Paulo Yes, the Dr. Vieira's Centre. Well, I can't wait for the article. Ponta do Sol and definitely Santo António. Velozas, bettencourts, Chamoorros, Gouveias are from there, and I full of them all! A new Captain that would be news! You mean not a Camara? José -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Paulo Santos Perneta Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 2:04 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Azevedos Cardosos What Center? The Atlantic Studies one? About the article, I'm trying to make it more interesting by connecting it to the present day families, without much luck yet. Nevertheless, it would cast a new light over the Ponta do Sol families, as well as possibly explain the origins of the Santo António parish in Funchal. As a side effect, it would rise many questions about the Dórias commonly believed origin, and with even more luck will dismount the "Casta Grande" myth, as well as present the first good study on that Ferreira family. A new Captain Donatário of Funchal will also appear. Still working on it. :S Paulo "Fernandes, Jose" <[email protected]> wrote in Thu, 4 Feb 2010 13:38:04 -0500: > Paulo > Please let us know about that issue of Islenha. I would want a copy. > Any comments on the new building for the Centre? > José > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Paulo Santos > Perneta > Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 1:21 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Azevedos Cardosos > > "Fernandes, Jose" <[email protected]> wrote in Thu, 4 Feb > 2010 12:46:44 -0500: > > [..] >> Finally welcome back. Were your ears burning? We have often talked >> about you. It was more, we miss you. > > Thanks! I have been working intensively in the last months in > genealogy, also in preparation for an article to be published in > Islenha about a missing part of our history... It's hard to do both > things at the same time, research and debate, and also go on with the > regular life, eheh... Anyway, I'll try to catch up a little with the > list now that I'm back in Lisbon. :) > > Paulo > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Paulo Please let us know about that issue of Islenha. I would want a copy. Any comments on the new building for the Centre? José -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Paulo Santos Perneta Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 1:21 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Azevedos Cardosos "Fernandes, Jose" <[email protected]> wrote in Thu, 4 Feb 2010 12:46:44 -0500: [..] > Finally welcome back. Were your ears burning? We have often talked > about you. It was more, we miss you. Thanks! I have been working intensively in the last months in genealogy, also in preparation for an article to be published in Islenha about a missing part of our history... It's hard to do both things at the same time, research and debate, and also go on with the regular life, eheh... Anyway, I'll try to catch up a little with the list now that I'm back in Lisbon. :) Paulo ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Paulo Congratulations on your find. Did you find out if the name Gago was a nickname, i.e. speech impediment? Any relation to Gago Coutinho? This may mean that the name has another origin. I too walked though that street many times in my youth. Let's see. I do have some connection to the Aldramas. Any other well-known families that João descendants may connect with? How come we know so much about this fisherman? I am sorry with your disappointment with Henrique Alemão. It is such a wonderful myth! The good thing is that you not yet demystified the myth, or have I missed that? Finally welcome back. Were your ears burning? We have often talked about you. It was more, we miss you. Cheers, José Fernandes -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Paulo Santos Perneta Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 12:25 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Azevedos Cardosos Speaking of "prizes"... In the last month I had 2 great discoveries, which gave me the two best genealogical "prizes" of recent times. You see, I always wanted to descend from João Gago the fisherman. You could give me all the poets, kings and noblemen, but each time I cruised that street in Funchal it annoyed me that I had not a decent descent from him (in my lines or otherwise), especially when he left so many direct descendants. João Gago the fisherman has his place in the Pantheon of our first settlers. He was THE fisherman by excellence, father of a progeny of fishermen and seamen, the sea people who lived and worked in that so much beloved, omnipresent, nostalgic sea that is part of the soul of every Maderian. So well known he was, that the street where he lived was known - and named - after him. It was João Gago's street in the 15th century, and it still is today, right there, next to the cathedral, already there when there was still not a cathedral, and Funchal was the most promising village of his time. Anyway, I wanted to be João Gago descendant, and so I am - as I found out after some merges I was doing last month. And if you happen to descend from Pedro Fernandes de Chaves and Jerónima Caldeira (the Aldramas), you too have your passport to João Gago the fisherman, and his his wife Eva Gomes. :) The other breakthrough was in my great-grandmother Clara Pereira, from Monte, whose Pereiras were an early dead-end until very recently. Then I decided to rummage over the Monte christenings in the quest for the holy Pereiras, and TCHARAM - out of the last of those apparently boring Pereiras (in fact his wife, Isidoria Maria) came a pristine line of the best Madeira nobility. Ok, ok, not so pristine, as there is a bastardy, but it was quite unexpected, nevertheless. Isidoria Maria, 6th great-grandmother, wife of José Pereira, living in Monte - Quinta dos Reis, then Levada da Corujeira - Marmeleiros - where my great-grandmother family still lives). Isidoria was in fact daughter of Manuel de Nóbrega Duarte , from Gaula (son of Manuel de Nóbrega Duarte, ancestor of the Martins de Nóbrega, anyone with family in Santo da Serra would be familiar with them) and D. Isabel de Menezes, from Porto da Cruz, daughter of João de Abreu e Freitas and D.Mariana de Menezes, this one illegitimate (so said the genealogies, the marriage records are silent about her mother, while remarking who the father is) daughter of Capitão Jorge Moniz de Menezes, son of Diogo Pereira de Menezes (tº Homens de Sousa) and D.Catarina Leme de Aguiar (tº Morais). With some bias, I could wonder if the legendary prettiness and class of my Pereira great-great-aunts from Monte derived from that new found Olympus. However, after seeing some paintings of the most prominent Madeira nobility, I'm rather prone to believe that the prettiness came from somewhere else. As for the class, they certainly got it at the time they lived in Boston (my dear American aunts! :)). Anyway, we were speaking about Henri the German, my former ancestor: Not anymore. Sometime ago I got tired of hearing the cries of FAKE! FAKE! FAKE! coming from my brain each time I looked at the ancestors of Manuel Afonso Sentido and Guiomar Gomes, supported on some França Dória genealogy mentioned in Ilhas de Zargo. And so I finally unconnected them, putting an end to those tremendously faked ancestries to the Henriques Alemão and Henriques de Noronha, which were bringing more shame than glory. As a reward, I got the answer for one of the most interesting riddles about another setting of Henriques - the Henriques Abreu, also from Camara de Lobos. This time a genuine, credible connection, which brought on the Henriques das Alcaçovas, but that's another story... :) Cheers, Paulo

