No, no no! No primary source that I know about calls Rodrigo Anes as "Rodrigo Anes de Gouveia". The Gouveia could be from him or his wife, from what is known. Also "dona viúva" is not the same treatment as "Dona". It is a respectful treatment with the widow, but she's not instantly turned into a true Dona by that. True Donas appear as "Dona Fulana, dona viúva". And, please, forget about that "Gonçalves de Leão". I don't know who appended that to the record, and with what intention, and we probably risk a gambozino hunting if we start running after such things. Paulo Miguel de Castro Henriques <[email protected]> wrote in Thu, 7 Jan 2010 02:04:24 +0000: > the parents of F.co Rodrigues de Gouveia are Rodrigo Anes de Gouiveia (the > oldest of this family) and Isabel Pires. Isabel Pires in her testament is > called "dona viúva". A treatment for someone who carried the title of > "Dona." > > > Bor Brites or Beatriz Chamorra that's the big question that my post is > posing. SIf you read it carefully you'll see that she is called Beatriz > Gonçalves de Leam de Chamorra. > > The Gonçalves de Leam may point to something but I still don't had time to > investigate properly > > > Cheers, > > Miguel. > > On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 1:46 AM, <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Miguel.... >> >> also do u have the parents of beatriz and her husband, Francisco R de >> Gouveia?? >> >> Leandro >> >> >> In a message dated 1/7/2010 1:46:43 A.M. W. Europe Standard Time, >> [email protected] writes: >> >> I found an old marriage register to which I did not concede much >> importance >> at the time. Now I see that it connects with a discussion about F.co >> Rodrigues de Gouveia we had here a year ago or so. Was he Licenciado or >> not? >> Was it a forgery? (his marriage document, as Paulo contended). Well, it >> seems that it was not. Let's see why. >> >> Anyway here we go. It's the marriage certificate of Isabel Leal m. Rui >> Chamorro, (1577, Sé do Funchal). >> >> She is the dau, of F.co da Costa de Siqueira and Leonor Rodrigues. (The >> Costa de Siqueira were noble, and are relatively well known). Him, Rui >> Chamorro, son of Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia (already dead) >> and his wife - and here is the surprise ..*.Beatriz Gonçalves de Leam de >> Chamorra !!* >> >> The document is original, The words "Gonçalves de Leam de" were added with >> the very same writing of the priest who wrote the document (I have no >> doubt >> about it. It was the priest. It's not an added and clever forgery, i bet >> strongly on that). Anyway It's a name extraodinarily long for that time. >> And >> containing explosive and brand new information. >> >> The Leão were from Italian origin, merchants. "Mercadores do trauto do >> assucar" (They came very early to Madeira, around 1472). They established >> themselves in Funchal.They were later and, no surprisingly, connected by >> marriage with the Spínolas.. They were upper bourgeoisie, at least. >> A Licenciado Diogo de Leão existed around that time. Probably a relative? >> >> In this document we have evidence that a Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de >> Gouveia truly existed. So in face of this document we are forced to say he >> is documented and his full name was truly Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia. >> Now he was supposed to be married to a just Brites Chamorra by several >> leading genealogists (Meneses Vaz included) >> >> Here from ARM database: Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia, Dr. >> Beatriz >> Chamorra Sé 1539 46 7 v.º >> >> But how come no one mentioned the "Gonçalves de Leam" of Beatriz Chamorra? >> It was mandatory! Because it's an extremely interesting and central >> detail >> which could lead to a connection, still unknown , between the Leão and the >> Chamorros. What is said here is that it (that connection) blatantly >> existed. >> This Chamorra had Leam (Leão) blood. That no genealogist said it before. >> And >> that, just amazes me. >> >> >> The witness were João Rodrigues Escórcio - well known character. Joam >> Carvalho. Pedro Feo (Feio) and Francisco Jorge. All the witness as is >> fitting for the marriage of a Licenciado could read and write. >> >> I think Joam Carvalho was a judge. >> >> Anyway all this is really groovy and juicy. >> >> >> I leave here this info.because I think very strange that none of the >> leading >> genealogists (of reference, I know and studied almost them all but I won't >> quote all their names) referred it. Especially those who wrote the >> Rodrigues de Gouveia title as well as the Lopes Esteves title (patent in >> the >> old and regreted NESOS). Had they seen it they were "condemned" to refer >> this Beatriz Gonçalves de Leam de Chamorra. They would have been as >> stupefied as I am. Did this document eluded them? I don't believe that >> having seen it they would discard it,. They were too knowledgeable to do >> it. >> Besides it has a promising discovery adventure appended to it. So I have >> to >> concede that this document that I got pretty easily escaped their >> attention, >> or was stuck in an old pile behind a desk or something at their time. >> >> >> Of course this interests half Madeira, since half Madeira descends from >> the >> Rodrigues de Gouveia. >> >> >> Cheers, >> >> >> Miguel >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject >> and the body of the message >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Hi Leandro, Yes, it's the very same person. The marriage record of her and Rui Chamorro explicitly says that she is a widow. Cheers, Paulo [email protected] wrote in Wed, 6 Jan 2010 20:45:07 EST: > Hi Miguel > > I have the same isabel marrying Andre Araujo. Info by Agrella. Did she > married twice? Was the same person? > > Thanks > > Leandro > > > In a message dated 1/7/2010 1:46:43 A.M. W. Europe Standard Time, > [email protected] writes: > > I found an old marriage register to which I did not concede much > importance > at the time. Now I see that it connects with a discussion about F.co > Rodrigues de Gouveia we had here a year ago or so. Was he Licenciado or > not? > Was it a forgery? (his marriage document, as Paulo contended). Well, it > seems that it was not. Let's see why. > > Anyway here we go. It's the marriage certificate of Isabel Leal m. Rui > Chamorro, (1577, Sé do Funchal). > > She is the dau, of F.co da Costa de Siqueira and Leonor Rodrigues. (The > Costa de Siqueira were noble, and are relatively well known). Him, Rui > Chamorro, son of Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia (already dead) > and his wife - and here is the surprise ..*.Beatriz Gonçalves de Leam de > Chamorra !!* > > The document is original, The words "Gonçalves de Leam de" were added with > the very same writing of the priest who wrote the document (I have no doubt > about it. It was the priest. It's not an added and clever forgery, i bet > strongly on that). Anyway It's a name extraodinarily long for that time. > And > containing explosive and brand new information. > > The Leão were from Italian origin, merchants. "Mercadores do trauto do > assucar" (They came very early to Madeira, around 1472). They established > themselves in Funchal.They were later and, no surprisingly, connected by > marriage with the Spínolas.. They were upper bourgeoisie, at least. > A Licenciado Diogo de Leão existed around that time. Probably a relative? > > In this document we have evidence that a Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de > Gouveia truly existed. So in face of this document we are forced to say he > is documented and his full name was truly Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia. > Now he was supposed to be married to a just Brites Chamorra by several > leading genealogists (Meneses Vaz included) > > Here from ARM database: Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia, Dr. > Beatriz > Chamorra Sé 1539 46 7 v.º > > But how come no one mentioned the "Gonçalves de Leam" of Beatriz Chamorra? > It was mandatory! Because it's an extremely interesting and central detail > which could lead to a connection, still unknown , between the Leão and the > Chamorros. What is said here is that it (that connection) blatantly > existed. > This Chamorra had Leam (Leão) blood. That no genealogist said it before. > And > that, just amazes me. > > > The witness were João Rodrigues Escórcio - well known character. Joam > Carvalho. Pedro Feo (Feio) and Francisco Jorge. All the witness as is > fitting for the marriage of a Licenciado could read and write. > > I think Joam Carvalho was a judge. > > Anyway all this is really groovy and juicy. > > > I leave here this info.because I think very strange that none of the > leading > genealogists (of reference, I know and studied almost them all but I won't > quote all their names) referred it. Especially those who wrote the > Rodrigues de Gouveia title as well as the Lopes Esteves title (patent in > the > old and regreted NESOS). Had they seen it they were "condemned" to refer > this Beatriz Gonçalves de Leam de Chamorra. They would have been as > stupefied as I am. Did this document eluded them? I don't believe that > having seen it they would discard it,. They were too knowledgeable to do > it. > Besides it has a promising discovery adventure appended to it. So I have to > concede that this document that I got pretty easily escaped their > attention, > or was stuck in an old pile behind a desk or something at their time. > > > Of course this interests half Madeira, since half Madeira descends from the > Rodrigues de Gouveia. > > > Cheers, > > > Miguel > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject > and the body of the message > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Miguel de Castro Henriques <[email protected]> wrote in Thu, 7 Jan 2010 00:46:20 +0000: [..] > Was it a forgery? (his marriage document, as Paulo contended). Well, it > seems that it was not. Let's see why. Apart from it being an obvious forgery, at least to me, it's explicitly declared at the beginning of that Sé parish book by Cabral do Nascimento that it is so, and that no certificate should be ever extracted from that record. Paulo

