Thanks Paulo, hope you had a good Xmas too. Clode refers her a a noble lady. Reis Gomes too (though in a literary context). recently on geneall forum there is much discussion about Henrique Alemão and his connection with Columbus. Just saw it a vol d'oiseau, and am not at all an expert on Columbus myths and counter-myths. But it's surely interesting that they are discussing a possible connection betrween Henrique Alemão and Columbus. Hope this will foster more interest in HA. Miguel On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 4:08 PM, Paulo Santos Perneta <[email protected]>wrote: > Hello Miguel, > > Happy New year, hope you have had a nice Xmas among your family. :) > Comments inline: > > Miguel de Castro Henriques <[email protected]> wrote > in Wed, 27 Jan 2010 13:23:07 +0000: > > [..] > > Raz or Rás not Roz. It's a full name, not an abbreviation of Rodrigues. > It > > could be derived from Arrais. > > Hmm... Doubtful. Arrais is a very persistent name, and I've never seen > any "derivation" from it. It was Arrais in the 1400's, it's Arrais > today, it has always been Arrais (a common portuguese word, by the > way). I favour the hypothesis of a foreign origin - Flemish, according > to... Carolina Michaelis, I seem to recall. > > > Isoa not Isaura. Isoa is derived from Iseult or Yseult. From the > classical > > Tristan and Iseult Arthurian story. Centuries before de Da Vinci Code, > > Madeiran gentry, especially from Gaula, was very keen on giving Arthurian > > names to their issue: Lançarote, from Lancelot. Galaz, from Sir Galahad, > > Tristão from Sir Tristram. (As a name, Isaura only appears in Madeira in > the > > 19 th century, so it is quite a modern name) > > Let's not forget the horrendous Grismunda (Grismunda da Mata, from > Gaula, married to Francisco Dias de Gouveia, so it seems, my 12th > great grand-mother). > > Another literary character, I guess, is Gridónia. Those names are also > somewhat common in slaves, most probably named after the literary > vanities of their masters. :) > > > Título Henriques Alemão, starts with Henrique Alemâo, da Madalena do Mar, > > one of the most mysterious figures from Madeira Island. He had a title: > > Cavaleiro da Ordem de Santa Catarina do Monte Sinai. > > And documented as such. :) > > > married Senhorinha > > Anes, from Algarvian and noble origins. > > Algarvian? Says who? > > [..] > > My brother, in > > Madeira saw his stone grave in which it is inscribed the Wheel of St. > > Catarina, the only coat of arms he ever used in Madeira. > > That tombstone has a void coat of arms. Apparently there are some > animals holding the coat, but there's nothing inside. It's not as if > it has been erased, but rather as if it's some unfinished work. > Anyway, It's not even certain to who that tombstone belongs... :-\ > > Cheers, > > Paulo > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Nice caracther o "Rompe-Terras". Seems coming directly from a portuguese folklore and fairy tales, like those recollected by Consiglieri Pedroso. On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 7:57 PM, Paulo Santos Perneta <[email protected]>wrote: > Depending on the birth date of Manuel, Isabel Moreira could be *the* > Isabel Moreira who scandalized Santa Cruz in the early 17th century > with her "mundane" affairs, until she married Diogo Fernandes Flor, > from Porto Santo, in 1613 - and moved herself to that island. > > If she's that one, she's one of the daughters of Vicente Moreira, > seaman, and Margarida Lopes, of reputed Moorish ancestry. Descendant > as well of Simão de Lima, "mulato que fora levadeiro das levadas desta > vila (Santa Cruz)" - So said António Fernandes o Rompe-Terras, who > lived in the Janeiro of Santa Cruz, and died in 1698 with more than > 101 years old. :) > > Paulo > > > Miguel de Castro Henriques <[email protected]> wrote > in Tue, 19 Jan 2010 15:46:31 +0000: > > > No, unfortunately. Leonor da Mata, being da Mata is certainly from the > > Mata's from Gaula. Moreira is not a typical name from Gaula. > > > > Voilà , > > > > > > Miguel > > > > On Tue, Jan 19, 2010 at 8:57 AM, <[email protected]> wrote: > > > >> Hi Miguel...do u have the parents of isabel moreira and leonor da mata? > >> > >> Thank you > >> > >> Leandro > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> In a message dated 1/19/2010 3:27:27 A.M. W. Europe Standard Time, > >> [email protected] writes: > >> > >> Almost everyone with ancestors in Gaula in the 17 th century has met > >> several times with the flourished signature of Padre Joseph Telles de > >> Meneses, also known as Joseph Tello, vigário da Gaula. He was almost > >> omnipresent not only celebrating marriages, his role after all, but as > >> witness of other marriages, or godfather. He is probably one of the men > >> who > >> wrote more times his signature in marriage documents. > >> He had to had some exuberance and vitality, I thought. > >> Well, finally I caught the reverend not acting in a reverend way, > >> So the reverend Vigário de Gaula, after all, was human... and so he had > >> one > >> daughter and one son, from two different women, > >> > >> The first appropriately called Teresa dos Mártires, from Leonor da > Mata. > >> and > >> from Isabel Moreira, he had Manuel. > >> As we say in good and discreet Portuguese, "era fresco!" > >> > >> All this is referred in PA, Tomo 1-10 parte, pg243. > >> > >> > >> Miguel > >> > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > >> quotes in the subject > >> and the body of the message > >> > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Well, Padre Joseph Telles de Meneses just climbed some more degrees in my consideration. Does Padre Bartolomeu followed the steps of his ancestor? These Flor are Castros, aren't they? Miguel On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 7:31 PM, Paulo Santos Perneta <[email protected]>wrote: > Good old grandma Isabel Moreira should have been such a flapper at her > time (if there were flappers in the 1620's). "Mulher mundana", as > she's called by the vicar of Santa Cruz, António Freire de Andrade in > 1701, as he recalls another illegitimate children of her, this time > with Fernão Tavares, the young kid of Tomé Mendes de Vasconcelos, > renowned knight of Santa Cruz. And, from what you say, it seems that > not even the priest has escaped... > > Half moorish, with African blood on her veins, she should have been > pretty as hell. Oh, those infamous Moreira sisters from Santa Cruz, > headache of so many family mothers.. ;) > > She latter settled down in Porto Santo, married with Domingos > Fernandes Flor - one could say that her fame in Madeira was ruined, > anyway - and had a horde of children - all of them, hopefully, from > the Flor. One of them you'll see quite often, signing the parish books > of Porto Santo: Pde. Bartolomeu Dias Moreira. > > Paulo > > Miguel de Castro Henriques <[email protected]> wrote > in Tue, 19 Jan 2010 02:27:17 +0000: > > > Almost everyone with ancestors in Gaula in the 17 th century has met > > several times with the flourished signature of Padre Joseph Telles de > > Meneses, also known as Joseph Tello, vigário da Gaula. He was almost > > omnipresent not only celebrating marriages, his role after all, but as > > witness of other marriages, or godfather. He is probably one of the men > who > > wrote more times his signature in marriage documents. > > He had to had some exuberance and vitality, I thought. > > Well, finally I caught the reverend not acting in a reverend way, > > So the reverend Vigário de Gaula, after all, was human... and so he had > one > > daughter and one son, from two different women, > > > > The first appropriately called Teresa dos Mártires, from Leonor da Mata. > and > > from Isabel Moreira, he had Manuel. > > As we say in good and discreet Portuguese, "era fresco!" > > > > All this is referred in PA, Tomo 1-10 parte, pg243. > > > > > > Miguel > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

I'm sure that the corregedor was from outside the island as well. But there could be two Licenciados, almost contemporaries, one corregedor and the other not sharing a ratter common and even epidemic name. I did not know that note by Cabral do Nascimento who deserves consideration, neither I have ever seen the document. I give him however much credit. However, to present that document on court, and based on solid facts defy Cabral de Nascimento authority would be momentous ; -)) On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 11:24 PM, Paulo Santos Perneta <[email protected]>wrote: > No way that the king would allow the corregedor to be a guy from > Funchal, son of a former alcaide, brother in law of a powerful > businessman, with a whole set of clientèle ready to ask for favours > and claiming paybacks. The corregedors were always - correct me if I'm > wrong - where always people from outside the Island, so that they > would not be hostage to the circles of influences already established. > > Licº Francisco Rodrigues, the corregedor, was married to Ana de > Guimarães. That guy should be spinning around in his tomb seeing what > some selfish, unscrupulous freak trying to nobilitate his own family > has done to the christening records of his sons. No, he's not the > Gouveia, and I believe that he has not left any descendants here. > After his service in the Island he probably returned to Portugal, to > wherever he came from. > > Now, about "Licº Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia" - the record of his > marriage is noted in the ARM database textually as such, in the notes > field: "O Dr. Cabral do Nascimento, em nota na folha de rosto do > livro, considerou este registo apócrifo, não aconselhando, portanto, a > emissão de certidões. Intromissão de letra posterior, entrelinhada.". > Of course, they could disregard his advice and issue the certificate > anyway, but I defy anyone to hold such a thing on court. > > Paulo > > > Miguel de Castro Henriques <[email protected]> wrote > in Fri, 8 Jan 2010 14:23:45 +0000: > > > On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 1:37 PM, Fernandes, Jose < > > [email protected]> wrote: > > > >> Miguel, > >> After a good night's reflection (?), I won't discuss my opinion on > whether > >> in the present unitary constitution of the Portuguese Republic, > Madeira's > >> regional government has the power of a "state" (Estado), but let's just > >> consider that in this case ARM has taken a position. Consider that in > spite > >> of the certificate saying that Beatriz is a Gonçalves Leão de Chamorro, > they > >> have not incorporated that when they digitalized the info. I mean that > you > >> put that name in the Data base and you get nothing. That is not normal. > Why > >> did they do that? > >> > > > > The omnipotent and menacing shade of god-the-father! I mean probably the > > ghost of Meneses Vaz paralyzed them. So they co-opted. They compromised, > and > > instead of her full name they just wrote Beatriz Chamorra, but they > conceded > > the Dr,.(instead of Licenciado) to Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia. > > > > Now there was for sure an archi-famous Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues - > > never referred as de Gouveia - around 1555 and 1557. He was corregedor, ( > > corregedor da Capitania da Cidade do Funchal, Procurador das Capellas, > > Orphãos e Resíduos e fazenda, etc. com larguissimos poderes e Alçada, > porque > > além das Corregedroias das Comarcas lhe dá a do Capitam (a do Zarco) and > in > > short, he had more power than the "Capitam" of Madeira who naturally was > a > > Gonçalves Zarco . > > > > That corregedor became famous not only because of his actions, but > because > > he had majestic powers as no one had before him. He was "governador, > ouvidor > > e Vedor da fazenda. He had at his service as "escrivão" and "chanceler da > > correição" Jerónimo Vieira, moço-fidalgo, and more personnel. > > Anyway during the period of time that Francisco Rodrigues had the > government > > he ruled the three "Capitanias" of Madeira archipelago. (More than Jardim > > today!) ; -))) > > > > > > > >> So, uisnng your argument all the ARM is guaranteeing is that she is a > >> Beatriz Chamorra. > > > > > > Not only that, even more important than that, the ARM is guaranteeing > that > > Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia is "de Gouveia" and Licenciado, and > > historically speaking he is infinitely more important than Beatriz > Chamorra. > > > > > > But one point not clarified remains. Is the famous corregedor Francisco > > Rodrigues the same as Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia? That's one of the > > major points to be cleared. As Francisco Rodrigues is quite a common name > > there could be, there could even be two Licenciados with almost the same > > name, no big deal. > > > > > >> Now, you and I, know that the possibility of another Francisco Rodrigues > >> Gouveia, Licenciado marrying a Beatriz Chamorra at this time in Funchal, > >> Madeira is highly improbable. > >> > > > > And that would be almost absolutely improbable. In that time there were > very > > few people of both sides (Rodrigues de Gouveia and Chamorros) to have > that > > circumstance happening. > > > > > >> Therefore I agree with you but we are still at a dead's end with > beatriz. > >> > > > > It has some shades of a dead end situation. But has some vistas over > other > > possibilities. So it's not a total dead end, rather a dead end with > openness > > and some light at the end of the end of the tunnel. > > > > > > > >> Keep exercising! > >> > > > > I will, for sure. Give it a try! > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > Miguel > > > > > > > >> Cheers, > >> José > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: [email protected] [mailto: > >> [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro > Henriques > >> Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 5:07 PM > >> To: [email protected] > >> Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia > >> > >> Mine is certified. You can ask docs. from ARM in two ways; a( as simple > >> photocopy . has no kegal value, B) Certified. With the official stamp, > it > >> has legal value. It's a certified document that you may use in any legal > >> undertake. > >> > >> So what ARM is saying when it puts the official stamp is: we guarantee > that > >> all that this document states is true. And that's precisely what is a > legal > >> document about. True facts. Not forgeries. > >> > >> Pilates is really great exercise ; -)) > >> > >> Miguel > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 10:01 PM, Miguel de Castro Henriques < > >> [email protected]> wrote: > >> > >> > > >> > > >> > On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 9:44 PM, Fernandes, Jose < > >> > [email protected]> wrote: > >> > > >> >> Miguel, > >> >> Great arguments. However, many of the copies are not certified. Does > >> that > >> >> change any of your arguments? > >> >> I am with you. Now Pilates class? Is this a misspelling? If not is > this > >> >> the Pilates from Palestine? What he is doing giving classes in > Portugal? > >> >> Wait I know. I will keep it to myself. I heard that the present gov't > >> has > >> >> many spies!!!!! > >> >> > >> >> Just kidding... > >> >> José > >> >> > >> >> -----Original Message----- > >> >> From: [email protected] [mailto: > >> >> [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro > >> Henriques > >> >> Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 4:36 PM > >> >> To: [email protected] > >> >> Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia > >> >> > >> >> On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 7:23 PM, Fernandes, Jose < > >> >> [email protected]> wrote: > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > Miguel, > >> >> > I agree with you. Do you think all of this might have to do with > the > >> >> Cunha > >> >> > case? > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> José, > >> >> > >> >> I really don't see very well the Rodrigues de Gouveia faking all > these > >> >> documents (or asking someone to do it) to win the case against the > all > >> >> powerful Pedro Álvares da Cunha. The documents had to be checked and > >> >> re~checked. Pedro Álvares da Cunha was too big a fish to get > swallowed > >> by > >> >> any amount of fake documents. He had the best lawyers and court > people > >> and > >> >> experts working for him. They would detect the slightest > irregularities > >> in > >> >> the papers and documents. Even better than any of us and perhaps any > >> >> contemporary expert. It was their world, their language, their style > of > >> >> writing. They would be able to detect fakers and forgeries quite > easily. > >> >> People from these days were subtle..\ Just have a look at their > >> >> handwriting > >> >> many times elegant, precise, elaborate.and each one seemed to have > its > >> >> personal style. Just compare to today's handwriting- generally > >> amorphous, > >> >> poor, without style. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> On other hand the document from which I started all my considerations > is > >> >> from the ARM database. Now, let me tell this. The ARM is a provider > of > >> >> legal documents. The documents we ask to ARM has in its database have > >> >> legal > >> >> force to prove something like : our being candidates to a heritage, > >> asking > >> >> for a title of nobility, asking for a coat of arms, wanting to change > >> our > >> >> name and surname and proving an ancestor had that name, etc. I mean > >> every > >> >> register in the ARM is not there per chance. It had to be > demonstrated > >> >> that > >> >> it was accurate, before they included it in their database. So every > >> >> marriage doc. every baptismal goes through the hands of experts. > >> Forgeries > >> >> are no admissible, since they are legal documents guaranteed by the > >> >> State.. > >> >> Otherwise no one would take seriously that ARM and its database. Of > >> >> course, > >> >> even so, an extremely clever and old forgery could pass the eyes of > >> >> experts. > >> >> Though the filters are more and more accurate. I believe we are now > in > >> the > >> >> 2nd and third generation of experts in the ARM after its foundation. > >> >> Second, > >> >> at least, though João Cabral could be my ggfather. Moreover they have > a > >> >> tradition of very good professionalism. So if they admit a document > in > >> >> their > >> >> database it is only after close scrutiny by experts on the field.. > And > >> for > >> >> scientific and legal reasons it can not be otherwise. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> So we have here an interesting case. If the doc. I have mentioned is > a > >> >> forgery, then the experts of the ARM were not able to identify it. > But I > >> >> doubt it very strongly. What interests more a genealogist are > precisely > >> >> the > >> >> two first centuries of Madeiran documents. It's there that their > >> attention > >> >> is more focused. So, i think that the document I have (the photocopy > of > >> >> it) > >> >> is sound and clear and moreover authenticated by ARM experts. I can > use > >> it > >> >> legally to prove that for instance for having a claim for using the > >> >> Chamorros coat of arms,. since I descend from them with only three > >> breaks > >> >> on > >> >> the male lineage. I won't, of course. But that's an open possibility > for > >> >> somebody else who requires the services of the ARM and finds the very > >> same > >> >> document and wants to do that precislçey that. And the ARM documents > >> have > >> >> that legal force, they are decisive and final proof. That's why they > are > >> >> authenticated, with the seal of the Government. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > One could pick sides in all of this! > >> >> > It is too bad that Paulo is m.i.a., for he had a strong feeling > about > >> >> this. > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Yes. He had a strong stand on all this - But I don't have his > particular > >> >> opinion on this document. He contested others. Not this one. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > It is possible that he just chose to believe Bernardo. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Yes. He is a bit fast IMO dismissing the document. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > Howver, you make a good case. So what do we do now? Throw out the > >> >> Carvalho > >> >> > Pais? > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> Not yet, though I am not clinging to them specially. Half of Portugal > >> >> descends from the Carvalhos de Basto, from which the Carvalhos pais > are > >> >> minor madeiran branch. > >> >> > >> >> I think we have to study where this Leam link leads. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > Hope you are feeling a bit warmer. > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Yeah. Just came from my Pilates class, and am feeling OK. > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Miguel > >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > José > >> >> > > >> >> > -----Original Message----- > >> >> > From: [email protected] [mailto: > >> >> > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro > >> >> Henriques > >> >> > Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 1:48 PM > >> >> > To: [email protected] > >> >> > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia > >> >> > > >> >> > On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 5:21 PM, Fernandes, Jose < > >> >> > [email protected]> wrote: > >> >> > > >> >> > > Miguel, > >> >> > > I am just reading the Rodrigues de Gouveia genealogy, and on note > #8 > >> >> > > Bernado Gomes Ferreira (?) writes that there is acertificate of > >> >> marriage > >> >> > > for out two, but " existe-mas é como não existisse. > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > Ah good find José. I missed it. > >> >> > > >> >> > Obscure words, he said. Anyway he ought to refer to it with more > >> >> precision, > >> >> > IMO. And I think that the document is valid, and was all written by > >> the > >> >> > hand > >> >> > of Vicente Afonso, cura. > >> >> > > >> >> > Now there is no doubt for me that it was written by the Cura > Vicente > >> >> > Afonso. > >> >> > And signed, among others by João Rodrigues Escórcio, who later > acted > >> as > >> >> > testamenteiro of the will of F.co Rodrigues de Gouveia, thus > >> confirming > >> >> > their relationship. > >> >> > > >> >> > However I don't know if Menses Vaz is referring the same document. > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > ..E uma cousa inautêntica" and that's why in Bernardo's opinion > Vaz > >> >> did > >> >> > not > >> >> > > pay attention to it. What do you think of that? > >> >> > > > >> >> > > >> >> > I think that Menses Vaz had a misfired shot. The document seems to > me > >> >> > "cousa > >> >> > autêntica". It would perhaps alter Menses Vaz genealogy of the > >> Carvalho > >> >> > Pais > >> >> > (as far as beatriz Chamorra is regarded), so the horrified > magister > >> >> send > >> >> > the document to hell, without having the trouble to explain why. > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > I guess I am having problems with an Italian connection!!! > >> >> > > > >> >> > > >> >> > mmmm. Italian connections are always problematic ; -))) > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > Miguel > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > José > >> >> > > > >> >> > > -----Original Message----- > >> >> > > From: [email protected] [mailto: > >> >> > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro > >> >> > Henriques > >> >> > > Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 11:43 AM > >> >> > > To: [email protected] > >> >> > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de > Gouveia > >> >> > > > >> >> > > On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 4:12 PM, Fernandes, Jose < > >> >> > > [email protected]> wrote: > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > Miguel, > >> >> > > > Interesting that the family, as you know, uses Pacheco > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > Yes, for two generations they use Gouveia Pacheco. And with that > >> name > >> >> > they > >> >> > > administer the "Capela" from the morgadio established by Rodrigo > >> Anes > >> >> and > >> >> > > Isabel Pires.. > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > and only much later goes back to the Rodrigues de Gouveia. That > is > >> >> > > somewhat > >> >> > > > unusual, unless the other names were more powerful. > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > To add to Beatriz's parents' confusion, please remember that > later > >> a > >> >> > > Brites > >> >> > > > Chamorra wins that famous name trial re: Cunha because her > >> ancestors > >> >> > were > >> >> > > Da > >> >> > > > Cunha from the Carvalho Pais. So at some time we have to deal > with > >> >> that > >> >> > > > side. > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > That famous trial is a powerful piece. As you know they won > against > >> D. > >> >> > > Pedro > >> >> > > Álvares da Cunha, a grandee of the the Kingdom, Trinchante-Mor da > >> Casa > >> >> > > Real, > >> >> > > (he was also Governor of Madeira), from the archi-noble Cunhas da > >> >> Tábua. > >> >> > So > >> >> > > they probably had access to some documentation that meanwhile was > >> >> lost. > >> >> > > Anyway, nice to watch, the obscure Rodrigues de Gouveia defeating > >> that > >> >> > Big > >> >> > > Fish. > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > Miguel, I real believe that Vaz was not aware of the marriage > in > >> Sé. > >> >> In > >> >> > > the > >> >> > > > genealogy, he says that Francisco married around 1540 or later. > So > >> >> he > >> >> > > wasn't > >> >> > > > aware of this certificate or if he was he dismissed it. > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > I was surprised to see on RTPi that Setubal today was going > colder > >> >> than > >> >> > > the > >> >> > > > interior! > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > Well, I didn't know about that. For the moment it is a sunny > sunny > >> >> day, > >> >> > > cold > >> >> > > as ice. > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > I am on my 3d cup of steaming tea. One has to drink it fast > >> otherwise > >> >> it > >> >> > > gets cold in no time at all. > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > José > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > -----Original Message----- > >> >> > > > From: [email protected] [mailto: > >> >> > > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de > Castro > >> >> > > Henriques > >> >> > > > Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 10:56 AM > >> >> > > > To: [email protected] > >> >> > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de > >> Gouveia > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > José, > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > Miguel, > >> >> > > > > Congratulations on this find! I believe you and I (among > others) > >> >> > share > >> >> > > > this > >> >> > > > > family. > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > Thanks. I'm just amazed how this escaped the genealogists. > Were > >> >> they > >> >> > > > kindly > >> >> > > > leaving something for us to discover? ; -) > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > Yes, I have at least two or three lines to our Gaspar > Rodrigues. > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia is my great (12) grandfather and > is > >> >> > though > >> >> > > > > his son Gaspar that the line