That Cónego! So we caught him modernizing Iseu or Isoa! mmmm. Isaura (sorry any Isauras reading this) is rather vulgar. But Iseu or Isoa has another ring. Miguel > > On Wed, Jan 27, 2010 at 1:43 PM, Cece Camara <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> Both the Roz and Isaura were taken directly from the Azevedos Cardosos by >> Pelo Conego Fernando Meneses Vaz. >> This one has been a nightmare for me to work as he uses different names >> for >> the same person in many places...and in addition there appears to be some >> possible errors in connections. >> I'm about to give up on this one ;-) >> >> Cece >> >> >> _____ >> >> From: Miguel de Castro Henriques [mailto: >> [email protected]] >> Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 7:23 AM >> To: [email protected]; [email protected] >> Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Azevedos Cardosos >> >> >> Hello Cece, >> >> Let's start somewhere. >> >> >> Raz or Rás not Roz. It's a full name, not an abbreviation of Rodrigues. It >> could be derived from Arrais. >> >> Isoa not Isaura. Isoa is derived from Iseult or Yseult. From the classical >> Tristan and Iseult Arthurian story. Centuries before de Da Vinci Code, >> Madeiran gentry, especially from Gaula, was very keen on giving Arthurian >> names to their issue: Lançarote, from Lancelot. Galaz, from Sir Galahad, >> Tristão from Sir Tristram. (As a name, Isaura only appears in Madeira in >> the >> 19 th century, so it is quite a modern name) >> >> Título Henriques Alemão, starts with Henrique Alemâo, da Madalena do Mar, >> one of the most mysterious figures from Madeira Island. He had a title: >> Cavaleiro da Ordem de Santa Catarina do Monte Sinai. married Senhorinha >> Anes, from Algarvian and noble origins. So much has been written about >> Henrique Alemão that it is difficult to say more. He is madeiran myth >> Número >> Um, since then and probably will stay. (More than Ronaldo...). Nobiliários >> and legend had him as "Prince Polónio", prince from Poland. In those times >> anyone from north of France upwards was whatever his country "Alemão". The >> myth reports that he was actually the King of Poland himself, Ladislas >> Jagiello, who disappeared after the battle of Varna against the turks >> commanded by the legendary Sultan Ammurates. Books have been written by >> celebrated madeiran authors like Reis Gomes (O Cavaleiro de Santa >> Catarina). >> So what would you want more: a medieval king, a warrior, who disappears >> from >> the historical scene, only to re-emerge years later as a errant Knight in >> Madeira island? He never claimed he was that lost King. >> He was treated by Zarco, the Captain Donatário, with exceptional >> consideration and regards. When invited to Zarco's house - and Zarco was >> the >> leading man in Madeira, Zarco in person - not a mere servant - would serve >> him his meals, in "baixela de prata." This tells loads about the status of >> the caracther. >> When he was recognised as the lost King of Polland by several monks who >> had >> come from Polland to Madeira to implore him to return to his kingom, he >> dismissed them saying: Fools! >> >> But it seems that some time later the King of Portugal sent a ship to >> Madeira to bring him to Portugal. legend has that it was that when he was >> going by boat from Madalena do Mar to Funchal, to get on board, some rocks >> from a cliff fell down and the boat sank, and all the crew and passengers >> perished. Parts of his body were recovered from the sea. My brother, in >> Madeira saw his stone grave in which it is inscribed the Wheel of St. >> Catarina, the only coat of arms he ever used in Madeira. >> Right now in the most charming town of the whole world, Lisbon, at Museu >> de >> Arte Antiga there is currently an exhibition of madeiran paintings. One of >> the paintings, the most famous (from the 15 th century, Flanders school) >> is >> supposed to represent Henrique Alemão,posing as Saint Joachim, and >> Senhorinha Anes, as Saint Anne - the parents of the Virgin Mary. >> >> To be continued some day. >> >> Miguel >> >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Jan 27, 2010 at 2:01 AM, Cece Camara <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> Just working this genealogia as the first few names in it are direct for >> me >> (namely Catarina Pires de Quintal, daughter of Pedro Lopes de Quintal). >> Further on I came across Nuno Goncalves Cardoso who married (it says) >> Catarina de Roz daughter of Nicolau de Roz and Isaura Perestrello. >> I've never seen the name Roz before - and it does not appear to be an >> abbreviation for Rodrigues as I initially thought. It also says they are >> from the Titulo de Henriques Alemao- another one I am not familiar with. >> Just thought I'd see if anyone can shed any more light on either of these >> names. >> Cece >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> >> Internal Virus Database is out of date. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 8.5.432 / Virus Database: 270.14.131/2609 - Release Date: >> 01/09/10 >> 07:35:00 >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > >

Cece, Yes the ACs are one of the more tough títulos to go through. But I like it difficult. I am on it since 5 years or so.I might have not progressed half an inch. But then I am like a crocodile, as soon as it bites something never let go. Your prize there is HA., the top prize of all madeiran genealogical research, so better think twice before giving up. Speaking about that who or what would be the top treasures to find in one's own tree? (if there is such a thing as "own tree", because after some generations any tree inter-links with other people's trees in many ways) Anyway, personally, for my family panteon,: the poets, the poets first of all, João Gomes, Tristão das Damas, João Rodrigues Cabral, Gomes Leal, Cabral do Nascimento, Herberto Helder, António de Aragão...I got a direct connection with the 3 first, an indirect with Gomes Leal ) (the greatest portuguese symbolist poet) and Herberto is simply the best from the contemporaries of all Portugal and Palops. I am investogating his Ferreiras. With Cabral do Nascimento, and indirect connection he was linked to the Caiados, and also the Cabrais, and one day I'll find a connection with the Rodrigues Lourenço, from Ponta do Pargo, and voilà, Then as second best I treasure the navigators themselves: Zarco, and his first companions (I already posted a list of them all, collected by prof. Joel Serrão, a great madeiran and historian). I think it was one of my first posts on this