Hi Miguel, I've already dealt with that document in a former post, I seem to recall. Though I concede that in this case the forgery was better than in others, it's adulterated, nonetheless. Let's see. For it's most part, that document is intact. Isabel Leal was indeed daughter of Francisco da Costa de Sequeira and Leonor Roiz, from Calheta. I don't know if the Costa Sequeira family was noble, but it certainly was the most prominent one in Calheta in their heydays, and probably it was them who founded the primitive church of Calheta, with rights to be buried in the main chapel and so. Their vast domains extended from Jardim do Mar to Achadas da Cruz, with the main house established in Calheta. I don't know if they are well known, to me they were not, and I discovered all this reading the parish books, not something already published. Now, for the Rodrigues de Gouveia. That record says: "Ruy Chamorro fº d[o Ldº Frcº] Roiz de Gouveia já defunto e de sua mulher [Beatriz] Chamorra da freguesia de S. Antº" The parts between [] have been adulterated and overwritten. Apart from it, someone, possibly the same person who did the adulteration, wrote between the lines: "X - Glz de Leão de", supposedly the complete name of "Beatriz". This part between lines is an obvious forgery (or 3rd part note, as you wish), as any correction made to a parish record should be noted and signed by the priest who did it, be it at the end or at the side of the record, precisely to avoid this kind of forgeries. In this case, no information on any correction is made either at the end or at the side of the record, thus the logical conclusion is that it's a later adulteration. No case should be made of that "Gonçalves de Leão" intercalation. Besides all that, it is obvious to anyone looking at the original record that, even if the forger's letter is similar to the priest who wrote the record, the ink is not the same. The original ink is sepia, the forger's ink is pitch black. This difference in the ink colour, which also led to some blurring around the adulterated parts, is the basis for the [] I've put in the excerpt reproduced above. What is undoubtedly written over is "Lcº Frcº". The Roiz is also written over, though it seems to have followed the original wording, as opposed to "Lcdº", which wasn't there before, as it was forcefully written between the particle ("de" or "do") and the father's name. The name "Beatriz" also offers some doubts, as it's written over, and shows an unusual "B". It's written "Breatis", which is ok, I suppose, but the unusual "B", as well as the writing over, gives way to suspicion. In conclusion: Yes, that record was also adulterated. There still is not a single document that would offer no doubt on those individuals. It's amazing the degree and extension of the forgery that has been performed in those family records. That document mentions one Chamorra married to one Gouveia, but we don't know if they are the parents of Gonçalo Rodrigues de Gouveia. We only know they are the parents of Rui Chamorro (s.g.). The title "Lcdº" is an obvious forgery, in tandem with 3 other similar forgeries: The marriage record of Licº Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia with Beatriz Chamorra, and the christening record of the children of Licº Francisco Rodrigues (a real person, and a true Licº) with his wife Ana de Guimarães. In case of doubt, look at the original record, in colour (not a xerox), the adulterations should then be obvious. Cheers, Paulo Miguel de Castro Henriques <[email protected]> wrote in Thu, 7 Jan 2010 00:46:20 +0000: > I found an old marriage register to which I did not concede much importance > at the time. Now I see that it connects with a discussion about F.co > Rodrigues de Gouveia we had here a year ago or so. Was he Licenciado or not? > Was it a forgery? (his marriage document, as Paulo contended). Well, it > seems that it was not. Let's see why. > > Anyway here we go. It's the marriage certificate of Isabel Leal m. Rui > Chamorro, (1577, Sé do Funchal). > > She is the dau, of F.co da Costa de Siqueira and Leonor Rodrigues. (The > Costa de Siqueira were noble, and are relatively well known). Him, Rui > Chamorro, son of Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia (already dead) > and his wife - and here is the surprise ..*.Beatriz Gonçalves de Leam de > Chamorra !!* > > The document is original, The words "Gonçalves de Leam de" were added with > the very same writing of the priest who wrote the document (I have no doubt > about it. It was the priest. It's not an added and clever forgery, i bet > strongly on that). Anyway It's a name extraodinarily long for that time. And > containing explosive and brand new information. > > The Leão were from Italian origin, merchants. "Mercadores do trauto do > assucar" (They came very early to Madeira, around 1472). They established > themselves in Funchal.They were later and, no surprisingly, connected by > marriage with the Spínolas.. They were upper bourgeoisie, at least. > A Licenciado Diogo de Leão existed around that time. Probably a relative? > > In this document we have evidence that a Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de > Gouveia truly existed. So in face of this document we are forced to say he > is documented and his full name was truly Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia. > Now he was supposed to be married to a just Brites Chamorra by several > leading genealogists (Meneses Vaz included) > > Here from ARM database: Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia, Dr. Beatriz > Chamorra Sé 1539 46 7 v.º > > But how come no one mentioned the "Gonçalves de Leam" of Beatriz Chamorra? > It was mandatory! Because it's an extremely interesting and central detail > which could lead to a connection, still unknown , between the Leão and the > Chamorros. What is said here is that it (that connection) blatantly existed. > This Chamorra had Leam (Leão) blood. That no genealogist said it before. And > that, just amazes me. > > > The witness were João Rodrigues Escórcio - well known character. Joam > Carvalho. Pedro Feo (Feio) and Francisco Jorge. All the witness as is > fitting for the marriage of a Licenciado could read and write. > > I think Joam Carvalho was a judge. > > Anyway all this is really groovy and juicy. > > > I leave here this info.because I think very strange that none of the leading > genealogists (of reference, I know and studied almost them all but I won't > quote all their names) referred it. Especially those who wrote the > Rodrigues de Gouveia title as well as the Lopes Esteves title (patent in the > old and regreted NESOS). Had they seen it they were "condemned" to refer > this Beatriz Gonçalves de Leam de Chamorra. They would have been as > stupefied as I am. Did this document eluded them? I don't believe that > having seen it they would discard it,. They were too knowledgeable to do it. > Besides it has a promising discovery adventure appended to it. So I have to > concede that this document that I got pretty easily escaped their attention, > or was stuck in an old pile behind a desk or something at their time. > > > Of course this interests half Madeira, since half Madeira descends from the > Rodrigues de Gouveia. > > > Cheers, > > > Miguel > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Hello Denise, I seem to recall to have transcribed her death record to the list some time ago, but here it is, nevertheless: //Em vinte e três dias do mês de Outubro de 1560 anos faleceu nesta cidade na Rua do Doutor Jerónimo Gomes defronte de casa dele? Isabel Pires dona viúva fez testamento e mandou se enterrar nesta Sé e deixa por testamenteiro seu fº João Gouveia e o mais me reporto ao dito testamento / deixou codecilho que ela em vida de seu marido fizera e ... testamento declaram seus legados e capela e eu João Gomes cura o escrevi // You may ask a copy of the the original record to