( corregedor da Capitania da Cidade do Funchal, Procurador > das Capellas, Orphãos e Resíduos e fazenda, etc. com larguissimos > poderes e Alçada, porque além das Corregedroias das Comarcas lhe dá a > do Capitam (a do Zarco) and in short, he had more power than the > "Capitam" of Madeira who naturally was a Gonçalves Zarco . > > That corregedor became famous not only because of his actions, but > because he had majestic powers as no one had before him. He was > "governador, ouvidor e Vedor da fazenda. He had at his service as > "escrivão" and "chanceler da correição" Jerónimo Vieira, moço-fidalgo, > and more personnel. > Anyway during the period of time that Francisco Rodrigues had the > government he ruled the three "Capitanias" of Madeira archipelago. > (More than Jardim > today!) ; -))) > > > > > So, uisnng your argument all the ARM is guaranteeing is that she is > > a Beatriz Chamorra. > > > Not only that, even more important than that, the ARM is guaranteeing > that Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia is "de Gouveia" and Licenciado, > and historically speaking he is infinitely more important than Beatriz > Chamorra. > > > But one point not clarified remains. Is the famous corregedor > Francisco Rodrigues the same as Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia? That's > one of the major points to be cleared. As Francisco Rodrigues is quite > a common name there could be, there could even be two Licenciados with > almost the same name, no big deal. > > > > Now, you and I, know that the possibility of another Francisco > > Rodrigues Gouveia, Licenciado marrying a Beatriz Chamorra at this > > time in Funchal, Madeira is highly improbable. > > > > And that would be almost absolutely improbable. In that time there > were very few people of both sides (Rodrigues de Gouveia and > Chamorros) to have that circumstance happening. > > > > Therefore I agree with you but we are still at a dead's end with beatriz. > > > > It has some shades of a dead end situation. But has some vistas over > other possibilities. So it's not a total dead end, rather a dead end > with openness and some light at the end of the end of the tunnel. > > > > > Keep exercising! > > > > I will, for sure. Give it a try! > > > Cheers, > > Miguel > > > > > Cheers, > > José > > > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.432 / Virus Database: 270.14.119/2586 - Release Date: 01/08/10 07:35:00

Miguel, you said: >>2. Diogo Rodrigues Escórcio (fez testamento em 1533). m. Juliana Giraldes, dau, of Gerlado Anes , and sister of Gaspar Rodrigues teixeira (who had a coat of arms for Teixeiras inm 135r). sons of Lourenço Rodrigues teixeiram and g. sons of "The Gordo." I'm sorry, I'm lost again. Juliana Giraldes is the daughter of Geraldo Anes & sister of Gaspa Rodrigues Teixeira, correct? Who then exactly are the sons of Lourenco Rodrigues Teixeira and grandsons or "The Gordo"?? _____ From: Miguel de Castro Henriques [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 12:52 PM To: [email protected]; [email protected] Subject: Pachecos if the Rodrigues de Gouveia and João Rodrigues Escórcio was ( Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia) João Rodrigues Escórcio is a key figure for understanding the emergence of the Pacheco name in the Rodrigues de Gouveia. Let us see why, 1. He appears as "testemunha" in Rui Chamorro ( son of F.co Rodrigues de Gouveua and brites CVhamorra) with Isabel Leal. 2. He appears as testamenteiro, in Gaspar Rodrigues de Gouveria (brother of Rui Chamorro) will. Testamenteiros were normally relatives. So he is a figure close to this family. Because he is relative? probably- Let's see João Rodrigues Escórcio genealogy. 1. João Rodrigues Arraes, Escudeiro FCR, An interesting Arrais because he is supposed to be the first Arrais in madeira. He wrote his "testamento" in 1517, He was the administrator of a Capela in Sintra, Portugal. je married Leonor Escórcio, dau. of our well known the Magnificent João de leiria and Isabel Eanes Escórcio. tehy had. 2. Diogo Rodrigues Escórcio (fez testamento em 1533). m. Juliana Giraldes, dau, of Gerlado Anes , and sister of Gaspar Rodrigues teixeira (who had a coat of arms for Teixeiras inm 135r). sons of Lourenço Rodrigues teixeiram and g. sons of "The Gordo." 3. João Rodrigues Escórcio m. Maria Pacheco " (Here is the Hare!), dau. of Àlvaro da Fonseca and Isabel Pacheco - This later was the dau of Pedro de Escobar and Margarida Pacheco (title Escobar). Note - margarida pacheco was the g. dau, of Gomes Pacheco, Fidalgo da Casa Real. IMO the Rodrigues de Gouveia used the Pacheco name just because of this Gomes Pacheco, a very illustrious figure. So my conjecture is that the Pacheco that the Rodrigues de Gouveia used for two generations is this one, comes from that Gomes Pacheco. and no other. In a next mail we'll have a look at the Escobares. Not jews, but from old Spanish families of first magnitude. (To be continued) Miguel On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 2:32 PM, Cece Camara <[email protected]> wrote: Guess this answers that ;-) Cece -----Original Message----- From: [email protected]om [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro Henriques Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 8:24 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 1:37 PM, Fernandes, Jose < [email protected]> wrote: > Miguel, > After a good night's reflection (?), I won't discuss my opinion on > whether in the present unitary constitution of the Portuguese > Republic, Madeira's regional government has the power of a "state" > (Estado), but let's just consider that in this case ARM has taken a > position. Consider that in spite of the certificate saying that > Beatriz is a Gonçalves Leão de Chamorro, they have not incorporated > that when they digitalized the info. I mean that you put that name in > the Data base and you get nothing. That is not normal. Why did they do that? > The omnipotent and menacing shade of god-the-father! I mean probably the ghost of Meneses Vaz paralyzed them. So they co-opted. They compromised, and instead of her full name they just wrote Beatriz Chamorra, but they conceded the Dr,.(instead of Licenciado) to Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia. Now there was for sure an archi-famous Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues - never referred as de Gouveia - around 1555 and 1557. He was corregedor, ( corregedor da Capitania da Cidade do Funchal, Procurador das Capellas, Orphãos e Resíduos e fazenda, etc. com larguissimos poderes e Alçada, porque além das Corregedroias das Comarcas lhe dá a do Capitam (a do Zarco) and in short, he had more power than the "Capitam" of Madeira who naturally was a Gonçalves Zarco . That corregedor became famous not only because of his actions, but because he had majestic powers as no one had before him. He was "governador, ouvidor e Vedor da fazenda. He had at his service as "escrivão" and "chanceler da correição" Jerónimo Vieira, moço-fidalgo, and more personnel. Anyway during the period of time that Francisco Rodrigues had the government he ruled the three "Capitanias" of Madeira archipelago. (More than Jardim today!) ; -))) > So, uisnng your argument all the ARM is guaranteeing is that she is a > Beatriz Chamorra. Not only that, even more important than that, the ARM is guaranteeing that Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia is "de Gouveia" and Licenciado, and historically speaking he is infinitely more important than Beatriz Chamorra. But one point not clarified remains. Is the famous corregedor Francisco Rodrigues the same as Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia? That's one of the major points to be cleared. As Francisco Rodrigues is quite a common name there could be, there could even be two Licenciados with almost the same name, no big deal. > Now, you and I, know that the possibility of another Francisco > Rodrigues Gouveia, Licenciado marrying a Beatriz Chamorra at this time > in Funchal, Madeira is highly improbable. > And that would be almost absolutely improbable. In that time there were very few people of both sides (Rodrigues de Gouveia and Chamorros) to have that circumstance happening. > Therefore I agree with you but we are still at a dead's end with beatriz. > It has some shades of a dead end situation. But has some vistas over other possibilities. So it's not a total dead end, rather a dead end with openness and some light at the end of the end of the tunnel. > Keep exercising! > I will, for sure. Give it a try! Cheers, Miguel > Cheers, > José > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto: > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro > Henriques > Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 5:07 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia > > Mine is certified. You can ask docs. from ARM in two ways; a( as > simple photocopy . has no kegal value, B) Certified. With the official > stamp, it has legal value. It's a certified document that you may use > in any legal undertake. > > So what ARM is saying when it puts the official stamp is: we guarantee > that all that this document states is true. And that's precisely what > is a legal document about. True facts. Not forgeries. > > Pilates is really great exercise ; -)) > > Miguel > > > > > > On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 10:01 PM, Miguel de Castro Henriques < > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 9:44 PM, Fernandes, Jose < > > [email protected]> wrote: > > > >> Miguel, > >> Great arguments. However, many of the copies are not certified. > >> Does > that > >> change any of your arguments? > >> I am with you. Now Pilates class? Is this a misspelling? If not is > >> this the Pilates from Palestine? What he is doing giving classes in Portugal? > >> Wait I know. I will keep it to myself. I heard that the present > >> gov't > has > >> many spies!!!!! > >> > >> Just kidding... > >> José > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: [email protected] [mailto: > >> [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro > Henriques > >> Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 4:36 PM > >> To: [email protected] > >> Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia > >> > >> On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 7:23 PM, Fernandes, Jose < > >> [email protected]> wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >> > Miguel, > >> > I agree with you. Do you think all of this might have to do with > >> > the > >> Cunha > >> > case? > >> > >> > >> José, > >> > >> I really don't see very well the Rodrigues de Gouveia faking all > >> these documents (or asking someone to do it) to win the case > >> against the all powerful Pedro Álvares da Cunha. The documents had > >> to be checked and re~checked. Pedro Álvares da Cunha was too big a > >> fish to get swallowed > by > >> any amount of fake documents. He had the best lawyers and court > >> people > and > >> experts working for him. They would detect the slightest > >> irregularities > in > >> the papers and documents. Even better than any of us and perhaps > >> any contemporary expert. It was their world, their language, their > >> style of writing. They would be able to detect fakers and forgeries quite easily. > >> People from these days were subtle..\ Just have a look at their > >> handwriting many times elegant, precise, elaborate.and each one > >> seemed to have its personal style. Just compare to today's > >> handwriting- generally > amorphous, > >> poor, without style. > >> > >> > >> On other hand the document from which I started all my > >> considerations is from the ARM database. Now, let me tell this. The > >> ARM is a provider of legal documents. The documents we ask to ARM > >> has in its database have legal force to prove something like : our > >> being candidates to a heritage, > asking > >> for a title of nobility, asking for a coat of arms, wanting to > >> change > our > >> name and surname and proving an ancestor had that name, etc. I mean > every > >> register in the ARM is not there per chance. It had to be > >> demonstrated that it was accurate, before they included it in their > >> database. So every marriage doc. every baptismal goes through the > >> hands of experts. > Forgeries > >> are no admissible, since they are legal documents guaranteed by the > >> State.. > >> Otherwise no one would take seriously that ARM and its database. Of > >> course, even so, an extremely clever and old forgery could pass the > >> eyes of experts. > >> Though the filters are more and more accurate. I believe we are now > >> in > the > >> 2nd and third generation of experts in the ARM after its foundation. > >> Second, > >> at least, though João Cabral could be my ggfather. Moreover they > >> have a tradition of very good professionalism. So if they admit a > >> document in their database it is only after close scrutiny by > >> experts on the field.. And > for > >> scientific and legal reasons it can not be otherwise. > >> > >> > >> So we have here an interesting case. If the doc. I have mentioned > >> is a forgery, then the experts of the ARM were not able to identify > >> it. But I doubt it very strongly. What interests more a genealogist > >> are precisely the two first centuries of Madeiran documents. It's > >> there that their > attention > >> is more focused. So, i think that the document I have (the > >> photocopy of > >> it) > >> is sound and clear and moreover authenticated by ARM experts. I can > >> use > it > >> legally to prove that for instance for having a claim for using the > >> Chamorros coat of arms,. since I descend from them with only three > breaks > >> on > >> the male lineage. I won't, of course. But that's an open > >> possibility for somebody else who requires the services of the ARM > >> and finds the very > same > >> document and wants to do that precislçey that. And the ARM > >> documents > have > >> that legal force, they are decisive and final proof. That's why > >> they are authenticated, with the seal of the Government. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > One could pick sides in all of this! > >> > It is too bad that Paulo is m.i.a., for he had a strong feeling > >> > about > >> this. > >> > > >> > >> > >> Yes. He had a strong stand on all this - But I don't have his > >> particular opinion on this document. He contested others. Not this one. > >> > >> > >> > >> > It is possible that he just chose to believe Bernardo. > >> > >> > >> Yes. He is a bit fast IMO dismissing the document. > >> > >> > >> > >> > Howver, you make a good case. So what do we do now? Throw out the > >> Carvalho > >> > Pais? > >> > > >> > > >> Not yet, though I am not clinging to them specially. Half of > >> Portugal descends from the Carvalhos de Basto, from which the > >> Carvalhos pais are minor madeiran branch. > >> > >> I think we have to study where this Leam link leads. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Hope you are feeling a bit warmer. > >> > > >> > >> > >> Yeah. Just came from my Pilates class, and am feeling OK. > >> > >> > >> Miguel > >> > >> > > >> > José > >> > > >> > -----Original Message----- > >> > From: [email protected] [mailto: > >> > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro > >> Henriques > >> > Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 1:48 PM > >> > To: [email protected] > >> > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de > >> > Gouveia > >> > > >> > On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 5:21 PM, Fernandes, Jose < > >> > [email protected]> wrote: > >> > > >> > > Miguel, > >> > > I am just reading the Rodrigues de Gouveia genealogy, and on > >> > > note #8 Bernado Gomes Ferreira (?) writes that there is > >> > > acertificate of > >> marriage > >> > > for out two, but " existe-mas é como não existisse. > >> > > >> > > >> > Ah good find José. I missed it. > >> > > >> > Obscure words, he said. Anyway he ought to refer to it with more > >> precision, > >> > IMO. And I think that the document is valid, and was all written > >> > by > the > >> > hand > >> > of Vicente Afonso, cura. > >> > > >> > Now there is no doubt for me that it was written by the Cura > >> > Vicente Afonso. > >> > And signed, among others by João Rodrigues Escórcio, who later > >> > acted > as > >> > testamenteiro of the will of F.co Rodrigues de Gouveia, thus > confirming > >> > their relationship. > >> > > >> > However I don't know if Menses Vaz is referring the same document. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > ..E uma cousa inautêntica" and that's why in Bernardo's opinion > >> > > Vaz > >> did > >> > not > >> > > pay attention to it. What do you think of that? > >> > > > >> > > >> > I think that Menses Vaz had a misfired shot. The document seems > >> > to me "cousa autêntica". It would perhaps alter Menses Vaz > >> > genealogy of the > Carvalho > >> > Pais > >> > (as far as beatriz Chamorra is regarded), so the horrified > >> > magister > >> send > >> > the document to hell, without having the trouble to explain why. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > I guess I am having problems with an Italian connection!!! > >> > > > >> > > >> > mmmm. Italian connections are always problematic ; -))) > >> > > >> > > >> > Miguel > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > José > >> > > > >> > > -----Original Message----- > >> > > From: [email protected] [mailto: > >> > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro > >> > Henriques > >> > > Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 11:43 AM > >> > > To: [email protected] > >> > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de > >> > > Gouveia > >> > > > >> > > On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 4:12 PM, Fernandes, Jose < > >> > > [email protected]> wrote: > >> > > > >> > > > Miguel, > >> > > > Interesting that the family, as you know, uses Pacheco > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > Yes, for two generations they use Gouveia Pacheco. And with > >> > > that > name > >> > they > >> > > administer the "Capela" from the morgadio established by > >> > > Rodrigo > Anes > >> and > >> > > Isabel Pires.. > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > and only much later goes back to the Rodrigues de Gouveia. > >> > > > That is > >> > > somewhat > >> > > > unusual, unless the other names were more powerful. > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > To add to Beatriz's parents' confusion, please remember that > >> > > > later > a > >> > > Brites > >> > > > Chamorra wins that famous name trial re: Cunha because her > ancestors > >> > were > >> > > Da > >> > > > Cunha from the Carvalho Pais. So at some time we have to deal > >> > > > with > >> that > >> > > > side. > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > That famous trial is a powerful piece. As you know they won > >> > > against > D. > >> > > Pedro > >> > > Álvares da Cunha, a grandee of the the Kingdom, Trinchante-Mor > >> > > da > Casa > >> > > Real, > >> > > (he was also Governor of Madeira), from the archi-noble Cunhas > >> > > da > >> Tábua. > >> > So > >> > > they probably had access to some documentation that meanwhile > >> > > was > >> lost. > >> > > Anyway, nice to watch, the obscure Rodrigues de Gouveia > >> > > defeating > that > >> > Big > >> > > Fish. > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > Miguel, I real believe that Vaz was not aware of the marriage > >> > > > in > Sé. > >> In > >> > > the > >> > > > genealogy, he says that Francisco married around 1540 or > >> > > > later. So > >> he > >> > > wasn't > >> > > > aware of this certificate or if he was he dismissed it. > >> > > > > >> > > > I was surprised to see on RTPi that Setubal today was going > >> > > > colder > >> than > >> > > the > >> > > > interior! > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > Well, I didn't know about that. For the moment it is a sunny > >> > > sunny > >> day, > >> > > cold > >> > > as ice. > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > I am on my 3d cup of steaming tea. One has to drink it fast > otherwise > >> it > >> > > gets cold in no time at all. > >> > > > >> > > > > >> > > > José > >> > > > > >> > > > -----Original Message----- > >> > > > From: [email protected] [mailto: > >> > > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de > >> > > > Castro > >> > > Henriques > >> > > > Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 10:56 AM > >> > > > To: [email protected] > >> > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de > Gouveia > >> > > > > >> > > > José, > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > Miguel, > >> > > > > Congratulations on this find! I believe you and I (among > >> > > > > others) > >> > share > >> > > > this > >> > > > > family. > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > Thanks. I'm just amazed how this escaped the genealogists. > >> > > > Were > >> they > >> > > > kindly > >> > > > leaving something for us to discover? ; -) > >> > > > > >> > > > Yes, I have at least two or three lines to our Gaspar Rodrigues. > >> > > > > >> > > > Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia is my great (12) grandfather > >> > > > and is > >> > though > >> > > > > his son Gaspar that the line continues until our marriage > >> > > > > with > >> > > > Escolástica > >> > > > > de Bettencourt. > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > Yes, the "Morgadinha" ; -) Fortunately I downloaded all the > >> Rodrigues > >> > de > >> > > > Gouveia > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > I suspect you don't have the original marriage certificate > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > I have a photocopy of the original. (The priest had a > >> > > > magnificent handwriting, clear, elegant, incisive). The > >> > > > addition of beatriz > glz > >> de > >> > > leam > >> > > > (no capital letters) > >> > > > is his, no doubt. > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > and that if you did, would you be able to scan it and send > >> > > > > it to > >> my > >> > > > > personal account. > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > For the moment I am planning to buy a scanner. The old one is > kaput. > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > Otherwise, I will be ordering the certificate. > >> > > > > I also have the Vaz geneology, where I got most of my > information, > >> > and > >> > > I > >> > > > > share your amazement that they did not seem to be aware of > >> > > > > the > >> Leão > >> > > > > connection. > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > It escaped them. I can't see another explanation. It has the > >> > > > clues > >> to > >> > > find > >> > > > out who were Beatriz Gonçalves de Leam de Chamorro's parents. > >> > > > She > >> must > >> > > be > >> > > > one of the persons from that era with the longest name. > >> > > > Trivial as > >> it > >> > is > >> > > > today for a Portuguese to have 4 names, it wasn't in those times. > >> > > > It would have been signaled. > >> > > > Also there is the fact that she's called "de Chamorra". > >> > > > Unusual > >> among > >> > the > >> > > > Chamorras who never used that "de" > >> > > > > >> > > > But what do we have here? First the son of Francisco > >> > > > Rodrigues de > >> > Gouveia > >> > > > and Beatriz Chamorra, is Rui Chamorro, Almost as a rule the > >> > > > sons > >> used > >> > > their > >> > > > father's name. Not in this case. What can it mean? It means > >> > > > that > the > >> > > > Chamorro name was more important than the Rodrigues de > >> > > > Gouveia. So > >> this > >> > > > allows us to conjecture that their Chamorro was linked with > >> > > > the > top > >> > > > Chamorros, descendants of the "Porteiro dos cativos", Pedro > >> Chamorro, > >> > > FCR. > >> > > > Otherwise he would have used, as Gapsar did, the Rodrigues de > >> Gouveia > >> > > name. > >> > > > Though there are no strict rules. And everything is possible > >> > > > as > >> regards > >> > > use > >> > > > of names of the parents. > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > You don't have Brites parents? > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > No. In the Carvalho Pais title our Brites Chamorra is > >> > > > presented as > >> dau. > >> > > of > >> > > > Brites Chamorra married to a Carvalho Pais. It was the > >> > > > respectable > >> > > Meneses > >> > > > Vaz who wrote that title. However due to new data it's, to > >> > > > say the > >> > least, > >> > > > questionable. > >> > > > > >> > > > But now with the Gonçalves de Leam clue we're forced to admit > >> > > > that > >> she > >> > > was > >> > > > the dau, of a Gonçalves de Leam and a Chamorra. Remember in > >> > > > that > >> time > >> > the > >> > > > first name was the father's, the second the mother's name. > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > All we can say it that we added more Italian blood, the Leam > >> (Leone?) > >> > to > >> > > > our > >> > > > tree. > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > They were not available on the Vaz list. So, Vaz may not > >> > > > > have > >> known. > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > That's what surprises me. If he knew he did not show it. If > >> > > > he did > >> not > >> > > show > >> > > > it but he knew it, well....But, genealogically speaking, he > >> > > > had > too. > >> > It's > >> > > > too fundamental a clue to be discarded. Anyway for Vaz a > >> > > > bastard > >> line > >> > was > >> > > > not a matter of shame, or something to hide (like HHN did > >> sometimes). > >> > > > Furthermore the Leam were "good" families, top bourgeoisie. > perhaps > >> > even > >> > > > descendants of Italian nobility, They were linked to the Spínolas. > >> And > >> > > the > >> > > > Spínolas were one of the top Madeiran families. So this Leam > >> > > > link > >> that > >> > > > Beatriz undoubtedly carries "had" perforce to be explored. > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > Bastard line? > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > I don't think so.Furthermore with such a big name. > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > The Alentejo cold does help your research! > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > Thanks Siberian cold on the way, "Vaga de frio monumental" > >> > Scandianavian > >> > > > countries 41 degrees below zero (Fahrenheit scale). > >> > > > Temperatures > >> below > >> > > zero > >> > > > in Portugal interior. handle me that rum, or vodka or > >> > > > whatever, > >> please! > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > Miguel > >> > > > > >> > > > José > >> > > > > > >> > > > > -----Original Message----- > >> > > > > From: [email protected] [mailto: > >> > > > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de > >> > > > > Castro > >> > > > Henriques > >> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2010 7:46 PM > >> > > > > To: [email protected] > >> > > > > Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de > >> > > > > Gouveia > >> > > > > > >> > > > > I found an old marriage register to which I did not > >> > > > > concede > much > >> > > > > importance > >> > > > > at the time. Now I see that it connects with a discussion > >> > > > > about > >> F.co > >> > > > > Rodrigues de Gouveia we had here a year ago or so. Was he > >> Licenciado > >> > or > >> > > > > not? > >> > > > > Was it a forgery? (his marriage document, as Paulo contended). > >> Well, > >> > it > >> > > > > seems that it was not. Let's see why. > >> > > > > > >> > > > > Anyway here we go. It's the marriage certificate of Isabel > >> > > > > Leal > m. > >> > Rui > >> > > > > Chamorro, (1577, Sé do Funchal). > >> > > > > > >> > > > > She is the dau, of F.co da Costa de Siqueira and Leonor > Rodrigues. > >> > (The > >> > > > > Costa de Siqueira were noble, and are relatively well known). > Him, > >> > Rui > >> > > > > Chamorro, son of Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia > >> (already > >> > > dead) > >> > > > > and his wife - and here is the surprise ..*.Beatriz > >> > > > > Gonçalves de > >> Leam > >> > > de > >> > > > > Chamorra !!* > >> > > > > > >> > > > > The document is original, The words "Gonçalves de Leam de" > >> > > > > were > >> added > >> > > > with > >> > > > > the very same writing of the priest who wrote the document > >> > > > > (I > have > >> no > >> > > > doubt > >> > > > > about it. It was the priest. It's not an added and clever > forgery, > >> i > >> > > bet > >> > > > > strongly on that). Anyway It's a name extraodinarily long > >> > > > > for > that > >> > > time. > >> > > > > And > >> > > > > containing explosive and brand new information. > >> > > > > > >> > > > > The Leão were from Italian origin, merchants. "Mercadores > >> > > > > do > >> trauto > >> > do > >> > > > > assucar" (They came very early to Madeira, around 1472). > >> > > > > They > >> > > established > >> > > > > themselves in Funchal.They were later and, no surprisingly, > >> connected > >> > > by > >> > > > > marriage with the Spínolas.. They were upper bourgeoisie, > >> > > > > at > >> least. > >> > > > > A Licenciado Diogo de Leão existed around that time. > >> > > > > Probably a > >> > > relative? > >> > > > > > >> > > > > In this document we have evidence that a Licenciado > >> > > > > Francisco > >> > Rodrigues > >> > > > de > >> > > > > Gouveia truly existed. So in face of this document we are > >> > > > > forced > >> to > >> > say > >> > > > he > >> > > > > is documented and his full name was truly Francisco > >> > > > > Rodrigues de > >> > > Gouveia. > >> > > > > Now he was supposed to be married to a just Brites Chamorra > >> > > > > by > >> > several > >> > > > > leading genealogists (Meneses Vaz included) > >> > > > > > >> > > > > Here from ARM database: Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia, Dr. > >> > > > > Beatriz > >> > > > > Chamorra Sé 1539 46 7 v.º > >> > > > > > >> > > > > But how come no one mentioned the "Gonçalves de Leam" of > >> > > > > Beatriz > >> > > > Chamorra? > >> > > > > It was mandatory! Because it's an extremely interesting > >> > > > > and > >> central > >> > > > detail > >> > > > > which could lead to a connection, still unknown , between > >> > > > > the > Leão > >> > and > >> > > > the > >> > > > > Chamorros. What is said here is that it (that connection) > >> blatantly > >> > > > > existed. > >> > > > > This Chamorra had Leam (Leão) blood. That no genealogist > >> > > > > said it > >> > > before. > >> > > > > And > >> > > > > that, just amazes me. > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > The witness were João Rodrigues Escórcio - well known character. > >> Joam > >> > > > > Carvalho. Pedro Feo (Feio) and Francisco Jorge. All the > >> > > > > witness > as > >> is > >> > > > > fitting for the marriage of a Licenciado could read and write. > >> > > > > > >> > > > > I think Joam Carvalho was a judge. > >> > > > > > >> > > > > Anyway all this is really groovy and juicy. > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > I leave here this info.because I think very strange that > >> > > > > none of > >> the > >> > > > > leading > >> > > > > genealogists (of reference, I know and studied almost them > >> > > > > all > but > >> I > >> > > > won't > >> > > > > quote all their names) referred it. Especially those who > >> > > > > wrote > >> the > >> > > > > Rodrigues de Gouveia title as well as the Lopes Esteves > >> > > > > title > >> (patent > >> > > in > >> > > > > the > >> > > > > old and regreted NESOS). Had they seen it they were "condemned" > to > >> > > refer > >> > > > > this Beatriz Gonçalves de Leam de Chamorra. They would have > >> > > > > been > >> as > >> > > > > stupefied as I am. Did this document eluded them? I don't > believe > >> > that > >> > > > > having seen it they would discard it,. They were too > knowledgeable > >> to > >> > > do > >> > > > > it. > >> > > > > Besides it has a promising discovery adventure appended to it. > So > >> I > >> > > have > >> > > > to > >> > > > > concede that this document that I got pretty easily escaped > their > >> > > > > attention, > >> > > > > or was stuck in an old pile behind a desk or something at > >> > > > > their > >> time. > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > Of course this interests half Madeira, since half Madeira > descends > >> > from > >> > > > the > >> > > > > Rodrigues de Gouveia. > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > Cheers, > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > Miguel > >> > > > > > >> > > > > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the > >> > > > > list, please send an email to > >> > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > >> without > >> > > the > >> > > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the > >> > > > > list, please send an email to > >> > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > >> without > >> > > the > >> > > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, > >> > > > please send an email to [email protected] with > >> > > > the word 'unsubscribe' > >> without > >> > the > >> > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, > >> > > > please send an email to [email protected] with > >> > > > the word 'unsubscribe' > >> without > >> > the > >> > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, > >> > > please send an email to [email protected] with > >> > > the word 'unsubscribe' > without > >> the > >> > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, > >> > > please send an email to [email protected] with > >> > > the word 'unsubscribe' > without > >> the > >> > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > > > >> > > >> > ------------------------------- > >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > >> > without > >> the > >> > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > > >> > > >> > ------------------------------- > >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > >> > without > >> the > >> > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > > >> > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > >> without > the > >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > >> without > the > >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.432 / Virus Database: 270.14.119/2586 - Release Date: 01/07/10 19:35:00 ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.432 / Virus Database: 270.14.119/2586 - Release Date: 01/08/10 07:35:00