list. Then I don't know why, well I know a bit why ( they're such a chaotic, complex and tragic family) the first Perestrelos. Then the first settlers and sesmeiros. I am aware that I should have a top ten list, well, but that's a start. Fialgos and nobles don't interest me that much. But they are generally nice to find because sometimes they lead to medieval Portugal, my favorite period. generally they are prolific people, not only within the realms of their oficial family, but ouit of it. Bastards are so many. Natural sons and daugthers. Some were carefully hiddedn, others not so much. I got loads. They become secondary lines. They are sinuous, baroque, and romantic if not libertine. I like complexity, caracther, hidden things, you see. What I don't liked (in my research) was to stumble upon any Gonçalves.,As research progressed they would lead to other Gonçalves endlessly. My! How they like that name Gonçalves. And I have loads of them in my tree, But recently I believe I started to overcome that prejudice against Gonçalves because a couple of Gonçalves lead me to the JRT, "O Gordo" (and I don't know why I always liked that guy, now I know why, noblesse oblige) , also Afonso da Mata, and an interesting Isabel Arrais de Mendonça. So, Ok, there are Gonçalves and Gonçalves. One of the misleading Gonçalves I encountered was a Gonçalves da Câmara ( 16 th century). When one starts this genealogical saga one's own tree is central. (at least for me it was) Then "one's own" treesomehow starts to loose its importance or centrality. One discovers one descends from all mankind. One own's tree opens its vistas to a broader picture: it becomes like a genealogical mandala, all including. Fun how genealogy helps psychological growth, and becomes a tool for the open mind. Well, hope I did'nt bore you with my philosophical considerations. Great weather in here, though terribly cold. (for us, cold is 7 º C above zero). Miguel On Wed, Jan 27, 2010 at 1:43 PM, Cece Camara <[email protected]> wrote: > > Both the Roz and Isaura were taken directly from the Azevedos Cardosos by > Pelo Conego Fernando Meneses Vaz. > This one has been a nightmare for me to work as he uses different names for > the same person in many places...and in addition there appears to be some > possible errors in connections. > I'm about to give up on this one ;-) > > Cece > > > _____ > > From: Miguel de Castro Henriques [mailto:[email protected] > ] > Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 7:23 AM > To: [email protected]; [email protected] > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Azevedos Cardosos > > > Hello Cece, > > Let's start somewhere. > > > Raz or Rás not Roz. It's a full name, not an abbreviation of Rodrigues. It > could be derived from Arrais. > > Isoa not Isaura. Isoa is derived from Iseult or Yseult. From the classical > Tristan and Iseult Arthurian story. Centuries before de Da Vinci Code, > Madeiran gentry, especially from Gaula, was very keen on giving Arthurian > names to their issue: Lançarote, from Lancelot. Galaz, from Sir Galahad, > Tristão from Sir Tristram. (As a name, Isaura only appears in Madeira in > the > 19 th century, so it is quite a modern name) > > Título Henriques Alemão, starts with Henrique Alemâo, da Madalena do Mar, > one of the most mysterious figures from Madeira Island. He had a title: > Cavaleiro da Ordem de Santa Catarina do Monte Sinai. married Senhorinha > Anes, from Algarvian and noble origins. So much has been written about > Henrique Alemão that it is difficult to say more. He is madeiran myth > Número > Um, since then and probably will stay. (More than Ronaldo...). Nobiliários > and legend had him as "Prince Polónio", prince from Poland. In those times > anyone from north of France upwards was whatever his country "Alemão". The > myth reports that he was actually the King of Poland himself, Ladislas > Jagiello, who disappeared after the battle of Varna against the turks > commanded by the legendary Sultan Ammurates. Books have been written by > celebrated madeiran authors like Reis Gomes (O Cavaleiro de Santa > Catarina). > So what would you want more: a medieval king, a warrior, who disappears > from > the historical scene, only to re-emerge years later as a errant Knight in > Madeira island? He never claimed he was that lost King. > He was treated by Zarco, the Captain Donatário, with exceptional > consideration and regards. When invited to Zarco's house - and Zarco was > the > leading man in Madeira, Zarco in person - not a mere servant - would serve > him his meals, in "baixela de prata." This tells loads about the status of > the caracther. > When he was recognised as the lost King of Polland by several monks who had > come from Polland to Madeira to implore him to return to his kingom, he > dismissed them saying: Fools! > > But it seems that some time later the King of Portugal sent a ship to > Madeira to bring him to Portugal. legend has that it was that when he was > going by boat from Madalena do Mar to Funchal, to get on board, some rocks > from a cliff fell down and the boat sank, and all the crew and passengers > perished. Parts of his body were recovered from the sea. My brother, in > Madeira saw his stone grave in which it is inscribed the Wheel of St. > Catarina, the only coat of arms he ever used in Madeira. > Right now in the most charming town of the whole world, Lisbon, at Museu de > Arte Antiga there is currently an exhibition of madeiran paintings. One of > the paintings, the most famous (from the 15 th century, Flanders school) is > supposed to represent Henrique Alemão,posing as Saint Joachim, and > Senhorinha Anes, as Saint Anne - the parents of the Virgin Mary. > > To be continued some day. > > Miguel > > > > > > On Wed, Jan 27, 2010 at 2:01 AM, Cece Camara <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Just working this genealogia as the first few names in it are direct for me > (namely Catarina Pires de Quintal, daughter of Pedro Lopes de Quintal). > Further on I came across Nuno Goncalves Cardoso who married (it says) > Catarina de Roz daughter of Nicolau de Roz and Isaura Perestrello. > I've never seen the name Roz before - and it does not appear to be an > abbreviation for Rodrigues as I initially thought. It also says they are > from the Titulo de Henriques Alemao- another one I am not familiar with. > Just thought I'd see if anyone can shed any more light on either of these > names. > Cece > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > Internal Virus Database is out of date. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.5.432 / Virus Database: 270.14.131/2609 - Release Date: 01/09/10 > 07:35:00 > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Hello Cece, Let's start somewhere. Raz or Rás not Roz. It's a full name, not an abbreviation of Rodrigues. It could be derived from Arrais. Isoa not Isaura. Isoa is derived from Iseult or Yseult. From the classical Tristan and Iseult Arthurian story. Centuries before de Da Vinci Code, Madeiran gentry, especially from Gaula, was very keen on giving Arthurian names to their issue: Lançarote, from Lancelot. Galaz, from Sir Galahad, Tristão from Sir Tristram. (As a name, Isaura only appears in Madeira in the 19 th century, so it is quite a modern name) Título Henriques Alemão, starts with Henrique Alemâo, da Madalena do Mar, one of the most mysterious figures from Madeira Island. He had a title: Cavaleiro da Ordem de Santa Catarina do Monte Sinai. married Senhorinha Anes, from Algarvian and noble origins. So much has been written about Henrique Alemão that it is difficult to say more. He is madeiran myth Número Um, since then and probably will stay. (More than Ronaldo...). Nobiliários and legend had him as "Prince Polónio", prince from Poland. In those times anyone from north of France upwards was whatever his country "Alemão". The myth reports that he was actually the King of Poland himself, Ladislas Jagiello, who disappeared after the battle of Varna against the turks commanded by the legendary Sultan Ammurates. Books have been written by celebrated madeiran authors like Reis Gomes (O Cavaleiro de Santa Catarina). So what would you want more: a medieval king, a warrior, who disappears from the historical scene, only to re-emerge years later as a errant Knight in Madeira island? He never claimed he was that lost King. He was treated by Zarco, the Captain Donatário, with exceptional consideration and regards. When invited to Zarco's house - and Zarco was the leading man in Madeira, Zarco in person - not a mere servant - would serve him his meals, in "baixela de prata." This tells loads about the status of the caracther. When he was recognised as the lost King of Polland by several monks who had come from Polland to Madeira to implore him to return to his kingom, he dismissed them saying: Fools! But it seems that some time later the King of Portugal sent a ship to Madeira to bring him to Portugal. legend has that it was that when he was going by boat from Madalena do Mar to Funchal, to get on board, some rocks from a cliff fell down and the boat sank, and all the crew and passengers perished. Parts of his body were recovered from the sea. My brother, in Madeira saw his stone grave in which it is inscribed the Wheel of St. Catarina, the only coat of arms he ever used in Madeira. Right now in the most charming town of the whole world, Lisbon, at Museu de Arte Antiga there is currently an exhibition of madeiran paintings. One of the paintings, the most famous (from the 15 th century, Flanders school) is supposed to represent Henrique Alemão,posing as Saint Joachim, and Senhorinha Anes, as Saint Anne - the parents of the Virgin Mary. To be continued some day. Miguel On Wed, Jan 27, 2010 at 2:01 AM, Cece Camara <[email protected]> wrote: > Just working this genealogia as the first few names in it are direct for me > (namely Catarina Pires de Quintal, daughter of Pedro Lopes de Quintal). > Further on I came across Nuno Goncalves Cardoso who married (it says) > Catarina de Roz daughter of Nicolau de Roz and Isaura Perestrello. > I've never seen the name Roz before - and it does not appear to be an > abbreviation for Rodrigues as I initially thought. It also says they are > from the Titulo de Henriques Alemao- another one I am not familiar with. > Just thought I'd see if anyone can shed any more light on either of these > names. > Cece > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Both the Roz and Isaura were taken directly from the Azevedos Cardosos by Pelo Conego Fernando Meneses Vaz. This one has been a nightmare for me to work as he uses different names for the same person in many places...and in addition there appears to be some possible errors in connections. I'm about to give up on this one ;-) Cece _____ From: Miguel de Castro Henriques [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 7:23 AM To: [email protected]; [email protected] Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Azevedos Cardosos Hello Cece, Let's start somewhere. Raz or Rás not Roz. It's a full name, not an abbreviation of Rodrigues. It could be derived from Arrais. Isoa not Isaura. Isoa is derived from Iseult or Yseult. From the classical Tristan and Iseult Arthurian story. Centuries before de Da Vinci Code, Madeiran gentry, especially from Gaula, was very keen on giving Arthurian names to their issue: Lançarote, from Lancelot. Galaz, from Sir Galahad, Tristão from Sir Tristram. (As a name, Isaura only appears in Madeira in the 19 th century, so it is quite a modern name) Título Henriques Alemão, starts with Henrique Alemâo, da Madalena do Mar, one of the most mysterious figures from Madeira Island. He had a title: Cavaleiro da Ordem de Santa Catarina do Monte Sinai. married Senhorinha Anes, from Algarvian and noble origins. So much has been written about Henrique Alemão that it is difficult to say more. He is madeiran myth Número Um, since then and probably will stay. (More than Ronaldo...). Nobiliários and legend had him as "Prince Polónio", prince from Poland. In those times anyone from north of France upwards was whatever his country "Alemão". The myth reports that he was actually the King of Poland himself, Ladislas Jagiello, who disappeared after the battle of Varna against the turks commanded by the legendary Sultan Ammurates. Books have been written by celebrated madeiran authors like Reis Gomes (O Cavaleiro de Santa Catarina). So what would you want more: a medieval king, a warrior, who disappears from the historical scene, only to re-emerge years later as a errant Knight in Madeira island? He never claimed he was that lost King. He was treated by Zarco, the Captain Donatário, with exceptional consideration and regards. When invited to Zarco's house - and Zarco was the leading man in Madeira, Zarco in person - not a mere servant - would serve him his meals, in "baixela de prata." This tells loads about the status of the caracther. When he was recognised as the lost King of Polland by several monks who had come from Polland to Madeira to implore him to return to his kingom, he dismissed them saying: Fools! But it seems that some time later the King of Portugal sent a ship to Madeira to bring him to Portugal. legend has that it was that when he was going by boat from Madalena do Mar to Funchal, to get on board, some rocks from a cliff fell down and the boat sank, and all the crew and passengers perished. Parts of his body were recovered from the sea. My brother, in Madeira saw his stone grave in which it is inscribed the Wheel of St. Catarina, the only coat of arms he ever used in Madeira. Right now in the most charming town of the whole world, Lisbon, at Museu de Arte Antiga there is currently an exhibition of madeiran paintings. One of the paintings, the most famous (from the 15 th century, Flanders school) is supposed to represent Henrique Alemão,posing as Saint Joachim, and Senhorinha Anes, as Saint Anne - the parents of the Virgin Mary. To be continued some day. Miguel On Wed, Jan 27, 2010 at 2:01 AM, Cece Camara <[email protected]> wrote: Just working this genealogia as the first few names in it are direct for me (namely Catarina Pires de Quintal, daughter of Pedro Lopes de Quintal). Further on I came across Nuno Goncalves Cardoso who married (it says) Catarina de Roz daughter of Nicolau de Roz and Isaura Perestrello. I've never seen the name Roz before - and it does not appear to be an abbreviation for Rodrigues as I initially thought. It also says they are from the Titulo de Henriques Alemao- another one I am not familiar with. Just thought I'd see if anyone can shed any more light on either of these names. Cece ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message Internal Virus Database is out of date. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.432 / Virus Database: 270.14.131/2609 - Release Date: 01/09/10 07:35:00