ARM, though I advise you that it's not an easy reading. ;) You may name "Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia" as you wish. That person is only indirectly documented. I don't even know if his name is Francisco or otherwise, only that he is a brother of João Gouveia and father of Gaspar Rodrigues de Gouveia. As for the Gouveia, it should only be assigned when documented, and it is very well documented for some of the members of the family, though I don't know if it comes from Rodrigo or Isabel. It seems to be, nevertheless, and despite all forgeries, one of the best origins of the Island's Gouveias, in terms of social status. Cheers, Paulo [email protected] wrote in Fri, 9 Jan 2009 10:58:17 EST: > Hello again, > > I have been sifting through some old email one by one! > > A question about the Rodrigues de Gouveia forgery: Based on what is written > below, Isabel Pires should be stripped of the Dona title (done), her husband > I currently have as Rodrigo Anes de Gouveia should be just Rodrigo > Anes...What about their son Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia? Should > he still be > carrying that Gouveia name? What about Francisco's decendants; > should they carry > the name? I would be interested in seeing the death record for Isabel > mentioned below as she is my 14th great-grandmother. If you could > post it that > would be wonderful. When did she die? > > > Denise D'Antona > > Do you know anything about my ancestor Brites Chamorra married to >>> Licencidado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia? >>> >>> The mother of Lioc. Francisco Rodrigues de G. according to the genealogy >>> of >>> the Rodrigues de Gouveia was D.Isabel Pires. Anything new about her? >>> >> >> That is one of the forged records (and a very rude forgery), which is >> telling. >> I can't say nothing more about them than this. And that she was probably >> descendant from either Pedro Chamorro or his brother Afonso. >> I have doubts about the Pais de Carvalho ancestry. >> >> Isabel Pires was not a "Dona", you may strip that title from her. > > > In one codicilo (document) - that you posted - she is called "dona viúva". > As far as I've seen not all women were always referred as "donas viúvas" in > testamentos. Only few of them. That's what leads me to suspect that the > genealogists took that "dona viúva" in testamentos and other documents to > mean the status that she had when alive.. > > >> >> I'll send the her debt record in another post. >> Francisco is most probably the Francisco, son of Rodrigo Anes and Isabel >> Pires, who received "ordens menores" in Funchal in 1538, thus his filiation >> is probably correct. >> > > **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy > steps! > (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1215047751x1200957972/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072%26hmpgID=62%26bcd=De > cemailfooterNO62) > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Precisely, not a Câmara. But Captain of Funchal, nevertheless. ;) I have not been in the CEHA building, though I know where it is. I have spent my time at the ARM (that's were most primary sources are, my preferred) but I have been in permanent contact with one of the members of that project. Rumour has it that NESOS will be back to life sometime in the near future after some technical problems are solved. I certainly hope it will, I miss it very much. Paulo "Fernandes, Jose" <[email protected]> wrote in Thu, 4 Feb 2010 14:48:09 -0500: > Paulo > Yes, the Dr. Vieira's Centre. > Well, I can't wait for the article. Ponta do Sol and definitely > Santo António. Velozas, bettencourts, Chamoorros, Gouveias are from > there, and I full of them all! > A new Captain that would be news! You mean not a Camara? > > José > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Paulo Santos > Perneta > Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 2:04 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Azevedos Cardosos > > What Center? The Atlantic Studies one? > > About the article, I'm trying to make it more interesting by > connecting it to the present day families, without much luck yet. > Nevertheless, it would cast a new light over the Ponta do Sol > families, as well as possibly explain the origins of the Santo António > parish in Funchal. As a side effect, it would rise many questions > about the Dórias commonly believed origin, and with even more luck > will dismount the "Casta Grande" myth, as well as present the first > good study on that Ferreira family. A new Captain Donatário of Funchal > will also appear. Still working on it. :S > > Paulo > > > > "Fernandes, Jose" <[email protected]> wrote in Thu, 4 Feb > 2010 13:38:04 -0500: > >> Paulo >> Please let us know about that issue of Islenha. I would want a copy. >> Any comments on the new building for the Centre? >> José >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [email protected] >> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Paulo Santos >> Perneta >> Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 1:21 PM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Azevedos Cardosos >> >> "Fernandes, Jose" <[email protected]> wrote in Thu, 4 Feb >> 2010 12:46:44 -0500: >> >> [..] >>> Finally welcome back. Were your ears burning? We have often talked >>> about you. It was more, we miss you. >> >> Thanks! I have been working intensively in the last months in >> genealogy, also in preparation for an article to be published in >> Islenha about a missing part of our history... It's hard to do both >> things at the same time, research and debate, and also go on with the >> regular life, eheh... Anyway, I'll try to catch up a little with the >> list now that I'm back in Lisbon. :) >> >> Paulo >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Depending on the birth date of Manuel, Isabel Moreira could be *the* Isabel Moreira who scandalized Santa Cruz in the early 17th century with her "mundane" affairs, until she married Diogo Fernandes Flor, from Porto Santo, in 1613 - and moved herself to that island. If she's that one, she's one of the daughters of Vicente Moreira, seaman, and Margarida Lopes, of reputed Moorish ancestry. Descendant as well of Simão de Lima, "mulato que fora levadeiro das levadas desta vila (Santa Cruz)" - So said António Fernandes o Rompe-Terras, who lived in the Janeiro of Santa Cruz, and died in 1698 with more than 101 years old. :) Paulo Miguel de Castro Henriques <[email protected]> wrote in Tue, 19 Jan 2010 15:46:31 +0000: > No, unfortunately. Leonor da Mata, being da Mata is certainly from the > Mata's from Gaula. Moreira is not a typical name from Gaula. > > Voilà , > > > Miguel > > On Tue, Jan 19, 2010 at 8:57 AM, <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Hi Miguel...do u have the parents of isabel moreira and leonor da mata? >> >> Thank you >> >> Leandro >> >> >> >> >> In a message dated 1/19/2010 3:27:27 A.M. W. Europe Standard Time, >> [email protected] writes: >> >> Almost everyone with ancestors in Gaula in the 17 th century has met >> several times with the flourished signature of Padre Joseph Telles de >> Meneses, also known as Joseph Tello, vigário da Gaula. He was almost >> omnipresent not only celebrating marriages, his role after all, but as >> witness of other marriages, or godfather. He is probably one of the men >> who >> wrote more times his signature in marriage documents. >> He had to had some exuberance and vitality, I thought. >> Well, finally I caught the reverend not acting in a reverend way, >> So the reverend Vigário de Gaula, after all, was human... and so he had >> one >> daughter and one son, from two different women, >> >> The first appropriately called Teresa dos Mártires, from Leonor da Mata. >> and >> from Isabel Moreira, he had Manuel. >> As we say in good and discreet Portuguese, "era fresco!" >> >> All this is referred in PA, Tomo 1-10 parte, pg243. >> >> >> Miguel >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject >> and the body of the message >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Good old grandma Isabel Moreira should have been such a flapper at her time (if there were flappers in the 1620's). "Mulher mundana", as she's called by the vicar of Santa Cruz, António Freire de Andrade in 1701, as he recalls another illegitimate children of her, this time with Fernão Tavares, the young kid of Tomé Mendes de Vasconcelos, renowned knight of Santa Cruz. And, from what you say, it seems that not even the priest has escaped... Half moorish, with African blood on her veins, she should have been pretty as hell. Oh, those infamous Moreira sisters from Santa Cruz, headache of so many family mothers.. ;) She latter settled down in Porto Santo, married with Domingos Fernandes Flor - one could say that her fame in Madeira was ruined, anyway - and had a horde of children - all of them, hopefully, from the Flor. One of them you'll see quite often, signing the parish books of Porto Santo: Pde. Bartolomeu Dias Moreira. Paulo Miguel de Castro Henriques <[email protected]> wrote in Tue, 19 Jan 2010 02:27:17 +0000: > Almost everyone with ancestors in Gaula in the 17 th century has met > several times with the flourished signature of Padre Joseph Telles de > Meneses, also known as Joseph Tello, vigário da Gaula. He was almost > omnipresent not only celebrating marriages, his role after all, but as > witness of other marriages, or godfather. He is probably one of the men who > wrote more times his signature in marriage documents. > He had to had some exuberance and vitality, I thought. > Well, finally I caught the reverend not acting in a reverend way, > So the reverend Vigário de Gaula, after all, was human... and so he had one > daughter and one son, from two different women, > > The first appropriately called Teresa dos Mártires, from Leonor da Mata. and > from Isabel Moreira, he had Manuel. > As we say in good and discreet Portuguese, "era fresco!" > > All this is referred in PA, Tomo 1-10 parte, pg243. > > > Miguel > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