continues until our marriage > with > >> >> > > > Escolástica > >> >> > > > > de Bettencourt. > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > Yes, the "Morgadinha" ; -) Fortunately I downloaded all the > >> >> Rodrigues > >> >> > de > >> >> > > > Gouveia > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > I suspect you don't have the original marriage certificate > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > I have a photocopy of the original. (The priest had a > magnificent > >> >> > > > handwriting, clear, elegant, incisive). The addition of beatriz > >> glz > >> >> de > >> >> > > leam > >> >> > > > (no capital letters) > >> >> > > > is his, no doubt. > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > and that if you did, would you be able to scan it and send it > to > >> >> my > >> >> > > > > personal account. > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > For the moment I am planning to buy a scanner. The old one is > >> kaput. > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > Otherwise, I will be ordering the certificate. > >> >> > > > > I also have the Vaz geneology, where I got most of my > >> information, > >> >> > and > >> >> > > I > >> >> > > > > share your amazement that they did not seem to be aware of > the > >> >> Leão > >> >> > > > > connection. > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > It escaped them. I can't see another explanation. It has the > clues > >> >> to > >> >> > > find > >> >> > > > out who were Beatriz Gonçalves de Leam de Chamorro's parents. > She > >> >> must > >> >> > > be > >> >> > > > one of the persons from that era with the longest name. Trivial > as > >> >> it > >> >> > is > >> >> > > > today for a Portuguese to have 4 names, it wasn't in those > times. > >> >> > > > It would have been signaled. > >> >> > > > Also there is the fact that she's called "de Chamorra". Unusual > >> >> among > >> >> > the > >> >> > > > Chamorras who never used that "de" > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > But what do we have here? First the son of Francisco Rodrigues > de > >> >> > Gouveia > >> >> > > > and Beatriz Chamorra, is Rui Chamorro, Almost as a rule the > sons > >> >> used > >> >> > > their > >> >> > > > father's name. Not in this case. What can it mean? It means > that > >> the > >> >> > > > Chamorro name was more important than the Rodrigues de Gouveia. > So > >> >> this > >> >> > > > allows us to conjecture that their Chamorro was linked with the > >> top > >> >> > > > Chamorros, descendants of the "Porteiro dos cativos", Pedro > >> >> Chamorro, > >> >> > > FCR. > >> >> > > > Otherwise he would have used, as Gapsar did, the Rodrigues de > >> >> Gouveia > >> >> > > name. > >> >> > > > Though there are no strict rules. And everything is possible as > >> >> regards > >> >> > > use > >> >> > > > of names of the parents. > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > You don't have Brites parents? > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > No. In the Carvalho Pais title our Brites Chamorra is presented > as > >> >> dau. > >> >> > > of > >> >> > > > Brites Chamorra married to a Carvalho Pais. It was the > respectable > >> >> > > Meneses > >> >> > > > Vaz who wrote that title. However due to new data it's, to say > the > >> >> > least, > >> >> > > > questionable. > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > But now with the Gonçalves de Leam clue we're forced to admit > that > >> >> she > >> >> > > was > >> >> > > > the dau, of a Gonçalves de Leam and a Chamorra. Remember in > that > >> >> time > >> >> > the > >> >> > > > first name was the father's, the second the mother's name. > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > All we can say it that we added more Italian blood, the Leam > >> >> (Leone?) > >> >> > to > >> >> > > > our > >> >> > > > tree. > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > They were not available on the Vaz list. So, Vaz may not have > >> >> known. > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > That's what surprises me. If he knew he did not show it. If he > did > >> >> not > >> >> > > show > >> >> > > > it but he knew it, well....But, genealogically speaking, he had > >> too. > >> >> > It's > >> >> > > > too fundamental a clue to be discarded. Anyway for Vaz a > bastard > >> >> line > >> >> > was > >> >> > > > not a matter of shame, or something to hide (like HHN did > >> >> sometimes). > >> >> > > > Furthermore the Leam were "good" families, top bourgeoisie. > >> perhaps > >> >> > even > >> >> > > > descendants of Italian nobility, They were linked to the > Spínolas. > >> >> And > >> >> > > the > >> >> > > > Spínolas were one of the top Madeiran families. So this Leam > link > >> >> that > >> >> > > > Beatriz undoubtedly carries "had" perforce to be explored. > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > Bastard line? > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > I don't think so.Furthermore with such a big name. > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > The Alentejo cold does help your research! > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > Thanks Siberian cold on the way, "Vaga de frio monumental" > >> >> > Scandianavian > >> >> > > > countries 41 degrees below zero (Fahrenheit scale). > Temperatures > >> >> below > >> >> > > zero > >> >> > > > in Portugal interior. handle me that rum, or vodka or whatever, > >> >> please! > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > Miguel > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > José > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > -----Original Message----- > >> >> > > > > From: [email protected] [mailto: > >> >> > > > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de > Castro > >> >> > > > Henriques > >> >> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2010 7:46 PM > >> >> > > > > To: [email protected] > >> >> > > > > Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de > Gouveia > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > I found an old marriage register to which I did not concede > >> much > >> >> > > > > importance > >> >> > > > > at the time. Now I see that it connects with a discussion > about > >> >> F.co > >> >> > > > > Rodrigues de Gouveia we had here a year ago or so. Was he > >> >> Licenciado > >> >> > or > >> >> > > > > not? > >> >> > > > > Was it a forgery? (his marriage document, as Paulo > contended). > >> >> Well, > >> >> > it > >> >> > > > > seems that it was not. Let's see why. > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > Anyway here we go. It's the marriage certificate of Isabel > Leal > >> m. > >> >> > Rui > >> >> > > > > Chamorro, (1577, Sé do Funchal). > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > She is the dau, of F.co da Costa de Siqueira and Leonor > >> Rodrigues. > >> >> > (The > >> >> > > > > Costa de Siqueira were noble, and are relatively well known). > >> Him, > >> >> > Rui > >> >> > > > > Chamorro, son of Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia > >> >> (already > >> >> > > dead) > >> >> > > > > and his wife - and here is the surprise ..*.Beatriz Gonçalves > de > >> >> Leam > >> >> > > de > >> >> > > > > Chamorra !!* > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > The document is original, The words "Gonçalves de Leam de" > were > >> >> added > >> >> > > > with > >> >> > > > > the very same writing of the priest who wrote the document (I > >> have > >> >> no > >> >> > > > doubt > >> >> > > > > about it. It was the priest. It's not an added and clever > >> forgery, > >> >> i > >> >> > > bet > >> >> > > > > strongly on that). Anyway It's a name extraodinarily long for > >> that > >> >> > > time. > >> >> > > > > And > >> >> > > > > containing explosive and brand new information. > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > The Leão were from Italian origin, merchants. "Mercadores do > >> >> trauto > >> >> > do > >> >> > > > > assucar" (They came very early to Madeira, around 1472). They > >> >> > > established > >> >> > > > > themselves in Funchal.They were later and, no surprisingly, > >> >> connected > >> >> > > by > >> >> > > > > marriage with the Spínolas.. They were upper bourgeoisie, at > >> >> least. > >> >> > > > > A Licenciado Diogo de Leão existed around that time. Probably > a > >> >> > > relative? > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > In this document we have evidence that a Licenciado Francisco > >> >> > Rodrigues > >> >> > > > de > >> >> > > > > Gouveia truly existed. So in face of this document we are > forced > >> >> to > >> >> > say > >> >> > > > he > >> >> > > > > is documented and his full name was truly Francisco Rodrigues > de > >> >> > > Gouveia. > >> >> > > > > Now he was supposed to be married to a just Brites Chamorra > by > >> >> > several > >> >> > > > > leading genealogists (Meneses Vaz included) > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > Here from ARM database: Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia, Dr. > >> >> > > > > Beatriz > >> >> > > > > Chamorra Sé 1539 46 7 v.º > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > But how come no one mentioned the "Gonçalves de Leam" of > Beatriz > >> >> > > > Chamorra? > >> >> > > > > It was mandatory! Because it's an extremely interesting and > >> >> central > >> >> > > > detail > >> >> > > > > which could lead to a connection, still unknown , between the > >> Leão > >> >> > and > >> >> > > > the > >> >> > > > > Chamorros. What is said here is that it (that connection) > >> >> blatantly > >> >> > > > > existed. > >> >> > > > > This Chamorra had Leam (Leão) blood. That no genealogist said > it > >> >> > > before. > >> >> > > > > And > >> >> > > > > that, just amazes me. > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > The witness were João Rodrigues Escórcio - well known > character. > >> >> Joam > >> >> > > > > Carvalho. Pedro Feo (Feio) and Francisco Jorge. All the > witness > >> as > >> >> is > >> >> > > > > fitting for the marriage of a Licenciado could read and > write. > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > I think Joam Carvalho was a judge. > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > Anyway all this is really groovy and juicy. > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > I leave here this info.because I think very strange that none > of > >> >> the > >> >> > > > > leading > >> >> > > > > genealogists (of reference, I know and studied almost them > all > >> but > >> >> I > >> >> > > > won't > >> >> > > > > quote all their names) referred it. Especially those who > wrote > >> >> the > >> >> > > > > Rodrigues de Gouveia title as well as the Lopes Esteves title > >> >> (patent > >> >> > > in > >> >> > > > > the > >> >> > > > > old and regreted NESOS). Had they seen it they were > "condemned" > >> to > >> >> > > refer > >> >> > > > > this Beatriz Gonçalves de Leam de Chamorra. They would have > been > >> >> as > >> >> > > > > stupefied as I am. Did this document eluded them? I don't > >> believe > >> >> > that > >> >> > > > > having seen it they would discard it,. They were too > >> knowledgeable > >> >> to > >> >> > > do > >> >> > > > > it. > >> >> > > > > Besides it has a promising discovery adventure appended to > it. > >> So > >> >> I > >> >> > > have > >> >> > > > to > >> >> > > > > concede that this document that I got pretty easily escaped > >> their > >> >> > > > > attention, > >> >> > > > > or was stuck in an old pile behind a desk or something at > their > >> >> time. > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > Of course this interests half Madeira, since half Madeira > >> descends > >> >> > from > >> >> > > > the > >> >> > > > > Rodrigues de Gouveia. > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > Cheers, > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > Miguel > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > ------------------------------- > >> >> > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> >> > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > >> >> without > >> >> > > the > >> >> > > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > ------------------------------- > >> >> > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> >> > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > >> >> without > >> >> > > the > >> >> > > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > ------------------------------- > >> >> > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> >> > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > >> >> without > >> >> > the > >> >> > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > ------------------------------- > >> >> > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> >> > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > >> >> without > >> >> > the > >> >> > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > ------------------------------- > >> >> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> >> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > >> without > >> >> the > >> >> > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > ------------------------------- > >> >> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> >> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > >> without > >> >> the > >> >> > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> >> > > > >> >> > > >> >> > ------------------------------- > >> >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> >> > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > >> >> the > >> >> > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > ------------------------------- > >> >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> >> > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > >> >> the > >> >> > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> ------------------------------- > >> >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > >> the > >> >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> ------------------------------- > >> >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > >> the > >> >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> >> > >> > > >> > > >> > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Yes, at the light of such facts not impossible, but quite difficult. Doubts accepted ; -)) 2010/2/4 Paulo Santos Perneta <[email protected]> > The god of genealogists works in mysterious ways, but I have the most > serious doubts about that. Her parents were a workman and a daughter's > slave, I wouldn't expect that much from that side. :S > > Paulo > > Miguel de Castro Henriques <[email protected]> wrote > in Tue, 26 Jan 2010 12:28:15 +0000: > > > Hello José, > > > > Thanks. > > > > Catarina Rodrigues might be a Rodrigues Escórcio or connected with the > > Escórcios.. > > > > > > Mgiuel > > > > 2010/1/25 Fernandes, Jose <[email protected]> > > > >> I must have these people, but no luck. > >> However, there is a new website about Madeira that members might be > >> interested in www.visitmadeira.pt > >> Great 3d vistas. > >> > >> Try it. > >> José Fernandes > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: [email protected] [mailto: > >> [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro > Henriques > >> Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2010 9:57 AM > >> To: [email protected] > >> Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Martinho de Góis and Catarina Rodrigues > >> > >> Hello all, > >> > >> > >> Has anyone info. about Martinho de Gópis m (1590, Caniço) Catarina > >> Rodrigues? > >> > >> Thanks in advance, > >> > >> > >> Miguel > >> > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Ah thanks a lot. I am descendant from the second marriage of Catarina Rodrigues, not from Martim de Gºois. In the regito I Have she appears as widow of Martinho de Góis, without signaling her parents.. So she was grandaughter of a mulata? Great, I like that. About the Fragas or Frágoas, there were noble Fragas in Madeira, according to PA, ranking as escudeiros. Maybe there were two branches of Fragas with nothing in common. Do you know if this Fraga, tranlhadior, has any link with the Caniço Fraga's, married to Nóbregas? 2010/2/4 Paulo Santos Perneta <[email protected]> > Most certainly. > > He: Son of André Martins, farmer, and Beatriz Nunes "do Castelo", p. > greatson of Estevão Martins and Iria de Góis, m. grandson of António > Gonçalves (another one) and Maria... > > She: Daughter of João Roiz Fraga , workman, and Inês Álvares, m. > granddaughter of Violante ÁLvares, mulata, slave of Inês Gonçalves > (wife of João Barradas). Violante had children also from João Dias > (teh Tinims or Denims) and later married Pedro Álvares, a farmer. They > lived at Moinhos, Caniço. > > Beatriz Nunes is probably from the Calaças, as the surname appears on > a grandson (Maria Calaça, d. of Martim de Góis and Catª Roiz). > > Paulo > > > Miguel de Castro Henriques <[email protected]> wrote > in Sat, 23 Jan 2010 14:56:51 +0000: > > > Hello all, > > > > > > Has anyone info. about Martinho de Gópis m (1590, Caniço) Catarina > > Rodrigues? > > > > Thanks in advance, > > > > > > Miguel > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

No way that the king would allow the corregedor to be a guy from Funchal, son of a former alcaide, brother in law of a powerful businessman, with a whole set of clientèle ready to ask for favours and claiming paybacks. The corregedors were always - correct me if I'm wrong - where always people from outside the Island, so that they would not be hostage to the circles of influences already established. Licº Francisco Rodrigues, the corregedor, was married to Ana de Guimarães. That guy should be spinning around in his tomb seeing what some selfish, unscrupulous freak trying to nobilitate his own family has done to the christening records of his sons. No, he's not the Gouveia, and I believe that he has not left any descendants here. After his service in the Island he probably returned to Portugal, to wherever he came from. Now, about "Licº Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia" - the record of his marriage is noted in the ARM database textually as such, in the notes field: "O Dr. Cabral do Nascimento, em nota na folha de rosto do livro, considerou este registo apócrifo, não aconselhando, portanto, a emissão de certidões. Intromissão de letra posterior, entrelinhada.". Of course, they could disregard his advice and issue the certificate anyway, but I defy anyone to hold such a thing on court. Paulo Miguel de Castro Henriques <[email protected]> wrote in Fri, 8 Jan 2010 14:23:45 +0000: > On Fri, Jan 8, 2010 at 1:37 PM, Fernandes, Jose < > [email protected]> wrote: > >> Miguel, >> After a good night's reflection (?), I won't discuss my opinion on whether >> in the present unitary constitution of the Portuguese Republic, Madeira's >> regional government has the power of a "state" (Estado), but let's just >> consider that in this case ARM has taken a position. Consider that in spite >> of the certificate saying that Beatriz is a Gonçalves Leão de Chamorro, they >> have not incorporated that when they digitalized the info. I mean that you >> put that name in the Data base and you get nothing. That is not normal. Why >> did they do that? >> > > The omnipotent and menacing shade of god-the-father! I mean probably the > ghost of Meneses Vaz paralyzed them. So they co-opted. They compromised, and > instead of her full name they just wrote Beatriz Chamorra, but they conceded > the Dr,.(instead of Licenciado) to Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia. > > Now there was for sure an archi-famous Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues - > never referred as de Gouveia - around 1555 and 1557. He was corregedor, ( > corregedor da Capitania da Cidade do Funchal, Procurador das Capellas, > Orphãos e Resíduos e fazenda, etc. com larguissimos poderes e Alçada, porque > além das Corregedroias das Comarcas lhe dá a do Capitam (a do Zarco) and in > short, he had more power than the "Capitam" of Madeira who naturally was a > Gonçalves Zarco . > > That corregedor became famous not only because of his actions, but because > he had majestic powers as no one had before him. He was "governador, ouvidor > e Vedor da fazenda. He had at his service as "escrivão" and "chanceler da > correição" Jerónimo Vieira, moço-fidalgo, and more personnel. > Anyway during the period of time that Francisco Rodrigues had the government > he ruled the three "Capitanias" of Madeira archipelago. (More than Jardim > today!) ; -))) > > > >> So, uisnng your argument all the ARM is guaranteeing is that she is a >> Beatriz Chamorra. > > > Not only that, even more important than that, the ARM is guaranteeing that > Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia is "de Gouveia" and Licenciado, and > historically speaking he is infinitely more important than Beatriz Chamorra. > > > But one point not clarified remains. Is the famous corregedor Francisco > Rodrigues the same as Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia? That's one of the > major points to be cleared. As Francisco Rodrigues is quite a common name > there could be, there could even be two Licenciados with almost the same > name, no big deal. > > >> Now, you and I, know that the possibility of another Francisco Rodrigues >> Gouveia, Licenciado marrying a Beatriz Chamorra at this time in Funchal, >> Madeira is highly improbable. >> > > And that would be almost absolutely improbable. In that time there were very > few people of both sides (Rodrigues de Gouveia and Chamorros) to have that > circumstance happening. > > >> Therefore I agree with you but we are still at a dead's end with beatriz. >> > > It has some shades of a dead end situation. But has some vistas over other > possibilities. So it's not a total dead end, rather a dead end with openness > and some light at the end of the end of the tunnel. > > > >> Keep exercising! >> > > I will, for sure. Give it a try! > > > Cheers, > > Miguel > > > >> Cheers, >> José >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [email protected] [mailto: >> [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro Henriques >> Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 5:07 PM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia >> >> Mine is certified. You can ask docs. from ARM in two ways; a( as simple >> photocopy . has no kegal value, B) Certified. With the official stamp, it >> has legal value. It's a certified document that you may use in any legal >> undertake. >> >> So what ARM is saying when it puts the official stamp is: we guarantee that >> all that this document states is true. And that's precisely what is a legal >> document about. True facts. Not forgeries. >> >> Pilates is really great exercise ; -)) >> >> Miguel >> >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 10:01 PM, Miguel de Castro Henriques < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >> > >> > >> > On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 9:44 PM, Fernandes, Jose < >> > [email protected]> wrote: >> > >> >> Miguel, >> >> Great arguments. However, many of the copies are not certified. Does >> that >> >> change any of your arguments? >> >> I am with you. Now Pilates class? Is this a misspelling? If not is this >> >> the Pilates from Palestine? What he is doing giving classes in Portugal? >> >> Wait I know. I will keep it to myself. I heard that the present gov't >> has >> >> many spies!!!!! >> >> >> >> Just kidding... >> >> José >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: [email protected] [mailto: >> >> [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro >> Henriques >> >> Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 4:36 PM >> >> To: [email protected] >> >> Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia >> >> >> >> On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 7:23 PM, Fernandes, Jose < >> >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > Miguel, >> >> > I agree with you. Do you think all of this might have to do with the >> >> Cunha >> >> > case? >> >> >> >> >> >> José, >> >> >> >> I really don't see very well the Rodrigues de Gouveia faking all these >> >> documents (or asking someone to do it) to win the case against the all >> >> powerful Pedro Álvares da Cunha. The documents had to be checked and >> >> re~checked. Pedro Álvares da Cunha was too big a fish to get swallowed >> by >> >> any amount of fake documents. He had the best lawyers and court people >> and >> >> experts working for him. They would detect the slightest irregularities >> in >> >> the papers and documents. Even better than any of us and perhaps any >> >> contemporary expert. It was their world, their language, their style of >> >> writing. They would be able to detect fakers and forgeries quite easily. >> >> People from these days were subtle..\ Just have a look at their >> >> handwriting >> >> many times elegant, precise, elaborate.and each one seemed to have its >> >> personal style. Just compare to today's handwriting- generally >> amorphous, >> >> poor, without style. >> >> >> >> >> >> On other hand the document from which I started all my considerations is >> >> from the ARM database. Now, let me tell this. The ARM is a provider of >> >> legal documents. The documents we ask to ARM has in its database have >> >> legal >> >> force to prove something like : our being candidates to a heritage, >> asking >> >> for a title of nobility, asking for a coat of arms, wanting to change >> our >> >> name and surname and proving an ancestor had that name, etc. I mean >> every >> >> register in the ARM is not there per chance. It had to be demonstrated >> >> that >> >> it was accurate, before they included it in their database. So every >> >> marriage doc. every baptismal goes through the hands of experts. >> Forgeries >> >> are no admissible, since they are legal documents guaranteed by the >> >> State.. >> >> Otherwise no one would take seriously that ARM and its database. Of >> >> course, >> >> even so, an extremely clever and old forgery could pass the eyes of >> >> experts. >> >> Though the filters are more and more accurate. I believe we are now in >> the >> >> 2nd and third generation of experts in the ARM after its foundation. >> >> Second, >> >> at least, though João Cabral could be my ggfather. Moreover they have a >> >> tradition of very good professionalism. So if they admit a document in >> >> their >> >> database it is only after close scrutiny by experts on the field.. And >> for >> >> scientific and legal reasons it can not be otherwise. >> >> >> >> >> >> So we have here an interesting case. If the doc. I have mentioned is a >> >> forgery, then the experts of the ARM were not able to identify it. But I >> >> doubt it very strongly. What interests more a genealogist are precisely >> >> the >> >> two first centuries of Madeiran documents. It's there that their >> attention >> >> is more focused. So, i think that the document I have (the photocopy of >> >> it) >> >> is sound and clear and moreover authenticated by ARM experts. I can use >> it >> >> legally to prove that for instance for having a claim for using the >> >> Chamorros coat of arms,. since I descend from them with only three >> breaks >> >> on >> >> the male lineage. I won't, of course. But that's an open possibility for >> >> somebody else who requires the services of the ARM and finds the very >> same >> >> document and wants to do that precislçey that. And the ARM documents >> have >> >> that legal force, they are decisive and final proof. That's why they are >> >> authenticated, with the seal of the Government. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > One could pick sides in all of this! >> >> > It is too bad that Paulo is m.i.a., for he had a strong feeling about >> >> this. >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> Yes. He had a strong stand on all this - But I don't have his particular >> >> opinion on this document. He contested others. Not this one. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > It is possible that he just chose to believe Bernardo. >> >> >> >> >> >> Yes. He is a bit fast IMO dismissing the document. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > Howver, you make a good case. So what do we do now? Throw out the >> >> Carvalho >> >> > Pais? >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Not yet, though I am not clinging to them specially. Half of Portugal >> >> descends from the Carvalhos de Basto, from which the Carvalhos pais are >> >> minor madeiran branch. >> >> >> >> I think we have to study where this Leam link leads. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > Hope you are feeling a bit warmer. >> >> > >> >> >> >> >> >> Yeah. Just came from my Pilates class, and am feeling OK. >> >> >> >> >> >> Miguel >> >> >> >> > >> >> > José >> >> > >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> >> > From: [email protected] [mailto: >> >> > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro >> >> Henriques >> >> > Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 1:48 PM >> >> > To: [email protected] >> >> > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia >> >> > >> >> > On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 5:21 PM, Fernandes, Jose < >> >> > [email protected]> wrote: >> >> > >> >> > > Miguel, >> >> > > I am just reading the Rodrigues de Gouveia genealogy, and on note #8 >> >> > > Bernado Gomes Ferreira (?) writes that there is acertificate of >> >> marriage >> >> > > for out two, but " existe-mas é como não existisse. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > Ah good find José. I missed it. >> >> > >> >> > Obscure words, he said. Anyway he ought to refer to it with more >> >> precision, >> >> > IMO. And I think that the document is valid, and was all written by >> the >> >> > hand >> >> > of Vicente Afonso, cura. >> >> > >> >> > Now there is no doubt for me that it was written by the Cura Vicente >> >> > Afonso. >> >> > And signed, among others by João Rodrigues Escórcio, who later acted >> as >> >> > testamenteiro of the will of F.co Rodrigues de Gouveia, thus >> confirming >> >> > their relationship. >> >> > >> >> > However I don't know if Menses Vaz is referring the same document. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > > ..E uma cousa inautêntica" and that's why in Bernardo's opinion Vaz >> >> did >> >> > not >> >> > > pay attention to it. What do you think of that? >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > I think that Menses Vaz had a misfired shot. The document seems to me >> >> > "cousa >> >> > autêntica". It would perhaps alter Menses Vaz genealogy of the >> Carvalho >> >> > Pais >> >> > (as far as beatriz Chamorra is regarded), so the horrified magister >> >> send >> >> > the document to hell, without having the trouble to explain why. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > > I guess I am having problems with an Italian connection!!! >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > mmmm. Italian connections are always problematic ; -))) >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > Miguel >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > > José >> >> > > >> >> > > -----Original Message----- >> >> > > From: [email protected] [mailto: >> >> > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro >> >> > Henriques >> >> > > Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 11:43 AM >> >> > > To: [email protected] >> >> > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia >> >> > > >> >> > > On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 4:12 PM, Fernandes, Jose < >> >> > > [email protected]> wrote: >> >> > > >> >> > > > Miguel, >> >> > > > Interesting that the family, as you know, uses Pacheco >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > Yes, for two generations they use Gouveia Pacheco. And with that >> name >> >> > they >> >> > > administer the "Capela" from the morgadio established by Rodrigo >> Anes >> >> and >> >> > > Isabel Pires.. >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > > and only much later goes back to the Rodrigues de Gouveia. That is >> >> > > somewhat >> >> > > > unusual, unless the other names were more powerful. >> >> > > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > > To add to Beatriz's parents' confusion, please remember that later >> a >> >> > > Brites >> >> > > > Chamorra wins that famous name trial re: Cunha because her >> ancestors >> >> > were >> >> > > Da >> >> > > > Cunha from the Carvalho Pais. So at some time we have to deal with >> >> that >> >> > > > side. >> >> > > > >> >> > > >> >> > > That famous trial is a powerful piece. As you know they won against >> D. >> >> > > Pedro >> >> > > Álvares da Cunha, a grandee of the the Kingdom, Trinchante-Mor da >> Casa >> >> > > Real, >> >> > > (he was also Governor of Madeira), from the archi-noble Cunhas da >> >> Tábua. >> >> > So >> >> > > they probably had access to some documentation that meanwhile was >> >> lost. >> >> > > Anyway, nice to watch, the obscure Rodrigues de Gouveia defeating >> that >> >> > Big >> >> > > Fish. >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > > Miguel, I real believe that Vaz was not aware of the marriage in >> Sé. >> >> In >> >> > > the >> >> > > > genealogy, he says that Francisco married around 1540 or later. So >> >> he >> >> > > wasn't >> >> > > > aware of this certificate or if he was he dismissed it. >> >> > > > >> >> > > > I was surprised to see on RTPi that Setubal today was going colder >> >> than >> >> > > the >> >> > > > interior! >> >> > > > >> >> > > >> >> > > Well, I didn't know about that. For the moment it is a sunny sunny >> >> day, >> >> > > cold >> >> > > as ice. >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > I am on my 3d cup of steaming tea. One has to drink it fast >> otherwise >> >> it >> >> > > gets cold in no time at all. >> >> > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > José >> >> > > > >> >> > > > -----Original Message----- >> >> > > > From: [email protected] [mailto: >> >> > > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro >> >> > > Henriques >> >> > > > Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 10:56 AM >> >> > > > To: [email protected] >> >> > > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de >> Gouveia >> >> > > > >> >> > > > José, >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > Miguel, >> >> > > > > Congratulations on this find! I believe you and I (among others) >> >> > share >> >> > > > this >> >> > > > > family. >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > Thanks. I'm just amazed how this escaped the genealogists. Were >> >> they >> >> > > > kindly >> >> > > > leaving something for us to discover? ; -) >> >> > > > >> >> > > > Yes, I have at least two or three lines to our Gaspar Rodrigues. >> >> > > > >> >> > > > Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia is my great (12) grandfather and is >> >> > though >> >> > > > > his son Gaspar that the line continues until our marriage with >> >> > > > Escolástica >> >> > > > > de Bettencourt. >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > Yes, the "Morgadinha" ; -) Fortunately I downloaded all the >> >> Rodrigues >> >> > de >> >> > > > Gouveia >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > > I suspect you don't have the original marriage certificate >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > I have a photocopy of the original. (The priest had a magnificent >> >> > > > handwriting, clear, elegant, incisive). The addition of beatriz >> glz >> >> de >> >> > > leam >> >> > > > (no capital letters) >> >> > > > is his, no doubt. >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > > and that if you did, would you be able to scan it and send it to >> >> my >> >> > > > > personal account. >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > For the moment I am planning to buy a scanner. The old one is >> kaput. >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > > Otherwise, I will be ordering the certificate. >> >> > > > > I also have the Vaz geneology, where I got most of my >> information, >> >> > and >> >> > > I >> >> > > > > share your amazement that they did not seem to be aware of the >> >> Leão >> >> > > > > connection. >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > It escaped them. I can't see another explanation. It has the clues >> >> to >> >> > > find >> >> > > > out who were Beatriz Gonçalves de Leam de Chamorro's parents. She >> >> must >> >> > > be >> >> > > > one of the persons from that era with the longest name. Trivial as >> >> it >> >> > is >> >> > > > today for a Portuguese to have 4 names, it wasn't in those times. >> >> > > > It would have been signaled. >> >> > > > Also there is the fact that she's called "de Chamorra". Unusual >> >> among >> >> > the >> >> > > > Chamorras who never used that "de" >> >> > > > >> >> > > > But what do we have here? First the son of Francisco Rodrigues de >> >> > Gouveia >> >> > > > and Beatriz Chamorra, is Rui Chamorro, Almost as a rule the sons >> >> used >> >> > > their >> >> > > > father's name. Not in this case. What can it mean? It means that >> the >> >> > > > Chamorro name was more important than the Rodrigues de Gouveia. So >> >> this >> >> > > > allows us to conjecture that their Chamorro was linked with the >> top >> >> > > > Chamorros, descendants of the "Porteiro dos cativos", Pedro >> >> Chamorro, >> >> > > FCR. >> >> > > > Otherwise he would have used, as Gapsar did, the Rodrigues de >> >> Gouveia >> >> > > name. >> >> > > > Though there are no strict rules. And everything is possible as >> >> regards >> >> > > use >> >> > > > of names of the parents. >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > > You don't have Brites parents? >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > No. In the Carvalho Pais title our Brites Chamorra is presented as >> >> dau. >> >> > > of >> >> > > > Brites Chamorra married to a Carvalho Pais. It was the respectable >> >> > > Meneses >> >> > > > Vaz who wrote that title. However due to new data it's, to say the >> >> > least, >> >> > > > questionable. >> >> > > > >> >> > > > But now with the Gonçalves de Leam clue we're forced to admit that >> >> she >> >> > > was >> >> > > > the dau, of a Gonçalves de Leam and a Chamorra. Remember in that >> >> time >> >> > the >> >> > > > first name was the father's, the second the mother's name. >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > All we can say it that we added more Italian blood, the Leam >> >> (Leone?) >> >> > to >> >> > > > our >> >> > > > tree. >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > > They were not available on the Vaz list. So, Vaz may not have >> >> known. >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > That's what surprises me. If he knew he did not show it. If he did >> >> not >> >> > > show >> >> > > > it but he knew it, well....But, genealogically speaking, he had >> too. >> >> > It's >> >> > > > too fundamental a clue to be discarded. Anyway for Vaz a bastard >> >> line >> >> > was >> >> > > > not a matter of shame, or something to hide (like HHN did >> >> sometimes). >> >> > > > Furthermore the Leam were "good" families, top bourgeoisie. >> perhaps >> >> > even >> >> > > > descendants of Italian nobility, They were linked to the Spínolas. >> >> And >> >> > > the >> >> > > > Spínolas were one of the top Madeiran families. So this Leam link >> >> that >> >> > > > Beatriz undoubtedly carries "had" perforce to be explored. >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > > Bastard line? >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > I don't think so.Furthermore with such a big name. >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > > The Alentejo cold does help your research! >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > Thanks Siberian cold on the way, "Vaga de frio monumental" >> >> > Scandianavian >> >> > > > countries 41 degrees below zero (Fahrenheit scale). Temperatures >> >> below >> >> > > zero >> >> > > > in Portugal interior. handle me that rum, or vodka or whatever, >> >> please! >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > Miguel >> >> > > > >> >> > > > José >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > -----Original Message----- >> >> > > > > From: [email protected] [mailto: >> >> > > > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro >> >> > > > Henriques >> >> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2010 7:46 PM >> >> > > > > To: [email protected] >> >> > > > > Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > I found an old marriage register to which I did not concede >> much >> >> > > > > importance >> >> > > > > at the time. Now I see that it connects with a discussion about >> >> F.co >> >> > > > > Rodrigues de Gouveia we had here a year ago or so. Was he >> >> Licenciado >> >> > or >> >> > > > > not? >> >> > > > > Was it a forgery? (his marriage document, as Paulo contended). >> >> Well, >> >> > it >> >> > > > > seems that it was not. Let's see why. >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > Anyway here we go. It's the marriage certificate of Isabel Leal >> m. >> >> > Rui >> >> > > > > Chamorro, (1577, Sé do Funchal). >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > She is the dau, of F.co da Costa de Siqueira and Leonor >> Rodrigues. >> >> > (The >> >> > > > > Costa de Siqueira were noble, and are relatively well known). >> Him, >> >> > Rui >> >> > > > > Chamorro, son of Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia >> >> (already >> >> > > dead) >> >> > > > > and his wife - and here is the surprise ..*.Beatriz Gonçalves de >> >> Leam >> >> > > de >> >> > > > > Chamorra !!* >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > The document is original, The words "Gonçalves de Leam de" were >> >> added >> >> > > > with >> >> > > > > the very same writing of the priest who wrote the document (I >> have >> >> no >> >> > > > doubt >> >> > > > > about it. It was the priest. It's not an added and clever >> forgery, >> >> i >> >> > > bet >> >> > > > > strongly on that). Anyway It's a name extraodinarily long for >> that >> >> > > time. >> >> > > > > And >> >> > > > > containing explosive and brand new information. >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > The Leão were from Italian origin, merchants. "Mercadores do >> >> trauto >> >> > do >> >> > > > > assucar" (They came very early to Madeira, around 1472). They >> >> > > established >> >> > > > > themselves in Funchal.They were later and, no surprisingly, >> >> connected >> >> > > by >> >> > > > > marriage with the Spínolas.. They were upper bourgeoisie, at >> >> least. >> >> > > > > A Licenciado Diogo de Leão existed around that time. Probably a >> >> > > relative? >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > In this document we have evidence that a Licenciado Francisco >> >> > Rodrigues >> >> > > > de >> >> > > > > Gouveia truly existed. So in face of this document we are forced >> >> to >> >> > say >> >> > > > he >> >> > > > > is documented and his full name was truly Francisco Rodrigues de >> >> > > Gouveia. >> >> > > > > Now he was supposed to be married to a just Brites Chamorra by >> >> > several >> >> > > > > leading genealogists (Meneses Vaz included) >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > Here from ARM database: Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia, Dr. >> >> > > > > Beatriz >> >> > > > > Chamorra Sé 1539 46 7 v.º >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > But how come no one mentioned the "Gonçalves de Leam" of Beatriz >> >> > > > Chamorra? >> >> > > > > It was mandatory! Because it's an extremely interesting and >> >> central >> >> > > > detail >> >> > > > > which could lead to a connection, still unknown , between the >> Leão >> >> > and >> >> > > > the >> >> > > > > Chamorros. What is said here is that it (that connection) >> >> blatantly >> >> > > > > existed. >> >> > > > > This Chamorra had Leam (Leão) blood. That no genealogist said it >> >> > > before. >> >> > > > > And >> >> > > > > that, just amazes me. >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > The witness were João Rodrigues Escórcio - well known character. >> >> Joam >> >> > > > > Carvalho. Pedro Feo (Feio) and Francisco Jorge. All the witness >> as >> >> is >> >> > > > > fitting for the marriage of a Licenciado could read and write. >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > I think Joam Carvalho was a judge. >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > Anyway all this is really groovy and juicy. >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > I leave here this info.because I think very strange that none of >> >> the >> >> > > > > leading >> >> > > > > genealogists (of reference, I know and studied almost them all >> but >> >> I >> >> > > > won't >> >> > > > > quote all their names) referred it. Especially those who wrote >> >> the >> >> > > > > Rodrigues de Gouveia title as well as the Lopes Esteves title >> >> (patent >> >> > > in >> >> > > > > the >> >> > > > > old and regreted NESOS). Had they seen it they were "condemned" >> to >> >> > > refer >> >> > > > > this Beatriz Gonçalves de Leam de Chamorra. They would have been >> >> as >> >> > > > > stupefied as I am. Did this document eluded them? I don't >> believe >> >> > that >> >> > > > > having seen it they would discard it,. They were too >> knowledgeable >> >> to >> >> > > do >> >> > > > > it. >> >> > > > > Besides it has a promising discovery adventure appended to it. >> So >> >> I >> >> > > have >> >> > > > to >> >> > > > > concede that this document that I got pretty easily escaped >> their >> >> > > > > attention, >> >> > > > > or was stuck in an old pile behind a desk or something at their >> >> time. >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > Of course this interests half Madeira, since half Madeira >> descends >> >> > from >> >> > > > the >> >> > > > > Rodrigues de Gouveia. >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > Cheers, >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > Miguel >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > ------------------------------- >> >> > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> >> > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >> >> without >> >> > > the >> >> > > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > ------------------------------- >> >> > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> >> > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >> >> without >> >> > > the >> >> > > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > ------------------------------- >> >> > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> >> > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >> >> without >> >> > the >> >> > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > ------------------------------- >> >> > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> >> > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >> >> without >> >> > the >> >> > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> > > > >> >> > > >> >> > > ------------------------------- >> >> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> >> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without >> >> the >> >> > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > ------------------------------- >> >> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> >> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without >> >> the >> >> > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> > ------------------------------- >> >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> >> > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> >> the >> >> > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > ------------------------------- >> >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> >> > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> >> the >> >> > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> > >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the >> >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the >> >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> > >> > >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

>From Pereira de Agrela. On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 11:05 PM, Paulo Santos Perneta <[email protected]>wrote: > How do you know that he was Fidalgo da Casa Real? > > Paulo > > Miguel de Castro Henriques <[email protected]> wrote > in Fri, 8 Jan 2010 00:39:04 +0000: > > > Pero Feo is probably from the Feios Lobos --- Procedem de Pêro Feio, > > fidalgo da Casa Real, que casou duas vezes, uma com Maria Calaça e outra > com > > Maria Rodrigues em 1552, na Sé. > > > > On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 12:46 AM, Miguel de Castro Henriques < > > [email protected]> wrote: > > > >> > >> > >> I found an old marriage register to which I did not concede much > >> importance at the time. Now I see that it connects with a discussion > about > >> F.co Rodrigues de Gouveia we had here a year ago or so. Was he > Licenciado or > >> not? Was it a forgery? (his marriage document, as Paulo contended). > Well, it > >> seems that it was not. Let's see why. > >> > >> Anyway here we go. It's the marriage certificate of Isabel Leal m. Rui > >> Chamorro, (1577, Sé do Funchal). > >> > >> She is the dau, of F.co da Costa de Siqueira and Leonor Rodrigues. (The > >> Costa de Siqueira were noble, and are relatively well known). Him, Rui > >> Chamorro, son of Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia (already > dead) > >> and his wife - and here is the surprise ..*.Beatriz Gonçalves de Leam de > >> Chamorra !!* > >> > >> The document is original, The words "Gonçalves de Leam de" were added > with > >> the very same writing of the priest who wrote the document (I have no > doubt > >> about it. It was the priest. It's not an added and clever forgery, i bet > >> strongly on that). Anyway It's a name extraodinarily long for that time. > And > >> containing explosive and brand new information. > >> > >> The Leão were from Italian origin, merchants. "Mercadores do trauto do > >> assucar" (They came very early to Madeira, around 1472). They > established > >> themselves in Funchal.They were later and, no surprisingly, connected by > >> marriage with the Spínolas.. They were upper bourgeoisie, at least. > >> A Licenciado Diogo de Leão existed around that time. Probably a > relative? > >> > >> In this document we have evidence that a Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues > de > >> Gouveia truly existed. So in face of this document we are forced to say > he > >> is documented and his full name was truly Francisco Rodrigues de > Gouveia. > >> Now he was supposed to be married to a just Brites Chamorra by several > >> leading genealogists (Meneses Vaz included) > >> > >> Here from ARM database: Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia, Dr. > >> Beatriz Chamorra Sé 1539 46 7 v.º > >> > >> But how come no one mentioned the "Gonçalves de Leam" of Beatriz > Chamorra? > >> It was mandatory! Because it's an extremely interesting and central > detail > >> which could lead to a connection, still unknown , between the Leão and > the > >> Chamorros. What is said here is that it (that connection) blatantly > existed. > >> This Chamorra had Leam (Leão) blood. That no genealogist said it before. > And > >> that, just amazes me. > >> > >> > >> The witness were João Rodrigues Escórcio - well known character. Joam > >> Carvalho. Pedro Feo (Feio) and Francisco Jorge. All the witness as is > >> fitting for the marriage of a Licenciado could read and write. > >> > >> I think Joam Carvalho was a judge. > >> > >> Anyway all this is really groovy and juicy. > >> > >> > >> I leave here this info.because I think very strange that none of the > >> leading genealogists (of reference, I know and studied almost them all > but I > >> won't quote all their names) referred it. Especially those who wrote > the > >> Rodrigues de Gouveia title as well as the Lopes Esteves title (patent in > the > >> old and regreted NESOS). Had they seen it they were "condemned" to refer > >> this Beatriz Gonçalves de Leam de Chamorra. They would have been as > >> stupefied as I am. Did this document eluded them? I don't believe that > >> having seen it they would discard it,. They were too knowledgeable to do > it. > >> Besides it has a promising discovery adventure appended to it. So I have > to > >> concede that this document that I got pretty easily escaped their > >> attention, or was stuck in an old pile behind a desk or something at > their > >> time. > >> > >> > >> Of course this interests half Madeira, since half Madeira descends from > the > >> Rodrigues de Gouveia. > >> > >> > >> Cheers, > >> > >> > >> Miguel > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Hello Paulo, Nice to see you back, iI just arrived from my Pilates hour. Lots of mails, you send. I'll start by this last. And will comment, perhaps not today, the others, as well. I don't have here my notes but it seems that Isabel Leal had another Isabel married to António Gonçalves. About the Isabel Leal Rui Chamorro registo. You say it's a forgery, the Gonçalves de Leam addition. Of course I read it in a copy, not the original, which you say was written in two inks, one the document per se, the other the addition or supposed forgery.. But that two-inks situation precisely IMO adds credibility to the fact that it was the priest himself (same handwriting) who added it. A forger would have chosen the same ink. The fact that it's a totally different ink, immediately recognizable may evidence not a forgery but an addition, or a precision. by the priest himself. If the forger, on other hand was so smart that he imitated so well the priest handwriting, why would he drop the easiest part to imitate: the ink? It seems too careless. Too infantile. And that is precisely the embarrassing detail : On one hand a forger with a super-capacity to imitate the handrwiritng, on other hand as stupid as to do it with another ink? Thus denouncing himself and destroying the credibility of the document. "Cousa mui estranha". I did'nt konw about that Alferes RO, But Madeira seems to be fertile in forgeries. Just recently I became aware of the HHN's forgery (that you certainly know) about his ancestor João Afonso soi disant or rather descendant Correia. Not a noblemasn from the Correias of Fralães, and friend and companion of Zarco, but just a wealthy and smart merchant. HHN erased one or two documents and added "Correa", and thus started the legend of Joa~ço Afonsoi Corrêa which infected Felgueiras and others as well. On other hand it seems that the real Corrêa, possibly from Farlães, was the wife of Jioão Afonso... Anyway these forgeries are a social case study. It seems there are quite many. And they reveal loads not only about the families who once resorted to them but also abiout the acceptability they eventually had. The forgeries becoming truths, of course. Cheers, Miguel On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 10:49 PM, Paulo Santos Perneta <[email protected]>wrote: > Miguel, > > There is a good reason why nobody will ever ask for a certificate of > the marriage of Rui Chamorro with Isabel Leal to prove his genealogy: > They have not left any descendants. > > In any case, that one is perhaps the least forget of the set. The > others are a disgrace: The marriage of Francisco and Beatriz is > totally faked, and the marriage of Gaspar with Ana de Castro has been > thoroughly adulterated. I also found two christening records > purporting to be from Francisco Rodrigues and Beatriz, which are in > fact from Licº Francisco Rodrigues and his wife Ana de Guimarães. > Fortunately in that case we can still read from behind the forgery. > > Now, I don't know who did this or with what intention, and frankly I'm > not that interested. I suspect who the forgers are, as I've followed > the trail of forged documents to an Alferes in Santo António well into > the 18th century. I seem to recall that it is the Rodrigues de > Oliveira family. There was a clear intention of changing the varonia > to the Rodrigues de Gouveia, and then all other forgeries follow upside. > > Though I'm not an expert on those things, I would throw a wild guess > that it could have been forged sometime at the end of the 18th > century, early 19th at most, trying to give a good lineage and some > nobility to an otherwise absolutely vulgar farmer family of Santo > António. The forgeries appear in the Sé and Santo António parish > books, though most of the time they simply append "Alferes" or > "Capitão" to the men and "D." to the woman. It's very pathetic indeed. > :S > > Paulo > > > > > Miguel de Castro Henriques <[email protected]> wrote > in Thu, 7 Jan 2010 21:36:16 +0000: > > > On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 7:23 PM, Fernandes, Jose < > > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > >> Miguel, > >> I agree with you. Do you think all of this might have to do with the > Cunha > >> case? > > > > > > José, > > > > I really don't see very well the Rodrigues de Gouveia faking all these > > documents (or asking someone to do it) to win the case against the all > > powerful Pedro Álvares da Cunha. The documents had to be checked and > > re~checked. Pedro Álvares da Cunha was too big a fish to get swallowed by > > any amount of fake documents. He had the best lawyers and court people > and > > experts working for him. They would detect the slightest irregularities > in > > the papers and documents. Even better than any of us and perhaps any > > contemporary expert. It was their world, their language, their style of > > writing. They would be able to detect fakers and forgeries quite easily. > > People from these days were subtle..