José, Thank you for sharing. So nice to see so many familiar places... I was amazed at the number of tour ships in port. Pat ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jose Fernandes" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Monday, January 25, 2010 11:57:35 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Martinho de Góis and Catarina Rodrigues I must have these people, but no luck. However, there is a new website about Madeira that members might be interested in www.visitmadeira.pt Great 3d vistas. Try it. Fernandes -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro Henriques Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 9:57 AM To: [email protected] Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Martinho de Góis and Catarina Rodrigues Hello all, Has anyone info. about Martinho de Gópis m (1590, Caniço) Catarina Rodrigues? Thanks in advance, Miguel ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Just working this genealogia as the first few names in it are direct for me (namely Catarina Pires de Quintal, daughter of Pedro Lopes de Quintal). Further on I came across Nuno Goncalves Cardoso who married (it says) Catarina de Roz daughter of Nicolau de Roz and Isaura Perestrello. I've never seen the name Roz before - and it does not appear to be an abbreviation for Rodrigues as I initially thought. It also says they are from the Titulo de Henriques Alemao- another one I am not familiar with. Just thought I'd see if anyone can shed any more light on either of these names. Cece

Hello José, Thanks. Catarina Rodrigues might be a Rodrigues Escórcio or connected with the Escórcios.. Mgiuel 2010/1/25 Fernandes, Jose <[email protected]> > I must have these people, but no luck. > However, there is a new website about Madeira that members might be > interested in www.visitmadeira.pt > Great 3d vistas. > > Try it. > José Fernandes > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto: > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro Henriques > Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 9:57 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Martinho de Góis and Catarina Rodrigues > > Hello all, > > > Has anyone info. about Martinho de Gópis m (1590, Caniço) Catarina > Rodrigues? > > Thanks in advance, > > > Miguel > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

I must have these people, but no luck. However, there is a new website about Madeira that members might be interested in www.visitmadeira.pt Great 3d vistas. Try it. José Fernandes -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro Henriques Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 9:57 AM To: [email protected] Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Martinho de Góis and Catarina Rodrigues Hello all, Has anyone info. about Martinho de Gópis m (1590, Caniço) Catarina Rodrigues? Thanks in advance, Miguel ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hello all, Has anyone info. about Martinho de Gópis m (1590, Caniço) Catarina Rodrigues? Thanks in advance, Miguel

Hello all, Three years ago in a good and famous bookstore I paid something like 20 Euros for it. (some 29 dollars). The $176 from Amazon is pure robbery! Best regards, Miguel On Tue, Jan 19, 2010 at 6:15 PM, Janette Chun <[email protected]> wrote: > Hello all, > > I thought I would post the reply I received from Wook in case anyone > on the list is interested in ordering the book. I managed to order it > online. The cost with shipping to Canada was 34 euros which is > roughly $50. Much more palatable than the $176 at Amazon. > > Happy ordering and reading! > Janette > > -ATTENTION---------- > Do not reply this message. If you need any help send us an email at: > http://www.wook.pt/help > > Dear Client: > > Thank you for your contact. In fact we are the biggest website of > books in Portugal and we accept orders from all over the world. To > register an order all you have to do is very simple, just follow the > instructions: > > 1 - Go to www.wook.pt and go to "área de cliente" and insert all the > information required; > > 2 - Select the book (s) wanted: and "Comprar" and to iniciate de > process click on "Check out" on the top of the page and follow the > instructions; > > http://www.wook.pt/ficha/the-first-global-village/a/id/78492 > > -When you arrive to the point of choosing the address of delivery you > have to: > > 1. in Morada para facturação you have to click on the button of > "ALTERAR MORADA" > 2. The NIF is the TIN ?TAX IDENTIFICATION NUMBER, if you don?t have > that, you can insert 9 zeros > > After that you will be able to register your order correctly. > > 3 - At the end of the process you will receive an email with the > information of order registered successfully. > > To make a payment in Wook.pt you have to pay the order with a credit > card and you can do it online or offline. Payment online means that is > the client himself that inserts the details of the credit card at the > registration of the order. Payment offline, in the other hand, means, > that you need to give us, by email the details of the credit card. > The shipping costs are based on the weight of the order and the > destination country. > > During the checkout process our system gives you all the information > you need: the price of the items, the shipping cost, and the total > price you are going to pay for your order > > > If you need any further information, don´t hesitate to contact us. > > Best regards. > The team > Wook.pt > Travessa da Mouta 224 > 4470-089 Gueifães > PORTUGAL > Contact: http://www.wook.pt/help > > On 15-Jan-10, at 1:16 PM, Luis Beal wrote: > > > Janette, > > They do ship to the States. I just received an e-mail from them > > because they require a NIF or TIN number which I do not have. So, if > > you want to buy the book just go ahead and create an account with > > them and when you reach that NIF number just put 123456789. You > > should be able to complete your transaction that way. > > Good luck, > > > > Luis Beal > > > > "Not to know what happened before we were born is to remain > > perpetually a child. For what is the worth of a human life unless it > > is woven into the life of our ancestors." > > Cicero, Roman orator > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Janette Chun <[email protected]> > > To: [email protected] > > Sent: Fri, January 15, 2010 12:59:23 PM > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] For Miguel -Global Village book > > > > Thanks Luis. I just sent them an email (in very poor Portuguese) > > which they will hopefully understand asking if they ship outside of > > Portugal. From