What Center? The Atlantic Studies one? About the article, I'm trying to make it more interesting by connecting it to the present day families, without much luck yet. Nevertheless, it would cast a new light over the Ponta do Sol families, as well as possibly explain the origins of the Santo António parish in Funchal. As a side effect, it would rise many questions about the Dórias commonly believed origin, and with even more luck will dismount the "Casta Grande" myth, as well as present the first good study on that Ferreira family. A new Captain Donatário of Funchal will also appear. Still working on it. :S Paulo "Fernandes, Jose" <[email protected]> wrote in Thu, 4 Feb 2010 13:38:04 -0500: > Paulo > Please let us know about that issue of Islenha. I would want a copy. > Any comments on the new building for the Centre? > José > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Paulo Santos > Perneta > Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 1:21 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Azevedos Cardosos > > "Fernandes, Jose" <[email protected]> wrote in Thu, 4 Feb > 2010 12:46:44 -0500: > > [..] >> Finally welcome back. Were your ears burning? We have often talked >> about you. It was more, we miss you. > > Thanks! I have been working intensively in the last months in > genealogy, also in preparation for an article to be published in > Islenha about a missing part of our history... It's hard to do both > things at the same time, research and debate, and also go on with the > regular life, eheh... Anyway, I'll try to catch up a little with the > list now that I'm back in Lisbon. :) > > Paulo > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

A slave's daughter, that is, not a daughter's slave :S. And former slave, as by 1542, when she had the Denim, she had already been freed. Paulo Paulo Santos Perneta <[email protected]> wrote in Thu, 04 Feb 2010 18:49:02 +0000: > The god of genealogists works in mysterious ways, but I have the most > serious doubts about that. Her parents were a workman and a daughter's > slave, I wouldn't expect that much from that side. :S > > Paulo > > Miguel de Castro Henriques <[email protected]> wrote > in Tue, 26 Jan 2010 12:28:15 +0000: > >> Hello José, >> >> Thanks. >> >> Catarina Rodrigues might be a Rodrigues Escórcio or connected with the >> Escórcios.. >> >> >> Mgiuel >> >> 2010/1/25 Fernandes, Jose <[email protected]> >> >>> I must have these people, but no luck. >>> However, there is a new website about Madeira that members might be >>> interested in www.visitmadeira.pt >>> Great 3d vistas. >>> >>> Try it. >>> José Fernandes >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: [email protected] [mailto: >>> [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro Henriques >>> Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 9:57 AM >>> To: [email protected] >>> Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Martinho de Góis and Catarina Rodrigues >>> >>> Hello all, >>> >>> >>> Has anyone info. about Martinho de Gópis m (1590, Caniço) Catarina >>> Rodrigues? >>> >>> Thanks in advance, >>> >>> >>> Miguel >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

The god of genealogists works in mysterious ways, but I have the most serious doubts about that. Her parents were a workman and a daughter's slave, I wouldn't expect that much from that side. :S Paulo Miguel de Castro Henriques <[email protected]> wrote in Tue, 26 Jan 2010 12:28:15 +0000: > Hello José, > > Thanks. > > Catarina Rodrigues might be a Rodrigues Escórcio or connected with the > Escórcios.. > > > Mgiuel > > 2010/1/25 Fernandes, Jose <[email protected]> > >> I must have these people, but no luck. >> However, there is a new website about Madeira that members might be >> interested in www.visitmadeira.pt >> Great 3d vistas. >> >> Try it. >> José Fernandes >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [email protected] [mailto: >> [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro Henriques >> Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 9:57 AM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Martinho de Góis and Catarina Rodrigues >> >> Hello all, >> >> >> Has anyone info. about Martinho de Gópis m (1590, Caniço) Catarina >> Rodrigues? >> >> Thanks in advance, >> >> >> Miguel >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Most certainly. He: Son of André Martins, farmer, and Beatriz Nunes "do Castelo", p. greatson of Estevão Martins and Iria de Góis, m. grandson of António Gonçalves (another one) and Maria... She: Daughter of João Roiz Fraga , workman, and Inês Álvares, m. granddaughter of Violante ÁLvares, mulata, slave of Inês Gonçalves (wife of João Barradas). Violante had children also from João Dias (teh Tinims or Denims) and later married Pedro Álvares, a farmer. They lived at Moinhos, Caniço. Beatriz Nunes is probably from the Calaças, as the surname appears on a grandson (Maria Calaça, d. of Martim de Góis and Catª Roiz). Paulo Miguel de Castro Henriques <[email protected]> wrote in Sat, 23 Jan 2010 14:56:51 +0000: > Hello all, > > > Has anyone info. about Martinho de Gópis m (1590, Caniço) Catarina > Rodrigues? > > Thanks in advance, > > > Miguel > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

"Fernandes, Jose" <[email protected]> wrote in Thu, 4 Feb 2010 12:46:44 -0500: [..] > Finally welcome back. Were your ears burning? We have often talked > about you. It was more, we miss you. Thanks! I have been working intensively in the last months in genealogy, also in preparation for an article to be published in Islenha about a missing part of our history... It's hard to do both things at the same time, research and debate, and also go on with the regular life, eheh... Anyway, I'll try to catch up a little with the list now that I'm back in Lisbon. :) Paulo

Hi José, About Henrique Alemão: In fact, at this point, I'm more inclined to believe that he could really be the missed King of Poland. There is a number of contemporary evidence that supports this guess, most of all a letter of some Polish Knight to the pope saying that the King is hiding in the Portuguese islands. A number of other Polish or German men seem to have accompanied him, as we can see from the Carta de Sesmarias da Madalena. One of them is André Alemão, latter known as André de França, ancestor of the Madeira França family. About the Gago, in the case of João Gago it is undoubtedly a surname, not a nickname. The Gagos were fishermen and seamen, as it seems from Algarve. They are possibly (even probably) related to the Azorean Gagos, who gave birth to one of the most noble families in those islands (Gagos da Câmara). However, in Madeira, the surname ceased to be used still in the 16th century. Answering your question, if you have family of seamen or fishermen from Funchal, it is very probable that you descend from João Gago. The fishermen/seamen class was quite closed, and they mostly married among their ilk. That's how many Azorean families entered in Madeira, by marriage with some Maderian seaman who regularly visited those Islands. Cheers, Paulo "Fernandes, Jose" <[email protected]> wrote in Thu, 4 Feb 2010 12:46:44 -0500: > Paulo > Congratulations on your find. Did you find out if the name Gago was > a nickname, i.e. speech impediment? Any relation to Gago Coutinho? > This may mean that the name has another origin. > > I too walked though that street many times in my youth. Let's see. I > do have some connection to the Aldramas. Any other well-known > families that João descendants may connect with? > How come we know so much about this fisherman? > > I am sorry with your disappointment with Henrique Alemão. It is such > a wonderful myth! The good thing is that you not yet demystified > the myth, or have I missed that? > > Finally welcome back. Were your ears burning? We have often talked > about you. It was more, we miss you. > > Cheers, > José Fernandes > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Paulo Santos > Perneta > Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 12:25 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Azevedos