\ Just have a look at their > handwriting > > many times elegant, precise, elaborate.and each one seemed to have its > > personal style. Just compare to today's handwriting- generally amorphous, > > poor, without style. > > > > > > On other hand the document from which I started all my considerations is > > from the ARM database. Now, let me tell this. The ARM is a provider of > > legal documents. The documents we ask to ARM has in its database have > legal > > force to prove something like : our being candidates to a heritage, > asking > > for a title of nobility, asking for a coat of arms, wanting to change our > > name and surname and proving an ancestor had that name, etc. I mean every > > register in the ARM is not there per chance. It had to be demonstrated > that > > it was accurate, before they included it in their database. So every > > marriage doc. every baptismal goes through the hands of experts. > Forgeries > > are no admissible, since they are legal documents guaranteed by the > State.. > > Otherwise no one would take seriously that ARM and its database. Of > course, > > even so, an extremely clever and old forgery could pass the eyes of > experts. > > Though the filters are more and more accurate. I believe we are now in > the > > 2nd and third generation of experts in the ARM after its foundation. > Second, > > at least, though João Cabral could be my ggfather. Moreover they have a > > tradition of very good professionalism. So if they admit a document in > their > > database it is only after close scrutiny by experts on the field.. And > for > > scientific and legal reasons it can not be otherwise. > > > > > > So we have here an interesting case. If the doc. I have mentioned is a > > forgery, then the experts of the ARM were not able to identify it. But I > > doubt it very strongly. What interests more a genealogist are precisely > the > > two first centuries of Madeiran documents. It's there that their > attention > > is more focused. So, i think that the document I have (the photocopy of > it) > > is sound and clear and moreover authenticated by ARM experts. I can use > it > > legally to prove that for instance for having a claim for using the > > Chamorros coat of arms,. since I descend from them with only three breaks > on > > the male lineage. I won't, of course. But that's an open possibility for > > somebody else who requires the services of the ARM and finds the very > same > > document and wants to do that precislçey that. And the ARM documents have > > that legal force, they are decisive and final proof. That's why they are > > authenticated, with the seal of the Government. > > > > > > > > > >> One could pick sides in all of this! > >> It is too bad that Paulo is m.i.a., for he had a strong feeling about > this. > >> > > > > > > Yes. He had a strong stand on all this - But I don't have his particular > > opinion on this document. He contested others. Not this one. > > > > > > > >> It is possible that he just chose to believe Bernardo. > > > > > > Yes. He is a bit fast IMO dismissing the document. > > > > > > > >> Howver, you make a good case. So what do we do now? Throw out the > Carvalho > >> Pais? > >> > >> > > Not yet, though I am not clinging to them specially. Half of Portugal > > descends from the Carvalhos de Basto, from which the Carvalhos pais are > > minor madeiran branch. > > > > I think we have to study where this Leam link leads. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> Hope you are feeling a bit warmer. > >> > > > > > > Yeah. Just came from my Pilates class, and am feeling OK. > > > > > > Miguel > > > >> > >> José > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: [email protected] [mailto: > >> [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro > Henriques > >> Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 1:48 PM > >> To: [email protected] > >> Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia > >> > >> On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 5:21 PM, Fernandes, Jose < > >> [email protected]> wrote: > >> > >> > Miguel, > >> > I am just reading the Rodrigues de Gouveia genealogy, and on note #8 > >> > Bernado Gomes Ferreira (?) writes that there is acertificate of > marriage > >> > for out two, but " existe-mas é como não existisse. > >> > >> > >> Ah good find José. I missed it. > >> > >> Obscure words, he said. Anyway he ought to refer to it with more > precision, > >> IMO. And I think that the document is valid, and was all written by the > >> hand > >> of Vicente Afonso, cura. > >> > >> Now there is no doubt for me that it was written by the Cura Vicente > >> Afonso. > >> And signed, among others by João Rodrigues Escórcio, who later acted as > >> testamenteiro of the will of F.co Rodrigues de Gouveia, thus confirming > >> their relationship. > >> > >> However I don't know if Menses Vaz is referring the same document. > >> > >> > >> > >> > ..E uma cousa inautêntica" and that's why in Bernardo's opinion Vaz > did > >> not > >> > pay attention to it. What do you think of that? > >> > > >> > >> I think that Menses Vaz had a misfired shot. The document seems to me > >> "cousa > >> autêntica". It would perhaps alter Menses Vaz genealogy of the Carvalho > >> Pais > >> (as far as beatriz Chamorra is regarded), so the horrified magister > send > >> the document to hell, without having the trouble to explain why. > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > I guess I am having problems with an Italian connection!!! > >> > > >> > >> mmmm. Italian connections are always problematic ; -))) > >> > >> > >> Miguel > >> > >> > >> > >> > José > >> > > >> > -----Original Message----- > >> > From: [email protected] [mailto: > >> > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro > >> Henriques > >> > Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 11:43 AM > >> > To: [email protected] > >> > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia > >> > > >> > On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 4:12 PM, Fernandes, Jose < > >> > [email protected]> wrote: > >> > > >> > > Miguel, > >> > > Interesting that the family, as you know, uses Pacheco > >> > > >> > > >> > Yes, for two generations they use Gouveia Pacheco. And with that name > >> they > >> > administer the "Capela" from the morgadio established by Rodrigo Anes > and > >> > Isabel Pires.. > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > and only much later goes back to the Rodrigues de Gouveia. That is > >> > somewhat > >> > > unusual, unless the other names were more powerful. > >> > > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > To add to Beatriz's parents' confusion, please remember that later a > >> > Brites > >> > > Chamorra wins that famous name trial re: Cunha because her ancestors > >> were > >> > Da > >> > > Cunha from the Carvalho Pais. So at some time we have to deal with > that > >> > > side. > >> > > > >> > > >> > That famous trial is a powerful piece. As you know they won against D. > >> > Pedro > >> > Álvares da Cunha, a grandee of the the Kingdom, Trinchante-Mor da Casa > >> > Real, > >> > (he was also Governor of Madeira), from the archi-noble Cunhas da > Tábua. > >> So > >> > they probably had access to some documentation that meanwhile was > lost. > >> > Anyway, nice to watch, the obscure Rodrigues de Gouveia defeating that > >> Big > >> > Fish. > >> > > >> > > >> > > Miguel, I real believe that Vaz was not aware of the marriage in Sé. > In > >> > the > >> > > genealogy, he says that Francisco married around 1540 or later. So > he > >> > wasn't > >> > > aware of this certificate or if he was he dismissed it. > >> > > > >> > > I was surprised to see on RTPi that Setubal today was going colder > than > >> > the > >> > > interior! > >> > > > >> > > >> > Well, I didn't know about that. For the moment it is a sunny sunny > day, > >> > cold > >> > as ice. > >> > > >> > > >> > I am on my 3d cup of steaming tea. One has to drink it fast otherwise > it > >> > gets cold in no time at all. > >> > > >> > > > >> > > José > >> > > > >> > > -----Original Message----- > >> > > From: [email protected] [mailto: > >> > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro > >> > Henriques > >> > > Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 10:56 AM > >> > > To: [email protected] > >> > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia > >> > > > >> > > José, > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > Miguel, > >> > > > Congratulations on this find! I believe you and I (among others) > >> share > >> > > this > >> > > > family. > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > Thanks. I'm just amazed how this escaped the genealogists. Were > they > >> > > kindly > >> > > leaving something for us to discover? ; -) > >> > > > >> > > Yes, I have at least two or three lines to our Gaspar Rodrigues. > >> > > > >> > > Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia is my great (12) grandfather and is > >> though > >> > > > his son Gaspar that the line continues until our marriage with > >> > > Escolástica > >> > > > de Bettencourt. > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > Yes, the "Morgadinha" ; -) Fortunately I downloaded all the > Rodrigues > >> de > >> > > Gouveia > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > I suspect you don't have the original marriage certificate > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > I have a photocopy of the original. (The priest had a magnificent > >> > > handwriting, clear, elegant, incisive). The addition of beatriz glz > de > >> > leam > >> > > (no capital letters) > >> > > is his, no doubt. > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > and that if you did, would you be able to scan it and send it to > my > >> > > > personal account. > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > For the moment I am planning to buy a scanner. The old one is kaput. > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > Otherwise, I will be ordering the certificate. > >> > > > I also have the Vaz geneology, where I got most of my information, > >> and > >> > I > >> > > > share your amazement that they did not seem to be aware of the > Leão > >> > > > connection. > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > It escaped them. I can't see another explanation. It has the clues > to > >> > find > >> > > out who were Beatriz Gonçalves de Leam de Chamorro's parents. She > must > >> > be > >> > > one of the persons from that era with the longest name. Trivial as > it > >> is > >> > > today for a Portuguese to have 4 names, it wasn't in those times. > >> > > It would have been signaled. > >> > > Also there is the fact that she's called "de Chamorra". Unusual > among > >> the > >> > > Chamorras who never used that "de" > >> > > > >> > > But what do we have here? First the son of Francisco Rodrigues de > >> Gouveia > >> > > and Beatriz Chamorra, is Rui Chamorro, Almost as a rule the sons > used > >> > their > >> > > father's name. Not in this case. What can it mean? It means that the > >> > > Chamorro name was more important than the Rodrigues de Gouveia. So > this > >> > > allows us to conjecture that their Chamorro was linked with the top > >> > > Chamorros, descendants of the "Porteiro dos cativos", Pedro > Chamorro, > >> > FCR. > >> > > Otherwise he would have used, as Gapsar did, the Rodrigues de > Gouveia > >> > name. > >> > > Though there are no strict rules. And everything is possible as > regards > >> > use > >> > > of names of the parents. > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > You don't have Brites parents? > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > No. In the Carvalho Pais title our Brites Chamorra is presented as > dau. > >> > of > >> > > Brites Chamorra married to a Carvalho Pais. It was the respectable > >> > Meneses > >> > > Vaz who wrote that title. However due to new data it's, to say the > >> least, > >> > > questionable. > >> > > > >> > > But now with the Gonçalves de Leam clue we're forced to admit that > she > >> > was > >> > > the dau, of a Gonçalves de Leam and a Chamorra. Remember in that > time > >> the > >> > > first name was the father's, the second the mother's name. > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > All we can say it that we added more Italian blood, the Leam > (Leone?) > >> to > >> > > our > >> > > tree. > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > They were not available on the Vaz list. So, Vaz may not have > known. > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > That's what surprises me. If he knew he did not show it. If he did > not > >> > show > >> > > it but he knew it, well....But, genealogically speaking, he had too. > >> It's > >> > > too fundamental a clue to be discarded. Anyway for Vaz a bastard > line > >> was > >> > > not a matter of shame, or something to hide (like HHN did > sometimes). > >> > > Furthermore the Leam were "good" families, top bourgeoisie. perhaps > >> even > >> > > descendants of Italian nobility, They were linked to the Spínolas. > And > >> > the > >> > > Spínolas were one of the top Madeiran families. So this Leam link > that > >> > > Beatriz undoubtedly carries "had" perforce to be explored. > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > Bastard line? > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > I don't think so.Furthermore with such a big name. > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > The Alentejo cold does help your research! > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > Thanks Siberian cold on the way, "Vaga de frio monumental" > >> Scandianavian > >> > > countries 41 degrees below zero (Fahrenheit scale). Temperatures > below > >> > zero > >> > > in Portugal interior. handle me that rum, or vodka or whatever, > please! > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > Miguel > >> > > > >> > > José > >> > > > > >> > > > -----Original Message----- > >> > > > From: [email protected] [mailto: > >> > > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro > >> > > Henriques > >> > > > Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2010 7:46 PM > >> > > > To: [email protected] > >> > > > Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia > >> > > > > >> > > > I found an old marriage register to which I did not concede much > >> > > > importance > >> > > > at the time. Now I see that it connects with a discussion about > F.co > >> > > > Rodrigues de Gouveia we had here a year ago or so. Was he > Licenciado > >> or > >> > > > not? > >> > > > Was it a forgery? (his marriage document, as Paulo contended). > Well, > >> it > >> > > > seems that it was not. Let's see why. > >> > > > > >> > > > Anyway here we go. It's the marriage certificate of Isabel Leal m. > >> Rui > >> > > > Chamorro, (1577, Sé do Funchal). > >> > > > > >> > > > She is the dau, of F.co da Costa de Siqueira and Leonor Rodrigues. > >> (The > >> > > > Costa de Siqueira were noble, and are relatively well known). Him, > >> Rui > >> > > > Chamorro, son of Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia > (already > >> > dead) > >> > > > and his wife - and here is the surprise ..*.Beatriz Gonçalves de > Leam > >> > de > >> > > > Chamorra !!* > >> > > > > >> > > > The document is original, The words "Gonçalves de Leam de" were > added > >> > > with > >> > > > the very same writing of the priest who wrote the document (I have > no > >> > > doubt > >> > > > about it. It was the priest. It's not an added and clever forgery, > i > >> > bet > >> > > > strongly on that). Anyway It's a name extraodinarily long for that > >> > time. > >> > > > And > >> > > > containing explosive and brand new information. > >> > > > > >> > > > The Leão were from Italian origin, merchants. "Mercadores do > trauto > >> do > >> > > > assucar" (They came very early to Madeira, around 1472). They > >> > established > >> > > > themselves in Funchal.They were later and, no surprisingly, > connected > >> > by > >> > > > marriage with the Spínolas.. They were upper bourgeoisie, at > least. > >> > > > A Licenciado Diogo de Leão existed around that time. Probably a > >> > relative? > >> > > > > >> > > > In this document we have evidence that a Licenciado Francisco > >> Rodrigues > >> > > de > >> > > > Gouveia truly existed. So in face of this document we are forced > to > >> say > >> > > he > >> > > > is documented and his full name was truly Francisco Rodrigues de > >> > Gouveia. > >> > > > Now he was supposed to be married to a just Brites Chamorra by > >> several > >> > > > leading genealogists (Meneses Vaz included) > >> > > > > >> > > > Here from ARM database: Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia, Dr. > >> > > > Beatriz > >> > > > Chamorra Sé 1539 46 7 v.º > >> > > > > >> > > > But how come no one mentioned the "Gonçalves de Leam" of Beatriz > >> > > Chamorra? > >> > > > It was mandatory! Because it's an extremely interesting and > central > >> > > detail > >> > > > which could lead to a connection, still unknown , between the Leão > >> and > >> > > the > >> > > > Chamorros. What is said here is that it (that connection) > blatantly > >> > > > existed. > >> > > > This Chamorra had Leam (Leão) blood. That no genealogist said it > >> > before. > >> > > > And > >> > > > that, just amazes me. > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > The witness were João Rodrigues Escórcio - well known character. > Joam > >> > > > Carvalho. Pedro Feo (Feio) and Francisco Jorge. All the witness as > is > >> > > > fitting for the marriage of a Licenciado could read and write. > >> > > > > >> > > > I think Joam Carvalho was a judge. > >> > > > > >> > > > Anyway all this is really groovy and juicy. > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > I leave here this info.because I think very strange that none of > the > >> > > > leading > >> > > > genealogists (of reference, I know and studied almost them all but > I > >> > > won't > >> > > > quote all their names) referred it. Especially those who wrote > the > >> > > > Rodrigues de Gouveia title as well as the Lopes Esteves title > (patent > >> > in > >> > > > the > >> > > > old and regreted NESOS). Had they seen it they were "condemned" to > >> > refer > >> > > > this Beatriz Gonçalves de Leam de Chamorra. They would have been > as > >> > > > stupefied as I am. Did this document eluded them? I don't believe > >> that > >> > > > having seen it they would discard it,. They were too knowledgeable > to > >> > do > >> > > > it. > >> > > > Besides it has a promising discovery adventure appended to it. So > I > >> > have > >> > > to > >> > > > concede that this document that I got pretty easily escaped their > >> > > > attention, > >> > > > or was stuck in an old pile behind a desk or something at their > time. > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > Of course this interests half Madeira, since half Madeira descends > >> from > >> > > the > >> > > > Rodrigues de Gouveia. > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > Cheers, > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > Miguel > >> > > > > >> > > > ------------------------------- > >> > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > >> > the > >> > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > ------------------------------- > >> > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > >> > the > >> > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > > > > >> > > > >> > > ------------------------------- > >> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > >> the > >> > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > ------------------------------- > >> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > >> the > >> > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > > > >> > > >> > ------------------------------- > >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > >> > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > > >> > > >> > ------------------------------- > >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > >> > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > > >> > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >> > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

How do you know that he was Fidalgo da Casa Real? Paulo Miguel de Castro Henriques <[email protected]> wrote in Fri, 8 Jan 2010 00:39:04 +0000: > Pero Feo is probably from the Feios Lobos --- Procedem de Pêro Feio, > fidalgo da Casa Real, que casou duas vezes, uma com Maria Calaça e outra com > Maria Rodrigues em 1552, na Sé. > > On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 12:46 AM, Miguel de Castro Henriques < > [email protected]> wrote: > >> >> >> I found an old marriage register to which I did not concede much >> importance at the time. Now I see that it connects with a discussion about >> F.co Rodrigues de Gouveia we had here a year ago or so. Was he Licenciado or >> not? Was it a forgery? (his marriage document, as Paulo contended). Well, it >> seems that it was not. Let's see why. >> >> Anyway here we go. It's the marriage certificate of Isabel Leal m. Rui >> Chamorro, (1577, Sé do Funchal). >> >> She is the dau, of F.co da Costa de Siqueira and Leonor Rodrigues. (The >> Costa de Siqueira were noble, and are relatively well known). Him, Rui >> Chamorro, son of Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia (already dead) >> and his wife - and here is the surprise ..*.Beatriz Gonçalves de Leam de >> Chamorra !!* >> >> The document is original, The words "Gonçalves de Leam de" were added with >> the very same writing of the priest who wrote the document (I have no doubt >> about it. It was the priest. It's not an added and clever forgery, i bet >> strongly on that). Anyway It's a name extraodinarily long for that time. And >> containing explosive and brand new information. >> >> The Leão were from Italian origin, merchants. "Mercadores do trauto do >> assucar" (They came very early to Madeira, around 1472). They established >> themselves in Funchal.They were later and, no surprisingly, connected by >> marriage with the Spínolas.. They were upper bourgeoisie, at least. >> A Licenciado Diogo de Leão existed around that time. Probably a relative? >> >> In this document we have evidence that a Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de >> Gouveia truly existed. So in face of this document we are forced to say he >> is documented and his full name was truly Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia. >> Now he was supposed to be married to a just Brites Chamorra by several >> leading genealogists (Meneses Vaz included) >> >> Here from ARM database: Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia, Dr. >> Beatriz Chamorra Sé 1539 46 7 v.º >> >> But how come no one mentioned the "Gonçalves de Leam" of Beatriz Chamorra? >> It was mandatory! Because it's an extremely interesting and central detail >> which could lead to a connection, still unknown , between the Leão and the >> Chamorros. What is said here is that it (that connection) blatantly existed. >> This Chamorra had Leam (Leão) blood. That no genealogist said it before. And >> that, just amazes me. >> >> >> The witness were João Rodrigues Escórcio - well known character. Joam >> Carvalho. Pedro Feo (Feio) and Francisco Jorge. All the witness as is >> fitting for the marriage of a Licenciado could read and write. >> >> I think Joam Carvalho was a judge. >> >> Anyway all this is really groovy and juicy. >> >> >> I leave here this info.because I think very strange that none of the >> leading genealogists (of reference, I know and studied almost them all but I >> won't quote all their names) referred it. Especially those who wrote the >> Rodrigues de Gouveia title as well as the Lopes Esteves title (patent in the >> old and regreted NESOS). Had they seen it they were "condemned" to refer >> this Beatriz Gonçalves de Leam de Chamorra. They would have been as >> stupefied as I am. Did this document eluded them? I don't believe that >> having seen it they would discard it,. They were too knowledgeable to do it. >> Besides it has a promising discovery adventure appended to it. So I have to >> concede that this document that I got pretty easily escaped their >> attention, or was stuck in an old pile behind a desk or something at their >> time. >> >> >> Of course this interests half Madeira, since half Madeira descends from the >> Rodrigues de Gouveia. >> >> >> Cheers, >> >> >> Miguel >> >> >> >> >> > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Miguel, There is a good reason why nobody will ever ask for a certificate of the marriage of Rui Chamorro with Isabel Leal to prove his genealogy: They have not left any descendants. In any case, that one is perhaps the least forget of the set. The others are a disgrace: The marriage of Francisco and Beatriz is totally faked, and the marriage of Gaspar with Ana de Castro has been thoroughly adulterated. I also found two christening records purporting to be from Francisco Rodrigues and Beatriz, which are in fact from Licº Francisco Rodrigues and his wife Ana de Guimarães. Fortunately in that case we can still read from behind the forgery. Now, I don't know who did this or with what intention, and frankly I'm not that interested. I suspect who the forgers are, as I've followed the trail of forged documents to an Alferes in Santo António well into the 18th century. I seem to recall that it is the Rodrigues de Oliveira family. There was a clear intention of changing the varonia to the Rodrigues de Gouveia, and then all other forgeries follow upside. Though I'm not an expert on those things, I would throw a wild guess that it could have been forged sometime at the end of the 18th century, early 19th at most, trying to give a good lineage and some nobility to an otherwise absolutely vulgar farmer family of Santo António. The forgeries appear in the Sé and Santo António parish books, though most of the time they simply append "Alferes" or "Capitão" to the men and "D." to the woman. It's very pathetic indeed. :S Paulo Miguel de Castro Henriques <[email protected]> wrote in Thu, 7 Jan 2010 21:36:16 +0000: > On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 7:23 PM, Fernandes, Jose < > [email protected]> wrote: > > > >> Miguel, >> I agree with you. Do you think all of this might have to do with the Cunha >> case? > > > José, > > I really don't see very well the Rodrigues de Gouveia faking all these > documents (or asking someone to do it) to win the case against the all > powerful Pedro Álvares da Cunha. The documents had to be checked and > re~checked. Pedro Álvares da Cunha was too big a fish to get swallowed by > any amount of fake documents. He had the best lawyers and court people and > experts working for him. They would detect the slightest irregularities in > the papers and documents. Even better than any of us and perhaps any > contemporary expert. It was their world, their language, their style of > writing. They would be able to detect fakers and forgeries quite easily. > People from these days were subtle..