the information on the shipping page I think they do, > > but not sure if it's just in Europe. Will keep you posted. > > > > Janette > > > > > > On 15-Jan-10, at 12:27 PM, Luis Beal wrote: > > > >> They still sell it in Portugal > http://www.wook.pt/ficha/the-first-global-village/a/id/78492/filter/ > >> it is only 18 euros but I don't know how much shipping costs. So it > >> is not out of print :) > >> > >> Luis Beal > >> > >> "Not to know what happened before we were born is to remain > >> perpetually a child. For what is the worth of a human life unless it > >> is woven into the life of our ancestors." > >> Cicero, Roman orator > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ________________________________ > >> From: Lou Abreu III <[email protected]> > >> To: [email protected] > >> Sent: Fri, January 15, 2010 12:11:36 PM > >> Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] For Miguel > >> > >> All, > >> I believe this book is out of print that is why it is so > >> expensive, not > >> sure the publisher would be of any help. > >> > >> Lou > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: [email protected] > >> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > [email protected] > >> Sent: Friday, January 15, 2010 1:46 PM > >> To: [email protected] > >> Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] For Miguel > >> > >> > >> Thank you, Scot. I'll check again. > >> > >> Jill > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Scot Austin <[email protected]> > >> To: [email protected] > >> Sent: Fri, Jan 15, 2010 9:31 am > >> Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] For Miguel > >> > >> > >> Amazon has 10 used copies from $62.56 to $179.18 > >> > http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/9724613135/ref=dp_olp_used?ie=UTF8&co > >> ndition=used > >> Scot > >> [email protected] wrote: > >> Thanks, Lou. I guess that is about as cheap a copy as I'm going to > >> find. > >> > >> Jill > >> > >> > >> > >> In a message dated 1/14/2010 8:40:25 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, > >> [email protected] writes: > >> > >> Jill, > >> I purchased it through Amazon.com, the price for the copy I have was > >> $76.82. I did see other copies for a lot more upwards of $120.00 > >> so this > >> copy was a bargain. > >> > >> Regards, > >> Lou > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: [email protected] > >> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of > [email protected] > >> Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2010 11:13 PM > >> To: [email protected] > >> Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] For Miguel > >> > >> Lou, > >> > >> I'm interested to know where you purchased the book The First Global > >> Village. The only place that I've seen it for sale is at > >> Amazon.com at a > >> very > >> hefty price. > >> > >> Jill > >> > >> > >> > >> In a message dated 1/14/2010 5:11:06 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, > >> [email protected] writes: > >> > >> Miguel, > >> Just wanted to drop you a note to tell you that I finally received > >> a copy > >> of Martin Page's book, The First Global Village. I have only > >> read a > >> couple > >> of pages and am very locked to this book, in 5 pages I have learned > >> things > >> about our ancestors that I did not know. Thank you so much for > >> your > >> recommendations, I shall be following them to increase and better > >> understand > >> who my ancestors are and thus who I am ..... > >> > >> Best Regards, > >> Lou > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > >> without the > >> quotes in the subject > >> and the body of the message > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > >> without the > >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > >> without the > >> uotes in the subject > >> and the body of the message > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> [email protected] > >> ith the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the > >> body of > >> > >> he message > >> > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------ > >> o unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> [email protected] > >> ith the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the > >> body of > >> > >> he message > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > >> the > >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] > >> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and > >> the body of the message > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] > >> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and > >> the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] > > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and > > the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] > > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and > > the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

No, unfortunately. Leonor da Mata, being da Mata is certainly from the Mata's from Gaula. Moreira is not a typical name from Gaula. Voilà , Miguel On Tue, Jan 19, 2010 at 8:57 AM, <[email protected]> wrote: > Hi Miguel...do u have the parents of isabel moreira and leonor da mata? > > Thank you > > Leandro > > > > > In a message dated 1/19/2010 3:27:27 A.M. W. Europe Standard Time, > [email protected] writes: > > Almost everyone with ancestors in Gaula in the 17 th century has met > several times with the flourished signature of Padre Joseph Telles de > Meneses, also known as Joseph Tello, vigário da Gaula. He was almost > omnipresent not only celebrating marriages, his role after all, but as > witness of other marriages, or godfather. He is probably one of the men > who > wrote more times his signature in marriage documents. > He had to had some exuberance and vitality, I thought. > Well, finally I caught the reverend not acting in a reverend way, > So the reverend Vigário de Gaula, after all, was human... and so he had > one > daughter and one son, from two different women, > > The first appropriately called Teresa dos Mártires, from Leonor da Mata. > and > from Isabel Moreira, he had Manuel. > As we say in good and discreet Portuguese, "era fresco!" > > All this is referred in PA, Tomo 1-10 parte, pg243. > > > Miguel > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject > and the body of the message > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Hello all, I thought I would post the reply I received from Wook in case anyone on the list is interested in ordering the book. I managed to order it online. The cost with shipping to Canada was 34 euros which is roughly $50. Much more palatable than the $176 at Amazon. Happy ordering and reading! Janette -ATTENTION---------- Do not reply this message. If you need any help send us an email at: http://www.wook.pt/help Dear Client: Thank you for your contact. In fact we are the biggest website of books in Portugal and we accept orders from all over the world. To register an order all you have to do is very simple, just follow the instructions: 1 - Go to www.wook.pt and go to "área de cliente" and insert all the information required; 2 - Select the book (s) wanted: and "Comprar" and to iniciate de process click on "Check out" on the top of the page and follow the instructions; http://www.wook.pt/ficha/the-first-global-village/a/id/78492 -When you arrive to the point of choosing the address of delivery you have to: 1. in Morada para facturação you have to click on the button of "ALTERAR MORADA" 2. The NIF is the TIN ?TAX IDENTIFICATION NUMBER, if you don?t have that, you can insert 9 zeros After that you will be able to register your order correctly. 