Cardosos > > Speaking of "prizes"... > > In the last month I had 2 great discoveries, which gave me the two > best genealogical "prizes" of recent times. > > You see, I always wanted to descend from João Gago the fisherman. You > could give me all the poets, kings and noblemen, but each time I > cruised that street in Funchal it annoyed me that I had not a decent > descent from him (in my lines or otherwise), especially when he left > so many direct descendants. > > João Gago the fisherman has his place in the Pantheon of our first > settlers. He was THE fisherman by excellence, father of a progeny of > fishermen and seamen, the sea people who lived and worked in that so > much beloved, omnipresent, nostalgic sea that is part of the soul of > every Maderian. So well known he was, that the street where he lived > was known - and named - after him. It was João Gago's street in the > 15th century, and it still is today, right there, next to the > cathedral, already there when there was still not a cathedral, and > Funchal was the most promising village of his time. > > Anyway, I wanted to be João Gago descendant, and so I am - as I found > out after some merges I was doing last month. And if you happen to > descend from Pedro Fernandes de Chaves and Jerónima Caldeira (the > Aldramas), you too have your passport to João Gago the fisherman, and > his his wife Eva Gomes. :) > > The other breakthrough was in my great-grandmother Clara Pereira, from > Monte, whose Pereiras were an early dead-end until very recently. Then > I decided to rummage over the Monte christenings in the quest for the > holy Pereiras, and TCHARAM - out of the last of those apparently > boring Pereiras (in fact his wife, Isidoria Maria) came a pristine > line of the best Madeira nobility. Ok, ok, not so pristine, as there > is a bastardy, but it was quite unexpected, nevertheless. > > Isidoria Maria, 6th great-grandmother, wife of José Pereira, living in > Monte - Quinta dos Reis, then Levada da Corujeira - Marmeleiros - > where my great-grandmother family still lives). Isidoria was in fact > daughter of Manuel de Nóbrega Duarte , from Gaula (son of Manuel de > Nóbrega Duarte, ancestor of the Martins de Nóbrega, anyone with family > in Santo da Serra would be familiar with them) and D. Isabel de > Menezes, from Porto da Cruz, daughter of João de Abreu e Freitas and > D.Mariana de Menezes, this one illegitimate (so said the genealogies, > the marriage records are silent about her mother, while remarking who > the father is) daughter of Capitão Jorge Moniz de Menezes, son of > Diogo Pereira de Menezes (tº Homens de Sousa) and D.Catarina Leme de > Aguiar (tº Morais). > > With some bias, I could wonder if the legendary prettiness and class > of my Pereira great-great-aunts from Monte derived from that new found > Olympus. However, after seeing some paintings of the most prominent > Madeira nobility, I'm rather prone to believe that the prettiness came > from somewhere else. As for the class, they certainly got it at the > time they lived in Boston (my dear American aunts! :)). > > Anyway, we were speaking about Henri the German, my former ancestor: > Not anymore. Sometime ago I got tired of hearing the cries of FAKE! > FAKE! FAKE! coming from my brain each time I looked at the ancestors > of Manuel Afonso Sentido and Guiomar Gomes, supported on some França > Dória genealogy mentioned in Ilhas de Zargo. And so I finally > unconnected them, putting an end to those tremendously faked > ancestries to the Henriques Alemão and Henriques de Noronha, which > were bringing more shame than glory. > > As a reward, I got the answer for one of the most interesting riddles > about another setting of Henriques - the Henriques Abreu, also from > Camara de Lobos. This time a genuine, credible connection, which > brought on the Henriques das Alcaçovas, but that's another story... :) > > Cheers, > > Paulo > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

While mentioning the Madeira poets, let's not forget Francisco Álvares de Nóbrega, the so called "Camões pequeno" who, as I found out recently, is close family indeed (both descending from Sebastião Duarte and Maria ed Nóbrega, parents of Manuel de Nóbrega Duarte mentioned in the last post). Also: *Francisco de Paula Medina e Vasconcelos, who wrote the despised Zargueida (5th cousin, married to a 2nd cousin). *The Aónio (Antº de Carvalhal Esmeraldo), 5th cousin. *Francisco de Vasconcelos "o Narizinho", 3rd cousin. *Fcº de Vasconcelos Coutinho (from the XXN Matos), 5th cousin. *Jorge da Câmara, 3rd cousin. *Manuel de Noronha (Cancioneiro Geral), uncle *Manuel Pontes de Gouveia, 3rd cousin From direct knowledge, before starting working in genealogy, I only knew about 2 poets related to my family: Cabral do Nascimento (2nd cousin) and Edmundo de Bettencourt (said to be a close cousin, but the connection seems to be a lady living in Paul do Mar, aunt to both him and my grand-ma, at whose house both of them used to spend part of the Summer). And, last but not the least, Manuel Gonçalves (Oh, those Gonçalves!) the Feiticeiro do Norte: http://bmfunchal.blogs.sapo.pt/2470.html Though I've not still worked his genealogy, he's undoubtedly family, besides being a close friend to my great-grand-father and grand-father. :) Cheers, Paulo Miguel de Castro Henriques <[email protected]> wrote in Wed, 27 Jan 2010 14:34:53 +0000: > Cece, > > Yes the ACs are one of the more tough títulos to go through. But I like it > difficult. > I am on it since 5 years or so.I might have not progressed half an inch. But > then I am like a crocodile, as soon as it bites something never let go. > Your prize there is HA., the top prize of all madeiran genealogical > research, so better think twice before giving up. > > > Speaking about that who or what would be the top treasures to find in one's > own tree? (if there is such a thing as "own tree", because after some > generations any tree inter-links with other people's trees in many ways) > > Anyway, personally, for my family panteon,: the poets, the poets first of > all, João Gomes, Tristão das Damas, João Rodrigues Cabral, Gomes Leal, > Cabral do Nascimento, Herberto Helder, António de Aragão...I got a direct > connection with the 3 first, an indirect with Gomes Leal ) (the greatest > portuguese symbolist poet) and Herberto is simply the best from the > contemporaries of all Portugal and Palops. I am investogating his Ferreiras. > With Cabral do Nascimento, and indirect connection he was linked to the > Caiados, and also the Cabrais, and one day I'll find a connection with the > Rodrigues Lourenço, from Ponta do Pargo, and voilà, > > Then as second best I treasure the navigators themselves: Zarco, and his > first companions (I already posted a list of them all, collected by prof. > Joel Serrão, a great madeiran and historian). I think it was one of my first > posts on this list. > > Then I don't know why, well I know a bit why ( they're such a chaotic, > complex and tragic family) the first Perestrelos. > > Then the first settlers and sesmeiros. > > I am aware that I should have a top ten list, well, but that's a start. > > Fialgos and nobles don't interest me that much. But they are generally nice > to find because sometimes they lead to medieval Portugal, my favorite > period. generally they are prolific people, not only within the realms of > their oficial family, but ouit of it. Bastards are so many. Natural sons and > daugthers. Some were carefully hiddedn, others not so much. I got loads. > They become secondary lines. They are sinuous, baroque, and romantic if not > libertine. I like complexity, caracther, hidden things, you see. > > What I don't liked (in my research) was to stumble upon any Gonçalves.,As > research progressed they would lead to other Gonçalves endlessly. My! How > they like that name Gonçalves. And I have loads of them in my tree, But > recently I believe I started to overcome that prejudice against Gonçalves > because a couple of Gonçalves lead me to the JRT, "O Gordo" (and I don't > know why I always liked that guy, now I know why, noblesse oblige) , also > Afonso da Mata, and an interesting Isabel Arrais de Mendonça. So, Ok, there > are Gonçalves and Gonçalves. One of the misleading Gonçalves I encountered > was a Gonçalves da Câmara ( 16 th century). > > When one starts this genealogical saga one's own tree is central. (at least > for me it was) Then "one's own" treesomehow starts to loose its importance > or centrality. One discovers one descends from all mankind. One own's tree > opens its vistas to a broader picture: it becomes like a genealogical > mandala, all including. > > Fun how genealogy helps psychological growth, and becomes a tool for the > open mind. > > Well, hope I did'nt bore you with my philosophical considerations. Great > weather in here, though terribly cold. (for us, cold is 7 º C above zero). > > > Miguel > > On Wed, Jan 27, 2010 at 1:43 PM, Cece Camara <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> Both the Roz and Isaura were taken directly from the