Jose, You said: "By the way, the children for this couple are: Pedro Chamorro da Cunha, Paio Rodrigues Pais, Helena Pais, Ines Pais, Brites Chamoora who marries our Francisco". Who are you speaking of when you say "this couple"? Because I show all different names for the children of Pedro Chamorro and Francisca de Barros. Ana de Barros, Aldonca de Barros, Barbara de Barros (x2) & Leonor Chamorro. cece -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Fernandes, Jose Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 8:15 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Chamorra And cecce...these are parents to our Brites Chamorra who marries Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia....if Miguel is not right about the italian connection...! By the way according to Vaz Beatriz Chamorra(Brites) is daughter of Pedro Chamorro and Ines Alvares or Gonçalves or perhaps of Francisca de Barros. You take your pick. By the way, the children for this couple are: Pedro Chamorro da Cunha, Paio Rodrigues Pais, Helena Pais, Ines Pais, Brites Chamoora who marries our Francisco. Now all of this according to the venerable Cónego Vaz! Do you want more confusion? In her will Beatriz Chamorra married to Diogo Pais is said not to have mentioned Brites married to Francisco. Was she her daughter and if not, MIGUEL, this may mean that she was not and therefore Beatriz married to Francisco is a Leão? What do you think of that? Anyone else out there confused? José -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Fernandes, Jose Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 8:58 AM To: [email protected]; [email protected] Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Chamorra Well Cecce your Chamorro is also illustrious and mine also! These were parents to Brites Chamorra who led that famous fight and won for the Cunha name. Don't know who Pedro's parents are, other than he is a Chamorro. Barros was and continues to be a "good" name. José -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Cece Camara Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 7:06 AM To: [email protected] Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Chamorra I do not have all the illustrous Chamorras being spoken about as of late...yet. However I do have one - a Pedro Chamorra who married Francisca de Barros abt 1520-1530 my guess. Franciscas parents were Diogo de Barros and Francisca Henriques. I do not know who this Pedro Chamorro's parents are - can anyone tell me by chance? My only other Chamorro is this Pedro & Francisca's daughter, Leonora Chamorro who married Tristão de Barros of Rui de Barros and Macêdo(?). Rui de Barros and Diogo de Barros (first paragragh) were brothers and sons of Pedro Goncalves & Isabel de Barros (again more sons taking their mother's name because...???) Cece ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.432 / Virus Database: 270.14.119/2586 - Release Date: 01/08/10 07:35:00

João Rodrigues Escórcio is a key figure for understanding the emergence of the Pacheco name in the Rodrigues de Gouveia. Let us see why, 1. He appears as "testemunha" in Rui Chamorro ( son of F.co Rodrigues de Gouveua and brites CVhamorra) with Isabel Leal. 2. He appears as testamenteiro, in Gaspar Rodrigues de Gouveria (brother of Rui Chamorro) will. Testamenteiros were normally relatives. So he is a figure close to this family. Because he is relative? probably- Let's see João Rodrigues Escórcio genealogy. 1. João Rodrigues Arraes, Escudeiro FCR, An interesting Arrais because he is supposed to be the first Arrais in madeira. He wrote his "testamento" in 1517, He was the administrator of a Capela in Sintra, Portugal. je married Leonor Escórcio, dau. of our well known the Magnificent João de leiria and Isabel Eanes Escórcio. tehy had. 2. Diogo Rodrigues Escórcio (fez testamento em 1533). m. Juliana Giraldes, dau, of Gerlado Anes , and sister of Gaspar Rodrigues teixeira (who had a coat of arms for Teixeiras inm 135r). sons of Lourenço Rodrigues teixeiram and g. sons of "The Gordo." 3. João Rodrigues Escórcio m. Maria Pacheco " (Here is the Hare!), dau. of Àlvaro da Fonseca and Isabel Pacheco - This later was the dau of Pedro de Escobar and Margarida Pacheco (title Escobar). Note - margarida pacheco was the g. dau, of Gomes Pacheco, Fidalgo da Casa Real. IMO the Rodrigues de Gouveia used the Pacheco name just because of this Gomes Pacheco, a very illustrious figure. So my conjecture is that the Pacheco that the Rodrigues de Gouveia used for two generations is this one, comes from that Gomes Pacheco. and no other. In a next mail we'll have a look at the Escobares. Not jews, but from old Spanish families of first magnitude. (To be continued) Miguel On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 2:32 PM, Cece Camara <[email protected]> wrote: > Guess this answers that ;-) > Cece > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro > Henriques > Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 8:24 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia > > On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 1:37 PM, Fernandes, Jose < > [email protected]> wrote: > > > Miguel, > > After a good night's reflection (?), I won't discuss my opinion on > > whether in the present unitary constitution of the Portuguese > > Republic, Madeira's regional government has the power of a "state" > > (Estado), but let's just consider that in this case ARM has taken a > > position. Consider that in spite of the certificate saying that > > Beatriz is a Gonçalves Leão de Chamorro, they have not incorporated > > that when they digitalized the info. I mean that you put that name in > > the Data base and you get nothing. That is not normal. Why did they do > that? > > > > The omnipotent and menacing shade of god-the-father! I mean probably the > ghost of Meneses Vaz paralyzed them. So they co-opted. They compromised, > and > instead of her full name they just wrote Beatriz Chamorra, but they > conceded > the Dr,.(instead of Licenciado) to Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia. > > Now there was for sure an archi-famous Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues - > never referred as de Gouveia - around 1555 and 1557. He was corregedor, ( > corregedor da Capitania da Cidade do Funchal, Procurador das Capellas, > Orphãos e Resíduos e fazenda, etc. com larguissimos poderes e Alçada, > porque > além das Corregedroias das Comarcas lhe dá a do Capitam (a do Zarco) and > in > short, he had more power than the "Capitam" of Madeira who naturally was a > Gonçalves Zarco . > > That corregedor became famous not only because of his actions, but because > he had majestic powers as no one had before him. He was "governador, > ouvidor > e Vedor da fazenda. He had at his service as "escrivão" and "chanceler da > correição" Jerónimo Vieira, moço-fidalgo, and more personnel. > Anyway during the period of time that Francisco Rodrigues had the > government > he ruled the three "Capitanias" of Madeira archipelago. (More than Jardim > today!) ; -))) > > > > > So, uisnng your argument all the ARM is guaranteeing is that she is a > > Beatriz Chamorra. > > > Not only that, even more important than that, the ARM is guaranteeing that > Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia is "de Gouveia" and Licenciado, and > historically speaking he is infinitely more important than Beatriz > Chamorra. > > > But one point not clarified remains. Is the famous corregedor Francisco > Rodrigues the same as Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia? That's one of the > major points to be cleared. As Francisco Rodrigues is quite a common name > there could be, there could even be two Licenciados with almost the same > name, no big deal. > > > > Now, you and I, know that the possibility of another Francisco > > Rodrigues Gouveia, Licenciado marrying a Beatriz Chamorra at this time > > in Funchal, Madeira is highly improbable. > > > > And that would be almost absolutely improbable. In that time there were > very > few people of both sides (Rodrigues de Gouveia and Chamorros) to have that > circumstance happening. > > > > Therefore I agree with you but we are still at a dead's end with beatriz. > > > > It has some shades of a dead end situation. But has some vistas over other > possibilities. So it's not a total dead end, rather a dead end with > openness > and some light at the end of the end of the tunnel. > > > > > Keep exercising! > > > > I will, for sure. Give it a try! > > > Cheers, > > Miguel > > > > > Cheers, > > José > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: [email protected] [mailto: > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro > > Henriques > > Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 5:07 PM > > To: [email protected] > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia > > > > Mine is certified. You can ask docs. from ARM in two ways; a( as > > simple photocopy . has no kegal value, B) Certified. With the official > > stamp, it has legal value. It's a certified document that you may use > > in any legal undertake. > > > > So what ARM is saying when it puts the official stamp is: we guarantee > > that all that this document states is true. And that's precisely what > > is a legal document about. True facts. Not forgeries. > > > > Pilates is really great exercise ; -)) > > > > Miguel > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 10:01 PM, Miguel de Castro Henriques < > > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 9:44 PM, Fernandes, Jose < > > > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > >> Miguel, > > >> Great arguments. However, many of the copies are not certified. > > >> Does > > that > > >> change any of your arguments? > > >> I am with you. Now Pilates class? Is this a misspelling? If not is > > >> this the Pilates from Palestine? What he is doing giving classes in > Portugal? > > >> Wait I know. I will keep it to myself. I heard that the present > > >> gov't > > has > > >> many spies!!!!! > > >> > > >> Just kidding... > > >> José > > >> > > >> -----Original Message----- > > >> From: [email protected] [mailto: > > >> [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro > > Henriques > > >> Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 4:36 PM > > >> To: [email protected] > > >> Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia > > >> > > >> On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 7:23 PM, Fernandes, Jose < > > >> [email protected]> wrote: > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Miguel, > > >> > I agree with you. Do you think all of this might have to do with > > >> > the > > >> Cunha > > >> > case? > > >> > > >> > > >> José, > > >> > > >> I really don't see very well the Rodrigues de Gouveia faking all > > >> these documents (or asking someone to do it) to win the case > > >> against the all powerful Pedro Álvares da Cunha. The documents had > > >> to be checked and re~checked. Pedro Álvares da Cunha was too big a > > >> fish to get swallowed > > by > > >> any amount of fake documents. He had the best lawyers and court > > >> people > > and > > >> experts working for him. They would detect the slightest > > >> irregularities > > in > > >> the papers and documents. Even better than any of us and perhaps > > >> any contemporary expert. It was their world, their language, their > > >> style of writing. They would be able to detect fakers and forgeries > quite easily. > > >> People from these days were subtle..\ Just have a look at their > > >> handwriting many times elegant, precise, elaborate.and each one > > >> seemed to have its personal style. Just compare to today's > > >> handwriting- generally > > amorphous, > > >> poor, without style. > > >> > > >> > > >> On other hand the document from which I started all my > > >> considerations is from the ARM database. Now, let me tell this. The > > >> ARM is a provider of legal documents. The documents we ask to ARM > > >> has in its database have legal force to prove something like : our > > >> being candidates to a heritage, > > asking > > >> for a title of nobility, asking for a coat of arms, wanting to > > >> change > > our > > >> name and surname and proving an ancestor had that name, etc. I mean > > every > > >> register in the ARM is not there per chance. It had to be > > >> demonstrated that it was accurate, before they included it in their > > >> database. So every marriage doc. every baptismal goes through the > > >> hands of experts. > > Forgeries > > >> are no admissible, since they are legal documents guaranteed by the > > >> State.. > > >> Otherwise no one would take seriously that ARM and its database. Of > > >> course, even so, an extremely clever and old forgery could pass the > > >> eyes of experts. > > >> Though the filters are more and more accurate. I believe we are now > > >> in > > the > > >> 2nd and third generation of experts in the ARM after its foundation. > > >> Second, > > >> at least, though João Cabral could be my ggfather. Moreover they > > >> have a tradition of very good professionalism. So if they admit a > > >> document in their database it is only after close scrutiny by > > >> experts on the field.. And > > for > > >> scientific and legal reasons it can not be otherwise. > > >> > > >> > > >> So we have here an interesting case. If the doc. I have mentioned > > >> is a forgery, then the experts of the ARM were not able to identify > > >> it. But I doubt it very strongly. What interests more a genealogist > > >> are precisely the two first centuries of Madeiran documents. It's > > >> there that their > > attention > > >> is more focused. So, i think that the document I have (the > > >> photocopy of > > >> it) > > >> is sound and clear and moreover authenticated by ARM experts. I can > > >> use > > it > > >> legally to prove that for instance for having a claim for using the > > >> Chamorros coat of arms,. since I descend from them with only three > > breaks > > >> on > > >> the male lineage. I won't, of course. But that's an open > > >> possibility for somebody else who requires the services of the ARM > > >> and finds the very > > same > > >> document and wants to do that precislçey that. And the ARM > > >> documents > > have > > >> that legal force, they are decisive and final proof. That's why > > >> they are authenticated, with the seal of the Government. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > One could pick sides in all of this! > > >> > It is too bad that Paulo is m.i.a., for he had a strong feeling > > >> > about > > >> this. > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> Yes. He had a strong stand on all this - But I don't have his > > >> particular opinion on this document. He contested others. Not this > one. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > It is possible that he just chose to believe Bernardo. > > >> > > >> > > >> Yes. He is a bit fast IMO dismissing the document. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Howver, you make a good case. So what do we do now? Throw out the > > >> Carvalho > > >> > Pais? > > >> > > > >> > > > >> Not yet, though I am not clinging to them specially. Half of > > >> Portugal descends from the Carvalhos de Basto, from which the > > >> Carvalhos pais are minor madeiran branch. > > >> > > >> I think we have to study where this Leam link leads. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Hope you are feeling a bit warmer. > > >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> Yeah. Just came from my Pilates class, and am feeling OK. > > >> > > >> > > >> Miguel > > >> > > >> > > > >> > José > > >> > > > >> > -----Original Message----- > > >> > From: [email protected] [mailto: > > >> > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro > > >> Henriques > > >> > Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 1:48 PM > > >> > To: [email protected] > > >> > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de > > >> > Gouveia > > >> > > > >> > On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 5:21 PM, Fernandes, Jose < > > >> > [email protected]> wrote: > > >> > > > >> > > Miguel, > > >> > > I am just reading the Rodrigues de Gouveia genealogy, and on > > >> > > note #8 Bernado Gomes Ferreira (?) writes that there is > > >> > > acertificate of > > >> marriage > > >> > > for out two, but " existe-mas é como não existisse. > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > Ah good find José. I missed it. > > >> > > > >> > Obscure words, he said. Anyway he ought to refer to it with more > > >> precision, > > >> > IMO. And I think that the document is valid, and was all written > > >> > by > > the > > >> > hand > > >> > of Vicente Afonso, cura. > > >> > > > >> > Now there is no doubt for me that it was written by the Cura > > >> > Vicente Afonso. > > >> > And signed, among others by João Rodrigues Escórcio, who later > > >> > acted > > as > > >> > testamenteiro of the will of F.co Rodrigues de Gouveia, thus > > confirming > > >> > their relationship. > > >> > > > >> > However I don't know if Menses Vaz is referring the same document. > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > ..E uma cousa inautêntica" and that's why in Bernardo's opinion > > >> > > Vaz > > >> did > > >> > not > > >> > > pay attention to it. What do you think of that? > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > I think that Menses Vaz had a misfired shot. The document seems > > >> > to me "cousa autêntica". It would perhaps alter Menses Vaz > > >> > genealogy of the > > Carvalho > > >> > Pais > > >> > (as far as beatriz Chamorra is regarded), so the horrified > > >> > magister > > >> send > > >> > the document to hell, without having the trouble to explain why. > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > I guess I am having problems with an Italian connection!!! > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > mmmm. Italian connections are always problematic ; -))) > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > Miguel > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > José > > >> > > > > >> > > -----Original Message----- > > >> > > From: [email protected] [mailto: > > >> > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro > > >> > Henriques > > >> > > Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 11:43 AM > > >> > > To: [email protected] > > >> > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de > > >> > > Gouveia > > >> > > > > >> > > On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 4:12 PM, Fernandes, Jose < > > >> > > [email protected]> wrote: > > >> > > > > >> > > > Miguel, > > >> > > > Interesting that the family, as you know, uses Pacheco > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > Yes, for two generations they use Gouveia Pacheco. And with > > >> > > that > > name > > >> > they > > >> > > administer the "Capela" from the morgadio established by > > >> > > Rodrigo > > Anes > > >> and > > >> > > Isabel Pires.. > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > and only much later goes back to the Rodrigues de Gouveia. > > >> > > > That is > > >> > > somewhat > > >> > > > unusual, unless the other names were more powerful. > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > To add to Beatriz's parents' confusion, please remember that > > >> > > > later > > a > > >> > > Brites > > >> > > > Chamorra wins that famous name trial re: Cunha because her > > ancestors > > >> > were > > >> > > Da > > >> > > > Cunha from the Carvalho Pais. So at some time we have to deal > > >> > > > with > > >> that > > >> > > > side. > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > That famous trial is a powerful piece. As you know they won > > >> > > against > > D. > > >> > > Pedro > > >> > > Álvares da Cunha, a grandee of the the Kingdom, Trinchante-Mor > > >> > > da > > Casa > > >> > > Real, > > >> > > (he was also Governor of Madeira), from the archi-noble Cunhas > > >> > > da > > >> Tábua. > > >> > So > > >> > > they probably had access to some documentation that meanwhile > > >> > > was > > >> lost. > > >> > > Anyway, nice to watch, the obscure Rodrigues de Gouveia > > >> > > defeating > > that > > >> > Big > > >> > > Fish. > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > Miguel, I real believe that Vaz was not aware of the marriage > > >> > > > in > > Sé. > > >> In > > >> > > the > > >> > > > genealogy, he says that Francisco married around 1540 or > > >> > > > later. So > > >> he > > >> > > wasn't > > >> > > > aware of this certificate or if he was he dismissed it. > > >> > > > > > >> > > > I was surprised to see on RTPi that Setubal today was going > > >> > > > colder > > >> than > > >> > > the > > >> > > > interior! > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > Well, I didn't know about that. For the moment it is a sunny > > >> > > sunny > > >> day, > > >> > > cold > > >> > > as ice. > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > I am on my 3d cup of steaming tea. One has to drink it fast > > otherwise > > >> it > > >> > > gets cold in no time at all. > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > José > > >> > > > > > >> > > > -----Original Message----- > > >> > > > From: [email protected] [mailto: > > >> > > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de > > >> > > > Castro > > >> > > Henriques > > >> > > > Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 10:56 AM > > >> > > > To: [email protected] > > >> > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de > > Gouveia > > >> > > > > > >> > > > José, > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > Miguel, > > >> > > > > Congratulations on this find! I believe you and I (among > > >> > > > > others) > > >> > share > > >> > > > this > > >> > > > > family. > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > Thanks. I'm just amazed how this escaped the genealogists. > > >> > > > Were > > >> they > > >> > > > kindly > > >> > > > leaving something for us to discover? ; -) > > >> > > > > > >> > > > Yes, I have at least two or three lines to our Gaspar Rodrigues. > > >> > > > > > >> > > > Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia is my great (12) grandfather > > >> > > > and is > > >> > though > > >> > > > > his son Gaspar that the line continues until our marriage > > >> > > > > with > > >> > > > Escolástica > > >> > > > > de Bettencourt. > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > Yes, the "Morgadinha" ; -) Fortunately I downloaded all the > > >> Rodrigues > > >> > de > > >> > > > Gouveia > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > I suspect you don't have the original marriage certificate > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > I have a photocopy of the original. (The priest had a > > >> > > > magnificent handwriting, clear, elegant, incisive). The > > >> > > > addition of beatriz > > glz > > >> de > > >> > > leam > > >> > > > (no capital letters) > > >> > > > is his, no doubt. > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > and that if you did, would you be able to scan it and send > > >> > > > > it to > > >> my > > >> > > > > personal account. > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > For the moment I am planning to buy a scanner. The old one is > > kaput. > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > Otherwise, I will be ordering the certificate. > > >> > > > > I also have the Vaz geneology, where I got most of my > > information, > > >> > and > > >> > > I > > >> > > > > share your amazement that they did not seem to be aware of > > >> > > > > the > > >> Leão > > >> > > > > connection. > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > It escaped them. I can't see another explanation. It has the > > >> > > > clues > > >> to > > >> > > find > > >> > > > out who were Beatriz Gonçalves de Leam de Chamorro's parents. > > >> > > > She > > >> must > > >> > > be > > >> > > > one of the persons from that era with the longest name. > > >> > > > Trivial as > > >> it > > >> > is > > >> > > > today for a Portuguese to have 4 names, it wasn't in those > times. > > >> > > > It would have been signaled. > > >> > > > Also there is the fact that she's called "de Chamorra". > > >> > > > Unusual > > >> among > > >> > the > > >> > > > Chamorras who never used that "de" > > >> > > > > > >> > > > But what do we have here? First the son of Francisco > > >> > > > Rodrigues de > > >> > Gouveia > > >> > > > and Beatriz Chamorra, is Rui Chamorro, Almost as a rule the > > >> > > > sons > > >> used > > >> > > their > > >> > > > father's name. Not in this case. What can it mean? It means > > >> > > > that > > the > > >> > > > Chamorro name was more important than the Rodrigues de > > >> > > > Gouveia. So > > >> this > > >> > > > allows us to conjecture that their Chamorro was linked with > > >> > > > the > > top > > >> > > > Chamorros, descendants of the "Porteiro dos cativos", Pedro > > >> Chamorro, > > >> > > FCR. > > >> > > > Otherwise he would have used, as Gapsar did, the Rodrigues de > > >> Gouveia > > >> > > name. > > >> > > > Though there are no strict rules. And everything is possible > > >> > > > as > > >> regards > > >> > > use > > >> > > > of names of the parents. > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > You don't have Brites parents? > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > No. In the Carvalho Pais title our Brites Chamorra is > > >> > > > presented as > > >> dau. > > >> > > of > > >> > > > Brites Chamorra married to a Carvalho Pais. It was the > > >> > > > respectable > > >> > > Meneses > > >> > > > Vaz who wrote that title. However due to new data it's, to > > >> > > > say the > > >> > least, > > >> > > > questionable. > > >> > > > > > >> > > > But now with the Gonçalves de Leam clue we're forced to admit > > >> > > > that > > >> she > > >> > > was > > >> > > > the dau, of a Gonçalves de Leam and a Chamorra. Remember in > > >> > > > that > > >> time > > >> > the > > >> > > > first name was the father's, the second the mother's name. > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > All we can say it that we added more Italian blood, the Leam > > >> (Leone?) > > >> > to > > >> > > > our > > >> > > > tree. > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > They were not available on the Vaz list. So, Vaz may not > > >> > > > > have > > >> known. > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > That's what surprises me. If he knew he did not show it. If > > >> > > > he did > > >> not > > >> > > show > > >> > > > it but he knew it, well....But, genealogically speaking, he > > >> > > > had > > too. > > >> > It's > > >> > > > too fundamental a clue to be discarded. Anyway for Vaz a > > >> > > > bastard > > >> line > > >> > was > > >> > > > not a matter of shame, or something to hide (like HHN did > > >> sometimes). > > >> > > > Furthermore the Leam were "good" families, top bourgeoisie. > > perhaps > > >> > even > > >> > > > descendants of Italian nobility, They were linked to the > Spínolas. > > >> And > > >> > > the > > >> > > > Spínolas were one of the top Madeiran families. So this Leam > > >> > > > link > > >> that > > >> > > > Beatriz undoubtedly carries "had" perforce to be explored. > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > Bastard line? > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > I don't think so.Furthermore with such a big name. > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > The Alentejo cold does help your research! > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > Thanks Siberian cold on the way, "Vaga de frio monumental" > > >> > Scandianavian > > >> > > > countries 41 degrees below zero (Fahrenheit scale). > > >> > > > Temperatures > > >> below > > >> > > zero > > >> > > > in Portugal interior. handle me that rum, or vodka or > > >> > > > whatever, > > >> please! > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > Miguel > > >> > > > > > >> > > > José > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > -----Original Message----- > > >> > > > > From: [email protected] [mailto: > > >> > > > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de > > >> > > > > Castro > > >> > > > Henriques > > >> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2010 7:46 PM > > >> > > > > To: [email protected] > > >> > > > > Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de > > >> > > > > Gouveia > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > I found an old marriage register to which I did not > > >> > > > > concede > > much > > >> > > > > importance > > >> > > > > at the time. Now I see that it connects with a discussion > > >> > > > > about > > >> F.co > > >> > > > > Rodrigues de Gouveia we had here a year ago or so. Was he > > >> Licenciado > > >> > or > > >> > > > > not? > > >> > > > > Was it a forgery? (his marriage document, as Paulo contended). > > >> Well, > > >> > it > > >> > > > > seems that it was not. Let's see why. > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > Anyway here we go. It's the marriage certificate of Isabel > > >> > > > > Leal > > m. > > >> > Rui > > >> > > > > Chamorro, (1577, Sé do Funchal). > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > She is the dau, of F.co da Costa de Siqueira and Leonor > > Rodrigues. > > >> > (The > > >> > > > > Costa de Siqueira were noble, and are relatively well known). > > Him, > > >> > Rui > > >> > > > > Chamorro, son of Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia > > >> (already > > >> > > dead) > > >> > > > > and his wife - and here is the surprise ..*.Beatriz > > >> > > > > Gonçalves de > > >> Leam > > >> > > de > > >> > > > > Chamorra !!* > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > The document is original, The words "Gonçalves de Leam de" > > >> > > > > were > > >> added > > >> > > > with > > >> > > > > the very same writing of the priest who wrote the document > > >> > > > > (I > > have > > >> no > > >> > > > doubt > > >> > > > > about it. It was the priest. It's not an added and clever > > forgery, > > >> i > > >> > > bet > > >> > > > > strongly on that). Anyway It's a name extraodinarily long > > >> > > > > for > > that > > >> > > time. > > >> > > > > And > > >> > > > > containing explosive and brand new information. > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > The Leão were from Italian origin, merchants. "Mercadores > > >> > > > > do > > >> trauto > > >> > do > > >> > > > > assucar" (They came very early to Madeira, around 1472). > > >> > > > > They > > >> > > established > > >> > > > > themselves in Funchal.They were later and, no surprisingly, > > >> connected > > >> > > by > > >> > > > > marriage with the Spínolas.. They were upper bourgeoisie, > > >> > > > > at > > >> least. > > >> > > > > A Licenciado Diogo de Leão existed around that time. > > >> > > > > Probably a > > >> > > relative? > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > In this document we have evidence that a Licenciado > > >> > > > > Francisco > > >> > Rodrigues > > >> > > > de > > >> > > > > Gouveia truly existed. So in face of this document we are > > >> > > > > forced > > >> to > > >> > say > > >> > > > he > > >> > > > > is documented and his full name was truly Francisco > > >> > > > > Rodrigues de > > >> > > Gouveia. > > >> > > > > Now he was supposed to be married to a just Brites Chamorra > > >> > > > > by > > >> > several > > >> > > > > leading genealogists (Meneses Vaz included) > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > Here from ARM database: Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia, Dr. > > >> > > > > Beatriz > > >> > > > > Chamorra Sé 1539 46 7 v.º > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > But how come no one mentioned the "Gonçalves de Leam" of > > >> > > > > Beatriz > > >> > > > Chamorra? > > >> > > > > It was mandatory! Because it's an extremely interesting > > >> > > > > and > > >> central > > >> > > > detail > > >> > > > > which could lead to a connection, still unknown , between > > >> > > > > the > > Leão > > >> > and > > >> > > > the > > >> > > > > Chamorros. What is said here is that it (that connection) > > >> blatantly > > >> > > > > existed. > > >> > > > > This Chamorra had Leam (Leão) blood. That no genealogist > > >> > > > > said it > > >> > > before. > > >> > > > > And > > >> > > > > that, just amazes me. > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > The witness were João Rodrigues Escórcio - well known > character. > > >> Joam > > >> > > > > Carvalho. Pedro Feo (Feio) and Francisco Jorge. All the > > >> > > > > witness > > as > > >> is > > >> > > > > fitting for the marriage of a Licenciado could read and write. > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > I think Joam Carvalho was a judge. > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > Anyway all this is really groovy and juicy. > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > I leave here this info.because I think very strange that > > >> > > > > none of > > >> the > > >> > > > > leading > > >> > > > > genealogists (of reference, I know and studied almost them > > >> > > > > all > > but > > >> I > > >> > > > won't > > >> > > > > quote all their names) referred it. Especially those who > > >> > > > > wrote > > >> the > > >> > > > > Rodrigues de Gouveia title as well as the Lopes Esteves > > >> > > > > title > > >> (patent > > >> > > in > > >> > > > > the > > >> > > > > old and regreted NESOS). Had they seen it they were > "condemned" > > to > > >> > > refer > > >> > > > > this Beatriz Gonçalves de Leam de Chamorra. They would have > > >> > > > > been > > >> as > > >> > > > > stupefied as I am. Did this document eluded them? I don't > > believe > > >> > that > > >> > > > > having seen it they would discard it,. They were too > > knowledgeable > > >> to > > >> > > do > > >> > > > > it. > > >> > > > > Besides it has a promising discovery adventure appended to it. > > So > > >> I > > >> > > have > > >> > > > to > > >> > > > > concede that this document that I got pretty easily escaped > > their > > >> > > > > attention, > > >> > > > > or was stuck in an old pile behind a desk or something at > > >> > > > > their > > >> time. > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > Of course this interests half Madeira, since half Madeira > > descends > > >> > from > > >> > > > the > > >> > > > > Rodrigues de Gouveia. > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > Cheers, > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > Miguel > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the > > >> > > > > list, please send an email to > > >> > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > >> without > > >> > > the > > >> > > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the > > >> > > > > list, please send an email to > > >> > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > >> without > > >> > > the > > >> > > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, > > >> > > > please send an email to [email protected] with > > >> > > > the word 'unsubscribe' > > >> without > > >> > the > > >> > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, > > >> > > > please send an email to [email protected] with > > >> > > > the word 'unsubscribe' > > >> without > > >> > the > > >> > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, > > >> > > please send an email to [email protected] with > > >> > > the word 'unsubscribe' > > without > > >> the > > >> > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, > > >> > > please send an email to [email protected] with > > >> > > the word 'unsubscribe' > > without > > >> the > > >> > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > ------------------------------- > > >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > >> > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > >> > without > > >> the > > >> > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > ------------------------------- > > >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > >> > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > >> > without > > >> the > > >> > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > >> > > > >> > > >> ------------------------------- > > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > >> without > > the > > >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > >> > > >> > > >> ------------------------------- > > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > >> without > > the > > >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > >> > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message No virus found in this > incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.5.432 / Virus Database: 270.14.119/2586 - Release Date: 01/07/10 > 19:35:00 > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Miguel- if you are not exercising I am thinking! What if Beatriz 's mother is Inês Gonçalves? Does that then gives us the Gonçalves and perhaps the Leão? It is a cold day in Toronto. Only -12 C. José -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Fernandes, Jose Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 9:45 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Chamorra Miguel/Cecce There are other postings that may clear this up but let me add that according to Vaz there were no two marriages, but it makes sense, and once again according to Vaz our Beatriz Chamorra married to Francisco was from the Chamorros from Santo António, thus indirectly connecting them to Pedro Chamorro. The problem is that this Beatriz does not seem to have any parents! José -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro Henriques Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 9:32 AM To: [email protected]; [email protected] Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Chamorra Cece, I guees you have the best Chamorro of all the cards. Pedro Chamorro is documented. He was "homem fidalgo, porteiro dos cativos da Ilha). In short a nobleman high bureaucrat. He is believed to be son of Fernão Chamorro, Escudeiro do Infante D. Henrique. Ir seems he married twice. 1. with Francisca de Barros, from the illustrious Barros and dau. of Diogo de Barros da Cunha and Francisca Henriques - and this Francsica connected to one of the more mysterious and singular figures from Madeira of all times (Of whom tehre is much talk nowadays, and of whom books have been written). And he married a second time with Inês Gonçalves. probably our (José, Paulo's and mine) Chamorros are also linked to those ones. But we have not yet been able to establish a documented firm link to them. Miguel. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Miguel, It is a good story. But are you suggesting that someone married into the family? Yes, in fact Vaz says that Manuel de Gouveia Pacheco took the name of Pacheco from his mother "pois que seus primos, filhos duma tia, Isabel Ferreira Castro, irma de sua mae, tomaram também o mesmo apelido Pacheco'. His mother was Ana de Castro, and her parents and Isabel's were Dr. Diogo de Castro e Margarida Ferreira. So my friend from Alentejo, it is more than a conjecture, you are right! But you did go through a more complicated way! José -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro Henriques Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 1:52 PM To: [email protected]; [email protected] Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Pachecos if the Rodrigues de Gouveia and João Rodrigues Escórcio was ( Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia) João Rodrigues Escórcio is a key figure for understanding the emergence of the Pacheco name in the Rodrigues de Gouveia. Let us see why, 1. He appears as "testemunha" in Rui Chamorro ( son of F.co Rodrigues de Gouveua and brites CVhamorra) with Isabel Leal. 2. He appears as testamenteiro, in Gaspar Rodrigues de Gouveria (brother of Rui Chamorro) will. Testamenteiros were normally relatives. So he is a figure close to this family. Because he is relative? probably- Let's see João Rodrigues Escórcio genealogy. 1. João Rodrigues Arraes, Escudeiro FCR, An interesting Arrais because he is supposed to be the first Arrais in madeira. He wrote his "testamento" in 1517, He was the administrator of a Capela in Sintra, Portugal. je married Leonor Escórcio, dau. of our well known the Magnificent João de leiria and Isabel Eanes Escórcio. tehy had. 2. Diogo Rodrigues Escórcio (fez testamento em 1533). m. Juliana Giraldes, dau, of Gerlado Anes , and sister of Gaspar Rodrigues teixeira (who had a coat of arms for Teixeiras inm 135r). sons of Lourenço Rodrigues teixeiram and g. sons of "The Gordo." 3. João Rodrigues Escórcio m. Maria Pacheco " (Here is the Hare!), dau. of Àlvaro da Fonseca and Isabel Pacheco - This later was the dau of Pedro de Escobar and Margarida Pacheco (title Escobar). Note - margarida pacheco was the g. dau, of Gomes Pacheco, Fidalgo da Casa Real. IMO the Rodrigues de Gouveia used the Pacheco name just because of this Gomes Pacheco, a very illustrious figure. So my conjecture is that the Pacheco that the Rodrigues de Gouveia used for two generations is this one, comes from that Gomes Pacheco. and no other. In a next mail we'll have a look at the Escobanms. Not jews, but from old Spanish families of first magnitude. (To be continued) Miguel On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 2:32 PM, Cece Camara <[email protected]> wrote: > Guess this answers that ;-) > Cece > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro > Henriques > Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 8:24 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia > > On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 1:37 PM, Fernandes, Jose < > [email protected]> wrote: > > > Miguel, > > After a good night's reflection (?), I won't discuss my opinion on > > whether in the present unitary constitution of the Portuguese > > Republic, Madeira's regional government has the power of a "state" > > (Estado), but let's just consider that in this case ARM has taken a > > position. Consider that in spite of the certificate saying that > > Beatriz is a Gonçalves Leão de Chamorro, they have not incorporated > > that when they digitalized the info. I mean that you put that name in > > the Data base and you get nothing. That is not normal. Why did they do > that? > > > > The omnipotent and menacing shade of god-the-father! I mean probably the > ghost of Meneses Vaz paralyzed them. So they co-opted. They compromised, > and > instead of her full name they just wrote Beatriz Chamorra, but they > conceded > the Dr,.(instead of Licenciado) to Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia. > > Now there was for sure an archi-famous Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues - > never referred as de Gouveia - around 1555 and 1557. He was corregedor, ( > corregedor da Capitania da Cidade do Funchal, Procurador das Capellas, > Orphãos e Resíduos e fazenda, etc. com larguissimos poderes e Alçada, > porque > além das Corregedroias das Comarcas lhe dá a do Capitam (a do Zarco) and > in > short, he had more power than the "Capitam" of Madeira who naturally was a > Gonçalves Zarco . > > That corregedor became famous not only because of his actions, but because > he had majestic powers as no one had before him. He was "governador, > ouvidor > e Vedor da fazenda. He had at his service as "escrivão" and "chanceler da > correição" Jerónimo Vieira, moço-fidalgo, and more personnel. > Anyway during the period of time that Francisco Rodrigues had the > government > he ruled the three "Capitanias" of Madeira archipelago. (More than Jardim > today!) ; -))) > > > > > So, uisnng your argument all the ARM is guaranteeing is that she is a > > Beatriz Chamorra. > > > Not only that, even more important than that, the ARM is guaranteeing that > Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia is "de Gouveia" and Licenciado, and > historically speaking he is infinitely more important than Beatriz > Chamorra. > > > But one point not clarified remains. Is the famous corregedor Francisco > Rodrigues the same as Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia? That's one of the > major points to be cleared. As Francisco Rodrigues is quite a common name > there could be, there could even be two Licenciados with almost the same > name, no big deal. > > > > Now, you and I, know that the possibility of another Francisco > > Rodrigues Gouveia, Licenciado marrying a Beatriz Chamorra at this time > > in Funchal, Madeira is highly improbable. > > > > And that would be almost absolutely improbable. In that time there were > very > few people of both sides (Rodrigues de Gouveia and Chamorros) to have that > circumstance happening. > > > > Therefore I agree with you but we are still at a dead's end with beatriz. > > > > It has some shades of a dead end situation. But has some vistas over other > possibilities. So it's not a total dead end, rather a dead end with > openness > and some light at the end of the end of the tunnel. > > > > > Keep exercising! > > > > I will, for sure. Give it a try! > > > Cheers, > > Miguel > > > > > Cheers, > > José > > >

Cece, I guees you have the best Chamorro of all the cards. Pedro Chamorro is documented. He was "homem fidalgo, porteiro dos cativos da Ilha). In short a nobleman high bureaucrat. He is believed to be son of Fernão Chamorro, Escudeiro do Infante D. Henrique. Ir seems he married twice. 1. with Francisca de Barros, from the illustrious Barros and dau. of Diogo de Barros da Cunha and Francisca Henriques - and this Francsica connected to one of the more mysterious and singular figures from Madeira of all times (Of whom tehre is much talk nowadays, and of whom books have been written). And he married a second time with Inês Gonçalves. probably our (José, Paulo's and mine) Chamorros are also linked to those ones. But we have not yet been able to establish a documented firm link to them. Miguel. On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 12:06 PM, Cece Camara <[email protected]> wrote: > I do not have all the illustrous Chamorras being spoken about as of > late...yet. However I do have one - a Pedro Chamorra who married Francisca > de Barros abt 1520-1530 my guess. Franciscas parents were Diogo de Barros > and Francisca Henriques. I do not know who this Pedro Chamorro's parents > are > - can anyone tell me by chance? > > My only other Chamorro is this Pedro & Francisca's daughter, Leonora > Chamorro who married Tristão de Barros of Rui de Barros and Macêdo(?). > > Rui de Barros and Diogo de Barros (first paragragh) were brothers and sons > of Pedro Goncalves & Isabel de Barros (again more sons taking their > mother's > name because...???) > > Cece > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 1:37 PM, Fernandes, Jose < [email protected]> wrote: > Miguel, > After a good night's reflection (?), I won't discuss my opinion on whether > in the present unitary constitution of the Portuguese Republic, Madeira's > regional government has the power of a "state" (Estado), but let's just > consider that in this case ARM has taken a position. Consider that in spite > of the certificate saying that Beatriz is a Gonçalves Leão de Chamorro, they > have not incorporated that when they digitalized the info. I mean that you > put that name in the Data base and you get nothing. That is not normal. Why > did they do that? > The omnipotent and menacing shade of god-the-father! I mean probably the ghost of Meneses Vaz paralyzed them. So they co-opted. They compromised, and instead of her full name they just wrote Beatriz Chamorra, but they conceded the Dr,.(instead of Licenciado) to Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia. Now there was for sure an archi-famous Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues - never referred as de Gouveia - around 1555 and 1557. He was corregedor, ( corregedor da Capitania da Cidade do Funchal, Procurador das Capellas, Orphãos e Resíduos e fazenda, etc. com larguissimos poderes e Alçada, porque além das Corregedroias das Comarcas lhe dá a do Capitam (a do Zarco) and in short, he had more power than the "Capitam" of Madeira who naturally was a Gonçalves Zarco . That corregedor became famous not only because of his actions, but because he had majestic powers as no one had before him. He was "governador, ouvidor e Vedor da fazenda. He had at his service as "escrivão" and "chanceler da correição" Jerónimo Vieira, moço-fidalgo, and more personnel. Anyway during the period of time that Francisco Rodrigues had the government he ruled the three "Capitanias" of Madeira archipelago. (More than Jardim today!) ; -))) > So, uisnng your argument all the ARM is guaranteeing is that she is a > Beatriz Chamorra. Not only that, even more important than that, the ARM is guaranteeing that Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia is "de Gouveia" and Licenciado, and historically speaking he is infinitely more important than Beatriz Chamorra. But one point not clarified remains. Is the famous corregedor Francisco Rodrigues the same as Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia? That's one of the major points to be cleared. As Francisco Rodrigues is quite a common name there could be, there could even be two Licenciados with almost the same name, no big deal. > Now, you and I, know that the possibility of another Francisco Rodrigues > Gouveia, Licenciado marrying a Beatriz Chamorra at this time in Funchal, > Madeira is highly improbable. > And that would be almost absolutely improbable. In that time there were very few people of both sides (Rodrigues de Gouveia and Chamorros) to have that circumstance happening. > Therefore I agree with you but we are still at a dead's end with beatriz. > It has some shades of a dead end situation. But has some vistas over other possibilities. So it's not a total dead end, rather a dead end with openness and some light at the end of the end of the tunnel. > Keep exercising! > I will, for sure. Give it a try! Cheers, Miguel > Cheers, > José > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto: > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro Henriques > Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 5:07 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia > > Mine is certified. You can ask docs. from ARM in two ways; a( as simple > photocopy . has no kegal value, B) Certified. With the official stamp, it > has legal value. It's a certified document that you may use in any legal > undertake. > > So what ARM is saying when it puts the official stamp is: we guarantee that > all that this document states is true. And that's precisely what is a legal > document about. True facts. Not forgeries. > > Pilates is really great exercise ; -)) > > Miguel > > > > > > On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 10:01 PM, Miguel de Castro Henriques < > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 9:44 PM, Fernandes, Jose < > > [email protected]> wrote: > > > >> Miguel, > >> Great arguments. However, many of the copies are not certified. Does > that > >> change any of your arguments? > >> I am with you. Now Pilates class? Is this a misspelling? If not is this > >> the Pilates from Palestine? What he is doing giving classes in Portugal? > >> Wait I know. I will keep it to myself. I heard that the present gov't > has > >> many spies!!!!! > >> > >> Just kidding... > >> José > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: [email protected] [mailto: > >> [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro > Henriques > >> Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 4:36 PM > >> To: [email protected] > >> Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia > >> > >> On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 7:23 PM, Fernandes, Jose < > >> [email protected]> wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >> > Miguel, > >> > I agree with you. Do you think all of this might have to do with the > >> Cunha > >> > case? > >> > >> > >> José, > >> > >> I really don't see very well the Rodrigues de Gouveia faking all these > >> documents (or asking someone to do it) to win the case against the all > >> powerful Pedro Álvares da Cunha. The documents had to be checked and > >> re~checked. Pedro Álvares da Cunha was too big a fish to get swallowed > by > >> any amount of fake documents. He had the best lawyers and court people > and > >> experts working for him. They would detect the slightest irregularities > in > >> the papers and documents. Even better than any of us and perhaps any > >> contemporary expert. It was their world, their language, their style of > >> writing. They would be able to detect fakers and forgeries quite easily. > >> People from these days were subtle..\ Just have a look at their > >> handwriting > >> many times elegant, precise, elaborate.and each one seemed to have its > >> personal style. Just compare to today's handwriting- generally > amorphous, > >> poor, without style. > >> > >> > >> On other hand the document from which I started all my considerations is > >> from the ARM database. Now, let me tell this. The ARM is a provider of > >> legal documents. The documents we ask to ARM has in its database have > >> legal > >> force to prove something like : our being candidates to a heritage, > asking > >> for a title of nobility, asking for a coat of arms, wanting to change > our > >> name and surname and proving an ancestor had that name, etc. I mean > every > >> register in the ARM is not there per chance. It had to be demonstrated > >> that > >> it was accurate, before they included it in their database. So every > >> marriage doc. every baptismal goes through the hands of experts. > Forgeries > >> are no admissible, since they are legal documents guaranteed by the > >> State.. > >> Otherwise no one would take seriously that ARM and its database. Of > >> course, > >> even so, an extremely clever and old forgery could pass the eyes of > >> experts. > >> Though the filters are more and more accurate. I believe we are now in > the > >> 2nd and third generation of experts in the ARM after its foundation. > >> Second, > >> at least, though João Cabral could be my ggfather. Moreover they have a > >> tradition of very good professionalism. So if they admit a document in > >> their > >> database it is only after close scrutiny by experts on the field.. And > for > >> scientific and legal reasons it can not be otherwise. > >> > >> > >> So we have here an interesting case. If the doc. I have mentioned is a > >> forgery, then the experts of the ARM were not able to identify it. But I > >> doubt it very strongly. What interests more a genealogist are precisely > >> the > >> two first centuries of Madeiran documents. It's there that their > attention > >> is more focused. So, i think that the document I have (the photocopy of > >> it) > >> is sound and clear and moreover authenticated by ARM experts. I can use > it > >> legally to prove that for instance for having a claim for using the > >> Chamorros coat of arms,. since I descend from them with only three > breaks > >> on > >> the male lineage. I won't, of course. But that's an open possibility for > >> somebody else who requires the services of the ARM and finds the very > same > >> document and wants to do that precislçey that. And the ARM documents > have > >> that legal force, they are decisive and final proof. That's why they are > >> authenticated, with the seal of the Government. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > One could pick sides in all of this! > >> > It is too bad that Paulo is m.i.a., for he had a strong feeling about > >> this. > >> > > >> > >> > >> Yes. He had a strong stand on all this - But I don't have his particular > >> opinion on this document. He contested others. Not this one. > >> > >> > >> > >> > It is possible that he just chose to believe Bernardo. > >> > >> > >> Yes. He is a bit fast IMO dismissing the document. > >> > >> > >> > >> > Howver, you make a good case. So what do we do now? Throw out the > >> Carvalho > >> > Pais? > >> > > >> > > >> Not yet, though I am not clinging to them specially. Half of Portugal > >> descends from the Carvalhos de Basto, from which the Carvalhos pais are > >> minor madeiran branch. > >> > >> I think we have to study where this Leam link leads. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Hope you are feeling a bit warmer. > >> > > >> > >> > >> Yeah. Just came from my Pilates class, and am feeling OK. > >> > >> > >> Miguel > >> > >> > > >> > José > >> > > >> > -----Original Message----- > >> > From: [email protected] [mailto: > >> > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro > >> Henriques > >> > Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 1:48 PM > >> > To: [email protected] > >> > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia > >> > > >> > On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 5:21 PM, Fernandes, Jose < > >> > [email protected]> wrote: > >> > > >> > > Miguel, > >> > > I am just reading the Rodrigues de Gouveia genealogy, and on note #8 > >> > > Bernado Gomes Ferreira (?) writes that there is acertificate of > >> marriage > >> > > for out two, but " existe-mas é como não existisse. > >> > > >> > > >> > Ah good find José. I missed it. > >> > > >> > Obscure words, he said. Anyway he ought to refer to it with more > >> precision, > >> > IMO. And I think that the document is valid, and was all written by > the > >> > hand > >> > of Vicente Afonso, cura. > >> > > >> > Now there is no doubt for me that it was written by the Cura Vicente > >> > Afonso. > >> > And signed, among others by João Rodrigues Escórcio, who later acted > as > >> > testamenteiro of the will of F.co Rodrigues de Gouveia, thus > confirming > >> > their relationship. > >> > > >> > However I don't know if Menses Vaz is referring the same document. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > ..E uma cousa inautêntica" and that's why in Bernardo's opinion Vaz > >> did > >> > not > >> > > pay attention to it. What do you think of that? > >> > > > >> > > >> > I think that Menses Vaz had a misfired shot. The document seems to me > >> > "cousa > >> > autêntica". It would perhaps alter Menses Vaz genealogy of the > Carvalho > >> > Pais > >> > (as far as beatriz Chamorra is regarded), so the horrified magister > >> send > >> > the document to hell, without having the trouble to explain why. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > I guess I am having problems with an Italian connection!!! > >> > > > >> > > >> > mmmm. Italian connections are always problematic ; -))) > >> > > >> > > >> > Miguel > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > José > >> > > > >> > > -----Original Message----- > >> > > From: [email protected] [mailto: > >> > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro > >> > Henriques > >> > > Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 11:43 AM > >> > > To: [email protected] > >> > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia > >> > > > >> > > On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 4:12 PM, Fernandes, Jose < > >> > > [email protected]> wrote: > >> > > > >> > > > Miguel, > >> > > > Interesting that the family, as you know, uses Pacheco > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > Yes, for two generations they use Gouveia Pacheco. And with that > name > >> > they > >> > > administer the "Capela" from the morgadio established by Rodrigo > Anes > >> and > >> > > Isabel Pires.. > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > and only much later goes back to the Rodrigues de Gouveia. That is > >> > > somewhat > >> > > > unusual, unless the other names were more powerful. > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > To add to Beatriz's parents' confusion, please remember that later > a > >> > > Brites > >> > > > Chamorra wins that famous name trial re: Cunha because her > ancestors > >> > were > >> > > Da > >> > > > Cunha from the Carvalho Pais. So at some time we have to deal with > >> that > >> > > > side. > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > That famous trial is a powerful piece. As you know they won against > D. > >> > > Pedro > >> > > Álvares da Cunha, a grandee of the the Kingdom, Trinchante-Mor da > Casa > >> > > Real, > >> > > (he was also Governor of Madeira), from the archi-noble Cunhas da > >> Tábua. > >> > So > >> > > they probably had access to some documentation that meanwhile was > >> lost. > >> > > Anyway, nice to watch, the obscure Rodrigues de Gouveia defeating > that > >> > Big > >> > > Fish. > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > Miguel, I real believe that Vaz was not aware of the marriage in > Sé. > >> In > >> > > the > >> > > > genealogy, he says that Francisco married around 1540 or later. So > >> he > >> > > wasn't > >> > > > aware of this certificate or if he was he dismissed it. > >> > > > > >> > > > I was surprised to see on RTPi that Setubal today was going colder > >> than > >> > > the > >> > > > interior! > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > Well, I didn't know about that. For the moment it is a sunny sunny > >> day, > >> > > cold > >> > > as ice. > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > I am on my 3d cup of steaming tea. One has to drink it fast > otherwise > >> it > >> > > gets cold in no time at all. > >> > > > >> > > > > >> > > > José > >> > > > > >> > > > -----Original Message----- > >> > > > From: [email protected] [mailto: > >> > > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro > >> > > Henriques > >> > > > Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 10:56 AM > >> > > > To: [email protected] > >> > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de > Gouveia > >> > > > > >> > > > José, > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > Miguel, > >> > > > > Congratulations on this find! I believe you and I (among others) > >> > share > >> > > > this > >> > > > > family. > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > Thanks. I'm just amazed how this escaped the genealogists. Were > >> they > >> > > > kindly > >> > > > leaving something for us to discover? ; -) > >> > > > > >> > > > Yes, I have at least two or three lines to our Gaspar Rodrigues. > >> > > > > >> > > > Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia is my great (12) grandfather and is > >> > though > >> > > > > his son Gaspar that the line continues until our marriage with > >> > > > Escolástica > >> > > > > de Bettencourt. > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > Yes, the "Morgadinha" ; -) Fortunately I downloaded all the > >> Rodrigues > >> > de > >> > > > Gouveia > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > I suspect you don't have the original marriage certificate > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > I have a photocopy of the original. (The priest had a magnificent > >> > > > handwriting, clear, elegant, incisive). The addition of beatriz > glz > >> de > >> > > leam > >> > > > (no capital letters) > >> > > > is his, no doubt. > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > and that if you did, would you be able to scan it and send it to > >> my > >> > > > > personal account. > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > For the moment I am planning to buy a scanner. The old one is > kaput. > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > Otherwise, I will be ordering the certificate. > >> > > > > I also have the Vaz geneology, where I got most of my > information, > >> > and > >> > > I > >> > > > > share your amazement that they did not seem to be aware of the > >> Leão > >> > > > > connection. > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > It escaped them. I can't see another explanation. It has the clues > >> to > >> > > find > >> > > > out who were Beatriz Gonçalves de Leam de Chamorro's parents. She > >> must > >> > > be > >> > > > one of the persons from that era with the longest name. Trivial as > >> it > >> > is > >> > > > today for a Portuguese to have 4 names, it wasn't in those times. > >> > > > It would have been signaled. > >> > > > Also there is the fact that she's called "de Chamorra". Unusual > >> among > >> > the > >> > > > Chamorras who never used that "de" > >> > > > > >> > > > But what do we have here? First the son of Francisco Rodrigues de > >> > Gouveia > >> > > > and Beatriz Chamorra, is Rui Chamorro, Almost as a rule the sons > >> used > >> > > their > >> > > > father's name. Not in this case. What can it mean? It means that > the > >> > > > Chamorro name was more important than the Rodrigues de Gouveia. So > >> this > >> > > > allows us to conjecture that their Chamorro was linked with the > top > >> > > > Chamorros, descendants of the "Porteiro dos cativos", Pedro > >> Chamorro, > >> > > FCR. > >> > > > Otherwise he would have used, as Gapsar did, the Rodrigues de > >> Gouveia > >> > > name. > >> > > > Though there are no strict rules. And everything is possible as > >> regards > >> > > use > >> > > > of names of the parents. > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > You don't have Brites parents? > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > No. In the Carvalho Pais title our Brites Chamorra is presented as > >> dau. > >> > > of > >> > > > Brites Chamorra married to a Carvalho Pais. It was the respectable > >> > > Meneses > >> > > > Vaz who wrote that title. However due to new data it's, to say the > >> > least, > >> > > > questionable. > >> > > > > >> > > > But now with the Gonçalves de Leam clue we're forced to admit that > >> she > >> > > was > >> > > > the dau, of a Gonçalves de Leam and a Chamorra. Remember in that > >> time > >> > the > >> > > > first name was the father's, the second the mother's name. > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > All we can say it that we added more Italian blood, the Leam > >> (Leone?) > >> > to > >> > > > our > >> > > > tree. > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > They were not available on the Vaz list. So, Vaz may not have > >> known. > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > That's what surprises me. If he knew he did not show it. If he did > >> not > >> > > show > >> > > > it but he knew it, well....But, genealogically speaking, he had > too. > >> > It's > >> > > > too fundamental a clue to be discarded. Anyway for Vaz a bastard > >> line > >> > was > >> > > > not a matter of shame, or something to hide (like HHN did > >> sometimes). > >> > > > Furthermore the Leam were "good" families, top bourgeoisie. > perhaps > >> > even > >> > > > descendants of Italian nobility, They were linked to the Spínolas. > >> And > >> > > the > >> > > > Spínolas were one of the top Madeiran families. So this Leam link > >> that > >> > > > Beatriz undoubtedly carries "had" perforce to be explored. > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > Bastard line? > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > I don't think so.Furthermore with such a big name. > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > The Alentejo cold does help your research! > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > Thanks Siberian cold on the way, "Vaga de frio monumental" > >> > Scandianavian > >> > > > countries 41 degrees below zero (Fahrenheit scale). Temperatures > >> below > >> > > zero > >> > > > in Portugal interior. handle me that rum, or vodka or whatever, > >> please! > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > Miguel > >> > > > > >> > > > José > >> > > > > > >> > > > > -----Original Message----- > >> > > > > From: [email protected] [mailto: > >> > > > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro > >> > > > Henriques > >> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2010 7:46 PM > >> > > > > To: [email protected] > >> > > > > Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia > >> > > > > > >> > > > > I found an old marriage register to which I did not concede > much > >> > > > > importance > >> > > > > at the time. Now I see that it connects with a discussion about > >> F.co > >> > > > > Rodrigues de Gouveia we had here a year ago or so. Was he > >> Licenciado > >> > or > >> > > > > not? > >> > > > > Was it a forgery? (his marriage document, as Paulo contended). > >> Well, > >> > it > >> > > > > seems that it was not. Let's see why. > >> > > > > > >> > > > > Anyway here we go. It's the marriage certificate of Isabel Leal > m. > >> > Rui > >> > > > > Chamorro, (1577, Sé do Funchal). > >> > > > > > >> > > > > She is the dau, of F.co da Costa de Siqueira and Leonor > Rodrigues. > >> > (The > >> > > > > Costa de Siqueira were noble, and are relatively well known). > Him, > >> > Rui > >> > > > > Chamorro, son of Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia > >> (already > >> > > dead) > >> > > > > and his wife - and here is the surprise ..