3 - At the end of the process you will receive an email with the information of order registered successfully. To make a payment in Wook.pt you have to pay the order with a credit card and you can do it online or offline. Payment online means that is the client himself that inserts the details of the credit card at the registration of the order. Payment offline, in the other hand, means, that you need to give us, by email the details of the credit card. The shipping costs are based on the weight of the order and the destination country. During the checkout process our system gives you all the information you need: the price of the items, the shipping cost, and the total price you are going to pay for your order If you need any further information, don´t hesitate to contact us. Best regards. The team Wook.pt Travessa da Mouta 224 4470-089 Gueifães PORTUGAL Contact: http://www.wook.pt/help On 15-Jan-10, at 1:16 PM, Luis Beal wrote: > Janette, > They do ship to the States. I just received an e-mail from them > because they require a NIF or TIN number which I do not have. So, if > you want to buy the book just go ahead and create an account with > them and when you reach that NIF number just put 123456789. You > should be able to complete your transaction that way. > Good luck, > > Luis Beal > > "Not to know what happened before we were born is to remain > perpetually a child. For what is the worth of a human life unless it > is woven into the life of our ancestors." > Cicero, Roman orator > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Janette Chun <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Fri, January 15, 2010 12:59:23 PM > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] For Miguel -Global Village book > > Thanks Luis. I just sent them an email (in very poor Portuguese) > which they will hopefully understand asking if they ship outside of > Portugal. From the information on the shipping page I think they do, > but not sure if it's just in Europe. Will keep you posted. > > Janette > > > On 15-Jan-10, at 12:27 PM, Luis Beal wrote: > >> They still sell it in Portugal http://www.wook.pt/ficha/the-first-global-village/a/id/78492/filter/ >> it is only 18 euros but I don't know how much shipping costs. So it >> is not out of print :) >> >> Luis Beal >> >> "Not to know what happened before we were born is to remain >> perpetually a child. For what is the worth of a human life unless it >> is woven into the life of our ancestors." >> Cicero, Roman orator >> >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> From: Lou Abreu III <[email protected]> >> To: [email protected] >> Sent: Fri, January 15, 2010 12:11:36 PM >> Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] For Miguel >> >> All, >> I believe this book is out of print that is why it is so >> expensive, not >> sure the publisher would be of any help. >> >> Lou >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [email protected] >> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of [email protected] >> Sent: Friday, January 15, 2010 1:46 PM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] For Miguel >> >> >> Thank you, Scot. I'll check again. >> >> Jill >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Scot Austin <[email protected]> >> To: [email protected] >> Sent: Fri, Jan 15, 2010 9:31 am >> Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] For Miguel >> >> >> Amazon has 10 used copies from $62.56 to $179.18 >> http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/9724613135/ref=dp_olp_used?ie=UTF8&co >> ndition=used >> Scot >> [email protected] wrote: >> Thanks, Lou. I guess that is about as cheap a copy as I'm going to >> find. >> >> Jill >> >> >> >> In a message dated 1/14/2010 8:40:25 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, >> [email protected] writes: >> >> Jill, >> I purchased it through Amazon.com, the price for the copy I have was >> $76.82. I did see other copies for a lot more upwards of $120.00 >> so this >> copy was a bargain. >> >> Regards, >> Lou >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [email protected] >> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of [email protected] >> Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2010 11:13 PM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] For Miguel >> >> Lou, >> >> I'm interested to know where you purchased the book The First Global >> Village. The only place that I've seen it for sale is at >> Amazon.com at a >> very >> hefty price. >> >> Jill >> >> >> >> In a message dated 1/14/2010 5:11:06 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, >> [email protected] writes: >> >> Miguel, >> Just wanted to drop you a note to tell you that I finally received >> a copy >> of Martin Page's book, The First Global Village. I have only >> read a >> couple >> of pages and am very locked to this book, in 5 pages I have learned >> things >> about our ancestors that I did not know. Thank you so much for >> your >> recommendations, I shall be following them to increase and better >> understand >> who my ancestors are and thus who I am ..... >> >> Best Regards, >> Lou >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without the >> quotes in the subject >> and the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without the >> uotes in the subject >> and the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] >> ith the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the >> body of >> >> he message >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> o unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] >> ith the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the >> body of >> >> he message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] >> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and >> the body of the message >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] >> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and >> the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and > the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and > the body of the message