Azevedos Cardosos by >> Pelo Conego Fernando Meneses Vaz. >> This one has been a nightmare for me to work as he uses different names for >> the same person in many places...and in addition there appears to be some >> possible errors in connections. >> I'm about to give up on this one ;-) >> >> Cece >> >> >> _____ >> >> From: Miguel de Castro Henriques [mailto:[email protected] >> ] >> Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 7:23 AM >> To: [email protected]; [email protected] >> Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Azevedos Cardosos >> >> >> Hello Cece, >> >> Let's start somewhere. >> >> >> Raz or Rás not Roz. It's a full name, not an abbreviation of Rodrigues. It >> could be derived from Arrais. >> >> Isoa not Isaura. Isoa is derived from Iseult or Yseult. From the classical >> Tristan and Iseult Arthurian story. Centuries before de Da Vinci Code, >> Madeiran gentry, especially from Gaula, was very keen on giving Arthurian >> names to their issue: Lançarote, from Lancelot. Galaz, from Sir Galahad, >> Tristão from Sir Tristram. (As a name, Isaura only appears in Madeira in >> the >> 19 th century, so it is quite a modern name) >> >> Título Henriques Alemão, starts with Henrique Alemâo, da Madalena do Mar, >> one of the most mysterious figures from Madeira Island. He had a title: >> Cavaleiro da Ordem de Santa Catarina do Monte Sinai. married Senhorinha >> Anes, from Algarvian and noble origins. So much has been written about >> Henrique Alemão that it is difficult to say more. He is madeiran myth >> Número >> Um, since then and probably will stay. (More than Ronaldo...). Nobiliários >> and legend had him as "Prince Polónio", prince from Poland. In those times >> anyone from north of France upwards was whatever his country "Alemão". The >> myth reports that he was actually the King of Poland himself, Ladislas >> Jagiello, who disappeared after the battle of Varna against the turks >> commanded by the legendary Sultan Ammurates. Books have been written by >> celebrated madeiran authors like Reis Gomes (O Cavaleiro de Santa >> Catarina). >> So what would you want more: a medieval king, a warrior, who disappears >> from >> the historical scene, only to re-emerge years later as a errant Knight in >> Madeira island? He never claimed he was that lost King. >> He was treated by Zarco, the Captain Donatário, with exceptional >> consideration and regards. When invited to Zarco's house - and Zarco was >> the >> leading man in Madeira, Zarco in person - not a mere servant - would serve >> him his meals, in "baixela de prata." This tells loads about the status of >> the caracther. >> When he was recognised as the lost King of Polland by several monks who had >> come from Polland to Madeira to implore him to return to his kingom, he >> dismissed them saying: Fools! >> >> But it seems that some time later the King of Portugal sent a ship to >> Madeira to bring him to Portugal. legend has that it was that when he was >> going by boat from Madalena do Mar to Funchal, to get on board, some rocks >> from a cliff fell down and the boat sank, and all the crew and passengers >> perished. Parts of his body were recovered from the sea. My brother, in >> Madeira saw his stone grave in which it is inscribed the Wheel of St. >> Catarina, the only coat of arms he ever used in Madeira. >> Right now in the most charming town of the whole world, Lisbon, at Museu de >> Arte Antiga there is currently an exhibition of madeiran paintings. One of >> the paintings, the most famous (from the 15 th century, Flanders school) is >> supposed to represent Henrique Alemão,posing as Saint Joachim, and >> Senhorinha Anes, as Saint Anne - the parents of the Virgin Mary. >> >> To be continued some day. >> >> Miguel >> >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Jan 27, 2010 at 2:01 AM, Cece Camara <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> Just working this genealogia as the first few names in it are direct for me >> (namely Catarina Pires de Quintal, daughter of Pedro Lopes de Quintal). >> Further on I came across Nuno Goncalves Cardoso who married (it says) >> Catarina de Roz daughter of Nicolau de Roz and Isaura Perestrello. >> I've never seen the name Roz before - and it does not appear to be an >> abbreviation for Rodrigues as I initially thought. It also says they are >> from the Titulo de Henriques Alemao- another one I am not familiar with. >> Just thought I'd see if anyone can shed any more light on either of these >> names. >> Cece >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> >> Internal Virus Database is out of date. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 8.5.432 / Virus Database: 270.14.131/2609 - Release Date: 01/09/10 >> 07:35:00 >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Speaking of "prizes"... In the last month I had 2 great discoveries, which gave me the two best genealogical "prizes" of recent times. You see, I always wanted to descend from João Gago the fisherman. You could give me all the poets, kings and noblemen, but each time I cruised that street in Funchal it annoyed me that I had not a decent descent from him (in my lines or otherwise), especially when he left so many direct descendants. João Gago the fisherman has his place in the Pantheon of our first settlers. He was THE fisherman by excellence, father of a progeny of fishermen and seamen, the sea people who lived and worked in that so much beloved, omnipresent, nostalgic sea that is part of the soul of every Maderian. So well known he was, that the street where he lived was known - and named - after him. It was João Gago's street in the 15th century, and it still is today, right there, next to the cathedral, already there when there was still not a cathedral, and Funchal was the most promising village of his time. Anyway, I wanted to be João Gago descendant, and so I am - as I found out after some merges I was doing last month. And if you happen to descend from Pedro Fernandes de Chaves and Jerónima Caldeira (the Aldramas), you too have your passport to João Gago the fisherman, and his his wife Eva Gomes. :) The other breakthrough was in my great-grandmother Clara Pereira, from Monte, whose Pereiras were an early dead-end until very recently. Then I decided to rummage over the Monte christenings in the quest for the holy Pereiras, and TCHARAM - out of the last of those apparently boring Pereiras (in fact his wife, Isidoria Maria) came a pristine line of the best Madeira nobility. Ok, ok, not so pristine, as there is a bastardy, but it was quite unexpected, nevertheless. Isidoria Maria, 6th great-grandmother, wife of José Pereira, living in Monte - Quinta dos Reis, then Levada da Corujeira - Marmeleiros - where my great-grandmother family still lives). Isidoria was in fact daughter of Manuel de Nóbrega Duarte , from Gaula (son of Manuel de Nóbrega Duarte, ancestor of the Martins de Nóbrega, anyone with family in Santo da Serra would be familiar with them) and D. Isabel de Menezes, from Porto da Cruz, daughter of João de Abreu e Freitas and D.Mariana de Menezes, this one illegitimate (so said the genealogies, the marriage records are silent about her mother, while remarking who the father is) daughter of Capitão Jorge Moniz de Menezes, son of Diogo Pereira de Menezes (tº Homens de Sousa) and D.Catarina Leme de Aguiar (tº Morais). With some bias, I could wonder if the legendary prettiness and class of my Pereira great-great-aunts from Monte derived from that new found Olympus. However, after seeing some paintings of the most prominent Madeira nobility, I'm rather prone to believe that the prettiness came from somewhere else. As for the class, they certainly got it at the time they lived in Boston (my dear American aunts! :)). Anyway, we were speaking about Henri the German, my former ancestor: Not anymore. Sometime ago I got tired of hearing the cries of FAKE! FAKE! FAKE! coming from my brain each time I looked at the ancestors of Manuel Afonso Sentido and Guiomar Gomes, supported on some França Dória genealogy mentioned in Ilhas de Zargo. And so I finally unconnected them, putting an end to those tremendously faked ancestries to the Henriques Alemão and Henriques de Noronha, which were bringing more shame than glory. As a reward, I got the answer for one of the most interesting riddles about another setting of Henriques - the Henriques Abreu, also from Camara de Lobos. This time a genuine, credible connection, which brought on the Henriques das Alcaçovas, but that's another story... :) Cheers, Paulo Miguel de Castro Henriques <[email protected]> wrote in Wed, 27 Jan 2010 14:34:53 +0000: > Cece, > > Yes the ACs are one of the more tough títulos to go through. But I like it > difficult. > I am on it since 5 years or so.I might have not progressed half an inch. But > then I am like a crocodile, as soon as it bites something never let go. > Your prize there is HA., the top prize of all madeiran genealogical > research, so better think twice before giving up. > > > Speaking about that who or what would be the top treasures to find in one's > own