\ Just have a look at their handwriting > many times elegant, precise, elaborate.and each one seemed to have its > personal style. Just compare to today's handwriting- generally amorphous, > poor, without style. > > > On other hand the document from which I started all my considerations is > from the ARM database. Now, let me tell this. The ARM is a provider of > legal documents. The documents we ask to ARM has in its database have legal > force to prove something like : our being candidates to a heritage, asking > for a title of nobility, asking for a coat of arms, wanting to change our > name and surname and proving an ancestor had that name, etc. I mean every > register in the ARM is not there per chance. It had to be demonstrated that > it was accurate, before they included it in their database. So every > marriage doc. every baptismal goes through the hands of experts. Forgeries > are no admissible, since they are legal documents guaranteed by the State.. > Otherwise no one would take seriously that ARM and its database. Of course, > even so, an extremely clever and old forgery could pass the eyes of experts. > Though the filters are more and more accurate. I believe we are now in the > 2nd and third generation of experts in the ARM after its foundation. Second, > at least, though João Cabral could be my ggfather. Moreover they have a > tradition of very good professionalism. So if they admit a document in their > database it is only after close scrutiny by experts on the field.. And for > scientific and legal reasons it can not be otherwise. > > > So we have here an interesting case. If the doc. I have mentioned is a > forgery, then the experts of the ARM were not able to identify it. But I > doubt it very strongly. What interests more a genealogist are precisely the > two first centuries of Madeiran documents. It's there that their attention > is more focused. So, i think that the document I have (the photocopy of it) > is sound and clear and moreover authenticated by ARM experts. I can use it > legally to prove that for instance for having a claim for using the > Chamorros coat of arms,. since I descend from them with only three breaks on > the male lineage. I won't, of course. But that's an open possibility for > somebody else who requires the services of the ARM and finds the very same > document and wants to do that precislçey that. And the ARM documents have > that legal force, they are decisive and final proof. That's why they are > authenticated, with the seal of the Government. > > > > >> One could pick sides in all of this! >> It is too bad that Paulo is m.i.a., for he had a strong feeling about this. >> > > > Yes. He had a strong stand on all this - But I don't have his particular > opinion on this document. He contested others. Not this one. > > > >> It is possible that he just chose to believe Bernardo. > > > Yes. He is a bit fast IMO dismissing the document. > > > >> Howver, you make a good case. So what do we do now? Throw out the Carvalho >> Pais? >> >> > Not yet, though I am not clinging to them specially. Half of Portugal > descends from the Carvalhos de Basto, from which the Carvalhos pais are > minor madeiran branch. > > I think we have to study where this Leam link leads. > > > > > > >> Hope you are feeling a bit warmer. >> > > > Yeah. Just came from my Pilates class, and am feeling OK. > > > Miguel > >> >> José >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [email protected] [mailto: >> [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro Henriques >> Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 1:48 PM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia >> >> On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 5:21 PM, Fernandes, Jose < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >> > Miguel, >> > I am just reading the Rodrigues de Gouveia genealogy, and on note #8 >> > Bernado Gomes Ferreira (?) writes that there is acertificate of marriage >> > for out two, but " existe-mas é como não existisse. >> >> >> Ah good find José. I missed it. >> >> Obscure words, he said. Anyway he ought to refer to it with more precision, >> IMO. And I think that the document is valid, and was all written by the >> hand >> of Vicente Afonso, cura. >> >> Now there is no doubt for me that it was written by the Cura Vicente >> Afonso. >> And signed, among others by João Rodrigues Escórcio, who later acted as >> testamenteiro of the will of F.co Rodrigues de Gouveia, thus confirming >> their relationship. >> >> However I don't know if Menses Vaz is referring the same document. >> >> >> >> > ..E uma cousa inautêntica" and that's why in Bernardo's opinion Vaz did >> not >> > pay attention to it. What do you think of that? >> > >> >> I think that Menses Vaz had a misfired shot. The document seems to me >> "cousa >> autêntica". It would perhaps alter Menses Vaz genealogy of the Carvalho >> Pais >> (as far as beatriz Chamorra is regarded), so the horrified magister send >> the document to hell, without having the trouble to explain why. >> >> >> >> >> > I guess I am having problems with an Italian connection!!! >> > >> >> mmmm. Italian connections are always problematic ; -))) >> >> >> Miguel >> >> >> >> > José >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: [email protected] [mailto: >> > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro >> Henriques >> > Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 11:43 AM >> > To: [email protected] >> > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia >> > >> > On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 4:12 PM, Fernandes, Jose < >> > [email protected]> wrote: >> > >> > > Miguel, >> > > Interesting that the family, as you know, uses Pacheco >> > >> > >> > Yes, for two generations they use Gouveia Pacheco. And with that name >> they >> > administer the "Capela" from the morgadio established by Rodrigo Anes and >> > Isabel Pires.. >> > >> > >> > >> > > and only much later goes back to the Rodrigues de Gouveia. That is >> > somewhat >> > > unusual, unless the other names were more powerful. >> > > >> > >> > >> > >> > > To add to Beatriz's parents' confusion, please remember that later a >> > Brites >> > > Chamorra wins that famous name trial re: Cunha because her ancestors >> were >> > Da >> > > Cunha from the Carvalho Pais. So at some time we have to deal with that >> > > side. >> > > >> > >> > That famous trial is a powerful piece. As you know they won against D. >> > Pedro >> > Álvares da Cunha, a grandee of the the Kingdom, Trinchante-Mor da Casa >> > Real, >> > (he was also Governor of Madeira), from the archi-noble Cunhas da Tábua. >> So >> > they probably had access to some documentation that meanwhile was lost. >> > Anyway, nice to watch, the obscure Rodrigues de Gouveia defeating that >> Big >> > Fish. >> > >> > >> > > Miguel, I real believe that Vaz was not aware of the marriage in Sé. In >> > the >> > > genealogy, he says that Francisco married around 1540 or later. So he >> > wasn't >> > > aware of this certificate or if he was he dismissed it. >> > > >> > > I was surprised to see on RTPi that Setubal today was going colder than >> > the >> > > interior! >> > > >> > >> > Well, I didn't know about that. For the moment it is a sunny sunny day, >> > cold >> > as ice. >> > >> > >> > I am on my 3d cup of steaming tea. One has to drink it fast otherwise it >> > gets cold in no time at all. >> > >> > > >> > > José >> > > >> > > -----Original Message----- >> > > From: [email protected] [mailto: >> > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro >> > Henriques >> > > Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 10:56 AM >> > > To: [email protected] >> > > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia >> > > >> > > José, >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > Miguel, >> > > > Congratulations on this find! I believe you and I (among others) >> share >> > > this >> > > > family. >> > > >> > > >> > > Thanks. I'm just amazed how this escaped the genealogists. Were they >> > > kindly >> > > leaving something for us to discover? ; -) >> > > >> > > Yes, I have at least two or three lines to our Gaspar Rodrigues. >> > > >> > > Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia is my great (12) grandfather and is >> though >> > > > his son Gaspar that the line continues until our marriage with >> > > Escolástica >> > > > de Bettencourt. >> > > > >> > > >> > > Yes, the "Morgadinha" ; -) Fortunately I downloaded all the Rodrigues >> de >> > > Gouveia >> > > >> > > >> > > > I suspect you don't have the original marriage certificate >> > > >> > > >> > > I have a photocopy of the original. (The priest had a magnificent >> > > handwriting, clear, elegant, incisive). The addition of beatriz glz de >> > leam >> > > (no capital letters) >> > > is his, no doubt. >> > > >> > > >> > > > and that if you did, would you be able to scan it and send it to my >> > > > personal account. >> > > >> > > >> > > For the moment I am planning to buy a scanner. The old one is kaput. >> > > >> > > >> > > > Otherwise, I will be ordering the certificate. >> > > > I also have the Vaz geneology, where I got most of my information, >> and >> > I >> > > > share your amazement that they did not seem to be aware of the Leão >> > > > connection. >> > > >> > > >> > > It escaped them. I can't see another explanation. It has the clues to >> > find >> > > out who were Beatriz Gonçalves de Leam de Chamorro's parents. She must >> > be >> > > one of the persons from that era with the longest name. Trivial as it >> is >> > > today for a Portuguese to have 4 names, it wasn't in those times. >> > > It would have been signaled. >> > > Also there is the fact that she's called "de Chamorra". Unusual among >> the >> > > Chamorras who never used that "de" >> > > >> > > But what do we have here? First the son of Francisco Rodrigues de >> Gouveia >> > > and Beatriz Chamorra, is Rui Chamorro, Almost as a rule the sons used >> > their >> > > father's name. Not in this case. What can it mean? It means that the >> > > Chamorro name was more important than the Rodrigues de Gouveia. So this >> > > allows us to conjecture that their Chamorro was linked with the top >> > > Chamorros, descendants of the "Porteiro dos cativos", Pedro Chamorro, >> > FCR. >> > > Otherwise he would have used, as Gapsar did, the Rodrigues de Gouveia >> > name. >> > > Though there are no strict rules. And everything is possible as regards >> > use >> > > of names of the parents. >> > > >> > > >> > > > You don't have Brites parents? >> > > >> > > >> > > No. In the Carvalho Pais title our Brites Chamorra is presented as dau. >> > of >> > > Brites Chamorra married to a Carvalho Pais. It was the respectable >> > Meneses >> > > Vaz who wrote that title. However due to new data it's, to say the >> least, >> > > questionable. >> > > >> > > But now with the Gonçalves de Leam clue we're forced to admit that she >> > was >> > > the dau, of a Gonçalves de Leam and a Chamorra. Remember in that time >> the >> > > first name was the father's, the second the mother's name. >> > > >> > > >> > > All we can say it that we added more Italian blood, the Leam (Leone?) >> to >> > > our >> > > tree. >> > > >> > > >> > > > They were not available on the Vaz list. So, Vaz may not have known. >> > > >> > > >> > > That's what surprises me. If he knew he did not show it. If he did not >> > show >> > > it but he knew it, well....But, genealogically speaking, he had too. >> It's >> > > too fundamental a clue to be discarded. Anyway for Vaz a bastard line >> was >> > > not a matter of shame, or something to hide (like HHN did sometimes). >> > > Furthermore the Leam were "good" families, top bourgeoisie. perhaps >> even >> > > descendants of Italian nobility, They were linked to the Spínolas. And >> > the >> > > Spínolas were one of the top Madeiran families. So this Leam link that >> > > Beatriz undoubtedly carries "had" perforce to be explored. >> > > >> > > >> > > > Bastard line? >> > > > >> > > >> > > I don't think so.Furthermore with such a big name. >> > > >> > > >> > > > The Alentejo cold does help your research! >> > > > >> > > > >> > > Thanks Siberian cold on the way, "Vaga de frio monumental" >> Scandianavian >> > > countries 41 degrees below zero (Fahrenheit scale). Temperatures below >> > zero >> > > in Portugal interior. handle me that rum, or vodka or whatever, please! >> > > >> > > >> > > Miguel >> > > >> > > José >> > > > >> > > > -----Original Message----- >> > > > From: [email protected] [mailto: >> > > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro >> > > Henriques >> > > > Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2010 7:46 PM >> > > > To: [email protected] >> > > > Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia >> > > > >> > > > I found an old marriage register to which I did not concede much >> > > > importance >> > > > at the time. Now I see that it connects with a discussion about F.co >> > > > Rodrigues de Gouveia we had here a year ago or so. Was he Licenciado >> or >> > > > not? >> > > > Was it a forgery? (his marriage document, as Paulo contended). Well, >> it >> > > > seems that it was not. Let's see why. >> > > > >> > > > Anyway here we go. It's the marriage certificate of Isabel Leal m. >> Rui >> > > > Chamorro, (1577, Sé do Funchal). >> > > > >> > > > She is the dau, of F.co da Costa de Siqueira and Leonor Rodrigues. >> (The >> > > > Costa de Siqueira were noble, and are relatively well known). Him, >> Rui >> > > > Chamorro, son of Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia (already >> > dead) >> > > > and his wife - and here is the surprise ..*.Beatriz Gonçalves de Leam >> > de >> > > > Chamorra !!* >> > > > >> > > > The document is original, The words "Gonçalves de Leam de" were added >> > > with >> > > > the very same writing of the priest who wrote the document (I have no >> > > doubt >> > > > about it. It was the priest. It's not an added and clever forgery, i >> > bet >> > > > strongly on that). Anyway It's a name extraodinarily long for that >> > time. >> > > > And >> > > > containing explosive and brand new information. >> > > > >> > > > The Leão were from Italian origin, merchants. "Mercadores do trauto >> do >> > > > assucar" (They came very early to Madeira, around 1472). They >> > established >> > > > themselves in Funchal.They were later and, no surprisingly, connected >> > by >> > > > marriage with the Spínolas.. They were upper bourgeoisie, at least. >> > > > A Licenciado Diogo de Leão existed around that time. Probably a >> > relative? >> > > > >> > > > In this document we have evidence that a Licenciado Francisco >> Rodrigues >> > > de >> > > > Gouveia truly existed. So in face of this document we are forced to >> say >> > > he >> > > > is documented and his full name was truly Francisco Rodrigues de >> > Gouveia. >> > > > Now he was supposed to be married to a just Brites Chamorra by >> several >> > > > leading genealogists (Meneses Vaz included) >> > > > >> > > > Here from ARM database: Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia, Dr. >> > > > Beatriz >> > > > Chamorra Sé 1539 46 7 v.º >> > > > >> > > > But how come no one mentioned the "Gonçalves de Leam" of Beatriz >> > > Chamorra? >> > > > It was mandatory! Because it's an extremely interesting and central >> > > detail >> > > > which could lead to a connection, still unknown , between the Leão >> and >> > > the >> > > > Chamorros. What is said here is that it (that connection) blatantly >> > > > existed. >> > > > This Chamorra had Leam (Leão) blood. That no genealogist said it >> > before. >> > > > And >> > > > that, just amazes me. >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > The witness were João Rodrigues Escórcio - well known character. Joam >> > > > Carvalho. Pedro Feo (Feio) and Francisco Jorge. All the witness as is >> > > > fitting for the marriage of a Licenciado could read and write. >> > > > >> > > > I think Joam Carvalho was a judge. >> > > > >> > > > Anyway all this is really groovy and juicy. >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > I leave here this info.because I think very strange that none of the >> > > > leading >> > > > genealogists (of reference, I know and studied almost them all but I >> > > won't >> > > > quote all their names) referred it. Especially those who wrote the >> > > > Rodrigues de Gouveia title as well as the Lopes Esteves title (patent >> > in >> > > > the >> > > > old and regreted NESOS). Had they seen it they were "condemned" to >> > refer >> > > > this Beatriz Gonçalves de Leam de Chamorra. They would have been as >> > > > stupefied as I am. Did this document eluded them? I don't believe >> that >> > > > having seen it they would discard it,. They were too knowledgeable to >> > do >> > > > it. >> > > > Besides it has a promising discovery adventure appended to it. So I >> > have >> > > to >> > > > concede that this document that I got pretty easily escaped their >> > > > attention, >> > > > or was stuck in an old pile behind a desk or something at their time. >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > Of course this interests half Madeira, since half Madeira descends >> from >> > > the >> > > > Rodrigues de Gouveia. >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > Cheers, >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > Miguel >> > > > >> > > > ------------------------------- >> > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> > the >> > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > ------------------------------- >> > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> > the >> > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > >> > > >> > > ------------------------------- >> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the >> > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > >> > > >> > > ------------------------------- >> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the >> > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > >> > >> > ------------------------------- >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > >> > >> > ------------------------------- >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Hi Pat, I'm sorry, I've a complicated relationship with my email eheh I hope everything is OK with you. I've just arrived from Madeira. I've not been that much around Estrº da Calheta records, but rather around Santana, Machico, Porto da Cruz, Santa Cruz, São Jorge, Faial and even Ponta do Pargo... With some interesting findings. :) Next time I'm planning to do Ponta do Sol, Estrº da Calheta, Estrº de Camª de Lobos and maybe S. Vicente and Ponta Delgada. I'm avoiding Arco da Calheta, as I always end up a bit frustrated with those records. :S Paulo Pat Corbera <[email protected]> wrote in Thu, 7 Jan 2010 21:10:48 +0000 (UTC): > Jose Thank You > > Very intersting... Great Find Miguel! Where is Paulo, he comes in > and out of our lives like the wind. ;-))...Pat > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jose Fernandes" <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2010 12:28:35 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia > > Pat, > Yes. > For example Brites or Beatriz Chamorro married in 1612 to Francisco > Lopes Esteves, and therefore Miguel reference to this genealogy, is > a granddaughter of our Francisco. Her mother was Ana de Castro. The > other Brites or Beatriz are identified in other genealogies i.e. > Chamorro etc., but they are somewhat all related. > The surnames go from Vaz Rebelo, Cunha, Barros, de Sousa, Chamorro, > Ferreira, Castro. This is just to mention the ones I am related to. > > José > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Pat Corbera > Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 3:07 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia > > Jose, > > Are you saying that you have more than one Beatriz Chamorro in your > data base/family lines? > > If so, what other surnames appear with Beatriz Chamorro in those lines? > > Pat > p.s. I personally didn't have one... > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jose Fernandes" <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2010 11:06:20 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia > > Miguel/Pat > I don't what your comments refer to, because these Beatriz, all from > the same family, are not the same. Miguel (and I assume others) > have these Beatriz in our family line and we do know who they are. > What we don't have are Beatriz's parents- the one from 1539. > And we still have Bernardo's opinion in all of this. > Is Beatriz just a Chamorro and Carvalho Pais (Cunha) /andor is she > also a Gonçalves Leão? > > José > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de > Castro Henriques > Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 1:51 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia > > Pat, > > Good find, but for the moment I don't know who they are. They don't seem to > appear in their place, the Rodrigues de Gouveia genealogy. But they probably > connect. > > Miguel > > > > > On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 6:11 PM, Pat Corbera > <[email protected]>wrote: > >> Miguel and Jose, >> >> Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia, Dr. Beatriz Chamorra Sé 1539 46 7 v.º >> João Ferreira Beatriz Chamorra Santo António 1705 211 53 v.º >> Manuel Gomes Beatriz Chamorra São Martinho 1697 241 43 >> >> Who are the other two Beatriz Chamorra ladies? >> >> Pat >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Jose Fernandes" <[email protected]> >> To: [email protected] >> Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2010 9:21:38 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific >> Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia >> >> Miguel, >> I am just reading the Rodrigues de Gouveia genealogy, and on note #8 >> Bernado Gomes Ferreira (?) writes that there is acertificate of marriage >> for out two, but " existe-mas é como não existisse...E uma cousa >> inautêntica" and that's why in Bernardo's opinion Vaz did not pay attention >> to it. What do you think of that? >> I guess I am having problems with an Italian connection!!! >> José >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [email protected] [mailto: >> [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro Henriques >> Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 11:43 AM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia >> >> On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 4:12 PM, Fernandes, Jose < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >> > Miguel, >> > Interesting that the family, as you know, uses Pacheco >> >> >> Yes, for two generations they use Gouveia Pacheco. And with that name they >> administer the "Capela" from the morgadio established by Rodrigo Anes and >> Isabel Pires.. >> >> >> >> > and only much later goes back to the Rodrigues de Gouveia. That is >> somewhat >> > unusual, unless the other names were more powerful. >> > >> >> >> >> > To add to Beatriz's parents' confusion, please remember that later a >> Brites >> > Chamorra wins that famous name trial re: Cunha because her ancestors were >> Da >> > Cunha from the Carvalho Pais. So at some time we have to deal with that >> > side. >> > >> >> That famous trial is a powerful piece. As you know they won against D. >> Pedro >> Álvares da Cunha, a grandee of the the Kingdom, Trinchante-Mor da Casa >> Real, >> (he was also Governor of Madeira), from the archi-noble Cunhas da Tábua. So >> they probably had access to some documentation that meanwhile was lost. >> Anyway, nice to watch, the obscure Rodrigues de Gouveia defeating that Big >> Fish. >> >> >> > Miguel, I real believe that Vaz was not aware of the marriage in Sé. In >> the >> > genealogy, he says that Francisco married around 1540 or later. So he >> wasn't >> > aware of this certificate or if he was he dismissed it. >> > >> > I was surprised to see on RTPi that Setubal today was going colder than >> the >> > interior! >> > >> >> Well, I didn't know about that. For the moment it is a sunny sunny day, >> cold >> as ice. >> >> >> I am on my 3d cup of steaming tea. One has to drink it fast otherwise it >> gets cold in no time at all. >> >> > >> > José >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: [email protected] [mailto: >> > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro >> Henriques >> > Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 10:56 AM >> > To: [email protected] >> > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia >> > >> > José, >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Miguel, >> > > Congratulations on this find! I believe you and I (among others) share >> > this >> > > family. >> > >> > >> > Thanks. I'm just amazed how this escaped the genealogists. Were they >> > kindly >> > leaving something for us to discover? ; -) >> > >> > Yes, I have at least two or three lines to our Gaspar Rodrigues. >> > >> > Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia is my great (12) grandfather and is though >> > > his son Gaspar that the line continues until our marriage with >> > Escolástica >> > > de Bettencourt. >> > > >> > >> > Yes, the "Morgadinha" ; -) Fortunately I downloaded all the Rodrigues de >> > Gouveia >> > >> > >> > > I suspect you don't have the original marriage certificate >> > >> > >> > I have a photocopy of the original. (The priest had a magnificent >> > handwriting, clear, elegant, incisive). The addition of beatriz glz de >> leam >> > (no capital letters) >> > is his, no doubt. >> > >> > >> > > and that if you did, would you be able to scan it and send it to my >> > > personal account. >> > >> > >> > For the moment I am planning to buy a scanner. The old one is kaput. >> > >> > >> > > Otherwise, I will be ordering the certificate. >> > > I also have the Vaz geneology, where I got most of my information, and >> I >> > > share your amazement that they did not seem to be aware of the Leão >> > > connection. >> > >> > >> > It escaped them. I can't see another explanation. It has the clues to >> find >> > out who were Beatriz Gonçalves de Leam de Chamorro's parents. She must >> be >> > one of the persons from that era with the longest name. Trivial as it is >> > today for a Portuguese to have 4 names, it wasn't in those times. >> > It would have been signaled. >> > Also there is the fact that she's called "de Chamorra". Unusual among the >> > Chamorras who never used that "de" >> > >> > But what do we have here? First the son of Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia >> > and Beatriz Chamorra, is Rui Chamorro, Almost as a rule the sons used >> their >> > father's name. Not in this case. What can it mean? It means that the >> > Chamorro name was more important than the Rodrigues de Gouveia. So this >> > allows us to conjecture that their Chamorro was linked with the top >> > Chamorros, descendants of the "Porteiro dos cativos", Pedro Chamorro, >> FCR. >> > Otherwise he would have used, as Gapsar did, the Rodrigues de Gouveia >> name. >> > Though there are no strict rules. And everything is possible as regards >> use >> > of names of the parents. >> > >> > >> > > You don't have Brites parents? >> > >> > >> > No. In the Carvalho Pais title our Brites Chamorra is presented as dau. >> of >> > Brites Chamorra married to a Carvalho Pais. It was the respectable >> Meneses >> > Vaz who wrote that title. However due to new data it's, to say the least, >> > questionable. >> > >> > But now with the Gonçalves de Leam clue we're forced to admit that she >> was >> > the dau, of a Gonçalves de Leam and a Chamorra. Remember in that time the >> > first name was the father's, the second the mother's name. >> > >> > >> > All we can say it that we added more Italian blood, the Leam (Leone?) to >> > our >> > tree. >> > >> > >> > > They were not available on the Vaz list. So, Vaz may not have known. >> > >> > >> > That's what surprises me. If he knew he did not show it. If he did not >> show >> > it but he knew it, well....But, genealogically speaking, he had too. It's >> > too fundamental a clue to be discarded. Anyway for Vaz a bastard line was >> > not a matter of shame, or something to hide (like HHN did sometimes). >> > Furthermore the Leam were "good" families, top bourgeoisie. perhaps even >> > descendants of Italian nobility, They were linked to the Spínolas. And >> the >> > Spínolas were one of the top Madeiran families. So this Leam link that >> > Beatriz undoubtedly carries "had" perforce to be explored. >> > >> > >> > > Bastard line? >> > > >> > >> > I don't think so.Furthermore with such a big name. >> > >> > >> > > The Alentejo cold does help your research! >> > > >> > > >> > Thanks Siberian cold on the way, "Vaga de frio monumental" Scandianavian >> > countries 41 degrees below zero (Fahrenheit scale). Temperatures below >> zero >> > in Portugal interior. handle me that rum, or vodka or whatever, please! >> > >> > >> > Miguel >> > >> > José >> > > >> > > -----Original Message----- >> > > From: [email protected] [mailto: >> > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro >> > Henriques >> > > Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2010 7:46 PM >> > > To: [email protected] >> > > Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia >> > > >> > > I found an old marriage register to which I did not concede much >> > > importance >> > > at the time. Now I see that it connects with a discussion about F.co >> > > Rodrigues de Gouveia we had here a year ago or so. Was he Licenciado or >> > > not? >> > > Was it a forgery? (his marriage document, as Paulo contended). Well, it >> > > seems that it was not. Let's see why. >> > > >> > > Anyway here we go. It's the marriage certificate of Isabel Leal m. Rui >> > > Chamorro, (1577, Sé do Funchal). >> > > >> > > She is the dau, of F.co da Costa de Siqueira and Leonor Rodrigues. (The >> > > Costa de Siqueira were noble, and are relatively well known). Him, Rui >> > > Chamorro, son of Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia (already >> dead) >> > > and his wife - and here is the surprise ..