Hi Miguel...do u have the parents of isabel moreira and leonor da mata? Thank you Leandro In a message dated 1/19/2010 3:27:27 A.M. W. Europe Standard Time, [email protected] writes: Almost everyone with ancestors in Gaula in the 17 th century has met several times with the flourished signature of Padre Joseph Telles de Meneses, also known as Joseph Tello, vigário da Gaula. He was almost omnipresent not only celebrating marriages, his role after all, but as witness of other marriages, or godfather. He is probably one of the men who wrote more times his signature in marriage documents. He had to had some exuberance and vitality, I thought. Well, finally I caught the reverend not acting in a reverend way, So the reverend Vigário de Gaula, after all, was human... and so he had one daughter and one son, from two different women, The first appropriately called Teresa dos Mártires, from Leonor da Mata. and from Isabel Moreira, he had Manuel. As we say in good and discreet Portuguese, "era fresco!" All this is referred in PA, Tomo 1-10 parte, pg243. Miguel ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Almost everyone with ancestors in Gaula in the 17 th century has met several times with the flourished signature of Padre Joseph Telles de Meneses, also known as Joseph Tello, vigário da Gaula. He was almost omnipresent not only celebrating marriages, his role after all, but as witness of other marriages, or godfather. He is probably one of the men who wrote more times his signature in marriage documents. He had to had some exuberance and vitality, I thought. Well, finally I caught the reverend not acting in a reverend way, So the reverend Vigário de Gaula, after all, was human... and so he had one daughter and one son, from two different women, The first appropriately called Teresa dos Mártires, from Leonor da Mata. and from Isabel Moreira, he had Manuel. As we say in good and discreet Portuguese, "era fresco!" All this is referred in PA, Tomo 1-10 parte, pg243. Miguel

No Rich, they are not the same. The records you find on familysearch have been submitted by people like you and me (unless if they specify a database like the 1880 census). Some of them have come from extraction, which means they were taken from real records but it is kind of hard to know which ones those are. The church's pilot program http://pilot.familysearch.org/recordsearch/start.html#start on the other hand is extracting records from microfilms, so those will be the same as what the archives have. Unfortunately they are not yet extracting records from Portugal. Any time you use online databases try to find out first what their source is. Most of them are hearsay, incorrect, or interesting tall tales (especially if the lines go back to Adam and Eve ;) Good luck, Luis Beal "Not to know what happened before we were born is to remain perpetually a child. For what is the worth of a human life unless it is woven into the life of our ancestors." Cicero, Roman orator ________________________________ From: Rich Gomes <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Sun, January 17, 2010 1:47:39 PM Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] LDS databases Is the microfilm and microfiche that is available thru familysearch.org the same that would be found in the Madeira Archives building? The problem I am having is the databases online are not the same as the ones in the building. My family and I went to Madeira for the first time this summer so of course a visit to the Archives was absolutely on the list of things to do. Well, the results I got when I searched were very different than what was online. In talking to the administration, some of the web databases are not fully updated and are following a irregular update schedule. Has anyone else run into this problem in their searches? Has anyone used the LDS databases to look for records from Madeira? Thanks, Rich ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Is the microfilm and microfiche that is available thru familysearch.org the same that would be found in the Madeira Archives building? The problem I am having is the databases online are not the same as the ones in the building. My family and I went to Madeira for the first time this summer so of course a visit to the Archives was absolutely on the list of things to do. Well, the results I got when I searched were very different than what was online. In talking to the administration, some of the web databases are not fully updated and are following a irregular update schedule. Has anyone else run into this problem in their searches? Has anyone used the LDS databases to look for records from Madeira? Thanks, Rich

I have used microfilm at the LDS Family History Library for years. Their photographer filmed all the baptism, marriage and death records for my father's village, Canhas, Madeira, and my maternal ancestors' Porto Santo. When I went to the Madeira Archives in 1980 I realized that the microfilms there were the very same I had on permanent loan at home. All the records I have read state that they were done in duplicate. I believe that one record went to the archdiocesan office and one stayed in the parish. I was unable to read my paternal grandfather's baptism record because there was a gap in the FHL microfilm. I estimated his birth date from marriage and death records. Last year I went to Canhas and visited the church. All the records were there in the parish office and the pastor kindly gave me access to them. I found my grandfather! What a feeling to touch the very page the priest wrote on! So, I'm guessing that the FHL films were made at the archdiocesan offices. That would make sense. There the photographer had access to the records of all parishes. Maybe that 1850s segment of the Canhas baptisms was damaged by water or whatever. The Canhas films end with 1911. At the church I was able to get my grandfather's 1920 death record, and my grandmother's 1922 death record. What a coupe! I have not used the web to search. Most of my research was done before the internet was such a great source. However, I can go back anytime to the films and do the tedious work of reeling through to find my ancestors. I do not have to worry about the accuracy of transcribers nor the willingness of humans to go that extra yard for me. I can see the handwriting of the priest who wrote down the details at the time of the event. The documents are written in a proscribed form and give the basic information. Figure out the formula and go for it. You don't have to have a complete knowledge of Portuguese. Learn the words for father, mother, paternal and maternal grandfather and grandmother. Using a dictionary helps. Get a good one, not a traveler's pocket dictionary. I have a two volume set, Portuguese to English and English to Portuguese. They have been extremely helpful. Louise Pitta Polsky On Jan 17, 2010, at 1:47 PM, Rich Gomes wrote: > Is the microfilm and microfiche that is available thru > familysearch.org the > same that would be found in the Madeira Archives building? > > > The problem I am having is the databases online are not the same as > the ones > in the building. > My family and I went to Madeira for the first time this summer so of > course > a visit to the Archives was absolutely on the list of things to do. > Well, the results I got when I searched were very different than > what was > online. In talking to the administration, some of the web databases > are not > fully updated and are following a irregular update schedule. > > Has anyone else run into this problem in their searches? > > Has anyone used the LDS databases to look for records from Madeira? > > > > Thanks, > Rich > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and > the body of the message