tree? (if there is such a thing as "own tree", because after some > generations any tree inter-links with other people's trees in many ways) > > Anyway, personally, for my family panteon,: the poets, the poets first of > all, João Gomes, Tristão das Damas, João Rodrigues Cabral, Gomes Leal, > Cabral do Nascimento, Herberto Helder, António de Aragão...I got a direct > connection with the 3 first, an indirect with Gomes Leal ) (the greatest > portuguese symbolist poet) and Herberto is simply the best from the > contemporaries of all Portugal and Palops. I am investogating his Ferreiras. > With Cabral do Nascimento, and indirect connection he was linked to the > Caiados, and also the Cabrais, and one day I'll find a connection with the > Rodrigues Lourenço, from Ponta do Pargo, and voilà, > > Then as second best I treasure the navigators themselves: Zarco, and his > first companions (I already posted a list of them all, collected by prof. > Joel Serrão, a great madeiran and historian). I think it was one of my first > posts on this list. > > Then I don't know why, well I know a bit why ( they're such a chaotic, > complex and tragic family) the first Perestrelos. > > Then the first settlers and sesmeiros. > > I am aware that I should have a top ten list, well, but that's a start. > > Fialgos and nobles don't interest me that much. But they are generally nice > to find because sometimes they lead to medieval Portugal, my favorite > period. generally they are prolific people, not only within the realms of > their oficial family, but ouit of it. Bastards are so many. Natural sons and > daugthers. Some were carefully hiddedn, others not so much. I got loads. > They become secondary lines. They are sinuous, baroque, and romantic if not > libertine. I like complexity, caracther, hidden things, you see. > > What I don't liked (in my research) was to stumble upon any Gonçalves.,As > research progressed they would lead to other Gonçalves endlessly. My! How > they like that name Gonçalves. And I have loads of them in my tree, But > recently I believe I started to overcome that prejudice against Gonçalves > because a couple of Gonçalves lead me to the JRT, "O Gordo" (and I don't > know why I always liked that guy, now I know why, noblesse oblige) , also > Afonso da Mata, and an interesting Isabel Arrais de Mendonça. So, Ok, there > are Gonçalves and Gonçalves. One of the misleading Gonçalves I encountered > was a Gonçalves da Câmara ( 16 th century). > > When one starts this genealogical saga one's own tree is central. (at least > for me it was) Then "one's own" treesomehow starts to loose its importance > or centrality. One discovers one descends from all mankind. One own's tree > opens its vistas to a broader picture: it becomes like a genealogical > mandala, all including. > > Fun how genealogy helps psychological growth, and becomes a tool for the > open mind. > > Well, hope I did'nt bore you with my philosophical considerations. Great > weather in here, though terribly cold. (for us, cold is 7 º C above zero). > > > Miguel > > On Wed, Jan 27, 2010 at 1:43 PM, Cece Camara <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> Both the Roz and Isaura were taken directly from the Azevedos Cardosos by >> Pelo Conego Fernando Meneses Vaz. >> This one has been a nightmare for me to work as he uses different names for >> the same person in many places...and in addition there appears to be some >> possible errors in connections. >> I'm about to give up on this one ;-) >> >> Cece >> >> >> _____ >> >> From: Miguel de Castro Henriques [mailto:[email protected] >> ] >> Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 7:23 AM >> To: [email protected]; [email protected] >> Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Azevedos Cardosos >> >> >> Hello Cece, >> >> Let's start somewhere. >> >> >> Raz or Rás not Roz. It's a full name, not an abbreviation of Rodrigues. It >> could be derived from Arrais. >> >> Isoa not Isaura. Isoa is derived from Iseult or Yseult. From the classical >> Tristan and Iseult Arthurian story. Centuries before de Da Vinci Code, >> Madeiran gentry, especially from Gaula, was very keen on giving Arthurian >> names to their issue: Lançarote, from Lancelot. Galaz, from Sir Galahad, >> Tristão from Sir Tristram. (As a name, Isaura only appears in Madeira in >> the >> 19 th century, so it is quite a modern name) >> >> Título Henriques Alemão, starts with Henrique Alemâo, da Madalena do Mar, >> one of the most mysterious figures from Madeira Island. He had a title: >> Cavaleiro da Ordem de Santa Catarina do Monte Sinai. married Senhorinha >> Anes, from Algarvian and noble origins. So much has been written about >> Henrique Alemão that it is difficult to say more. He is madeiran myth >> Número >> Um, since then and probably will stay. (More than Ronaldo...). Nobiliários >> and legend had him as "Prince Polónio", prince from Poland. In those times >> anyone from north of France upwards was whatever his country "Alemão". The >> myth reports that he was actually the King of Poland himself, Ladislas >> Jagiello, who disappeared after the battle of Varna against the turks >> commanded by the legendary Sultan Ammurates. Books have been written by >> celebrated madeiran authors like Reis Gomes (O Cavaleiro de Santa >> Catarina). >> So what would you want more: a medieval king, a warrior, who disappears >> from >> the historical scene, only to re-emerge years later as a errant Knight in >> Madeira island? He never claimed he was that lost King. >> He was treated by Zarco, the Captain Donatário, with exceptional >> consideration and regards. When invited to Zarco's house - and Zarco was >> the >> leading man in Madeira, Zarco in person - not a mere servant - would serve >> him his meals, in "baixela de prata." This tells loads about the status of >> the caracther. >> When he was recognised as the lost King of Polland by several monks who had >> come from Polland to Madeira to implore him to return to his kingom, he >> dismissed them saying: Fools! >> >> But it seems that some time later the King of Portugal sent a ship to >> Madeira to bring him to Portugal. legend has that it was that when he was >> going by boat from Madalena do Mar to Funchal, to get on board, some rocks >> from a cliff fell down and the boat sank, and all the crew and passengers >> perished. Parts of his body were recovered from the sea. My brother, in >> Madeira saw his stone grave in which it is inscribed the Wheel of St. >> Catarina, the only coat of arms he ever used in Madeira. >> Right now in the most charming town of the whole world, Lisbon, at Museu de >> Arte Antiga there is currently an exhibition of madeiran paintings. One of >> the paintings, the most famous (from the 15 th century, Flanders school) is >> supposed to represent Henrique Alemão,posing as Saint Joachim, and >> Senhorinha Anes, as Saint Anne - the parents of the Virgin Mary. >> >> To be continued some day. >> >> Miguel >> >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Jan 27, 2010 at 2:01 AM, Cece Camara <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> Just working this genealogia as the first few names in it are direct for me >> (namely Catarina Pires de Quintal, daughter of Pedro Lopes de Quintal). >> Further on I came across Nuno Goncalves Cardoso who married (it says) >> Catarina de Roz daughter of Nicolau de Roz and Isaura Perestrello. >> I've never seen the name Roz before - and it does not appear to be an >> abbreviation for Rodrigues as I initially thought. It also says they are >> from the Titulo de Henriques Alemao- another one I am not familiar with. >> Just thought I'd see if anyone can shed any more light on either of these >> names. >> Cece >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> >> Internal Virus Database is out of date. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 8.5.432 / Virus Database: 270.14.131/2609 - Release Date: 01/09/10 >> 07:35:00 >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Hello Miguel, Happy New year, hope you have had a nice Xmas among your family. :) Comments inline: Miguel de Castro Henriques <[email protected]> wrote in Wed, 27 Jan 2010 13:23:07 +0000: [..] > Raz or Rás not Roz. It's a full name, not an abbreviation of Rodrigues. It > could be derived from Arrais. Hmm... Doubtful. Arrais is a very persistent name, and I've never seen any "derivation" from it. It was Arrais in the 1400's, it's Arrais today, it has always been Arrais (a common portuguese word, by the way). I favour the hypothesis of a foreign origin - Flemish, according to... Carolina Michaelis, I seem to recall. > Isoa not Isaura. Isoa is derived from Iseult or Yseult. From the classical > Tristan and Iseult Arthurian story. Centuries before de Da Vinci Code, > Madeiran gentry, especially from Gaula, was very keen on giving Arthurian > names to their issue: Lançarote, from Lancelot. Galaz, from Sir Galahad, > Tristão from Sir Tristram. (As a name, Isaura only appears in Madeira in the > 19 th century, so it is quite a modern name) Let's not forget the horrendous Grismunda (Grismunda da Mata, from Gaula, married to Francisco Dias de Gouveia, so it seems, my 12th great grand-mother). Another literary character, I guess, is Gridónia. Those names are also somewhat common in slaves, most probably named after the literary vanities of their masters. :) > Título Henriques Alemão, starts with Henrique Alemâo, da Madalena do Mar, > one of the most mysterious figures from Madeira Island. He had a title: > Cavaleiro da Ordem de Santa Catarina do Monte Sinai. And documented as such. :) > married Senhorinha > Anes, from Algarvian and noble origins. Algarvian? Says who? [..] > My brother, in > Madeira saw his stone grave in which it is inscribed the Wheel of St. > Catarina, the only coat of arms he ever used in Madeira. That tombstone has a void coat of arms. Apparently there are some animals holding the coat, but there's nothing inside. It's not as if it has been erased, but rather as if it's some unfinished work. Anyway, It's not even certain to who that tombstone belongs... :-\ Cheers, Paulo