*.Beatriz Gonçalves de Leam >> de >> > > Chamorra !!* >> > > >> > > The document is original, The words "Gonçalves de Leam de" were added >> > with >> > > the very same writing of the priest who wrote the document (I have no >> > doubt >> > > about it. It was the priest. It's not an added and clever forgery, i >> bet >> > > strongly on that). Anyway It's a name extraodinarily long for that >> time. >> > > And >> > > containing explosive and brand new information. >> > > >> > > The Leão were from Italian origin, merchants. "Mercadores do trauto do >> > > assucar" (They came very early to Madeira, around 1472). They >> established >> > > themselves in Funchal.They were later and, no surprisingly, connected >> by >> > > marriage with the Spínolas.. They were upper bourgeoisie, at least. >> > > A Licenciado Diogo de Leão existed around that time. Probably a >> relative? >> > > >> > > In this document we have evidence that a Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues >> > de >> > > Gouveia truly existed. So in face of this document we are forced to say >> > he >> > > is documented and his full name was truly Francisco Rodrigues de >> Gouveia. >> > > Now he was supposed to be married to a just Brites Chamorra by several >> > > leading genealogists (Meneses Vaz included) >> > > >> > > Here from ARM database: Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia, Dr. >> > > Beatriz >> > > Chamorra Sé 1539 46 7 v.º >> > > >> > > But how come no one mentioned the "Gonçalves de Leam" of Beatriz >> > Chamorra? >> > > It was mandatory! Because it's an extremely interesting and central >> > detail >> > > which could lead to a connection, still unknown , between the Leão and >> > the >> > > Chamorros. What is said here is that it (that connection) blatantly >> > > existed. >> > > This Chamorra had Leam (Leão) blood. That no genealogist said it >> before. >> > > And >> > > that, just amazes me. >> > > >> > > >> > > The witness were João Rodrigues Escórcio - well known character. Joam >> > > Carvalho. Pedro Feo (Feio) and Francisco Jorge. All the witness as is >> > > fitting for the marriage of a Licenciado could read and write. >> > > >> > > I think Joam Carvalho was a judge. >> > > >> > > Anyway all this is really groovy and juicy. >> > > >> > > >> > > I leave here this info.because I think very strange that none of the >> > > leading >> > > genealogists (of reference, I know and studied almost them all but I >> > won't >> > > quote all their names) referred it. Especially those who wrote the >> > > Rodrigues de Gouveia title as well as the Lopes Esteves title (patent >> in >> > > the >> > > old and regreted NESOS). Had they seen it they were "condemned" to >> refer >> > > this Beatriz Gonçalves de Leam de Chamorra. They would have been as >> > > stupefied as I am. Did this document eluded them? I don't believe that >> > > having seen it they would discard it,. They were too knowledgeable to >> do >> > > it. >> > > Besides it has a promising discovery adventure appended to it. So I >> have >> > to >> > > concede that this document that I got pretty easily escaped their >> > > attention, >> > > or was stuck in an old pile behind a desk or something at their time. >> > > >> > > >> > > Of course this interests half Madeira, since half Madeira descends from >> > the Rodrigues de Gouveia. >> > > >> > > >> > > Cheers, >> > > >> > > >> > > Miguel >> >> > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Paulo, I am quite familiar with the Martins de Nobrega of Santo de Serra...and may be back looking for the link as I do not have this Martins de Nobrega ancestor you mention in my tree. Also I am also interested in your João de Abreu e Freitas and D.Mariana de Menezes as they are Porto da Cruz and I am determined to one day link all of Porto da Cruz descendants together ;-) Anyway I have this couple in my tree, although Joao is just Abreu (no de Freitas). I don't however have either Joao de Abreu's parents nor D. Mariana de Menezes parents - if you have either I would be most obliged to get them! (In my tree Joao and Mariana are the parents of D. Catherine de Meneses who married Franciso Marques). Thanks, Cece -----Original Message----- From: Cece Camara [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 9:18 PM To: 'Cece-HQ' Subject: FW: [PT-MADEIRA] Azevedos Cardosos -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Paulo Santos Perneta Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 11:25 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Azevedos Cardosos Speaking of "prizes"... In the last month I had 2 great discoveries, which gave me the two best genealogical "prizes" of recent times. You see, I always wanted to descend from João Gago the fisherman. You could give me all the poets, kings and noblemen, but each time I cruised that street in Funchal it annoyed me that I had not a decent descent from him (in my lines or otherwise), especially when he left so many direct descendants. João Gago the fisherman has his place in the Pantheon of our first settlers. He was THE fisherman by excellence, father of a progeny of fishermen and seamen, the sea people who lived and worked in that so much beloved, omnipresent, nostalgic sea that is part of the soul of every Maderian. So well known he was, that the street where he lived was known - and named - after him. It was João Gago's street in the 15th century, and it still is today, right there, next to the cathedral, already there when there was still not a cathedral, and Funchal was the most promising village of his time. Anyway, I wanted to be João Gago descendant, and so I am - as I found out after some merges I was doing last month. And if you happen to descend from Pedro Fernandes de Chaves and Jerónima Caldeira (the Aldramas), you too have your passport to João Gago the fisherman, and his his wife Eva Gomes. :) The other breakthrough was in my great-grandmother Clara Pereira, from Monte, whose Pereiras were an early dead-end until very recently. Then I decided to rummage over the Monte christenings in the quest for the holy Pereiras, and TCHARAM - out of the last of those apparently boring Pereiras (in fact his wife, Isidoria Maria) came a pristine line of the best Madeira nobility. Ok, ok, not so pristine, as there is a bastardy, but it was quite unexpected, nevertheless. Isidoria Maria, 6th great-grandmother, wife of José Pereira, living in Monte - Quinta dos Reis, then Levada da Corujeira - Marmeleiros - where my great-grandmother family still lives). Isidoria was in fact daughter of Manuel de Nóbrega Duarte , from Gaula (son of Manuel de Nóbrega Duarte, ancestor of the Martins de Nóbrega, anyone with family in Santo da Serra would be familiar with them) and D. Isabel de Menezes, from Porto da Cruz, daughter of João de Abreu e Freitas and D.Mariana de Menezes, this one illegitimate (so said the genealogies, the marriage records are silent about her mother, while remarking who the father is) daughter of Capitão Jorge Moniz de Menezes, son of Diogo Pereira de Menezes (tº Homens de Sousa) and D.Catarina Leme de Aguiar (tº Morais). With some bias, I could wonder if the legendary prettiness and class of my Pereira great-great-aunts from Monte derived from that new found Olympus. However, after seeing some paintings of the most prominent Madeira nobility, I'm rather prone to believe that the prettiness came from somewhere else. As for the class, they certainly got it at the time they lived in Boston (my dear American aunts! :)). Anyway, we were speaking about Henri the German, my former ancestor: Not anymore. Sometime ago I got tired of hearing the cries of FAKE! FAKE! FAKE! coming from my brain each time I looked at the ancestors of Manuel Afonso Sentido and Guiomar Gomes, supported on some França Dória genealogy mentioned in Ilhas de Zargo. And so I finally unconnected them, putting an end to those tremendously faked ancestries to the Henriques Alemão and Henriques de Noronha, which were bringing more shame than glory. As a reward, I got the answer for one of the most interesting riddles about another setting of Henriques - the Henriques Abreu, also from Camara de Lobos. This time a genuine, credible connection, which brought on the Henriques das Alcaçovas, but that's another story... :) Cheers, Paulo Miguel de Castro Henriques <[email protected]> wrote in Wed, 27 Jan 2010 14:34:53 +0000: > Cece, > > Yes the ACs are one of the more tough títulos to go through. But I like it > difficult. > I am on it since 5 years or so.I might have not progressed half an inch. But > then I am like a crocodile, as soon as it bites something never let go. > Your prize there is HA., the top prize of all madeiran genealogical > research, so better think twice before giving up. > > > Speaking about that who or what would be the top treasures to find in one's > own tree? (if there is such a thing as "own tree", because after some > generations any tree inter-links with other people's trees in many ways) > > Anyway, personally, for my family panteon,: the poets, the poets first of > all, João Gomes, Tristão das Damas, João Rodrigues Cabral, Gomes Leal, > Cabral do Nascimento, Herberto Helder, António de Aragão...I got a direct > connection with the 3 first, an indirect with Gomes Leal ) (the greatest > portuguese symbolist poet) and Herberto is simply the best from the > contemporaries of all Portugal and Palops. I am investogating his Ferreiras. > With Cabral do Nascimento, and indirect connection he was linked to the > Caiados, and also the Cabrais, and one day I'll find a connection with the > Rodrigues Lourenço, from Ponta do Pargo, and voilà, > > Then as second best I treasure the navigators themselves: Zarco, and his > first companions (I already posted a list of them all, collected by prof. > Joel Serrão, a great madeiran and historian). I think it was one of my first > posts on this list. > > Then I don't know why, well I know a bit why ( they're such a chaotic, > complex and tragic family) the first Perestrelos. > > Then the first settlers and sesmeiros. > > I am aware that I should have a top ten list, well, but that's a start. > > Fialgos and nobles don't interest me that much. But they are generally nice > to find because sometimes they lead to medieval Portugal, my favorite > period. generally they are prolific people, not only within the realms of > their oficial family, but ouit of it. Bastards are so many. Natural sons and > daugthers. Some were carefully hiddedn, others not so much. I got loads. > They become secondary lines. They are sinuous, baroque, and romantic if not > libertine. I like complexity, caracther, hidden things, you see. > > What I don't liked (in my research) was to stumble upon any Gonçalves.,As > research progressed they would lead to other Gonçalves endlessly. My! How > they like that name Gonçalves. And I have loads of them in my tree, But > recently I believe I started to overcome that prejudice against Gonçalves > because a couple of Gonçalves lead me to the JRT, "O Gordo" (and I don't > know why I always liked that guy, now I know why, noblesse oblige) , also > Afonso da Mata, and an interesting Isabel Arrais de Mendonça. So, Ok, there > are Gonçalves and Gonçalves. One of the misleading Gonçalves I encountered > was a Gonçalves da Câmara ( 16 th century). > > When one starts this genealogical saga one's own tree is central. (at least > for me it was) Then "one's own" treesomehow starts to loose its importance > or centrality. One discovers one descends from all mankind. One own's tree > opens its vistas to a broader picture: it becomes like a genealogical > mandala, all including. > > Fun how genealogy helps psychological growth, and becomes a tool for the > open mind. > > Well, hope I did'nt bore you with my philosophical considerations. Great > weather in here, though terribly cold. (for us, cold is 7 º C above zero). > > > Miguel > > On Wed, Jan 27, 2010 at 1:43 PM, Cece Camara <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> Both the Roz and Isaura were taken directly from the Azevedos Cardosos by >> Pelo Conego Fernando Meneses Vaz. >> This one has been a nightmare for me to work as he uses different names for >> the same person in many places...and in addition there appears to be some >> possible errors in connections. >> I'm about to give up on this one ;-) >> >> Cece >> >> >> _____ >> >> From: Miguel de Castro Henriques [mailto:[email protected] >> ] >> Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2010 7:23 AM >> To: [email protected]; [email protected] >> Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Azevedos Cardosos >> >> >> Hello Cece, >> >> Let's start somewhere. >> >> >> Raz or Rás not Roz. It's a full name, not an abbreviation of Rodrigues. It >> could be derived from Arrais. >> >> Isoa not Isaura. Isoa is derived from Iseult or Yseult. From the classical >> Tristan and Iseult Arthurian story. Centuries before de Da Vinci Code, >> Madeiran gentry, especially from Gaula, was very keen on giving Arthurian >> names to their issue: Lançarote, from Lancelot. Galaz, from Sir Galahad, >> Tristão from Sir Tristram. (As a name, Isaura only appears in Madeira in >> the >> 19 th century, so it is quite a modern name) >> >> Título Henriques Alemão, starts with Henrique Alemâo, da Madalena do Mar, >> one of the most mysterious figures from Madeira Island. He had a title: >> Cavaleiro da Ordem de Santa Catarina do Monte Sinai. married Senhorinha >> Anes, from Algarvian and noble origins. So much has been written about >> Henrique Alemão that it is difficult to say more. He is madeiran myth >> Número >> Um, since then and probably will stay. (More than Ronaldo...). Nobiliários >> and legend had him as "Prince Polónio", prince from Poland. In those times >> anyone from north of France upwards was whatever his country "Alemão". The >> myth reports that he was actually the King of Poland himself, Ladislas >> Jagiello, who disappeared after the battle of Varna against the turks >> commanded by the legendary Sultan Ammurates. Books have been written by >> celebrated madeiran authors like Reis Gomes (O Cavaleiro de Santa >> Catarina). >> So what would you want more: a medieval king, a warrior, who disappears >> from >> the historical scene, only to re-emerge years later as a errant Knight in >> Madeira island? He never claimed he was that lost King. >> He was treated by Zarco, the Captain Donatário, with exceptional >> consideration and regards. When invited to Zarco's house - and Zarco was >> the >> leading man in Madeira, Zarco in person - not a mere servant - would serve >> him his meals, in "baixela de prata." This tells loads about the status of >> the caracther. >> When he was recognised as the lost King of Polland by several monks who had >> come from Polland to Madeira to implore him to return to his kingom, he >> dismissed them saying: Fools! >> >> But it seems that some time later the King of Portugal sent a ship to >> Madeira to bring him to Portugal. legend has that it was that when he was >> going by boat from Madalena do Mar to Funchal, to get on board, some rocks >> from a cliff fell down and the boat sank, and all the crew and passengers >> perished. Parts of his body were recovered from the sea. My brother, in >> Madeira saw his stone grave in which it is inscribed the Wheel of St. >> Catarina, the only coat of arms he ever used in Madeira. >> Right now in the most charming town of the whole world, Lisbon, at Museu de >> Arte Antiga there is currently an exhibition of madeiran paintings. One of >> the paintings, the most famous (from the 15 th century, Flanders school) is >> supposed to represent Henrique Alemão,posing as Saint Joachim, and >> Senhorinha Anes, as Saint Anne - the parents of the Virgin Mary. >> >> To be continued some day. >> >> Miguel >> >> >> >> >> >> On Wed, Jan 27, 2010 at 2:01 AM, Cece Camara <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> Just working this genealogia as the first few names in it are direct for me >> (namely Catarina Pires de Quintal, daughter of Pedro Lopes de Quintal). >> Further on I came across Nuno Goncalves Cardoso who married (it says) >> Catarina de Roz daughter of Nicolau de Roz and Isaura Perestrello. >> I've never seen the name Roz before - and it does not appear to be an >> abbreviation for Rodrigues as I initially thought. It also says they are >> from the Titulo de Henriques Alemao- another one I am not familiar with. >> Just thought I'd see if anyone can shed any more light on either of these >> names. >> Cece >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> >> Internal Virus Database is out of date. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 8.5.432 / Virus Database: 270.14.131/2609 - Release Date: 01/09/10 >> 07:35:00 >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.435 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2667 - Release Date: 02/04/10 07:35:00

Ehehe I chose to believe my own eyes, and if that record (the one from 1539) is not the most abominable forgery, I'll quickly produce a set of "authentic" parish records that prove "beyond all doubt" that Violeta Chamorra, president of the Filipinas, also descended from our dear Beatriz. Anyway, if that wasn't enough, Cabral do Nascimento explicitly forbade any certificate to be issued from the archives based on that marriage record, due to it's blatantly forged character. I don't recall very well the details of that court case involving the Chamorros, will have to look at it in the Rodrigues de Gouveia genealogy, one of these days... Paulo "Fernandes, Jose" <[email protected]> wrote in Thu, 7 Jan 2010 14:23:54 -0500: > Miguel, > I agree with you. Do you think all of this might have to do with the > Cunha case? One could pick sides in all of this! > It is too bad that Paulo is m.i.a., for he had a strong feeling > about this. It is possible that he just chose to believe Bernardo. > Howver, you make a good case. So what do we do now? Throw out the > Carvalho Pais? > > Hope you are feeling a bit warmer. > > José > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de > Castro Henriques > Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 1:48 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia > > On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 5:21 PM, Fernandes, Jose < > [email protected]> wrote: > >> Miguel, >> I am just reading the Rodrigues de Gouveia genealogy, and on note #8 >> Bernado Gomes Ferreira (?) writes that there is acertificate of marriage >> for out two, but " existe-mas é como não existisse. > > > Ah good find José. I missed it. > > Obscure words, he said. Anyway he ought to refer to it with more precision, > IMO. And I think that the document is valid, and was all written by the hand > of Vicente Afonso, cura. > > Now there is no doubt for me that it was written by the Cura Vicente Afonso. > And signed, among others by João Rodrigues Escórcio, who later acted as > testamenteiro of the will of F.co Rodrigues de Gouveia, thus confirming > their relationship. > > However I don't know if Menses Vaz is referring the same document. > > > >> ..E uma cousa inautêntica" and that's why in Bernardo's opinion Vaz did not >> pay attention to it. What do you think of that? >> > > I think that Menses Vaz had a misfired shot. The document seems to me "cousa > autêntica". It would perhaps alter Menses Vaz genealogy of the Carvalho Pais > (as far as beatriz Chamorra is regarded), so the horrified magister send > the document to hell, without having the trouble to explain why. > > > > >> I guess I am having problems with an Italian connection!!! >> > > mmmm. Italian connections are always problematic ; -))) > > > Miguel > > > >> José >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [email protected] [mailto: >> [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro Henriques >> Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 11:43 AM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia >> >> On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 4:12 PM, Fernandes, Jose < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >> > Miguel, >> > Interesting that the family, as you know, uses Pacheco >> >> >> Yes, for two generations they use Gouveia Pacheco. And with that name they >> administer the "Capela" from the morgadio established by Rodrigo Anes and >> Isabel Pires.. >> >> >> >> > and only much later goes back to the Rodrigues de Gouveia. That is >> somewhat >> > unusual, unless the other names were more powerful. >> > >> >> >> >> > To add to Beatriz's parents' confusion, please remember that later a >> Brites >> > Chamorra wins that famous name trial re: Cunha because her ancestors were >> Da >> > Cunha from the Carvalho Pais. So at some time we have to deal with that >> > side. >> > >> >> That famous trial is a powerful piece. As you know they won against D. >> Pedro >> Álvares da Cunha, a grandee of the the Kingdom, Trinchante-Mor da Casa >> Real, >> (he was also Governor of Madeira), from the archi-noble Cunhas da Tábua. So >> they probably had access to some documentation that meanwhile was lost. >> Anyway, nice to watch, the obscure Rodrigues de Gouveia defeating that Big >> Fish. >> >> >> > Miguel, I real believe that Vaz was not aware of the marriage in Sé. In >> the >> > genealogy, he says that Francisco married around 1540 or later. So he >> wasn't >> > aware of this certificate or if he was he dismissed it. >> > >> > I was surprised to see on RTPi that Setubal today was going colder than >> the >> > interior! >> > >> >> Well, I didn't know about that. For the moment it is a sunny sunny day, >> cold >> as ice. >> >> >> I am on my 3d cup of steaming tea. One has to drink it fast otherwise it >> gets cold in no time at all. >> >> > >> > José >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: [email protected] [mailto: >> > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro >> Henriques >> > Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 10:56 AM >> > To: [email protected] >> > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia >> > >> > José, >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Miguel, >> > > Congratulations on this find! I believe you and I (among others) share >> > this >> > > family. >> > >> > >> > Thanks. I'm just amazed how this escaped the genealogists. Were they >> > kindly >> > leaving something for us to discover? ; -) >> > >> > Yes, I have at least two or three lines to our Gaspar Rodrigues. >> > >> > Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia is my great (12) grandfather and is though >> > > his son Gaspar that the line continues until our marriage with >> > Escolástica >> > > de Bettencourt. >> > > >> > >> > Yes, the "Morgadinha" ; -) Fortunately I downloaded all the Rodrigues de >> > Gouveia >> > >> > >> > > I suspect you don't have the original marriage certificate >> > >> > >> > I have a photocopy of the original. (The priest had a magnificent >> > handwriting, clear, elegant, incisive). The addition of beatriz glz de >> leam >> > (no capital letters) >> > is his, no doubt. >> > >> > >> > > and that if you did, would you be able to scan it and send it to my >> > > personal account. >> > >> > >> > For the moment I am planning to buy a scanner. The old one is kaput. >> > >> > >> > > Otherwise, I will be ordering the certificate. >> > > I also have the Vaz geneology, where I got most of my information, and >> I >> > > share your amazement that they did not seem to be aware of the Leão >> > > connection. >> > >> > >> > It escaped them. I can't see another explanation. It has the clues to >> find >> > out who were Beatriz Gonçalves de Leam de Chamorro's parents. She must >> be >> > one of the persons from that era with the longest name. Trivial as it is >> > today for a Portuguese to have 4 names, it wasn't in those times. >> > It would have been signaled. >> > Also there is the fact that she's called "de Chamorra". Unusual among the >> > Chamorras who never used that "de" >> > >> > But what do we have here? First the son of Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia >> > and Beatriz Chamorra, is Rui Chamorro, Almost as a rule the sons used >> their >> > father's name. Not in this case. What can it mean? It means that the >> > Chamorro name was more important than the Rodrigues de Gouveia. So this >> > allows us to conjecture that their Chamorro was linked with the top >> > Chamorros, descendants of the "Porteiro dos cativos", Pedro Chamorro, >> FCR. >> > Otherwise he would have used, as Gapsar did, the Rodrigues de Gouveia >> name. >> > Though there are no strict rules. And everything is possible as regards >> use >> > of names of the parents. >> > >> > >> > > You don't have Brites parents? >> > >> > >> > No. In the Carvalho Pais title our Brites Chamorra is presented as dau. >> of >> > Brites Chamorra married to a Carvalho Pais. It was the respectable >> Meneses >> > Vaz who wrote that title. However due to new data it's, to say the least, >> > questionable. >> > >> > But now with the Gonçalves de Leam clue we're forced to admit that she >> was >> > the dau, of a Gonçalves de Leam and a Chamorra. Remember in that time the >> > first name was the father's, the second the mother's name. >> > >> > >> > All we can say it that we added more Italian blood, the Leam (Leone?) to >> > our >> > tree. >> > >> > >> > > They were not available on the Vaz list. So, Vaz may not have known. >> > >> > >> > That's what surprises me. If he knew he did not show it. If he did not >> show >> > it but he knew it, well....But, genealogically speaking, he had too. It's >> > too fundamental a clue to be discarded. Anyway for Vaz a bastard line was >> > not a matter of shame, or something to hide (like HHN did sometimes). >> > Furthermore the Leam were "good" families, top bourgeoisie. perhaps even >> > descendants of Italian nobility, They were linked to the Spínolas. And >> the >> > Spínolas were one of the top Madeiran families. So this Leam link that >> > Beatriz undoubtedly carries "had" perforce to be explored. >> > >> > >> > > Bastard line? >> > > >> > >> > I don't think so.Furthermore with such a big name. >> > >> > >> > > The Alentejo cold does help your research! >> > > >> > > >> > Thanks Siberian cold on the way, "Vaga de frio monumental" Scandianavian >> > countries 41 degrees below zero (Fahrenheit scale). Temperatures below >> zero >> > in Portugal interior. handle me that rum, or vodka or whatever, please! >> > >> > >> > Miguel >> > >> > José >> > > >> > > -----Original Message----- >> > > From: [email protected] [mailto: >> > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro >> > Henriques >> > > Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2010 7:46 PM >> > > To: [email protected] >> > > Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia >> > > >> > > I found an old marriage register to which I did not concede much >> > > importance >> > > at the time. Now I see that it connects with a discussion about F.co >> > > Rodrigues de Gouveia we had here a year ago or so. Was he Licenciado or >> > > not? >> > > Was it a forgery? (his marriage document, as Paulo contended). Well, it >> > > seems that it was not. Let's see why. >> > > >> > > Anyway here we go. It's the marriage certificate of Isabel Leal m. Rui >> > > Chamorro, (1577, Sé do Funchal). >> > > >> > > She is the dau, of F.co da Costa de Siqueira and Leonor Rodrigues. (The >> > > Costa de Siqueira were noble, and are relatively well known). Him, Rui >> > > Chamorro, son of Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia (already >> dead) >> > > and his wife - and here is the surprise ..