*.Beatriz Gonçalves de > >> Leam > >> > > de > >> > > > > Chamorra !!* > >> > > > > > >> > > > > The document is original, The words "Gonçalves de Leam de" were > >> added > >> > > > with > >> > > > > the very same writing of the priest who wrote the document (I > have > >> no > >> > > > doubt > >> > > > > about it. It was the priest. It's not an added and clever > forgery, > >> i > >> > > bet > >> > > > > strongly on that). Anyway It's a name extraodinarily long for > that > >> > > time. > >> > > > > And > >> > > > > containing explosive and brand new information. > >> > > > > > >> > > > > The Leão were from Italian origin, merchants. "Mercadores do > >> trauto > >> > do > >> > > > > assucar" (They came very early to Madeira, around 1472). They > >> > > established > >> > > > > themselves in Funchal.They were later and, no surprisingly, > >> connected > >> > > by > >> > > > > marriage with the Spínolas.. They were upper bourgeoisie, at > >> least. > >> > > > > A Licenciado Diogo de Leão existed around that time. Probably a > >> > > relative? > >> > > > > > >> > > > > In this document we have evidence that a Licenciado Francisco > >> > Rodrigues > >> > > > de > >> > > > > Gouveia truly existed. So in face of this document we are forced > >> to > >> > say > >> > > > he > >> > > > > is documented and his full name was truly Francisco Rodrigues de > >> > > Gouveia. > >> > > > > Now he was supposed to be married to a just Brites Chamorra by > >> > several > >> > > > > leading genealogists (Meneses Vaz included) > >> > > > > > >> > > > > Here from ARM database: Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia, Dr. > >> > > > > Beatriz > >> > > > > Chamorra Sé 1539 46 7 v.º > >> > > > > > >> > > > > But how come no one mentioned the "Gonçalves de Leam" of Beatriz > >> > > > Chamorra? > >> > > > > It was mandatory! Because it's an extremely interesting and > >> central > >> > > > detail > >> > > > > which could lead to a connection, still unknown , between the > Leão > >> > and > >> > > > the > >> > > > > Chamorros. What is said here is that it (that connection) > >> blatantly > >> > > > > existed. > >> > > > > This Chamorra had Leam (Leão) blood. That no genealogist said it > >> > > before. > >> > > > > And > >> > > > > that, just amazes me. > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > The witness were João Rodrigues Escórcio - well known character. > >> Joam > >> > > > > Carvalho. Pedro Feo (Feio) and Francisco Jorge. All the witness > as > >> is > >> > > > > fitting for the marriage of a Licenciado could read and write. > >> > > > > > >> > > > > I think Joam Carvalho was a judge. > >> > > > > > >> > > > > Anyway all this is really groovy and juicy. > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > I leave here this info.because I think very strange that none of > >> the > >> > > > > leading > >> > > > > genealogists (of reference, I know and studied almost them all > but > >> I > >> > > > won't > >> > > > > quote all their names) referred it. Especially those who wrote > >> the > >> > > > > Rodrigues de Gouveia title as well as the Lopes Esteves title > >> (patent > >> > > in > >> > > > > the > >> > > > > old and regreted NESOS). Had they seen it they were "condemned" > to > >> > > refer > >> > > > > this Beatriz Gonçalves de Leam de Chamorra. They would have been > >> as > >> > > > > stupefied as I am. Did this document eluded them? I don't > believe > >> > that > >> > > > > having seen it they would discard it,. They were too > knowledgeable > >> to > >> > > do > >> > > > > it. > >> > > > > Besides it has a promising discovery adventure appended to it. > So > >> I > >> > > have > >> > > > to > >> > > > > concede that this document that I got pretty easily escaped > their > >> > > > > attention, > >> > > > > or was stuck in an old pile behind a desk or something at their > >> time. > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > Of course this interests half Madeira, since half Madeira > descends > >> > from > >> > > > the > >> > > > > Rodrigues de Gouveia. > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > Cheers, > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > Miguel > >> > > > > > >> > > > > ------------------------------- > >> > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > >> without > >> > > the > >> > > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > ------------------------------- > >> > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > >> without > >> > > the > >> > > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > ------------------------------- > >> > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > >> without > >> > the > >> > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > ------------------------------- > >> > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > >> without > >> > the > >> > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > ------------------------------- > >> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > >> the > >> > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > ------------------------------- > >> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > >> the > >> > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > > > >> > > >> > ------------------------------- > >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > >> the > >> > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > > >> > > >> > ------------------------------- > >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > >> the > >> > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > > >> > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Miguel/Cecce There are other postings that may clear this up but let me add that according to Vaz there were no two marriages, but it makes sense, and once again according to Vaz our Beatriz Chamorra married to Francisco was from the Chamorros from Santo António, thus indirectly connecting them to Pedro Chamorro. The problem is that this Beatriz does not seem to have any parents! José -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro Henriques Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 9:32 AM To: [email protected]; [email protected] Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Chamorra Cece, I guees you have the best Chamorro of all the cards. Pedro Chamorro is documented. He was "homem fidalgo, porteiro dos cativos da Ilha). In short a nobleman high bureaucrat. He is believed to be son of Fernão Chamorro, Escudeiro do Infante D. Henrique. Ir seems he married twice. 1. with Francisca de Barros, from the illustrious Barros and dau. of Diogo de Barros da Cunha and Francisca Henriques - and this Francsica connected to one of the more mysterious and singular figures from Madeira of all times (Of whom tehre is much talk nowadays, and of whom books have been written). And he married a second time with Inês Gonçalves. probably our (José, Paulo's and mine) Chamorros are also linked to those ones. But we have not yet been able to establish a documented firm link to them. Miguel.

And cecce...these are parents to our Brites Chamorra who marries Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia....if Miguel is not right about the italian connection...! By the way according to Vaz Beatriz Chamorra(Brites) is daughter of Pedro Chamorro and Ines Alvares or Gonçalves or perhaps of Francisca de Barros. You take your pick. By the way, the children for this couple are: Pedro Chamorro da Cunha, Paio Rodrigues Pais, Helena Pais, Ines Pais, Brites Chamoora who marries our Francisco. Now all of this according to the venerable Cónego Vaz! Do you want more confusion? In her will Beatriz Chamorra married to Diogo Pais is said not to have mentioned Brites married to Francisco. Was she her daughter and if not, MIGUEL, this may mean that she was not and therefore Beatriz married to Francisco is a Leão? What do you think of that? Anyone else out there confused? José -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Fernandes, Jose Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 8:58 AM To: [email protected]; [email protected] Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Chamorra Well Cecce your Chamorro is also illustrious and mine also! These were parents to Brites Chamorra who led that famous fight and won for the Cunha name. Don't know who Pedro's parents are, other than he is a Chamorro. Barros was and continues to be a "good" name. José -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Cece Camara Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 7:06 AM To: [email protected] Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Chamorra I do not have all the illustrous Chamorras being spoken about as of late...yet. However I do have one - a Pedro Chamorra who married Francisca de Barros abt 1520-1530 my guess. Franciscas parents were Diogo de Barros and Francisca Henriques. I do not know who this Pedro Chamorro's parents are - can anyone tell me by chance? My only other Chamorro is this Pedro & Francisca's daughter, Leonora Chamorro who married Tristão de Barros of Rui de Barros and Macêdo(?). Rui de Barros and Diogo de Barros (first paragragh) were brothers and sons of Pedro Goncalves & Isabel de Barros (again more sons taking their mother's name because...???) Cece ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Well Cecce your Chamorro is also illustrious and mine also! These were parents to Brites Chamorra who led that famous fight and won for the Cunha name. Don't know who Pedro's parents are, other than he is a Chamorro. Barros was and continues to be a "good" name. José -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Cece Camara Sent: Friday, January 08, 2010 7:06 AM To: [email protected] Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Chamorra I do not have all the illustrous Chamorras being spoken about as of late...yet. However I do have one - a Pedro Chamorra who married Francisca de Barros abt 1520-1530 my guess. Franciscas parents were Diogo de Barros and Francisca Henriques. I do not know who this Pedro Chamorro's parents are - can anyone tell me by chance? My only other Chamorro is this Pedro & Francisca's daughter, Leonora Chamorro who married Tristão de Barros of Rui de Barros and Macêdo(?). Rui de Barros and Diogo de Barros (first paragragh) were brothers and sons of Pedro Goncalves & Isabel de Barros (again more sons taking their mother's name because...???) Cece ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Miguel, After a good night's reflection (?), I won't discuss my opinion on whether in the present unitary constitution of the Portuguese Republic, Madeira's regional government has the power of a "state" (Estado), but let's just consider that in this case ARM has taken a position. Consider that in spite of the certificate saying that Beatriz is a Gonçalves Leão de Chamorro, they have not incorporated that when they digitalized the info. I mean that you put that name in the Data base and you get nothing. That is not normal. Why did they do that? So, uisnng your argument all the ARM is guaranteeing is that she is a Beatriz Chamorra. Now, you and I, know that the possibility of another Francisco Rodrigues Gouveia, Licenciado marrying a Beatriz Chamorra at this time in Funchal, Madeira is highly improbable. Therefore I agree with you but we are still at a dead's end with beatriz. Keep exercising! Cheers, José -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro Henriques Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 5:07 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia Mine is certified. You can ask docs. from ARM in two ways; a( as simple photocopy . has no kegal value, B) Certified. With the official stamp, it has legal value. It's a certified document that you may use in any legal undertake. So what ARM is saying when it puts the official stamp is: we guarantee that all that this document states is true. And that's precisely what is a legal document about. True facts. Not forgeries. Pilates is really great exercise ; -)) Miguel On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 10:01 PM, Miguel de Castro Henriques < [email protected]> wrote: > > > On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 9:44 PM, Fernandes, Jose < > [email protected]> wrote: > >> Miguel, >> Great arguments. However, many of the copies are not certified. Does that >> change any of your arguments? >> I am with you. Now Pilates class? Is this a misspelling? If not is this >> the Pilates from Palestine? What he is doing giving classes in Portugal? >> Wait I know. I will keep it to myself. I heard that the present gov't has >> many spies!!!!! >> >> Just kidding... >> José >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [email protected] [mailto: >> [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro Henriques >> Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 4:36 PM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia >> >> On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 7:23 PM, Fernandes, Jose < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> >> > Miguel, >> > I agree with you. Do you think all of this might have to do with the >> Cunha >> > case? >> >> >> José, >> >> I really don't see very well the Rodrigues de Gouveia faking all these >> documents (or asking someone to do it) to win the case against the all >> powerful Pedro Álvares da Cunha. The documents had to be checked and >> re~checked. Pedro Álvares da Cunha was too big a fish to get swallowed by >> any amount of fake documents. He had the best lawyers and court people and >> experts working for him. They would detect the slightest irregularities in >> the papers and documents. Even better than any of us and perhaps any >> contemporary expert. It was their world, their language, their style of >> writing. They would be able to detect fakers and forgeries quite easily. >> People from these days were subtle..\ Just have a look at their >> handwriting >> many times elegant, precise, elaborate.and each one seemed to have its >> personal style. Just compare to today's handwriting- generally amorphous, >> poor, without style. >> >> >> On other hand the document from which I started all my considerations is >> from the ARM database. Now, let me tell this. The ARM is a provider of >> legal documents. The documents we ask to ARM has in its database have >> legal >> force to prove something like : our being candidates to a heritage, asking >> for a title of nobility, asking for a coat of arms, wanting to change our >> name and surname and proving an ancestor had that name, etc. I mean every >> register in the ARM is not there per chance. It had to be demonstrated >> that >> it was accurate, before they included it in their database. So every >> marriage doc. every baptismal goes through the hands of experts. Forgeries >> are no admissible, since they are legal documents guaranteed by the >> State.. >> Otherwise no one would take seriously that ARM and its database. Of >> course, >> even so, an extremely clever and old forgery could pass the eyes of >> experts. >> Though the filters are more and more accurate. I believe we are now in the >> 2nd and third generation of experts in the ARM after its foundation. >> Second, >> at least, though João Cabral could be my ggfather. Moreover they have a >> tradition of very good professionalism. So if they admit a document in >> their >> database it is only after close scrutiny by experts on the field.. And for >> scientific and legal reasons it can not be otherwise. >> >> >> So we have here an interesting case. If the doc. I have mentioned is a >> forgery, then the experts of the ARM were not able to identify it. But I >> doubt it very strongly. What interests more a genealogist are precisely >> the >> two first centuries of Madeiran documents. It's there that their attention >> is more focused. So, i think that the document I have (the photocopy of >> it) >> is sound and clear and moreover authenticated by ARM experts. I can use it >> legally to prove that for instance for having a claim for using the >> Chamorros coat of arms,. since I descend from them with only three breaks >> on >> the male lineage. I won't, of course. But that's an open possibility for >> somebody else who requires the services of the ARM and finds the very same >> document and wants to do that precislçey that. And the ARM documents have >> that legal force, they are decisive and final proof. That's why they are >> authenticated, with the seal of the Government. >> >> >> >> >> > One could pick sides in all of this! >> > It is too bad that Paulo is m.i.a., for he had a strong feeling about >> this. >> > >> >> >> Yes. He had a strong stand on all this - But I don't have his particular >> opinion on this document. He contested others. Not this one. >> >> >> >> > It is possible that he just chose to believe Bernardo. >> >> >> Yes. He is a bit fast IMO dismissing the document. >> >> >> >> > Howver, you make a good case. So what do we do now? Throw out the >> Carvalho >> > Pais? >> > >> > >> Not yet, though I am not clinging to them specially. Half of Portugal >> descends from the Carvalhos de Basto, from which the Carvalhos pais are >> minor madeiran branch. >> >> I think we have to study where this Leam link leads. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > Hope you are feeling a bit warmer. >> > >> >> >> Yeah. Just came from my Pilates class, and am feeling OK. >> >> >> Miguel >> >> > >> > José >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: [email protected] [mailto: >> > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro >> Henriques >> > Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 1:48 PM >> > To: [email protected] >> > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia >> > >> > On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 5:21 PM, Fernandes, Jose < >> > [email protected]> wrote: >> > >> > > Miguel, >> > > I am just reading the Rodrigues de Gouveia genealogy, and on note #8 >> > > Bernado Gomes Ferreira (?) writes that there is acertificate of >> marriage >> > > for out two, but " existe-mas é como não existisse. >> > >> > >> > Ah good find José. I missed it. >> > >> > Obscure words, he said. Anyway he ought to refer to it with more >> precision, >> > IMO. And I think that the document is valid, and was all written by the >> > hand >> > of Vicente Afonso, cura. >> > >> > Now there is no doubt for me that it was written by the Cura Vicente >> > Afonso. >> > And signed, among others by João Rodrigues Escórcio, who later acted as >> > testamenteiro of the will of F.co Rodrigues de Gouveia, thus confirming >> > their relationship. >> > >> > However I don't know if Menses Vaz is referring the same document. >> > >> > >> > >> > > ..E uma cousa inautêntica" and that's why in Bernardo's opinion Vaz >> did >> > not >> > > pay attention to it. What do you think of that? >> > > >> > >> > I think that Menses Vaz had a misfired shot. The document seems to me >> > "cousa >> > autêntica". It would perhaps alter Menses Vaz genealogy of the Carvalho >> > Pais >> > (as far as beatriz Chamorra is regarded), so the horrified magister >> send >> > the document to hell, without having the trouble to explain why. >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > I guess I am having problems with an Italian connection!!! >> > > >> > >> > mmmm. Italian connections are always problematic ; -))) >> > >> > >> > Miguel >> > >> > >> > >> > > José >> > > >> > > -----Original Message----- >> > > From: [email protected] [mailto: >> > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro >> > Henriques >> > > Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 11:43 AM >> > > To: [email protected] >> > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia >> > > >> > > On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 4:12 PM, Fernandes, Jose < >> > > [email protected]> wrote: >> > > >> > > > Miguel, >> > > > Interesting that the family, as you know, uses Pacheco >> > > >> > > >> > > Yes, for two generations they use Gouveia Pacheco. And with that name >> > they >> > > administer the "Capela" from the morgadio established by Rodrigo Anes >> and >> > > Isabel Pires.. >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > and only much later goes back to the Rodrigues de Gouveia. That is >> > > somewhat >> > > > unusual, unless the other names were more powerful. >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > To add to Beatriz's parents' confusion, please remember that later a >> > > Brites >> > > > Chamorra wins that famous name trial re: Cunha because her ancestors >> > were >> > > Da >> > > > Cunha from the Carvalho Pais. So at some time we have to deal with >> that >> > > > side. >> > > > >> > > >> > > That famous trial is a powerful piece. As you know they won against D. >> > > Pedro >> > > Álvares da Cunha, a grandee of the the Kingdom, Trinchante-Mor da Casa >> > > Real, >> > > (he was also Governor of Madeira), from the archi-noble Cunhas da >> Tábua. >> > So >> > > they probably had access to some documentation that meanwhile was >> lost. >> > > Anyway, nice to watch, the obscure Rodrigues de Gouveia defeating that >> > Big >> > > Fish. >> > > >> > > >> > > > Miguel, I real believe that Vaz was not aware of the marriage in Sé. >> In >> > > the >> > > > genealogy, he says that Francisco married around 1540 or later. So >> he >> > > wasn't >> > > > aware of this certificate or if he was he dismissed it. >> > > > >> > > > I was surprised to see on RTPi that Setubal today was going colder >> than >> > > the >> > > > interior! >> > > > >> > > >> > > Well, I didn't know about that. For the moment it is a sunny sunny >> day, >> > > cold >> > > as ice. >> > > >> > > >> > > I am on my 3d cup of steaming tea. One has to drink it fast otherwise >> it >> > > gets cold in no time at all. >> > > >> > > > >> > > > José >> > > > >> > > > -----Original Message----- >> > > > From: [email protected] [mailto: >> > > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro >> > > Henriques >> > > > Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 10:56 AM >> > > > To: [email protected] >> > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia >> > > > >> > > > José, >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > Miguel, >> > > > > Congratulations on this find! I believe you and I (among others) >> > share >> > > > this >> > > > > family. >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > Thanks. I'm just amazed how this escaped the genealogists. Were >> they >> > > > kindly >> > > > leaving something for us to discover? ; -) >> > > > >> > > > Yes, I have at least two or three lines to our Gaspar Rodrigues. >> > > > >> > > > Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia is my great (12) grandfather and is >> > though >> > > > > his son Gaspar that the line continues until our marriage with >> > > > Escolástica >> > > > > de Bettencourt. >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > > Yes, the "Morgadinha" ; -) Fortunately I downloaded all the >> Rodrigues >> > de >> > > > Gouveia >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > I suspect you don't have the original marriage certificate >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > I have a photocopy of the original. (The priest had a magnificent >> > > > handwriting, clear, elegant, incisive). The addition of beatriz glz >> de >> > > leam >> > > > (no capital letters) >> > > > is his, no doubt. >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > and that if you did, would you be able to scan it and send it to >> my >> > > > > personal account. >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > For the moment I am planning to buy a scanner. The old one is kaput. >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > Otherwise, I will be ordering the certificate. >> > > > > I also have the Vaz geneology, where I got most of my information, >> > and >> > > I >> > > > > share your amazement that they did not seem to be aware of the >> Leão >> > > > > connection. >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > It escaped them. I can't see another explanation. It has the clues >> to >> > > find >> > > > out who were Beatriz Gonçalves de Leam de Chamorro's parents. She >> must >> > > be >> > > > one of the persons from that era with the longest name. Trivial as >> it >> > is >> > > > today for a Portuguese to have 4 names, it wasn't in those times. >> > > > It would have been signaled. >> > > > Also there is the fact that she's called "de Chamorra". Unusual >> among >> > the >> > > > Chamorras who never used that "de" >> > > > >> > > > But what do we have here? First the son of Francisco Rodrigues de >> > Gouveia >> > > > and Beatriz Chamorra, is Rui Chamorro, Almost as a rule the sons >> used >> > > their >> > > > father's name. Not in this case. What can it mean? It means that the >> > > > Chamorro name was more important than the Rodrigues de Gouveia. So >> this >> > > > allows us to conjecture that their Chamorro was linked with the top >> > > > Chamorros, descendants of the "Porteiro dos cativos", Pedro >> Chamorro, >> > > FCR. >> > > > Otherwise he would have used, as Gapsar did, the Rodrigues de >> Gouveia >> > > name. >> > > > Though there are no strict rules. And everything is possible as >> regards >> > > use >> > > > of names of the parents. >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > You don't have Brites parents? >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > No. In the Carvalho Pais title our Brites Chamorra is presented as >> dau. >> > > of >> > > > Brites Chamorra married to a Carvalho Pais. It was the respectable >> > > Meneses >> > > > Vaz who wrote that title. However due to new data it's, to say the >> > least, >> > > > questionable. >> > > > >> > > > But now with the Gonçalves de Leam clue we're forced to admit that >> she >> > > was >> > > > the dau, of a Gonçalves de Leam and a Chamorra. Remember in that >> time >> > the >> > > > first name was the father's, the second the mother's name. >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > All we can say it that we added more Italian blood, the Leam >> (Leone?) >> > to >> > > > our >> > > > tree. >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > They were not available on the Vaz list. So, Vaz may not have >> known. >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > That's what surprises me. If he knew he did not show it. If he did >> not >> > > show >> > > > it but he knew it, well....But, genealogically speaking, he had too. >> > It's >> > > > too fundamental a clue to be discarded. Anyway for Vaz a bastard >> line >> > was >> > > > not a matter of shame, or something to hide (like HHN did >> sometimes). >> > > > Furthermore the Leam were "good" families, top bourgeoisie. perhaps >> > even >> > > > descendants of Italian nobility, They were linked to the Spínolas. >> And >> > > the >> > > > Spínolas were one of the top Madeiran families. So this Leam link >> that >> > > > Beatriz undoubtedly carries "had" perforce to be explored. >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > Bastard line? >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > > I don't think so.Furthermore with such a big name. >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > The Alentejo cold does help your research! >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > Thanks Siberian cold on the way, "Vaga de frio monumental" >> > Scandianavian >> > > > countries 41 degrees below zero (Fahrenheit scale). Temperatures >> below >> > > zero >> > > > in Portugal interior. handle me that rum, or vodka or whatever, >> please! >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > Miguel >> > > > >> > > > José >> > > > > >> > > > > -----Original Message----- >> > > > > From: [email protected] [mailto: >> > > > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro >> > > > Henriques >> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2010 7:46 PM >> > > > > To: [email protected] >> > > > > Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia >> > > > > >> > > > > I found an old marriage register to which I did not concede much >> > > > > importance >> > > > > at the time. Now I see that it connects with a discussion about >> F.co >> > > > > Rodrigues de Gouveia we had here a year ago or so. Was he >> Licenciado >> > or >> > > > > not? >> > > > > Was it a forgery? (his marriage document, as Paulo contended). >> Well, >> > it >> > > > > seems that it was not. Let's see why. >> > > > > >> > > > > Anyway here we go. It's the marriage certificate of Isabel Leal m. >> > Rui >> > > > > Chamorro, (1577, Sé do Funchal). >> > > > > >> > > > > She is the dau, of F.co da Costa de Siqueira and Leonor Rodrigues. >> > (The >> > > > > Costa de Siqueira were noble, and are relatively well known). Him, >> > Rui >> > > > > Chamorro, son of Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia >> (already >> > > dead) >> > > > > and his wife - and here is the surprise ..*.Beatriz Gonçalves de >> Leam >> > > de >> > > > > Chamorra !!* >> > > > > >> > > > > The document is original, The words "Gonçalves de Leam de" were >> added >> > > > with >> > > > > the very same writing of the priest who wrote the document (I have >> no >> > > > doubt >> > > > > about it. It was the priest. It's not an added and clever forgery, >> i >> > > bet >> > > > > strongly on that). Anyway It's a name extraodinarily long for that >> > > time. >> > > > > And >> > > > > containing explosive and brand new information. >> > > > > >> > > > > The Leão were from Italian origin, merchants. "Mercadores do >> trauto >> > do >> > > > > assucar" (They came very early to Madeira, around 1472). They >> > > established >> > > > > themselves in Funchal.They were later and, no surprisingly, >> connected >> > > by >> > > > > marriage with the Spínolas.. They were upper bourgeoisie, at >> least. >> > > > > A Licenciado Diogo de Leão existed around that time. Probably a >> > > relative? >> > > > > >> > > > > In this document we have evidence that a Licenciado Francisco >> > Rodrigues >> > > > de >> > > > > Gouveia truly existed. So in face of this document we are forced >> to >> > say >> > > > he >> > > > > is documented and his full name was truly Francisco Rodrigues de >> > > Gouveia. >> > > > > Now he was supposed to be married to a just Brites Chamorra by >> > several >> > > > > leading genealogists (Meneses Vaz included) >> > > > > >> > > > > Here from ARM database: Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia, Dr. >> > > > > Beatriz >> > > > > Chamorra Sé 1539 46 7 v.º >> > > > > >> > > > > But how come no one mentioned the "Gonçalves de Leam" of Beatriz >> > > > Chamorra? >> > > > > It was mandatory! Because it's an extremely interesting and >> central >> > > > detail >> > > > > which could lead to a connection, still unknown , between the Leão >> > and >> > > > the >> > > > > Chamorros. What is said here is that it (that connection) >> blatantly >> > > > > existed. >> > > > > This Chamorra had Leam (Leão) blood. That no genealogist said it >> > > before. >> > > > > And >> > > > > that, just amazes me. >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > The witness were João Rodrigues Escórcio - well known character. >> Joam >> > > > > Carvalho. Pedro Feo (Feio) and Francisco Jorge. All the witness as >> is >> > > > > fitting for the marriage of a Licenciado could read and write. >> > > > > >> > > > > I think Joam Carvalho was a judge. >> > > > > >> > > > > Anyway all this is really groovy and juicy. >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > I leave here this info.because I think very strange that none of >> the >> > > > > leading >> > > > > genealogists (of reference, I know and studied almost them all but >> I >> > > > won't >> > > > > quote all their names) referred it. Especially those who wrote >> the >> > > > > Rodrigues de Gouveia title as well as the Lopes Esteves title >> (patent >> > > in >> > > > > the >> > > > > old and regreted NESOS). Had they seen it they were "condemned" to >> > > refer >> > > > > this Beatriz Gonçalves de Leam de Chamorra. They would have been >> as >> > > > > stupefied as I am. Did this document eluded them? I don't believe >> > that >> > > > > having seen it they would discard it,. They were too knowledgeable >> to >> > > do >> > > > > it. >> > > > > Besides it has a promising discovery adventure appended to it. So >> I >> > > have >> > > > to >> > > > > concede that this document that I got pretty easily escaped their >> > > > > attention, >> > > > > or was stuck in an old pile behind a desk or something at their >> time. >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > Of course this interests half Madeira, since half Madeira descends >> > from >> > > > the >> > > > > Rodrigues de Gouveia. >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > Cheers, >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > Miguel >> > > > > >> > > > > ------------------------------- >> > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without >> > > the >> > > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > ------------------------------- >> > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without >> > > the >> > > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > > ------------------------------- >> > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without >> > the >> > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > ------------------------------- >> > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without >> > the >> > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > >> > > >> > > ------------------------------- >> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the >> > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > >> > > >> > > ------------------------------- >> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the >> > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > >> > >> > ------------------------------- >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the >> > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > >> > >> > ------------------------------- >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the >> > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message