Hello Cece, Hope you have had a merry Xmas and an happy new year. :) Catarina de Raz, I believe, rather than Roz, at least it's how it's written most of the time in their signatures: His brother Luís de Raz signed "Luis Daras", maybe the name is Aras or Arras, which brings potential confusion with the Arrais (not related, as far as I know). I seem to recall reading somewhere - Catarina Michaelis? - that it's from Flemish origin, but I don't know any basis for that. Anyway, how do you descend from that people? Cheers, Paulo Cece Camara <[email protected]> wrote in Tue, 26 Jan 2010 20:01:21 -0600: > Just working this genealogia as the first few names in it are direct for me > (namely Catarina Pires de Quintal, daughter of Pedro Lopes de Quintal). > Further on I came across Nuno Goncalves Cardoso who married (it says) > Catarina de Roz daughter of Nicolau de Roz and Isaura Perestrello. > I've never seen the name Roz before - and it does not appear to be an > abbreviation for Rodrigues as I initially thought. It also says they are > from the Titulo de Henriques Alemao- another one I am not familiar with. > Just thought I'd see if anyone can shed any more light on either of these > names. > Cece > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Paulo, This guy (?) is my great (12) grandfather. When you have time please refer to a posting from Miguel in the last 2 months. He was excited about an Italian connection to this family and dismissed any forgery allegations. Your comments will obviously most welcome. Don't you also share this line? José -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Paulo Santos Perneta Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 3:25 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Rodrigues de Gouveia forgery question Hello Denise, I seem to recall to have transcribed her death record to the list some time ago, but here it is, nevertheless: //Em vinte e três dias do mês de Outubro de 1560 anos faleceu nesta cidade na Rua do Doutor Jerónimo Gomes defronte de casa dele? Isabel Pires dona viúva fez testamento e mandou se enterrar nesta Sé e deixa por testamenteiro seu fº João Gouveia e o mais me reporto ao dito testamento / deixou codecilho que ela em vida de seu marido fizera e ... testamento declaram seus legados e capela e eu João Gomes cura o escrevi // You may ask a copy of the the original record to ARM, though I advise you that it's not an easy reading. ;) You may name "Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia" as you wish. That person is only indirectly documented. I don't even know if his name is Francisco or otherwise, only that he is a brother of João Gouveia and father of Gaspar Rodrigues de Gouveia. As for the Gouveia, it should only be assigned when documented, and it is very well documented for some of the members of the family, though I don't know if it comes from Rodrigo or Isabel. It seems to be, nevertheless, and despite all forgeries, one of the best origins of the Island's Gouveias, in terms of social status. Cheers, Paulo [email protected] wrote in Fri, 9 Jan 2009 10:58:17 EST: > Hello again, > > I have been sifting through some old email one by one! > > A question about the Rodrigues de Gouveia forgery: Based on what is written > below, Isabel Pires should be stripped of the Dona title (done), her husband > I currently have as Rodrigo Anes de Gouveia should be just Rodrigo > Anes...What about their son Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia? Should > he still be > carrying that Gouveia name? What about Francisco's decendants; > should they carry > the name? I would be interested in seeing the death record for Isabel > mentioned below as she is my 14th great-grandmother. If you could > post it that > would be wonderful. When did she die? > > > Denise D'Antona > > Do you know anything about my ancestor Brites Chamorra married to >>> Licencidado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia? >>> >>> The mother of Lioc. Francisco Rodrigues de G. according to the genealogy >>> of >>> the Rodrigues de Gouveia was D.Isabel Pires. Anything new about her? >>> >> >> That is one of the forged records (and a very rude forgery), which is >> telling. >> I can't say nothing more about them than this. And that she was probably >> descendant from either Pedro Chamorro or his brother Afonso. >> I have doubts about the Pais de Carvalho ancestry. >> >> Isabel Pires was not a "Dona", you may strip that title from her. > > > In one codicilo (document) - that you posted - she is called "dona viúva". > As far as I've seen not all women were always referred as "donas viúvas" in > testamentos. Only few of them. That's what leads me to suspect that the > genealogists took that "dona viúva" in testamentos and other documents to > mean the status that she had when alive.. > > >> >> I'll send the her debt record in another post. >> Francisco is most probably the Francisco, son of Rodrigo Anes and Isabel >> Pires, who received "ordens menores" in Funchal in 1538, thus his filiation >> is probably correct. >> > > **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy > steps! > (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1215047751x1200957972/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072%26hmpgID=62%26bcd=De > cemailfooterNO62) > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Paulo, Let me guess, during the Spanish regime? On NESOS, we all share your hope. Have you already seen our discussion on Agrela? Is there a better copy anywhere, other than on Picassa? ARM does a wonderful for all of us. However, we have someone that I am aware on the list that has been waiting at least 4 months to get a certificate. The answer is "we are waiting for the Treasure to confirm..." >From your experience what is the best way to deal with ARM from this side of the Atlantic? Some time ago we shared our experiences on this list. It might help any new member if we review this. On a similar note, I am planning in the near future to spend some time at the ARM. Any piece of advice? Any ideas on how I can be better prepared? What are the essentials to bring? Have you access to a TV? Any news on the regional transfers? José -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Paulo Santos Perneta Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 3:10 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Azevedos Cardosos Precisely, not a Câmara. But Captain of Funchal, nevertheless. ;) I have not been in the CEHA building, though I know where it is. I have spent my time at the ARM (that's were most primary sources are, my preferred) but I have been in permanent contact with one of the members of that project. Rumour has it that NESOS will be back to life sometime in the near future after some technical problems are solved. I certainly hope it will, I miss it very much. Paulo "Fernandes, Jose" <[email protected]> wrote in Thu, 4 Feb 2010 14:48:09 -0500: > Paulo > Yes, the Dr. Vieira's Centre. > Well, I can't wait for the article. Ponta do Sol and definitely > Santo António. Velozas, bettencourts, Chamoorros, Gouveias are from > there, and I full of them all! > A new Captain that would be news! You mean not a Camara? > > José > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Paulo Santos > Perneta > Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 2:04 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Azevedos Cardosos > > What Center? The Atlantic Studies one? > > About the article, I'm trying to make it more interesting by > connecting it to the present day families, without much luck yet. > Nevertheless, it would cast a new light over the Ponta do Sol > families, as well as possibly explain the origins of the Santo António > parish in Funchal. As a side effect, it would rise many questions > about the Dórias commonly believed origin, and with even more luck > will dismount the "Casta Grande" myth, as well as present the first > good study on that Ferreira family. A new Captain Donatário of Funchal > will also appear. Still working on it. :S > > Paulo > > >