*.Beatriz Gonçalves de Leam >> de >> > > Chamorra !!* >> > > >> > > The document is original, The words "Gonçalves de Leam de" were added >> > with >> > > the very same writing of the priest who wrote the document (I have no >> > doubt >> > > about it. It was the priest. It's not an added and clever forgery, i >> bet >> > > strongly on that). Anyway It's a name extraodinarily long for that >> time. >> > > And >> > > containing explosive and brand new information. >> > > >> > > The Leão were from Italian origin, merchants. "Mercadores do trauto do >> > > assucar" (They came very early to Madeira, around 1472). They >> established >> > > themselves in Funchal.They were later and, no surprisingly, connected >> by >> > > marriage with the Spínolas.. They were upper bourgeoisie, at least. >> > > A Licenciado Diogo de Leão existed around that time. Probably a >> relative? >> > > >> > > In this document we have evidence that a Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues >> > de >> > > Gouveia truly existed. So in face of this document we are forced to say >> > he >> > > is documented and his full name was truly Francisco Rodrigues de >> Gouveia. >> > > Now he was supposed to be married to a just Brites Chamorra by several >> > > leading genealogists (Meneses Vaz included) >> > > >> > > Here from ARM database: Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia, Dr. >> > > Beatriz >> > > Chamorra Sé 1539 46 7 v.º >> > > >> > > But how come no one mentioned the "Gonçalves de Leam" of Beatriz >> > Chamorra? >> > > It was mandatory! Because it's an extremely interesting and central >> > detail >> > > which could lead to a connection, still unknown , between the Leão and >> > the >> > > Chamorros. What is said here is that it (that connection) blatantly >> > > existed. >> > > This Chamorra had Leam (Leão) blood. That no genealogist said it >> before. >> > > And >> > > that, just amazes me. >> > > >> > > >> > > The witness were João Rodrigues Escórcio - well known character. Joam >> > > Carvalho. Pedro Feo (Feio) and Francisco Jorge. All the witness as is >> > > fitting for the marriage of a Licenciado could read and write. >> > > >> > > I think Joam Carvalho was a judge. >> > > >> > > Anyway all this is really groovy and juicy. >> > > >> > > >> > > I leave here this info.because I think very strange that none of the >> > > leading >> > > genealogists (of reference, I know and studied almost them all but I >> > won't >> > > quote all their names) referred it. Especially those who wrote the >> > > Rodrigues de Gouveia title as well as the Lopes Esteves title (patent >> in >> > > the >> > > old and regreted NESOS). Had they seen it they were "condemned" to >> refer >> > > this Beatriz Gonçalves de Leam de Chamorra. They would have been as >> > > stupefied as I am. Did this document eluded them? I don't believe that >> > > having seen it they would discard it,. They were too knowledgeable to >> do >> > > it. >> > > Besides it has a promising discovery adventure appended to it. So I >> have >> > to >> > > concede that this document that I got pretty easily escaped their >> > > attention, >> > > or was stuck in an old pile behind a desk or something at their time. >> > > >> > > >> > > Of course this interests half Madeira, since half Madeira descends from >> > the >> > > Rodrigues de Gouveia. >> > > >> > > >> > > Cheers, >> > > >> > > >> > > Miguel >> > > >> > > ------------------------------- >> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the >> > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > >> > > >> > > ------------------------------- >> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the >> > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > >> > >> > ------------------------------- >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > >> > >> > ------------------------------- >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

You are both talking about different marriage records. The one that is "cousa inautêntica" is the marriage record of Licº Francisco Roiz de Gouveia with Beatriz Chamorra, which is an horrendous forgery, and is well noted as such at the beginning of the parish book. Paulo Miguel de Castro Henriques <[email protected]> wrote in Thu, 7 Jan 2010 18:48:04 +0000: > On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 5:21 PM, Fernandes, Jose < > [email protected]> wrote: > >> Miguel, >> I am just reading the Rodrigues de Gouveia genealogy, and on note #8 >> Bernado Gomes Ferreira (?) writes that there is acertificate of marriage >> for out two, but " existe-mas é como não existisse. > > > Ah good find José. I missed it. > > Obscure words, he said. Anyway he ought to refer to it with more precision, > IMO. And I think that the document is valid, and was all written by the hand > of Vicente Afonso, cura. > > Now there is no doubt for me that it was written by the Cura Vicente Afonso. > And signed, among others by João Rodrigues Escórcio, who later acted as > testamenteiro of the will of F.co Rodrigues de Gouveia, thus confirming > their relationship. > > However I don't know if Menses Vaz is referring the same document. > > > >> ..E uma cousa inautêntica" and that's why in Bernardo's opinion Vaz did not >> pay attention to it. What do you think of that? >> > > I think that Menses Vaz had a misfired shot. The document seems to me "cousa > autêntica". It would perhaps alter Menses Vaz genealogy of the Carvalho Pais > (as far as beatriz Chamorra is regarded), so the horrified magister send > the document to hell, without having the trouble to explain why. > > > > >> I guess I am having problems with an Italian connection!!! >> > > mmmm. Italian connections are always problematic ; -))) > > > Miguel > > > >> José >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [email protected] [mailto: >> [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro Henriques >> Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 11:43 AM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia >> >> On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 4:12 PM, Fernandes, Jose < >> [email protected]> wrote: >> >> > Miguel, >> > Interesting that the family, as you know, uses Pacheco >> >> >> Yes, for two generations they use Gouveia Pacheco. And with that name they >> administer the "Capela" from the morgadio established by Rodrigo Anes and >> Isabel Pires.. >> >> >> >> > and only much later goes back to the Rodrigues de Gouveia. That is >> somewhat >> > unusual, unless the other names were more powerful. >> > >> >> >> >> > To add to Beatriz's parents' confusion, please remember that later a >> Brites >> > Chamorra wins that famous name trial re: Cunha because her ancestors were >> Da >> > Cunha from the Carvalho Pais. So at some time we have to deal with that >> > side. >> > >> >> That famous trial is a powerful piece. As you know they won against D. >> Pedro >> Álvares da Cunha, a grandee of the the Kingdom, Trinchante-Mor da Casa >> Real, >> (he was also Governor of Madeira), from the archi-noble Cunhas da Tábua. So >> they probably had access to some documentation that meanwhile was lost. >> Anyway, nice to watch, the obscure Rodrigues de Gouveia defeating that Big >> Fish. >> >> >> > Miguel, I real believe that Vaz was not aware of the marriage in Sé. In >> the >> > genealogy, he says that Francisco married around 1540 or later. So he >> wasn't >> > aware of this certificate or if he was he dismissed it. >> > >> > I was surprised to see on RTPi that Setubal today was going colder than >> the >> > interior! >> > >> >> Well, I didn't know about that. For the moment it is a sunny sunny day, >> cold >> as ice. >> >> >> I am on my 3d cup of steaming tea. One has to drink it fast otherwise it >> gets cold in no time at all. >> >> > >> > José >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: [email protected] [mailto: >> > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro >> Henriques >> > Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 10:56 AM >> > To: [email protected] >> > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia >> > >> > José, >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Miguel, >> > > Congratulations on this find! I believe you and I (among others) share >> > this >> > > family. >> > >> > >> > Thanks. I'm just amazed how this escaped the genealogists. Were they >> > kindly >> > leaving something for us to discover? ; -) >> > >> > Yes, I have at least two or three lines to our Gaspar Rodrigues. >> > >> > Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia is my great (12) grandfather and is though >> > > his son Gaspar that the line continues until our marriage with >> > Escolástica >> > > de Bettencourt. >> > > >> > >> > Yes, the "Morgadinha" ; -) Fortunately I downloaded all the Rodrigues de >> > Gouveia >> > >> > >> > > I suspect you don't have the original marriage certificate >> > >> > >> > I have a photocopy of the original. (The priest had a magnificent >> > handwriting, clear, elegant, incisive). The addition of beatriz glz de >> leam >> > (no capital letters) >> > is his, no doubt. >> > >> > >> > > and that if you did, would you be able to scan it and send it to my >> > > personal account. >> > >> > >> > For the moment I am planning to buy a scanner. The old one is kaput. >> > >> > >> > > Otherwise, I will be ordering the certificate. >> > > I also have the Vaz geneology, where I got most of my information, and >> I >> > > share your amazement that they did not seem to be aware of the Leão >> > > connection. >> > >> > >> > It escaped them. I can't see another explanation. It has the clues to >> find >> > out who were Beatriz Gonçalves de Leam de Chamorro's parents. She must >> be >> > one of the persons from that era with the longest name. Trivial as it is >> > today for a Portuguese to have 4 names, it wasn't in those times. >> > It would have been signaled. >> > Also there is the fact that she's called "de Chamorra". Unusual among the >> > Chamorras who never used that "de" >> > >> > But what do we have here? First the son of Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia >> > and Beatriz Chamorra, is Rui Chamorro, Almost as a rule the sons used >> their >> > father's name. Not in this case. What can it mean? It means that the >> > Chamorro name was more important than the Rodrigues de Gouveia. So this >> > allows us to conjecture that their Chamorro was linked with the top >> > Chamorros, descendants of the "Porteiro dos cativos", Pedro Chamorro, >> FCR. >> > Otherwise he would have used, as Gapsar did, the Rodrigues de Gouveia >> name. >> > Though there are no strict rules. And everything is possible as regards >> use >> > of names of the parents. >> > >> > >> > > You don't have Brites parents? >> > >> > >> > No. In the Carvalho Pais title our Brites Chamorra is presented as dau. >> of >> > Brites Chamorra married to a Carvalho Pais. It was the respectable >> Meneses >> > Vaz who wrote that title. However due to new data it's, to say the least, >> > questionable. >> > >> > But now with the Gonçalves de Leam clue we're forced to admit that she >> was >> > the dau, of a Gonçalves de Leam and a Chamorra. Remember in that time the >> > first name was the father's, the second the mother's name. >> > >> > >> > All we can say it that we added more Italian blood, the Leam (Leone?) to >> > our >> > tree. >> > >> > >> > > They were not available on the Vaz list. So, Vaz may not have known. >> > >> > >> > That's what surprises me. If he knew he did not show it. If he did not >> show >> > it but he knew it, well....But, genealogically speaking, he had too. It's >> > too fundamental a clue to be discarded. Anyway for Vaz a bastard line was >> > not a matter of shame, or something to hide (like HHN did sometimes). >> > Furthermore the Leam were "good" families, top bourgeoisie. perhaps even >> > descendants of Italian nobility, They were linked to the Spínolas. And >> the >> > Spínolas were one of the top Madeiran families. So this Leam link that >> > Beatriz undoubtedly carries "had" perforce to be explored. >> > >> > >> > > Bastard line? >> > > >> > >> > I don't think so.Furthermore with such a big name. >> > >> > >> > > The Alentejo cold does help your research! >> > > >> > > >> > Thanks Siberian cold on the way, "Vaga de frio monumental" Scandianavian >> > countries 41 degrees below zero (Fahrenheit scale). Temperatures below >> zero >> > in Portugal interior. handle me that rum, or vodka or whatever, please! >> > >> > >> > Miguel >> > >> > José >> > > >> > > -----Original Message----- >> > > From: [email protected] [mailto: >> > > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro >> > Henriques >> > > Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2010 7:46 PM >> > > To: [email protected] >> > > Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia >> > > >> > > I found an old marriage register to which I did not concede much >> > > importance >> > > at the time. Now I see that it connects with a discussion about F.co >> > > Rodrigues de Gouveia we had here a year ago or so. Was he Licenciado or >> > > not? >> > > Was it a forgery? (his marriage document, as Paulo contended). Well, it >> > > seems that it was not. Let's see why. >> > > >> > > Anyway here we go. It's the marriage certificate of Isabel Leal m. Rui >> > > Chamorro, (1577, Sé do Funchal). >> > > >> > > She is the dau, of F.co da Costa de Siqueira and Leonor Rodrigues. (The >> > > Costa de Siqueira were noble, and are relatively well known). Him, Rui >> > > Chamorro, son of Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia (already >> dead) >> > > and his wife - and here is the surprise ..*.Beatriz Gonçalves de Leam >> de >> > > Chamorra !!* >> > > >> > > The document is original, The words "Gonçalves de Leam de" were added >> > with >> > > the very same writing of the priest who wrote the document (I have no >> > doubt >> > > about it. It was the priest. It's not an added and clever forgery, i >> bet >> > > strongly on that). Anyway It's a name extraodinarily long for that >> time. >> > > And >> > > containing explosive and brand new information. >> > > >> > > The Leão were from Italian origin, merchants. "Mercadores do trauto do >> > > assucar" (They came very early to Madeira, around 1472). They >> established >> > > themselves in Funchal.They were later and, no surprisingly, connected >> by >> > > marriage with the Spínolas.. They were upper bourgeoisie, at least. >> > > A Licenciado Diogo de Leão existed around that time. Probably a >> relative? >> > > >> > > In this document we have evidence that a Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues >> > de >> > > Gouveia truly existed. So in face of this document we are forced to say >> > he >> > > is documented and his full name was truly Francisco Rodrigues de >> Gouveia. >> > > Now he was supposed to be married to a just Brites Chamorra by several >> > > leading genealogists (Meneses Vaz included) >> > > >> > > Here from ARM database: Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia, Dr. >> > > Beatriz >> > > Chamorra Sé 1539 46 7 v.º >> > > >> > > But how come no one mentioned the "Gonçalves de Leam" of Beatriz >> > Chamorra? >> > > It was mandatory! Because it's an extremely interesting and central >> > detail >> > > which could lead to a connection, still unknown , between the Leão and >> > the >> > > Chamorros. What is said here is that it (that connection) blatantly >> > > existed. >> > > This Chamorra had Leam (Leão) blood. That no genealogist said it >> before. >> > > And >> > > that, just amazes me. >> > > >> > > >> > > The witness were João Rodrigues Escórcio - well known character. Joam >> > > Carvalho. Pedro Feo (Feio) and Francisco Jorge. All the witness as is >> > > fitting for the marriage of a Licenciado could read and write. >> > > >> > > I think Joam Carvalho was a judge. >> > > >> > > Anyway all this is really groovy and juicy. >> > > >> > > >> > > I leave here this info.because I think very strange that none of the >> > > leading >> > > genealogists (of reference, I know and studied almost them all but I >> > won't >> > > quote all their names) referred it. Especially those who wrote the >> > > Rodrigues de Gouveia title as well as the Lopes Esteves title (patent >> in >> > > the >> > > old and regreted NESOS). Had they seen it they were "condemned" to >> refer >> > > this Beatriz Gonçalves de Leam de Chamorra. They would have been as >> > > stupefied as I am. Did this document eluded them? I don't believe that >> > > having seen it they would discard it,. They were too knowledgeable to >> do >> > > it. >> > > Besides it has a promising discovery adventure appended to it. So I >> have >> > to >> > > concede that this document that I got pretty easily escaped their >> > > attention, >> > > or was stuck in an old pile behind a desk or something at their time. >> > > >> > > >> > > Of course this interests half Madeira, since half Madeira descends from >> > the >> > > Rodrigues de Gouveia. >> > > >> > > >> > > Cheers, >> > > >> > > >> > > Miguel >> > > >> > > ------------------------------- >> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the >> > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > >> > > >> > > ------------------------------- >> > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the >> > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > >> > >> > ------------------------------- >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > >> > >> > ------------------------------- >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Hi Pat, Beatriz Chamorro m. Jº Ferreira, daughter of Beatriz Chamorro de Castro and Manuel Martins Pereira. Beatriz Chamorro m. to Manuel Gomes, daughter of António Vaz Rebelo (brother of Beatriz Chamorra de Castro mentioned above) and Maria da Ascenção (from the noted Bijaos). Beatriz Chamorra de Castro daughter of António Vaz Rebelo and Ana de Castro, daughter of yet another Beatriz Chamorra Ferreira and Francisco Lopes Esteves. Beatriz Chamorra Ferreira daughter of Gaspar Rodrigues de Gouveia (grandson of Rº Anes and Isabel Pires) and Ana de Castro (said to be daughter of Dr. Diogo de Castro and Margarida Ferreira - that's where the Pacheco comes from). Lot's of problems in this line, as most marriage records don't exist and some of the ones that exist have been falsified or entirely forged. :S Cheers, Paulo Pat Corbera <[email protected]> wrote in Thu, 7 Jan 2010 18:11:13 +0000 (UTC): > Miguel and Jose, > > Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia, Dr. Beatriz Chamorra Sé 1539 46 7 v.º > João Ferreira Beatriz Chamorra Santo António 1705 211 53 v.º > Manuel Gomes Beatriz Chamorra São Martinho 1697 241 43 > > Who are the other two Beatriz Chamorra ladies? > > Pat > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jose Fernandes" <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2010 9:21:38 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia > > Miguel, > I am just reading the Rodrigues de Gouveia genealogy, and on note #8 > Bernado Gomes Ferreira (?) writes that there is acertificate of > marriage for out two, but " existe-mas é como não existisse...E uma > cousa inautêntica" and that's why in Bernardo's opinion Vaz did not > pay attention to it. What do you think of that? > I guess I am having problems with an Italian connection!!! > José > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de > Castro Henriques > Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 11:43 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia > > On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 4:12 PM, Fernandes, Jose < > [email protected]> wrote: > >> Miguel, >> Interesting that the family, as you know, uses Pacheco > > > Yes, for two generations they use Gouveia Pacheco. And with that name they > administer the "Capela" from the morgadio established by Rodrigo Anes and > Isabel Pires.. > > > >> and only much later goes back to the Rodrigues de Gouveia. That is somewhat >> unusual, unless the other names were more powerful. >> > > > >> To add to Beatriz's parents' confusion, please remember that later a Brites >> Chamorra wins that famous name trial re: Cunha because her ancestors were Da >> Cunha from the Carvalho Pais. So at some time we have to deal with that >> side. >> > > That famous trial is a powerful piece. As you know they won against D. Pedro > Álvares da Cunha, a grandee of the the Kingdom, Trinchante-Mor da Casa Real, > (he was also Governor of Madeira), from the archi-noble Cunhas da Tábua. So > they probably had access to some documentation that meanwhile was lost. > Anyway, nice to watch, the obscure Rodrigues de Gouveia defeating that Big > Fish. > > >> Miguel, I real believe that Vaz was not aware of the marriage in Sé. In the >> genealogy, he says that Francisco married around 1540 or later. So he wasn't >> aware of this certificate or if he was he dismissed it. >> >> I was surprised to see on RTPi that Setubal today was going colder than the >> interior! >> > > Well, I didn't know about that. For the moment it is a sunny sunny day, cold > as ice. > > > I am on my 3d cup of steaming tea. One has to drink it fast otherwise it > gets cold in no time at all. > >> >> José >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [email protected] [mailto: >> [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro Henriques >> Sent: Thursday, January 07, 2010 10:56 AM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia >> >> José, >> >> >> >> >> Miguel, >> > Congratulations on this find! I believe you and I (among others) share >> this >> > family. >> >> >> Thanks. I'm just amazed how this escaped the genealogists. Were they >> kindly >> leaving something for us to discover? ; -) >> >> Yes, I have at least two or three lines to our Gaspar Rodrigues. >> >> Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia is my great (12) grandfather and is though >> > his son Gaspar that the line continues until our marriage with >> Escolástica >> > de Bettencourt. >> > >> >> Yes, the "Morgadinha" ; -) Fortunately I downloaded all the Rodrigues de >> Gouveia >> >> >> > I suspect you don't have the original marriage certificate >> >> >> I have a photocopy of the original. (The priest had a magnificent >> handwriting, clear, elegant, incisive). The addition of beatriz glz de leam >> (no capital letters) >> is his, no doubt. >> >> >> > and that if you did, would you be able to scan it and send it to my >> > personal account. >> >> >> For the moment I am planning to buy a scanner. The old one is kaput. >> >> >> > Otherwise, I will be ordering the certificate. >> > I also have the Vaz geneology, where I got most of my information, and I >> > share your amazement that they did not seem to be aware of the Leão >> > connection. >> >> >> It escaped them. I can't see another explanation. It has the clues to find >> out who were Beatriz Gonçalves de Leam de Chamorro's parents. She must be >> one of the persons from that era with the longest name. Trivial as it is >> today for a Portuguese to have 4 names, it wasn't in those times. >> It would have been signaled. >> Also there is the fact that she's called "de Chamorra". Unusual among the >> Chamorras who never used that "de" >> >> But what do we have here? First the son of Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia >> and Beatriz Chamorra, is Rui Chamorro, Almost as a rule the sons used their >> father's name. Not in this case. What can it mean? It means that the >> Chamorro name was more important than the Rodrigues de Gouveia. So this >> allows us to conjecture that their Chamorro was linked with the top >> Chamorros, descendants of the "Porteiro dos cativos", Pedro Chamorro, FCR. >> Otherwise he would have used, as Gapsar did, the Rodrigues de Gouveia name. >> Though there are no strict rules. And everything is possible as regards use >> of names of the parents. >> >> >> > You don't have Brites parents? >> >> >> No. In the Carvalho Pais title our Brites Chamorra is presented as dau. of >> Brites Chamorra married to a Carvalho Pais. It was the respectable Meneses >> Vaz who wrote that title. However due to new data it's, to say the least, >> questionable. >> >> But now with the Gonçalves de Leam clue we're forced to admit that she was >> the dau, of a Gonçalves de Leam and a Chamorra. Remember in that time the >> first name was the father's, the second the mother's name. >> >> >> All we can say it that we added more Italian blood, the Leam (Leone?) to >> our >> tree. >> >> >> > They were not available on the Vaz list. So, Vaz may not have known. >> >> >> That's what surprises me. If he knew he did not show it. If he did not show >> it but he knew it, well....But, genealogically speaking, he had too. It's >> too fundamental a clue to be discarded. Anyway for Vaz a bastard line was >> not a matter of shame, or something to hide (like HHN did sometimes). >> Furthermore the Leam were "good" families, top bourgeoisie. perhaps even >> descendants of Italian nobility, They were linked to the Spínolas. And the >> Spínolas were one of the top Madeiran families. So this Leam link that >> Beatriz undoubtedly carries "had" perforce to be explored. >> >> >> > Bastard line? >> > >> >> I don't think so.Furthermore with such a big name. >> >> >> > The Alentejo cold does help your research! >> > >> > >> Thanks Siberian cold on the way, "Vaga de frio monumental" Scandianavian >> countries 41 degrees below zero (Fahrenheit scale). Temperatures below zero >> in Portugal interior. handle me that rum, or vodka or whatever, please! >> >> >> Miguel >> >> José >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: [email protected] [mailto: >> > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro >> Henriques >> > Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2010 7:46 PM >> > To: [email protected] >> > Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia >> > >> > I found an old marriage register to which I did not concede much >> > importance >> > at the time. Now I see that it connects with a discussion about F.co >> > Rodrigues de Gouveia we had here a year ago or so. Was he Licenciado or >> > not? >> > Was it a forgery? (his marriage document, as Paulo contended). Well, it >> > seems that it was not. Let's see why. >> > >> > Anyway here we go. It's the marriage certificate of Isabel Leal m. Rui >> > Chamorro, (1577, Sé do Funchal). >> > >> > She is the dau, of F.co da Costa de Siqueira and Leonor Rodrigues. (The >> > Costa de Siqueira were noble, and are relatively well known). Him, Rui >> > Chamorro, son of Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia (already dead) >> > and his wife - and here is the surprise ..*.Beatriz Gonçalves de Leam de >> > Chamorra !!* >> > >> > The document is original, The words "Gonçalves de Leam de" were added >> with >> > the very same writing of the priest who wrote the document (I have no >> doubt >> > about it. It was the priest. It's not an added and clever forgery, i bet >> > strongly on that). Anyway It's a name extraodinarily long for that time. >> > And >> > containing explosive and brand new information. >> > >> > The Leão were from Italian origin, merchants. "Mercadores do trauto do >> > assucar" (They came very early to Madeira, around 1472). They established >> > themselves in Funchal.They were later and, no surprisingly, connected by >> > marriage with the Spínolas.. They were upper bourgeoisie, at least. >> > A Licenciado Diogo de Leão existed around that time. Probably a relative? >> > >> > In this document we have evidence that a Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues >> de >> > Gouveia truly existed. So in face of this document we are forced to say >> he >> > is documented and his full name was truly Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia. >> > Now he was supposed to be married to a just Brites Chamorra by several >> > leading genealogists (Meneses Vaz included) >> > >> > Here from ARM database: Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia, Dr. >> > Beatriz >> > Chamorra Sé 1539 46 7 v.º >> > >> > But how come no one mentioned the "Gonçalves de Leam" of Beatriz >> Chamorra? >> > It was mandatory! Because it's an extremely interesting and central >> detail >> > which could lead to a connection, still unknown , between the Leão and >> the >> > Chamorros. What is said here is that it (that connection) blatantly >> > existed. >> > This Chamorra had Leam (Leão) blood. That no genealogist said it before. >> > And >> > that, just amazes me. >> > >> > >> > The witness were João Rodrigues Escórcio - well known character. Joam >> > Carvalho. Pedro Feo (Feio) and Francisco Jorge. All the witness as is >> > fitting for the marriage of a Licenciado could read and write. >> > >> > I think Joam Carvalho was a judge. >> > >> > Anyway all this is really groovy and juicy. >> > >> > >> > I leave here this info.because I think very strange that none of the >> > leading >> > genealogists (of reference, I know and studied almost them all but I >> won't >> > quote all their names) referred it. Especially those who wrote the >> > Rodrigues de Gouveia title as well as the Lopes Esteves title (patent in >> > the >> > old and regreted NESOS). Had they seen it they were "condemned" to refer >> > this Beatriz Gonçalves de Leam de Chamorra. They would have been as >> > stupefied as I am. Did this document eluded them? I don't believe that >> > having seen it they would discard it,. They were too knowledgeable to do >> > it. >> > Besides it has a promising discovery adventure appended to it. So I have >> to >> > concede that this document that I got pretty easily escaped their >> > attention, >> > or was stuck in an old pile behind a desk or something at their time. >> > >> > >> > Of course this interests half Madeira, since half Madeira descends from >> the Rodrigues de Gouveia. >> > >> > >> > Cheers, >> > >> > >> > Miguel > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Miguel, There is an easy explanation for the Cónego Menezes Vaz "missing" that, and you finding it very reliable. You are looking at a black and white copy, while he (and me as well) looked at the original (or the digitalized version, which is almost the same, I've seen both). Anyone looking at the original would immediately perceive the colour difference, and thus the forgery, as well as the lack of the priest signature validating the correction. That's why he didn't made any case of it. Paulo Miguel de Castro Henriques <[email protected]> wrote in Thu, 7 Jan 2010 15:56:23 +0000: > José, > > > > > Miguel, >> Congratulations on this find! I believe you and I (among others) share this >> family. > > > Thanks. I'm just amazed how this escaped the genealogists. Were they kindly > leaving something for us to discover? ; -) > > Yes, I have at least two or three lines to our Gaspar Rodrigues. > > Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia is my great (12) grandfather and is though >> his son Gaspar that the line continues until our marriage with Escolástica >> de Bettencourt. >> > > Yes, the "Morgadinha" ; -) Fortunately I downloaded all the Rodrigues de > Gouveia > > >> I suspect you don't have the original marriage certificate > > > I have a photocopy of the original. (The priest had a magnificent > handwriting, clear, elegant, incisive). The addition of beatriz glz de leam > (no capital letters) > is his, no doubt. > > >> and that if you did, would you be able to scan it and send it to my >> personal account. > > > For the moment I am planning to buy a scanner. The old one is kaput. > > >> Otherwise, I will be ordering the certificate. >> I also have the Vaz geneology, where I got most of my information, and I >> share your amazement that they did not seem to be aware of the Leão >> connection. > > > It escaped them. I can't see another explanation. It has the clues to find > out who were Beatriz Gonçalves de Leam de Chamorro's parents. She must be > one of the persons from that era with the longest name. Trivial as it is > today for a Portuguese to have 4 names, it wasn't in those times. > It would have been signaled. > Also there is the fact that she's called "de Chamorra". Unusual among the > Chamorras who never used that "de" > > But what do we have here? First the son of Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia > and Beatriz Chamorra, is Rui Chamorro, Almost as a rule the sons used their > father's name. Not in this case. What can it mean? It means that the > Chamorro name was more important than the Rodrigues de Gouveia. So this > allows us to conjecture that their Chamorro was linked with the top > Chamorros, descendants of the "Porteiro dos cativos", Pedro Chamorro, FCR. > Otherwise he would have used, as Gapsar did, the Rodrigues de Gouveia name. > Though there are no strict rules. And everything is possible as regards use > of names of the parents. > > >> You don't have Brites parents? > > > No. In the Carvalho Pais title our Brites Chamorra is presented as dau. of > Brites Chamorra married to a Carvalho Pais. It was the respectable Meneses > Vaz who wrote that title. However due to new data it's, to say the least, > questionable. > > But now with the Gonçalves de Leam clue we're forced to admit that she was > the dau, of a Gonçalves de Leam and a Chamorra. Remember in that time the > first name was the father's, the second the mother's name. > > > All we can say it that we added more Italian blood, the Leam (Leone?) to our > tree. > > >> They were not available on the Vaz list. So, Vaz may not have known. > > > That's what surprises me. If he knew he did not show it. If he did not show > it but he knew it, well....But, genealogically speaking, he had too. It's > too fundamental a clue to be discarded. Anyway for Vaz a bastard line was > not a matter of shame, or something to hide (like HHN did sometimes). > Furthermore the Leam were "good" families, top bourgeoisie. perhaps even > descendants of Italian nobility, They were linked to the Spínolas. And the > Spínolas were one of the top Madeiran families. So this Leam link that > Beatriz undoubtedly carries "had" perforce to be explored. > > >> Bastard line? >> > > I don't think so.Furthermore with such a big name. > > >> The Alentejo cold does help your research! >> >> > Thanks Siberian cold on the way, "Vaga de frio monumental" Scandianavian > countries 41 degrees below zero (Fahrenheit scale). Temperatures below zero > in Portugal interior. handle me that rum, or vodka or whatever, please! > > > Miguel > > José >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [email protected] [mailto: >> [email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de Castro Henriques >> Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2010 7:46 PM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia >> >> I found an old marriage register to which I did not concede much >> importance >> at the time. Now I see that it connects with a discussion about F.co >> Rodrigues de Gouveia we had here a year ago or so. Was he Licenciado or >> not? >> Was it a forgery? (his marriage document, as Paulo contended). Well, it >> seems that it was not. Let's see why. >> >> Anyway here we go. It's the marriage certificate of Isabel Leal m. Rui >> Chamorro, (1577, Sé do Funchal). >> >> She is the dau, of F.co da Costa de Siqueira and Leonor Rodrigues. (The >> Costa de Siqueira were noble, and are relatively well known). Him, Rui >> Chamorro, son of Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia (already dead) >> and his wife - and here is the surprise ..*.Beatriz Gonçalves de Leam de >> Chamorra !!* >> >> The document is original, The words "Gonçalves de Leam de" were added with >> the very same writing of the priest who wrote the document (I have no doubt >> about it. It was the priest. It's not an added and clever forgery, i bet >> strongly on that). Anyway It's a name extraodinarily long for that time. >> And >> containing explosive and brand new information. >> >> The Leão were from Italian origin, merchants. "Mercadores do trauto do >> assucar" (They came very early to Madeira, around 1472). They established >> themselves in Funchal.They were later and, no surprisingly, connected by >> marriage with the Spínolas.. They were upper bourgeoisie, at least. >> A Licenciado Diogo de Leão existed around that time. Probably a relative? >> >> In this document we have evidence that a Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de >> Gouveia truly existed. So in face of this document we are forced to say he >> is documented and his full name was truly Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia. >> Now he was supposed to be married to a just Brites Chamorra by several >> leading genealogists (Meneses Vaz included) >> >> Here from ARM database: Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia, Dr. >> Beatriz >> Chamorra Sé 1539 46 7 v.º >> >> But how come no one mentioned the "Gonçalves de Leam" of Beatriz Chamorra? >> It was mandatory! Because it's an extremely interesting and central detail >> which could lead to a connection, still unknown , between the Leão and the >> Chamorros. What is said here is that it (that connection) blatantly >> existed. >> This Chamorra had Leam (Leão) blood. That no genealogist said it before. >> And >> that, just amazes me. >> >> >> The witness were João Rodrigues Escórcio - well known character. Joam >> Carvalho. Pedro Feo (Feio) and Francisco Jorge. All the witness as is >> fitting for the marriage of a Licenciado could read and write. >> >> I think Joam Carvalho was a judge. >> >> Anyway all this is really groovy and juicy. >> >> >> I leave here this info.because I think very strange that none of the >> leading >> genealogists (of reference, I know and studied almost them all but I won't >> quote all their names) referred it. Especially those who wrote the >> Rodrigues de Gouveia title as well as the Lopes Esteves title (patent in >> the >> old and regreted NESOS). Had they seen it they were "condemned" to refer >> this Beatriz Gonçalves de Leam de Chamorra. They would have been as >> stupefied as I am. Did this document eluded them? I don't believe that >> having seen it they would discard it,. They were too knowledgeable to do >> it. >> Besides it has a promising discovery adventure appended to it. So I have to >> concede that this document that I got pretty easily escaped their >> attention, >> or was stuck in an old pile behind a desk or something at their time. >> >> >> Of course this interests half Madeira, since half Madeira descends from the >> Rodrigues de Gouveia. >> >> >> Cheers, >> >> >> Miguel >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Paulo, To answer your question about how I am descended...as I said, I am not descended from Nuno Goncalves Cardoso who married Catarina de Roz but rather from Nuno's great grandparents...Catarina Pires de Quintal, daughter of Pedro Lopes de Quintal. It goes like this: Pedro Lopes de Quintal Caterina Pires & Fernao Nunes Cardoso Nuno Fernandes Cardoso & Leonor Dias Fernao Nunes Cardoso & Isabel Teixeira de Gois -also- Isabel Nunes & Lancarote Teixeira de Gois Antonio Teixeira Cardoso & Beatris de Almada - also -Maria de Gois & Joao Teixeira de Vasconcellos As you can imagine it gets more convoluted as I go on as I now descend from multiple children...but if you want further details...just ask. Good to hear from you! Cece -----Original Message----- From: Cece Camara [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 9:18 PM To: 'Cece-HQ' Subject: FW: [PT-MADEIRA] Azevedos Cardosos -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Paulo Santos Perneta Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2010 9:49 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Azevedos Cardosos Hello Cece, Hope you have had a merry Xmas and an happy new year. :) Catarina de Raz, I believe, rather than Roz, at least it's how it's written most of the time in their signatures: His brother Luís de Raz signed "Luis Daras", maybe the name is Aras or Arras, which brings potential confusion with the Arrais (not related, as far as I know). I seem to recall reading somewhere - Catarina Michaelis? - that it's from Flemish origin, but I don't know any basis for that. Anyway, how do you descend from that people? Cheers, Paulo Cece Camara <[email protected]> wrote in Tue, 26 Jan 2010 20:01:21 -0600: > Just working this genealogia as the first few names in it are direct for me > (namely Catarina Pires de Quintal, daughter of Pedro Lopes de Quintal). > Further on I came across Nuno Goncalves Cardoso who married (it says) > Catarina de Roz daughter of Nicolau de Roz and Isaura Perestrello. > I've never seen the name Roz before - and it does not appear to be an > abbreviation for Rodrigues as I initially thought. It also says they are > from the Titulo de Henriques Alemao- another one I am not familiar with. > Just thought I'd see if anyone can shed any more light on either of these > names. > Cece > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.435 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2667 - Release Date: 02/04/10 07:35:00

I'm sorry, José, I'm a bit lost here. Do you also descend from Escolástica de Bettencourt? (She had a capela, did you knew?) Do you descend from his daughter Antónia Maria de Bettencourt (married to António Rodrigues de Gouveia)? Paulo "Fernandes, Jose" <[email protected]> wrote in Thu, 7 Jan 2010 09:30:04 -0500: > Miguel, > Congratulations on this find! I believe you and I (among others) > share this family. Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia is my great (12) > grandfather and is though his son Gaspar that the line continues > until our marriage with Escolástica de Bettencourt. > I suspect you don't have the original marriage certificate and that > if you did, would you be able to scan it and send it to my personal > account. Otherwise, I will be ordering the certificate. > I also have the Vaz geneology, where I got most of my information, > and I share your amazement that they did not seem to be aware of the > Leão connection. You don't have Brites parents? They were not > available on the Vaz list. So, Vaz may not have known. Bastard line? > The Alentejo cold does help your research! > > José > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Miguel de > Castro Henriques > Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2010 7:46 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia > > I found an old marriage register to which I did not concede much importance > at the time. Now I see that it connects with a discussion about F.co > Rodrigues de Gouveia we had here a year ago or so. Was he Licenciado or not? > Was it a forgery? (his marriage document, as Paulo contended). Well, it > seems that it was not. Let's see why. > > Anyway here we go. It's the marriage certificate of Isabel Leal m. Rui > Chamorro, (1577, Sé do Funchal). > > She is the dau, of F.co da Costa de Siqueira and Leonor Rodrigues. (The > Costa de Siqueira were noble, and are relatively well known). Him, Rui > Chamorro, son of Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia (already dead) > and his wife - and here is the surprise ..*.Beatriz Gonçalves de Leam de > Chamorra !!* > > The document is original, The words "Gonçalves de Leam de" were added with > the very same writing of the priest who wrote the document (I have no doubt > about it. It was the priest. It's not an added and clever forgery, i bet > strongly on that). Anyway It's a name extraodinarily long for that time. And > containing explosive and brand new information. > > The Leão were from Italian origin, merchants. "Mercadores do trauto do > assucar" (They came very early to Madeira, around 1472). They established > themselves in Funchal.They were later and, no surprisingly, connected by > marriage with the Spínolas.. They were upper bourgeoisie, at least. > A Licenciado Diogo de Leão existed around that time. Probably a relative? > > In this document we have evidence that a Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de > Gouveia truly existed. So in face of this document we are forced to say he > is documented and his full name was truly Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia. > Now he was supposed to be married to a just Brites Chamorra by several > leading genealogists (Meneses Vaz included) > > Here from ARM database: Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia, Dr. Beatriz > Chamorra Sé 1539 46 7 v.º > > But how come no one mentioned the "Gonçalves de Leam" of Beatriz Chamorra? > It was mandatory! Because it's an extremely interesting and central detail > which could lead to a connection, still unknown , between the Leão and the > Chamorros. What is said here is that it (that connection) blatantly existed. > This Chamorra had Leam (Leão) blood. That no genealogist said it before. And > that, just amazes me. > > > The witness were João Rodrigues Escórcio - well known character. Joam > Carvalho. Pedro Feo (Feio) and Francisco Jorge. All the witness as is > fitting for the marriage of a Licenciado could read and write. > > I think Joam Carvalho was a judge. > > Anyway all this is really groovy and juicy. > > > I leave here this info.because I think very strange that none of the leading > genealogists (of reference, I know and studied almost them all but I won't > quote all their names) referred it. Especially those who wrote the > Rodrigues de Gouveia title as well as the Lopes Esteves title (patent in the > old and regreted NESOS). Had they seen it they were "condemned" to refer > this Beatriz Gonçalves de Leam de Chamorra. They would have been as > stupefied as I am. Did this document eluded them? I don't believe that > having seen it they would discard it,. They were too knowledgeable to do it. > Besides it has a promising discovery adventure appended to it. So I have to > concede that this document that I got pretty easily escaped their attention, > or was stuck in an old pile behind a desk or something at their time. > > > Of course this interests half Madeira, since half Madeira descends from the > Rodrigues de Gouveia. > > > Cheers, > > > Miguel > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

About 1570, in Calheta. That record has vanished, though it must have existed, since she is referred as widow when she marries Rui Chamorro. Paulo Miguel de Castro Henriques <[email protected]> wrote in Thu, 7 Jan 2010 02:04:59 +0000: > No idea about the time frame? > > > On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 1:59 AM, <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Agrela does not state the year. >> >> >> In a message dated 1/7/2010 2:58:39 A.M. W. Europe Standard Time, >> [email protected] writes: >> >> In which year? >> >> On Thu, Jan 7, 2010 at 1:45 AM, <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> > Hi Miguel >> > >> > I have the same isabel marrying Andre Araujo. Info by Agrella. Did she >> > married twice? Was the same person? >> > >> > Thanks >> > >> > Leandro >> > >> > >> > In a message dated 1/7/2010 1:46:43 A.M. W. Europe Standard Time, >> > [email protected] writes: >> > >> > I found an old marriage register to which I did not concede much >> > importance >> > at the time. Now I see that it connects with a discussion about F.co >> > Rodrigues de Gouveia we had here a year ago or so. Was he Licenciado or >> > not? >> > Was it a forgery? (his marriage document, as Paulo contended). Well, it >> > seems that it was not. Let's see why. >> > >> > Anyway here we go. It's the marriage certificate of Isabel Leal m. Rui >> > Chamorro, (1577, Sé do Funchal). >> > >> > She is the dau, of F.co da Costa de Siqueira and Leonor Rodrigues. (The >> > Costa de Siqueira were noble, and are relatively well known). Him, Rui >> > Chamorro, son of Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia (already >> dead) >> > and his wife - and here is the surprise ..*.Beatriz Gonçalves de Leam >> de >> > Chamorra !!* >> > >> > The document is original, The words "Gonçalves de Leam de" were added >> with >> > the very same writing of the priest who wrote the document (I have no >> > doubt >> > about it. It was the priest. It's not an added and clever forgery, i >> bet >> > strongly on that). Anyway It's a name extraodinarily long for that >> time. >> > And >> > containing explosive and brand new information. >> > >> > The Leão were from Italian origin, merchants. "Mercadores do trauto do >> > assucar" (They came very early to Madeira, around 1472). They >> established >> > themselves in Funchal.They were later and, no surprisingly, connected >> by >> > marriage with the Spínolas.. They were upper bourgeoisie, at least. >> > A Licenciado Diogo de Leão existed around that time. Probably a >> relative? >> > >> > In this document we have evidence that a Licenciado Francisco Rodrigues >> de >> > Gouveia truly existed. So in face of this document we are forced to say >> he >> > is documented and his full name was truly Francisco Rodrigues de >> Gouveia. >> > Now he was supposed to be married to a just Brites Chamorra by several >> > leading genealogists (Meneses Vaz included) >> > >> > Here from ARM database: Francisco Rodrigues de Gouveia, Dr. >> > Beatriz >> > Chamorra Sé 1539 46 7 v.º >> > >> > But how come no one mentioned the "Gonçalves de Leam" of Beatriz >> Chamorra? >> > It was mandatory! Because it's an extremely interesting and central >> > detail >> > which could lead to a connection, still unknown , between the Leão and >> the >> > Chamorros. What is said here is that it (that connection) blatantly >> > existed. >> > This Chamorra had Leam (Leão) blood. That no genealogist said it >> before. >> > And >> > that, just amazes me. >> > >> > >> > The witness were João Rodrigues Escórcio - well known character. Joam >> > Carvalho. Pedro Feo (Feio) and Francisco Jorge. All the witness as is >> > fitting for the marriage of a Licenciado could read and write. >> > >> > I think Joam Carvalho was a judge. >> > >> > Anyway all this is really groovy and juicy. >> > >> > >> > I leave here this info.because I think very strange that none of the >> > leading >> > genealogists (of reference, I know and studied almost them all but I >> won't >> > quote all their names) referred it. Especially those who wrote the >> > Rodrigues de Gouveia title as well as the Lopes Esteves title (patent >> in >> > the >> > old and regreted NESOS). Had they seen it they were "condemned" to >> refer >> > this Beatriz Gonçalves de Leam de Chamorra. They would have been as >> > stupefied as I am. Did this document eluded them? I don't believe that >> > having seen it they would discard it,. They were too knowledgeable to >> do >> > it. >> > Besides it has a promising discovery adventure appended to it. So I >> have >> > to >> > concede that this document that I got pretty easily escaped their >> > attention, >> > or was stuck in an old pile behind a desk or something at their time. >> > >> > >> > Of course this interests half Madeira, since half Madeira descends >> from >> > the >> > Rodrigues de Gouveia. >> > >> > >> > Cheers, >> > >> > >> > Miguel >> > >> > ------------------------------- >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the >> > quotes in the subject >> > and the body of the message >> > >> > ------------------------------- >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the >> > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject >> and the body of the message >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >