Manoel de Freitas Noronha, migrante para a ilha de Santa Catarina, por volta de 1749 teria alguma relação? Luís César Nunes Tubarão - SC BRAZIL Em seg., 19 de ago. de 2019 às 07:53, Marie Shantz <[email protected]> escreveu: > Anyone related to Antonio de Freitas Candelaria and Ana Teles from Fayal > (Faial) Madeira > > Marie > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Aug 19, 2019, at 12:10 AM, Cristina Mahon <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > Luis, > > > > Please add me as well - [email protected] Thanks! > > > > Cristina Mahon > > > > [email protected]otsweb.com wrote: > >> Send PRT-MADEIRA mailing list submissions to [email protected] > >> > >> To subscribe via email send a message with subject subscribe and body > >> subscribe to [email protected] > >> > >> To unsubscribe via email send a message with subject unsubscribe and > >> body unsubscribe to [email protected] > >> > >> You can reach the person managing the list at > >> [email protected] > >> > >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > >> than "Re: Contents of PRT-MADEIRA digest..." > >> > >> > >> Today's Topics: > >> > >> 1. Re: Question if list is still active! (Paulo Santos Perneta) > >> 2. Re: Question if list is still active! ([email protected]) > >> > >> > >> To contact the %(real_name)s list administrator, send an email to > >> %(real_name)[email protected] > >> > >> To post a message to the PRT-MADEIRA mailing list -- > [email protected], send an email to %(real_name)[email protected] > >> > >> __________________________________________________________ > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > %(real_name)[email protected]%(host_name)s > >> with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the > body of the > >> email with no additional text. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > > Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref > > Unsubscribe > https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/[email protected] > > Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: > https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 > > Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog > > RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb > community > > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref > Unsubscribe > https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/[email protected] > Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: > https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 > Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog > RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb > community >

I realize this is an old topic, but does anyone have the source for the information described in the first two paragraphs by Paulo Santos? I didn't find anything like that in the parish records available online. Best regards, Manuel

Anyone related to Antonio de Freitas Candelaria and Ana Teles from Fayal (Faial) Madeira Marie Sent from my iPhone > On Aug 19, 2019, at 12:10 AM, Cristina Mahon <[email protected]> wrote: > > Luis, > > Please add me as well - [email protected] Thanks! > > Cristina Mahon > > [email protected] wrote: >> Send PRT-MADEIRA mailing list submissions to [email protected] >> >> To subscribe via email send a message with subject subscribe and body >> subscribe to [email protected] >> >> To unsubscribe via email send a message with subject unsubscribe and >> body unsubscribe to [email protected] >> >> You can reach the person managing the list at >> [email protected] >> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific >> than "Re: Contents of PRT-MADEIRA digest..." >> >> >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. Re: Question if list is still active! (Paulo Santos Perneta) >> 2. Re: Question if list is still active! ([email protected]) >> >> >> To contact the %(real_name)s list administrator, send an email to >> %(real_name)[email protected] >> >> To post a message to the PRT-MADEIRA mailing list -- [email protected], send an email to %(real_name)[email protected] >> >> __________________________________________________________ >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to %(real_name)[email protected]%(host_name)s >> with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the body of the >> email with no additional text. > > _______________________________________________ > _______________________________________________ > Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref > Unsubscribe https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/[email protected] > Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 > Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog > RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb community

Luis, Please add me as well - [email protected]   Thanks! Cristina Mahon [email protected] wrote: > Send PRT-MADEIRA mailing list submissions to [email protected] > > To subscribe via email send a message with subject subscribe and body > subscribe to [email protected] > > To unsubscribe via email send a message with subject unsubscribe and > body unsubscribe to [email protected] > > You can reach the person managing the list at > [email protected] > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of PRT-MADEIRA digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Question if list is still active! (Paulo Santos Perneta) > 2. Re: Question if list is still active! ([email protected]) > > > To contact the %(real_name)s list administrator, send an email to > %(real_name)[email protected] > > To post a message to the PRT-MADEIRA mailing list -- [email protected], send an email to %(real_name)[email protected] > > __________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to %(real_name)[email protected]%(host_name)s > with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the body of the > email with no additional text.

Cece, I found the record and I have attached it for you. However, I can see their names, but can not see any parental information. Maybe some one else can point that out if it is there. Lou -----Original Message----- From: Cece Soccer4all <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, August 15, 2019 3:52 PM To: Madeira <[email protected]> Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Question if list is still active! Been a really long time since I have seen a message from the list - so I'm gonna give it a shot! Hi all! I am looking at Manuel Pires who married Maria Rodrigues in Santa Cruz in 1598 I am hoping to find out who each of their parents are. I do see some trees show Maria Rodrigues to be the daughter of Mendo Anes and Francisca de Cairos - but so far I can find no source for that info. Hope everyone is doing well! Cece _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref Unsubscribe https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/[email protected] Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb community

I Luis, I seem to have missed that too. Can you please add me to the group? Thanks, Paulo Luis Beal via PRT-MADEIRA <[email protected]> escreveu no dia sexta, 16/08/2019 à(s) 03:22: > Cece, > About 3 years ago we moved over to Google groups. I got tired of dealing > with Rootsweb's problems. I sent you an invite but you must have not seen > it. Anyway, that's where most of the action has been happening. > If you want to join go here, or let me know and I will add you: > https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/madeira-genealogy > > Luis Beal > Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android > > On Thu, Aug 15, 2019 at 22:16, Cece Soccer4all<[email protected]> > wrote: Been a really long time since I have seen a message from the list > - so I'm gonna give it a shot! > Hi all! > > I am looking at Manuel Pires who married Maria Rodrigues in Santa Cruz in > 1598 > I am hoping to find out who each of their parents are. > > I do see some trees show Maria Rodrigues to be the daughter of Mendo Anes > and Francisca de Cairos - but so far I can find no source for that info. > > Hope everyone is doing well! > Cece > > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref > Unsubscribe > https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/[email protected] > Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: > https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 > Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog > RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb > community > > > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref > Unsubscribe > https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/[email protected] > Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: > https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 > Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog > RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb > community >

Cece,  About 3 years ago we moved over to Google groups. I got tired of dealing with Rootsweb's problems. I sent you an invite but you must have not seen it. Anyway, that's where most of the action has been happening. If you want to join go here, or let me know and I will add you:https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/madeira-genealogy Luis Beal Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Thu, Aug 15, 2019 at 22:16, Cece Soccer4all<[email protected]> wrote: Been a really long time since I have seen a message from the list - so I'm gonna give it a shot! Hi all! I am looking at Manuel Pires who married Maria Rodrigues in Santa Cruz in 1598 I am hoping to find out who each of their parents are. I do see some trees show Maria Rodrigues to be the daughter of Mendo Anes and Francisca de Cairos - but so far I can find no source for that info. Hope everyone is doing well! Cece _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref Unsubscribe https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/[email protected] Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb community

Been a really long time since I have seen a message from the list - so I'm gonna give it a shot! Hi all! I am looking at Manuel Pires who married Maria Rodrigues in Santa Cruz in 1598 I am hoping to find out who each of their parents are. I do see some trees show Maria Rodrigues to be the daughter of Mendo Anes and Francisca de Cairos - but so far I can find no source for that info. Hope everyone is doing well! Cece

Caro José, I let you know if if find some relevant info on the couple. At the moment I am researching my Camacha family branches. Regards AN JOSE FERNANDES <[email protected]> escreveu no dia domingo, 14/04/2019 à(s) 02:41: > Alvaro,Thanks for your last reply re: Simão Nunes. I totally agree with > you. I remember that he is dead at Maria's marriage. Is that a good clue? > He is dead by 1651. If this is his second marriage, that makes sense? For > that matter so is Ana Francisca. Let me know if you get anywhere. When I am > in the island this Fall, I will try to see what I can do.Cheers. > José Fernandes > > On Friday, April 12, 2019, 6:40:01 p.m. EDT, Miguel de Castro > Henriques <[email protected]> wrote: > > José, I'm glad too to "see you" digitally and licking ! I'm still in the > Kingdom of Alentejo where besides Gramachos and Caiados, I discovered > several Alentejanos ancestors who link with my madeiran people - Barradas, > Mascarenhas and Lobos namely. > > As for Afonso Portocarreiro little is known, apart from being a member of > the noble Portocarreiros of remote antiquity - the most remarkable fact is > that he was one of the first sesmeiros in Madeira. and that he was a close > cousin of Tristão Vaz (Teixeira). > > Cheers, > > > Miguel > > > A study of the Portocarreiros by the great genealogist Manuel Abranches de > Soveral: > > > http://www.soveral.info/mas/Portocarrero.htm > > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref > Unsubscribe > https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/[email protected] > Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: > https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 > Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog > RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb > community > > > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref > Unsubscribe > https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/[email protected] > Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: > https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 > Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog > RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb > community >

Caro Miguel, Thank you so much for the info. Very interesting indeed. Which genealogist established the link? I was not able to find any info Vaz and Clode. Thanks AN Miguel de Castro Henriques <[email protected]> escreveu no dia sexta, 12/04/2019 à(s) 23:39: > Álvaro, this is the link > > > Maria de Andrade > < > https://www.geni.com/people/Maria-de-Andrade/6000000001485959203?through=6000000024920187183 > > > his mother > > → > > Inês de Andrade > < > https://www.geni.com/people/In%C3%AAs-de-Andrade/6000000004251388053?through=6000000024920187183 > > > her mother > > → > > Catarina Rodrigues Fernandes > < > https://www.geni.com/people/Catarina-Fernandes/6000000004251173591?through=6000000024920187183 > > > her mother > > → > > Beatriz de Viana > < > https://www.geni.com/people/Beatriz-de-Viana/6000000004251344380?through=6000000024920187183 > > > her mother > > → > > Catarina Rodrigues > < > https://www.geni.com/people/Catarina-Rodrigues/6000000024920186174?through=6000000024920187183 > > > her mother > > → > > Afonso Porto- Carreiro > <https://www.geni.com/people/Afonso-Porto-Carreiro/6000000024920187183> > > > Portocarreiro > > Esta linhagem é de remotas origens e o seu nome deriva do senhorio da terra > de Portocarreiro, junto de Canaveses. > > Na verdade, todas as genealogias, desde as mais antigas, dão aos > Portocarrero uma origem asturiana, algumas entroncando-a mesmo nos reis de > Leão. > > A confusão em que alguns incorrem ao atribuir-lhes origens moçárabes deve > provir do facto de a filha do 1º Portocarrero ter casado com D. Henrique > Fernandes de Toledo, o Magro, filho do Conde D. Fernando Afonso de Toledo, > a quem são efectivamente atribuídas origens moçárabes. > > O nome Portocarreiro, efectivamente, é português (se bem que com numerosa e > ilustre descendência em Espanha onde foi adoptada a grafia Portocarrero > <https://geneall.net/pt/F/10488/>, por vezes também usada pelos > Portocarreiros portugueses), e deriva do couto de Portocarreiro, depois > concelho junto ao Marco de Canavezes, que foi doado pelo conde D. Henrique > a D. Raimundo Garcia de Portocarreiro, o 1º do nome, filho de um D. Garcia > Afonso de Leão, rico-homem asturiense, e de sua mulher D. Estevaínha > Mendes, também asturiana. > > > > On Fri, 12 Apr 2019 at 03:01, Fundo Salgados <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > Caro Miguel, > > > > It looks like Madeira was the place of a perfect melting pot. > > I descend also from Manuel de Saldanha e Maria de Andrade. How does she > > relate to Porto-Carreiros? I somehow missed that link. Thanks. > > AN. > > > > > > Miguel de Castro Henriques <[email protected]> escreveu > no > > dia quarta, 10/04/2019 à(s) 20:53: > > > > > Meus caros, > > > > > > Pedro Dias Saldanha and Ana Henriques had 7 sons and daugthers ( a > fair > > > and "normal" number for those times. This number may indicate a > > moderately > > > wealthy status).Their names were Diogo Dias Saldanha married to Maria > > > Ferreira, Pascoal Dias Saldanha,Ana Henriques, Maria Henriques,Pedro > Dias > > > Saldanha, Manuel Dias Saldanha married to Maria de Andrade and Beatriz > > > Gonçalves. > > > > > > > > > Manuel Dias Saldanha (he appears with that full name in a document that > > > I'll try to retrieve) married to Maria de Andrade is one of my 8th > great > > > grandfathers. The interesting thing in the case of this marriage is > that > > a > > > descendant by female of slaves (though forros) marries a "menina bem". > a > > > descendant of Noronhas, Câmaras, Andrades, Cairos Ribeiro, Baptista > > > Spínolas and Porto-Carreiros, Would this be possible if he wasn't , > after > > > all a Saldanha ? (knowing the high level of social selectivism, and the > > > practice of endogamy. peculiar of those times - the only excuse for a > > > descendant of a mulata would be the high status of his husband/partner. > > > That could "whiten" the problem, the problem of a non caucasian or > > "infect > > > "race (like jewish) being involved in the equation. > > > > > > Interesting (and revealing) thing too is the fact that Diogo Dias > > > Saldanha marries a Ferreira. She is the daughter of Sinão Nunes and > Ana > > > Ferreira - from the Ferreiras Casta Grande ? We don't know. But bearing > > the > > > name Ferreira and knowing that the majority of women of that era (and > > even > > > after) were knwon only by their surname) tells loads. > > > > > > So my point is: these 2 sons (Diogo and Manuel) of Pedro Dias and Ana > > > Henriques made "good" marriages. This strogly indicates that though > > > "conspurcated" by less than third class blood (moorish or black) after > > all > > > they were Saldanhas, of the "good" stock. > > > > > > Com os melhores cumprimentos aos 2 ilustres membros do clan Nóbrega, > > > > > > Miguel de Castro Henriques > > > > > > On Sat, 6 Apr 2019 at 00:19, Fundo Salgados < > [email protected]> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > In Pedro's record of baptism she is named Concordia Fernandes. > However > > , > > > in > > > > 1582 she is called Concordia Martins in her daughter Antonia baptism > > > > record. In both records she is classified as Baça e forra. I think > that > > > > Clode also calls her Martins. Most probably she was known by those > two > > > > family names. > > > > > > > > I am not sure that Diogo assumed the paternity of Pedro. In his > record > > of > > > > baptism we can read the following sentence: o pai diz ela que era > Diogo > > > > Dias da Serra. (the father, she says, is Diogo Dias). In any part of > > the > > > > record it is writen that Diogo recognized being the father. It is > only > > > by > > > > her statement > > > > that we knows that Diogo is the father. > > > > I don't have the name of the priest who baptized Pedro, but his > sister > > > > Antonia was baptized by Melchior Mourato and he wrote: "o pai não se > > > soube" > > > > / the father we could not find out who it was. > > > > > > > > The descendant of Pedro Dias de Saldanha I am referring had not > drooped > > > the > > > > Saldanha family name. He was called Antonio Joao Saldanha and he was > > > > aplying in 1769 (almost 200 hundred years after the baptism of Pedro) > > to > > > > Familiar do Santo Oficio. > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > A. Nobrega > > > > > > > > > > > > JOSE FERNANDES <[email protected]> escreveu no dia sexta, > > > > 5/04/2019 > > > > à(s) 00:38: > > > > > > > > > It is Concordia Fernandes. I have read the baptism record and it > > > > confirms > > > > > that she is a slave and that the father was Diogo. In fact, I was > > very > > > > > pleased that Diogo assumed that he was the father. At the time it > was > > > > very > > > > > courageous to do so. I am one of his descendants and proud to be > so.I > > > > also > > > > > agree that Ana Henriques should be a slave or daughter of a slave. > It > > > > makes > > > > > sense. It also makes sense, that the descendants of Pedro drop the > > name > > > > > Saldanha. I suspect to avoid the connection. Too bad. > > > > > José Fernandes > > > > > > > > > > On Thursday, April 4, 2019, 8:56:01 a.m. EDT, Fundo Salgados < > > > > > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Caro Miguel, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I found some additional information about Pedro Dias de Saldanha > and > > > his > > > > > wife in a document of a descendent who contests the following > > > statement, > > > > > declaring it to be false. > > > > > > > > > > "dizem ser filho de Concórdia Martins, mulata forra, que sua > mulher > > > Ana > > > > > Henriques fora escrava mourisca de Aires de Ornelas e a qual > > resgatara > > > o > > > > > tal seu marido Pedro Dias". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If we are sure from the records that Concórdia Fernandes was baça e > > > > forra, > > > > > I am tempted to believe that Ana was escrava mourisca de Aires de > > > > Ornelas. > > > > > That would explain the missing information on her in the marriage > > > record. > > > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > > > A. Nobrega > > > > > > > > > > Miguel de Castro Henriques via <[email protected]> escreveu > > no > > > > dia > > > > > sexta, 30/10/2015 à(s) 21:46: > > > > > > > > > > > Dear A. Nóbrega > > > > > > > > > > > > That's interesting, thanks. Indeed confirms my first feeling. > > > > > > > > > > > > Dona Maria, wife of Diogo Dias Saldanha, was indeed D. Maria > > > Catanho., > > > > > > daughter of António Vieira (Meirinho) and D. Margarida Catanho. > > > > > > > > > > > > Diogo Dias father was Dr.Diogo Enes Saldanha, also Ouvidor de > > > Machico. > > > > > > "Ouvidor" was a "magistrate", a judge. > > > > > > > > > > > > It seems, according to Clode, that he comes from another Digo > > > Saldanha, > > > > > who > > > > > > had lands at Santo da Serra. > > > > > > > > > > > > He probably connects wtih the Saldanhas from Portugal, but I > don't > > > know > > > > > > how. > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > > > > > > > > On 29 October 2015 at 19:46, Fundo Salgados via < > > > > > [email protected]> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > I was reading some older posts and the following comment from > > > Miguel > > > > > > Castro > > > > > > > Henriques about Concordia Fernandes caught my attention: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Perdo Dias Saldanha was a natural son of Diogo Annes Saldanha > > > > (ouvidor > > > > > > de > > > > > > > Machico) and Concórdia Fernandes. (I suppose Concórdia was a > > black > > > > > woman, > > > > > > > or mestiça. But I don't know why I suppose so.)" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The supposition is correct. Concordia is also my ancestor. She > is > > > > > > described > > > > > > > in her son Pedro Dias de Saldanha baptism record as baça e > forra: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Termo do baptismo > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Em os 21 dias do mês de Outubro de 1579, baptizei a Pedro > filho > > de > > > > > > > Concórdia Fernandes, mulher baça forra; o pai diz ela que era > > Diogo > > > > > Dias > > > > > > da > > > > > > > Serra. Foram padrinhos Manuel Gomes e madrinha Maria Gonçalves, > > > > mulher > > > > > > de > > > > > > > João Gonçalves do jogo da bola, todos moradores neste lugar." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is a well known place in Camacha called "Achada de Diogo > > > > Dias". I > > > > > > > suppose that is why he is called Diogo Dias da "Serra". He was > > > > married > > > > > > with > > > > > > > a Dona Maria and was a wealthy person judging by the sum of > 4000 > > > > > cruzados > > > > > > > mentioned in his will. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A. Nóbrega > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > > without > > > > > the > > > > > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without > > > > the > > > > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref > > > > > Unsubscribe > > > > > > https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/[email protected] > > > > > Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and > Conditions: > > > > > https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 > > > > > Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog > > > > > RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal > > RootsWeb > > > > > community > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref > > > > > Unsubscribe > > > > > > https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/[email protected] > > > > > Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and > Conditions: > > > > > https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 > > > > > Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog > > > > > RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal > > RootsWeb > > > > > community > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref > > > > Unsubscribe > > > > https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/[email protected] > > > > Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: > > > > https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 > > > > Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog > > > > RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal > RootsWeb > > > > community > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref > > > Unsubscribe > > > https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/[email protected] > > > Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: > > > https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 > > > Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog > > > RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb > > > community > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref > > Unsubscribe > > https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/[email protected] > > Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: > > https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 > > Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog > > RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb > > community > > > > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref > Unsubscribe > https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/[email protected] > Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: > https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 > Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog > RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb > community >

Alvaro,Thanks for your last reply re: Simão Nunes. I totally agree with you. I remember that he is dead at Maria's marriage. Is that a good clue? He is dead by 1651. If this is his second marriage, that makes sense? For that matter so is Ana Francisca. Let me know if you get anywhere. When I am in the island this Fall, I will try to see what I can do.Cheers. José Fernandes On Friday, April 12, 2019, 6:40:01 p.m. EDT, Miguel de Castro Henriques <[email protected]> wrote: José, I'm glad too to "see you" digitally and licking !  I'm still in the Kingdom of Alentejo where besides Gramachos and Caiados,  I discovered several Alentejanos ancestors who link with my madeiran people - Barradas, Mascarenhas and Lobos namely. As for Afonso Portocarreiro little is known, apart from being a member of the noble Portocarreiros of remote antiquity - the most remarkable fact is that he was one of the first sesmeiros in Madeira. and that he was a close cousin of Tristão Vaz (Teixeira). Cheers, Miguel A study of the Portocarreiros by the great genealogist Manuel Abranches de Soveral: http://www.soveral.info/mas/Portocarrero.htm _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref Unsubscribe https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/[email protected] Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb community

José, I'm glad too to "see you" digitally and licking ! I'm still in the Kingdom of Alentejo where besides Gramachos and Caiados, I discovered several Alentejanos ancestors who link with my madeiran people - Barradas, Mascarenhas and Lobos namely. As for Afonso Portocarreiro little is known, apart from being a member of the noble Portocarreiros of remote antiquity - the most remarkable fact is that he was one of the first sesmeiros in Madeira. and that he was a close cousin of Tristão Vaz (Teixeira). Cheers, Miguel A study of the Portocarreiros by the great genealogist Manuel Abranches de Soveral: http://www.soveral.info/mas/Portocarrero.htm

Álvaro, this is the link Maria de Andrade <https://www.geni.com/people/Maria-de-Andrade/6000000001485959203?through=6000000024920187183> his mother → Inês de Andrade <https://www.geni.com/people/In%C3%AAs-de-Andrade/6000000004251388053?through=6000000024920187183> her mother → Catarina Rodrigues Fernandes <https://www.geni.com/people/Catarina-Fernandes/6000000004251173591?through=6000000024920187183> her mother → Beatriz de Viana <https://www.geni.com/people/Beatriz-de-Viana/6000000004251344380?through=6000000024920187183> her mother → Catarina Rodrigues <https://www.geni.com/people/Catarina-Rodrigues/6000000024920186174?through=6000000024920187183> her mother → Afonso Porto- Carreiro <https://www.geni.com/people/Afonso-Porto-Carreiro/6000000024920187183> Portocarreiro Esta linhagem é de remotas origens e o seu nome deriva do senhorio da terra de Portocarreiro, junto de Canaveses. Na verdade, todas as genealogias, desde as mais antigas, dão aos Portocarrero uma origem asturiana, algumas entroncando-a mesmo nos reis de Leão. A confusão em que alguns incorrem ao atribuir-lhes origens moçárabes deve provir do facto de a filha do 1º Portocarrero ter casado com D. Henrique Fernandes de Toledo, o Magro, filho do Conde D. Fernando Afonso de Toledo, a quem são efectivamente atribuídas origens moçárabes. O nome Portocarreiro, efectivamente, é português (se bem que com numerosa e ilustre descendência em Espanha onde foi adoptada a grafia Portocarrero <https://geneall.net/pt/F/10488/>, por vezes também usada pelos Portocarreiros portugueses), e deriva do couto de Portocarreiro, depois concelho junto ao Marco de Canavezes, que foi doado pelo conde D. Henrique a D. Raimundo Garcia de Portocarreiro, o 1º do nome, filho de um D. Garcia Afonso de Leão, rico-homem asturiense, e de sua mulher D. Estevaínha Mendes, também asturiana. On Fri, 12 Apr 2019 at 03:01, Fundo Salgados <[email protected]> wrote: > Caro Miguel, > > It looks like Madeira was the place of a perfect melting pot. > I descend also from Manuel de Saldanha e Maria de Andrade. How does she > relate to Porto-Carreiros? I somehow missed that link. Thanks. > AN. > > > Miguel de Castro Henriques <[email protected]> escreveu no > dia quarta, 10/04/2019 à(s) 20:53: > > > Meus caros, > > > > Pedro Dias Saldanha and Ana Henriques had 7 sons and daugthers ( a fair > > and "normal" number for those times. This number may indicate a > moderately > > wealthy status).Their names were Diogo Dias Saldanha married to Maria > > Ferreira, Pascoal Dias Saldanha,Ana Henriques, Maria Henriques,Pedro Dias > > Saldanha, Manuel Dias Saldanha married to Maria de Andrade and Beatriz > > Gonçalves. > > > > > > Manuel Dias Saldanha (he appears with that full name in a document that > > I'll try to retrieve) married to Maria de Andrade is one of my 8th great > > grandfathers. The interesting thing in the case of this marriage is that > a > > descendant by female of slaves (though forros) marries a "menina bem". a > > descendant of Noronhas, Câmaras, Andrades, Cairos Ribeiro, Baptista > > Spínolas and Porto-Carreiros, Would this be possible if he wasn't , after > > all a Saldanha ? (knowing the high level of social selectivism, and the > > practice of endogamy. peculiar of those times - the only excuse for a > > descendant of a mulata would be the high status of his husband/partner. > > That could "whiten" the problem, the problem of a non caucasian or > "infect > > "race (like jewish) being involved in the equation. > > > > Interesting (and revealing) thing too is the fact that Diogo Dias > > Saldanha marries a Ferreira. She is the daughter of Sinão Nunes and Ana > > Ferreira - from the Ferreiras Casta Grande ? We don't know. But bearing > the > > name Ferreira and knowing that the majority of women of that era (and > even > > after) were knwon only by their surname) tells loads. > > > > So my point is: these 2 sons (Diogo and Manuel) of Pedro Dias and Ana > > Henriques made "good" marriages. This strogly indicates that though > > "conspurcated" by less than third class blood (moorish or black) after > all > > they were Saldanhas, of the "good" stock. > > > > Com os melhores cumprimentos aos 2 ilustres membros do clan Nóbrega, > > > > Miguel de Castro Henriques > > > > On Sat, 6 Apr 2019 at 00:19, Fundo Salgados <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > > > In Pedro's record of baptism she is named Concordia Fernandes. However > , > > in > > > 1582 she is called Concordia Martins in her daughter Antonia baptism > > > record. In both records she is classified as Baça e forra. I think that > > > Clode also calls her Martins. Most probably she was known by those two > > > family names. > > > > > > I am not sure that Diogo assumed the paternity of Pedro. In his record > of > > > baptism we can read the following sentence: o pai diz ela que era Diogo > > > Dias da Serra. (the father, she says, is Diogo Dias). In any part of > the > > > record it is writen that Diogo recognized being the father. It is only > > by > > > her statement > > > that we knows that Diogo is the father. > > > I don't have the name of the priest who baptized Pedro, but his sister > > > Antonia was baptized by Melchior Mourato and he wrote: "o pai não se > > soube" > > > / the father we could not find out who it was. > > > > > > The descendant of Pedro Dias de Saldanha I am referring had not drooped > > the > > > Saldanha family name. He was called Antonio Joao Saldanha and he was > > > aplying in 1769 (almost 200 hundred years after the baptism of Pedro) > to > > > Familiar do Santo Oficio. > > > > > > Regards > > > A. Nobrega > > > > > > > > > JOSE FERNANDES <[email protected]> escreveu no dia sexta, > > > 5/04/2019 > > > à(s) 00:38: > > > > > > > It is Concordia Fernandes. I have read the baptism record and it > > > confirms > > > > that she is a slave and that the father was Diogo. In fact, I was > very > > > > pleased that Diogo assumed that he was the father. At the time it was > > > very > > > > courageous to do so. I am one of his descendants and proud to be so.I > > > also > > > > agree that Ana Henriques should be a slave or daughter of a slave. It > > > makes > > > > sense. It also makes sense, that the descendants of Pedro drop the > name > > > > Saldanha. I suspect to avoid the connection. Too bad. > > > > José Fernandes > > > > > > > > On Thursday, April 4, 2019, 8:56:01 a.m. EDT, Fundo Salgados < > > > > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > Caro Miguel, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I found some additional information about Pedro Dias de Saldanha and > > his > > > > wife in a document of a descendent who contests the following > > statement, > > > > declaring it to be false. > > > > > > > > "dizem ser filho de Concórdia Martins, mulata forra, que sua mulher > > Ana > > > > Henriques fora escrava mourisca de Aires de Ornelas e a qual > resgatara > > o > > > > tal seu marido Pedro Dias". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If we are sure from the records that Concórdia Fernandes was baça e > > > forra, > > > > I am tempted to believe that Ana was escrava mourisca de Aires de > > > Ornelas. > > > > That would explain the missing information on her in the marriage > > record. > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > A. Nobrega > > > > > > > > Miguel de Castro Henriques via <[email protected]> escreveu > no > > > dia > > > > sexta, 30/10/2015 à(s) 21:46: > > > > > > > > > Dear A. Nóbrega > > > > > > > > > > That's interesting, thanks. Indeed confirms my first feeling. > > > > > > > > > > Dona Maria, wife of Diogo Dias Saldanha, was indeed D. Maria > > Catanho., > > > > > daughter of António Vieira (Meirinho) and D. Margarida Catanho. > > > > > > > > > > Diogo Dias father was Dr.Diogo Enes Saldanha, also Ouvidor de > > Machico. > > > > > "Ouvidor" was a "magistrate", a judge. > > > > > > > > > > It seems, according to Clode, that he comes from another Digo > > Saldanha, > > > > who > > > > > had lands at Santo da Serra. > > > > > > > > > > He probably connects wtih the Saldanhas from Portugal, but I don't > > know > > > > > how. > > > > > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > > > > > > On 29 October 2015 at 19:46, Fundo Salgados via < > > > > [email protected]> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > I was reading some older posts and the following comment from > > Miguel > > > > > Castro > > > > > > Henriques about Concordia Fernandes caught my attention: > > > > > > > > > > > > "Perdo Dias Saldanha was a natural son of Diogo Annes Saldanha > > > (ouvidor > > > > > de > > > > > > Machico) and Concórdia Fernandes. (I suppose Concórdia was a > black > > > > woman, > > > > > > or mestiça. But I don't know why I suppose so.)" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The supposition is correct. Concordia is also my ancestor. She is > > > > > described > > > > > > in her son Pedro Dias de Saldanha baptism record as baça e forra: > > > > > > > > > > > > Termo do baptismo > > > > > > > > > > > > "Em os 21 dias do mês de Outubro de 1579, baptizei a Pedro filho > de > > > > > > Concórdia Fernandes, mulher baça forra; o pai diz ela que era > Diogo > > > > Dias > > > > > da > > > > > > Serra. Foram padrinhos Manuel Gomes e madrinha Maria Gonçalves, > > > mulher > > > > > de > > > > > > João Gonçalves do jogo da bola, todos moradores neste lugar." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is a well known place in Camacha called "Achada de Diogo > > > Dias". I > > > > > > suppose that is why he is called Diogo Dias da "Serra". He was > > > married > > > > > with > > > > > > a Dona Maria and was a wealthy person judging by the sum of 4000 > > > > cruzados > > > > > > mentioned in his will. > > > > > > > > > > > > A. Nóbrega > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > > without > > > > the > > > > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > > > the > > > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref > > > > Unsubscribe > > > > https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/[email protected] > > > > Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: > > > > https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 > > > > Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog > > > > RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal > RootsWeb > > > > community > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref > > > > Unsubscribe > > > > https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/[email protected] > > > > Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: > > > > https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 > > > > Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog > > > > RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal > RootsWeb > > > > community > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref > > > Unsubscribe > > > https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/[email protected] > > > Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: > > > https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 > > > Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog > > > RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb > > > community > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref > > Unsubscribe > > https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/[email protected] > > Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: > > https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 > > Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog > > RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb > > community > > > > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref > Unsubscribe > https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/[email protected] > Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: > https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 > Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog > RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb > community >

lou,unfortunately i don't have them for now. José Fernandes On Thursday, April 11, 2019, 10:01:50 p.m. EDT, Fundo Salgados <[email protected]> wrote: Caro Miguel, It looks like Madeira was the place of a perfect melting pot. I descend also from Manuel de Saldanha e Maria de Andrade. How does she relate to Porto-Carreiros? I somehow missed that link. Thanks. AN. Miguel de Castro Henriques <[email protected]> escreveu no dia quarta, 10/04/2019 à(s) 20:53: > Meus caros, > > Pedro Dias Saldanha and Ana Henriques had  7 sons and daugthers ( a fair > and "normal" number for those times. This number may indicate a moderately > wealthy status).Their names were Diogo Dias Saldanha married to Maria > Ferreira, Pascoal Dias Saldanha,Ana Henriques, Maria Henriques,Pedro Dias > Saldanha, Manuel Dias Saldanha married to Maria de Andrade and Beatriz > Gonçalves. > > > Manuel Dias Saldanha (he appears with that full name in a document that > I'll try to retrieve)  married to Maria de Andrade is one of my 8th great > grandfathers. The interesting thing in the case of this marriage is that a > descendant by female of slaves (though forros) marries a "menina bem". a > descendant of Noronhas, Câmaras, Andrades, Cairos Ribeiro, Baptista > Spínolas and Porto-Carreiros, Would this be possible if he wasn't , after > all a Saldanha ? (knowing the high level of social selectivism, and the > practice of endogamy. peculiar of those times - the only excuse for a > descendant of a mulata would be the high status of his husband/partner. > That could "whiten" the problem, the problem of a non caucasian or "infect > "race (like jewish) being involved in the equation. > > Interesting (and revealing)  thing too is the fact that Diogo Dias > Saldanha  marries a Ferreira. She is the daughter of Sinão Nunes and Ana > Ferreira - from the Ferreiras Casta Grande ? We don't know. But bearing the > name Ferreira and knowing that the majority of women of that era (and even > after) were knwon only by their surname) tells loads. > > So my point is: these 2 sons (Diogo and Manuel) of Pedro Dias and Ana > Henriques made "good" marriages. This strogly indicates that though > "conspurcated" by  less than third class blood (moorish or black) after all > they were Saldanhas, of the "good" stock. > > Com os melhores cumprimentos aos 2 ilustres membros do clan Nóbrega, > > Miguel de Castro Henriques > > On Sat, 6 Apr 2019 at 00:19, Fundo Salgados <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > In Pedro's record of baptism she is named Concordia Fernandes. However , > in > > 1582 she is called Concordia Martins in her daughter Antonia baptism > > record. In both records she is classified as Baça e forra. I think that > > Clode also calls her Martins. Most probably she was known by those two > > family names. > > > > I am not sure that Diogo assumed the paternity of Pedro. In his record of > > baptism we can read the following sentence: o pai diz ela que era Diogo > > Dias da Serra. (the father, she says, is Diogo Dias). In any part of the > > record it is writen that Diogo  recognized being the father. It is only > by > > her statement > > that we knows that Diogo is the father. > > I don't have the name of the priest who baptized Pedro, but his sister > > Antonia was baptized by Melchior Mourato and he wrote: "o pai não se > soube" > > / the  father we could not find out who it was. > > > > The descendant of Pedro Dias de Saldanha I am referring had not drooped > the > > Saldanha family name. He was called Antonio Joao Saldanha and he was > > aplying in 1769 (almost 200 hundred years after the baptism of Pedro)  to > > Familiar do Santo Oficio. > > > > Regards > > A. Nobrega > > > > > > JOSE FERNANDES <[email protected]> escreveu no dia sexta, > > 5/04/2019 > > à(s) 00:38: > > > > > It is Concordia Fernandes. I have  read the baptism record and it > > confirms > > > that she is a slave and that the father was Diogo. In fact, I was very > > > pleased that Diogo assumed that he was the father. At the time it was > > very > > > courageous to do so. I am one of his descendants and proud to be so.I > > also > > > agree that Ana Henriques should be a slave or daughter of a slave. It > > makes > > > sense. It also makes sense, that the descendants of Pedro drop the name > > > Saldanha. I suspect to avoid the connection. Too bad. > > > José Fernandes > > > > > >    On Thursday, April 4, 2019, 8:56:01 a.m. EDT, Fundo Salgados < > > > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > >  Caro Miguel, > > > > > > > > > > > > I found some additional information about Pedro Dias de Saldanha and > his > > > wife in a document of a descendent who contests the following > statement, > > > declaring it to be false. > > > > > >  "dizem ser filho de Concórdia Martins, mulata forra, que sua mulher > Ana > > > Henriques fora escrava mourisca de Aires de Ornelas e a qual resgatara > o > > > tal seu marido Pedro Dias". > > > > > > > > > > > > If we are sure from the records that Concórdia Fernandes was baça e > > forra, > > > I am tempted to believe that Ana was escrava mourisca de Aires de > > Ornelas. > > > That would explain the missing information on her in the marriage > record. > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > A. Nobrega > > > > > > Miguel de Castro Henriques via <[email protected]> escreveu no > > dia > > > sexta, 30/10/2015 à(s) 21:46: > > > > > > > Dear A. Nóbrega > > > > > > > > That's interesting, thanks. Indeed confirms my first feeling. > > > > > > > > Dona Maria, wife of Diogo Dias Saldanha, was indeed D. Maria > Catanho., > > > > daughter of António Vieira (Meirinho) and D. Margarida Catanho. > > > > > > > > Diogo Dias father was Dr.Diogo  Enes Saldanha, also Ouvidor de > Machico. > > > > "Ouvidor" was a "magistrate", a judge. > > > > > > > > It seems, according to Clode, that he comes from another Digo > Saldanha, > > > who > > > > had lands at Santo da Serra. > > > > > > > > He probably connects wtih the Saldanhas from Portugal, but I don't > know > > > > how. > > > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > > > > On 29 October 2015 at 19:46, Fundo Salgados via < > > > [email protected]> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > I was reading some older posts and the following comment from > Miguel > > > > Castro > > > > > Henriques about Concordia Fernandes caught my attention: > > > > > > > > > > "Perdo Dias Saldanha was a natural son of Diogo Annes Saldanha > > (ouvidor > > > > de > > > > > Machico) and Concórdia Fernandes. (I suppose Concórdia was a black > > > woman, > > > > > or mestiça. But I don't know why I suppose so.)" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The supposition is correct. Concordia is also my ancestor. She is > > > > described > > > > > in her son Pedro Dias de Saldanha baptism record as baça e forra: > > > > > > > > > > Termo do baptismo > > > > > > > > > > "Em os 21 dias do mês de Outubro de 1579, baptizei a Pedro filho de > > > > > Concórdia Fernandes, mulher baça forra; o pai diz ela que era Diogo > > > Dias > > > > da > > > > > Serra. Foram padrinhos Manuel Gomes e madrinha Maria Gonçalves, > > mulher > > > > de > > > > > João Gonçalves do jogo da bola, todos moradores neste lugar." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is a well known place in Camacha called "Achada de Diogo > > Dias". I > > > > > suppose that is why he is called Diogo Dias da "Serra". He was > > married > > > > with > > > > > a Dona Maria and was a wealthy person judging by the sum of 4000 > > > cruzados > > > > > mentioned in his will. > > > > > > > > > > A.      Nóbrega > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > > > the > > > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the > > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref > > > Unsubscribe > > > https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/[email protected] > > > Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: > > > https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 > > > Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog > > > RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb > > > community > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref > > > Unsubscribe > > > https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/[email protected] > > > Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: > > > https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 > > > Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog > > > RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb > > > community > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref > > Unsubscribe > > https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/[email protected] > > Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: > > https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 > > Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog > > RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb > > community > > > > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref > Unsubscribe > https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/[email protected] > Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: > https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 > Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog > RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb > community > _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref Unsubscribe https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/[email protected] Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb community

Bob, Thank you, very much I should have provided what I had thus far, regarding this line. Please find the two pedigree charts I have and see if that jives with the information you have. Thanks again. Lou -----Original Message----- From: Bob Pitta <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2019 5:01 PM To: [email protected]; [email protected] Subject: Re: [PT-MADEIRA] Re: Concórdia Fernandes Maybe these attachments can help you. Bob Pitta > On April 11, 2019 at 12:01 PM [email protected] wrote: > > > Miguel and Jose, > I have Ferreira in my line, however, they are in Canhas at the moment, I have not been able to find the parents of Andre Ferreira, born ~1677, his wife was Isabel Rodrigues Pita, born ~1682. Do either of these names coincide with information you have? > Lou > > -----Original Message----- > From: JOSE FERNANDES <[email protected]> > Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2019 8:58 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Re: Concórdia Fernandes > > Miguel,it is always nice to hear from you, also a noble member of the Nóbrega clan. In fact, I think your branch did a lot better.In this case, I don't think Ferreira brings us to Gonçalo Aires. We are not sure where the Ferreira in Maria comes from.Trust all is well in the Kingdom of Alentejo.By the way, Porto Carreiro is also my ancestor. Why is he so important? > José Fernandes > > On Wednesday, April 10, 2019, 8:51:28 p.m. EDT, JOSE FERNANDES <[email protected]> wrote: > > Alvaro, I did find the copy on Archeevo. The problem here is whether it is the correct couple and where does Ferreira come from? If you look closely Maria and Ana's surname is identical. Why is it Ferreira as opposed to Francisca?Could Simão's first marriage be in Santa Maria do Calhau? his parents?What is your opinion on the possibility that the 1636 marriage is the one? I know the time frame is not good but Maria could have been born before marriage.Thanks for your assistance in this. > José Fernandes > > On Wednesday, April 10, 2019, 3:54:04 p.m. EDT, Fundo Salgados <[email protected]> wrote: > > José > > Maria Ferreira married Diogo Dias in 29 May, 1651, in Canico in the chapel of Aires de Ornelas de Vasconcelos. Her parents were Simao Nunes e Ana Ferreira. > > There is no record of a marriage of Simao Nunes and Ana Ferreira. However, there is, as you mentioned, a record of a marriage between Simao Nunes and Ana Francisca in Sé do Funchal in 1636 (Sé, 1636, Lv. 54, f. 112 v.º ). The name of their parents is written (please see the attached image). > > A. > > JOSE FERNANDES <[email protected]> escreveu no dia quarta, > 10/04/2019 à(s) 04:01: > > > Alvaro,in the second paragraph you refer to a marriage. Which > > marriage and where is it? also is it Ana Francisca or Ana Ferreira? > > In Diogo 's marriage the last name is written the same way as > > Maria. The 1636 marriage has no parents.Thanks. > > José Fernandes > > > > On Tuesday, April 9, 2019, 11:42:48 a.m. EDT, Fundo Salgados < > >[email protected]> wrote: > > > > One thing that might indicate a recognition of paternity of Pedro > >de Saldanha by Diogo Dias is the fact that Pedro names his son after > >his father Diogo Dias. It is also interesting to see that some of the > >Saldanhas (Duarte Saldanha and the conego Teologal João de Saldanha) > >were godfathers of Diogo children baptisms. > > > > As for Maria Ferreira ancestors, the names of the parents of Simão > > Nunes and Ana Franc.ª are provided in their marriage record : “Simão > > Nunes, viúvo, filho de Simão Nunes, já defunto, e de sua mulher > > Isabel do Vale, também defunta com Ana Francisca, filha de Manuel > > Francisco, já defunto, e de sua mulher Luzia Gonçalves, também > > defunta, todos fregueses desta freguesia”. Manuel Franc.º and > > Luzia Glz marriage is from > > 1574 and their parents' names is also written. However, I could not > > find reference to the Ferreira family name, thus making more > > difficult to establish a connection. Additionaly Simao and Ana > > Francª married in 1636, so if this was the Ferreira couple Maria > > would be at most 13/14 years old at her marriage in 1651. Since the > > priest says there all fregueses, I had a look at Sé marriage records > > between 1636 and 1639 and I could not find any record of this > > couple. It would also be interesting to look prior to that date to > > see if there was any record of a child born of Simoes Nunes previous marriage (there is no marriage record). > > > > I could not also find any reference to Simões and Ana Ferrª in any > > record (baptism, deaths or marriage records) in Caniço, apart from > > the marriage of Diogo and Maria. Sao Goncalo would be a plausible > > location, but I had not yet the chance to look at this parish birth records. > > > > The majority of my ancestors are from Canico and Camacha so it is > > possible we share a good number of them. > > > > Regards, > > > > Alvaro > > > > > > > > JOSE FERNANDES <[email protected]> escreveu no dia segunda, > > 8/04/2019 à(s) 02:16: > > > > > No info on Simão Nunes and Ana Ferreira. There is one Simão Nunes > > marrying > > > a Ana Francisca in 1636 in Sé. The time frame is good. > > > Unfortunately no parents are given for this couple.I also descend > > > from António Ferreira married to Madalena Jorge in 1685. They too > > > drop the name at least their daughter Antónia de Nóbrega carries her maternal grandfather's name. > > > We are Nóbrega Fernandes. I have done a lot of research in Caniço, > > > but I still have some issues to resolve. Do you also? Perhaps we > > > could exchange some of our problems.Regards. > > > José Fernandes > > > > > > On Sunday, April 7, 2019, 7:13:49 p.m. EDT, Fundo Salgados < > > >[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > That is true. I don't remember of any other record related to > > >slaves, apart from this one, were the name of the father is > > >mentioned. > > > What is interesting about this Ant.º Joao Saldanha is he is Diogo > > >Dias great-grandson. His father - we writes - was Antº Ferrª de > > >Saldanha son > > of > > > Pedro Ferrª Saldanha. Pedro was son of Diogo Dias. I descend from > > > his brother Antº Ferreira who seems to have dropped both Dias and > > > Saldanha names. Do you have any information on Maria Ferreira > > > parents: Simão Nunes and Ana Ferreira? perhaps Ferreiras de São Gonçalo? > > > Regards > > > Alvaro > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > JOSE FERNANDES <[email protected]> escreveu no dia sábado, > > > 6/04/2019 à(s) 00:40: > > > > > > > A. Nóbrega,from a Nóbrega to a Nóbrega, you are right that Diogo > > > > Dias > > da > > > > Serra, mentioned by Concordia Fernandes/Martins does not assume > > > > the paternity, however rarely or never have I seen a slave claim > > > > who the > > > father > > > > was. The priest would not dare put that down unless the father, > > > > who > > was a > > > > powerful man, agreed to. I could be wrong but in this case > > > > Melchior Mourato, who was the priest, felt comfortable in > > > > writing it.My ancestor > > > is > > > > Diogo Dias who marries Maria Ferreira in 1651, Caniço. The > > > > family drops > > > the > > > > name here and takes Ferreira. So I guess that in our case we > > > > drop both names.Thanks for the info. > > > > José Fernandes > > > > > > > > On Friday, April 5, 2019, 7:19:45 p.m. EDT, Fundo Salgados < > > > >[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > In Pedro's record of baptism she is named Concordia Fernandes. > > However , > > > > in > > > > 1582 she is called Concordia Martins in her daughter Antonia > > > > baptism record. In both records she is classified as Baça e forra. > > > > I think that Clode also calls her Martins. Most probably she was > > > > known by those two family names. > > > > > > > > I am not sure that Diogo assumed the paternity of Pedro. In his > > > > record > > of > > > > baptism we can read the following sentence: o pai diz ela que > > > > era Diogo Dias da Serra. (the father, she says, is Diogo Dias). > > > > In any part of > > the > > > > record it is writen that Diogo recognized being the father. It > > > > is only > > > by > > > > her statement > > > > that we knows that Diogo is the father. > > > > I don't have the name of the priest who baptized Pedro, but his > > > > sister Antonia was baptized by Melchior Mourato and he wrote: "o > > > > pai não se > > > soube" > > > > / the father we could not find out who it was. > > > > > > > > The descendant of Pedro Dias de Saldanha I am referring had not > > > > drooped > > > the > > > > Saldanha family name. He was called Antonio Joao Saldanha and he > > > > was aplying in 1769 (almost 200 hundred years after the baptism > > > > of > > > > Pedro) > > to > > > > Familiar do Santo Oficio. > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > A. Nobrega > > > > > > > > > > > > JOSE FERNANDES <[email protected]> escreveu no dia > > > > sexta, > > > > 5/04/2019 > > > > à(s) 00:38: > > > > > > > > > It is Concordia Fernandes. I have read the baptism record and > > > > > it > > > > confirms > > > > > that she is a slave and that the father was Diogo. In fact, I > > > > > was > > very > > > > > pleased that Diogo assumed that he was the father. At the time > > > > > it was > > > > very > > > > > courageous to do so. I am one of his descendants and proud to > > > > > be so.I > > > > also > > > > > agree that Ana Henriques should be a slave or daughter of a > > > > > slave. It > > > > makes > > > > > sense. It also makes sense, that the descendants of Pedro drop > > > > > the > > name > > > > > Saldanha. I suspect to avoid the connection. Too bad. > > > > > José Fernandes > > > > > > > > > > On Thursday, April 4, 2019, 8:56:01 a.m. EDT, Fundo > > > > >Salgados < [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Caro Miguel, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I found some additional information about Pedro Dias de > > > > > Saldanha and > > > his > > > > > wife in a document of a descendent who contests the following > > > statement, > > > > > declaring it to be false. > > > > > > > > > > "dizem ser filho de Concórdia Martins, mulata forra, que sua > > > > >mulher > > > Ana > > > > > Henriques fora escrava mourisca de Aires de Ornelas e a qual > > resgatara > > > o > > > > > tal seu marido Pedro Dias". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If we are sure from the records that Concórdia Fernandes was > > > > > baça e > > > > forra, > > > > > I am tempted to believe that Ana was escrava mourisca de Aires > > > > > de > > > > Ornelas. > > > > > That would explain the missing information on her in the > > > > > marriage > > > record. > > > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > > > A. Nobrega > > > > > > > > > > Miguel de Castro Henriques via <[email protected]> > > > > > escreveu > > no > > > > dia > > > > > sexta, 30/10/2015 à(s) 21:46: > > > > > > > > > > > Dear A. Nóbrega > > > > > > > > > > > > That's interesting, thanks. Indeed confirms my first feeling. > > > > > > > > > > > > Dona Maria, wife of Diogo Dias Saldanha, was indeed D. Maria > > > Catanho., > > > > > > daughter of António Vieira (Meirinho) and D. Margarida Catanho. > > > > > > > > > > > > Diogo Dias father was Dr.Diogo Enes Saldanha, also Ouvidor > > > > > > de > > > Machico. > > > > > > "Ouvidor" was a "magistrate", a judge. > > > > > > > > > > > > It seems, according to Clode, that he comes from another > > > > > > Digo > > > Saldanha, > > > > > who > > > > > > had lands at Santo da Serra. > > > > > > > > > > > > He probably connects wtih the Saldanhas from Portugal, but I > > > > > > don't > > > know > > > > > > how. > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > > > > > > > > On 29 October 2015 at 19:46, Fundo Salgados via < > > > > > [email protected]> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > I was reading some older posts and the following comment > > > > > > > from > > > Miguel > > > > > > Castro > > > > > > > Henriques about Concordia Fernandes caught my attention: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Perdo Dias Saldanha was a natural son of Diogo Annes > > > > > > > Saldanha > > > > (ouvidor > > > > > > de > > > > > > > Machico) and Concórdia Fernandes. (I suppose Concórdia was > > > > > > > a > > black > > > > > woman, > > > > > > > or mestiça. But I don't know why I suppose so.)" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The supposition is correct. Concordia is also my ancestor. > > > > > > > She is > > > > > > described > > > > > > > in her son Pedro Dias de Saldanha baptism record as baça e forra: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Termo do baptismo > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Em os 21 dias do mês de Outubro de 1579, baptizei a Pedro > > > > > > > filho > > de > > > > > > > Concórdia Fernandes, mulher baça forra; o pai diz ela que > > > > > > > era > > Diogo > > > > > Dias > > > > > > da > > > > > > > Serra. Foram padrinhos Manuel Gomes e madrinha Maria > > > > > > > Gonçalves, > > > > mulher > > > > > > de > > > > > > > João Gonçalves do jogo da bola, todos moradores neste lugar." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is a well known place in Camacha called "Achada de > > > > > > > Diogo > > > > Dias". I > > > > > > > suppose that is why he is called Diogo Dias da "Serra". He > > > > > > > was > > > > married > > > > > > with > > > > > > > a Dona Maria and was a wealthy person judging by the sum > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > 4000 > > > > > cruzados > > > > > > > mentioned in his will. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A. 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Caro Miguel, It looks like Madeira was the place of a perfect melting pot. I descend also from Manuel de Saldanha e Maria de Andrade. How does she relate to Porto-Carreiros? I somehow missed that link. Thanks. AN. Miguel de Castro Henriques <[email protected]> escreveu no dia quarta, 10/04/2019 à(s) 20:53: > Meus caros, > > Pedro Dias Saldanha and Ana Henriques had 7 sons and daugthers ( a fair > and "normal" number for those times. This number may indicate a moderately > wealthy status).Their names were Diogo Dias Saldanha married to Maria > Ferreira, Pascoal Dias Saldanha,Ana Henriques, Maria Henriques,Pedro Dias > Saldanha, Manuel Dias Saldanha married to Maria de Andrade and Beatriz > Gonçalves. > > > Manuel Dias Saldanha (he appears with that full name in a document that > I'll try to retrieve) married to Maria de Andrade is one of my 8th great > grandfathers. The interesting thing in the case of this marriage is that a > descendant by female of slaves (though forros) marries a "menina bem". a > descendant of Noronhas, Câmaras, Andrades, Cairos Ribeiro, Baptista > Spínolas and Porto-Carreiros, Would this be possible if he wasn't , after > all a Saldanha ? (knowing the high level of social selectivism, and the > practice of endogamy. peculiar of those times - the only excuse for a > descendant of a mulata would be the high status of his husband/partner. > That could "whiten" the problem, the problem of a non caucasian or "infect > "race (like jewish) being involved in the equation. > > Interesting (and revealing) thing too is the fact that Diogo Dias > Saldanha marries a Ferreira. She is the daughter of Sinão Nunes and Ana > Ferreira - from the Ferreiras Casta Grande ? We don't know. But bearing the > name Ferreira and knowing that the majority of women of that era (and even > after) were knwon only by their surname) tells loads. > > So my point is: these 2 sons (Diogo and Manuel) of Pedro Dias and Ana > Henriques made "good" marriages. This strogly indicates that though > "conspurcated" by less than third class blood (moorish or black) after all > they were Saldanhas, of the "good" stock. > > Com os melhores cumprimentos aos 2 ilustres membros do clan Nóbrega, > > Miguel de Castro Henriques > > On Sat, 6 Apr 2019 at 00:19, Fundo Salgados <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > In Pedro's record of baptism she is named Concordia Fernandes. However , > in > > 1582 she is called Concordia Martins in her daughter Antonia baptism > > record. In both records she is classified as Baça e forra. I think that > > Clode also calls her Martins. Most probably she was known by those two > > family names. > > > > I am not sure that Diogo assumed the paternity of Pedro. In his record of > > baptism we can read the following sentence: o pai diz ela que era Diogo > > Dias da Serra. (the father, she says, is Diogo Dias). In any part of the > > record it is writen that Diogo recognized being the father. It is only > by > > her statement > > that we knows that Diogo is the father. > > I don't have the name of the priest who baptized Pedro, but his sister > > Antonia was baptized by Melchior Mourato and he wrote: "o pai não se > soube" > > / the father we could not find out who it was. > > > > The descendant of Pedro Dias de Saldanha I am referring had not drooped > the > > Saldanha family name. He was called Antonio Joao Saldanha and he was > > aplying in 1769 (almost 200 hundred years after the baptism of Pedro) to > > Familiar do Santo Oficio. > > > > Regards > > A. Nobrega > > > > > > JOSE FERNANDES <[email protected]> escreveu no dia sexta, > > 5/04/2019 > > à(s) 00:38: > > > > > It is Concordia Fernandes. I have read the baptism record and it > > confirms > > > that she is a slave and that the father was Diogo. In fact, I was very > > > pleased that Diogo assumed that he was the father. At the time it was > > very > > > courageous to do so. I am one of his descendants and proud to be so.I > > also > > > agree that Ana Henriques should be a slave or daughter of a slave. It > > makes > > > sense. It also makes sense, that the descendants of Pedro drop the name > > > Saldanha. I suspect to avoid the connection. Too bad. > > > José Fernandes > > > > > > On Thursday, April 4, 2019, 8:56:01 a.m. EDT, Fundo Salgados < > > > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > Caro Miguel, > > > > > > > > > > > > I found some additional information about Pedro Dias de Saldanha and > his > > > wife in a document of a descendent who contests the following > statement, > > > declaring it to be false. > > > > > > "dizem ser filho de Concórdia Martins, mulata forra, que sua mulher > Ana > > > Henriques fora escrava mourisca de Aires de Ornelas e a qual resgatara > o > > > tal seu marido Pedro Dias". > > > > > > > > > > > > If we are sure from the records that Concórdia Fernandes was baça e > > forra, > > > I am tempted to believe that Ana was escrava mourisca de Aires de > > Ornelas. > > > That would explain the missing information on her in the marriage > record. > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > A. Nobrega > > > > > > Miguel de Castro Henriques via <[email protected]> escreveu no > > dia > > > sexta, 30/10/2015 à(s) 21:46: > > > > > > > Dear A. Nóbrega > > > > > > > > That's interesting, thanks. Indeed confirms my first feeling. > > > > > > > > Dona Maria, wife of Diogo Dias Saldanha, was indeed D. Maria > Catanho., > > > > daughter of António Vieira (Meirinho) and D. Margarida Catanho. > > > > > > > > Diogo Dias father was Dr.Diogo Enes Saldanha, also Ouvidor de > Machico. > > > > "Ouvidor" was a "magistrate", a judge. > > > > > > > > It seems, according to Clode, that he comes from another Digo > Saldanha, > > > who > > > > had lands at Santo da Serra. > > > > > > > > He probably connects wtih the Saldanhas from Portugal, but I don't > know > > > > how. > > > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > > > > On 29 October 2015 at 19:46, Fundo Salgados via < > > > [email protected]> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > I was reading some older posts and the following comment from > Miguel > > > > Castro > > > > > Henriques about Concordia Fernandes caught my attention: > > > > > > > > > > "Perdo Dias Saldanha was a natural son of Diogo Annes Saldanha > > (ouvidor > > > > de > > > > > Machico) and Concórdia Fernandes. (I suppose Concórdia was a black > > > woman, > > > > > or mestiça. But I don't know why I suppose so.)" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The supposition is correct. Concordia is also my ancestor. She is > > > > described > > > > > in her son Pedro Dias de Saldanha baptism record as baça e forra: > > > > > > > > > > Termo do baptismo > > > > > > > > > > "Em os 21 dias do mês de Outubro de 1579, baptizei a Pedro filho de > > > > > Concórdia Fernandes, mulher baça forra; o pai diz ela que era Diogo > > > Dias > > > > da > > > > > Serra. Foram padrinhos Manuel Gomes e madrinha Maria Gonçalves, > > mulher > > > > de > > > > > João Gonçalves do jogo da bola, todos moradores neste lugar." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is a well known place in Camacha called "Achada de Diogo > > Dias". I > > > > > suppose that is why he is called Diogo Dias da "Serra". He was > > married > > > > with > > > > > a Dona Maria and was a wealthy person judging by the sum of 4000 > > > cruzados > > > > > mentioned in his will. > > > > > > > > > > A. Nóbrega > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without > > > the > > > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > > > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the > > > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref > > > Unsubscribe > > > https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/[email protected] > > > Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: > > > https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 > > > Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog > > > RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb > > > community > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref > > > Unsubscribe > > > https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/[email protected] > > > Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: > > > https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 > > > Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog > > > RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb > > > community > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref > > Unsubscribe > > https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/[email protected] > > Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: > > https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 > > Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog > > RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb > > community > > > > _______________________________________________ > > _______________________________________________ > Email preferences: http://bit.ly/rootswebpref > Unsubscribe > https://lists.rootsweb.com/postorius/lists/[email protected] > Privacy Statement: https://ancstry.me/2JWBOdY Terms and Conditions: > https://ancstry.me/2HDBym9 > Rootsweb Blog: http://rootsweb.blog > RootsWeb is funded and supported by Ancestry.com and our loyal RootsWeb > community >

José, The 1636 couple is a possibility, but there are 3 questions that need to be clarified. 1. Ana Surname: We know that Maria’s mother name is Ana Ferreira. The sole marriage we have is of Simões Nunes with Ana Francisca. Ana Francisca parents are Manuel Francisco (from where she gets her surname) and Luzia Glz. Manuel Francisco, homem trabalhador, is son of Francº Pires and Isabel Pires from Barcelos and Luzia Glz is daughter of Francº Glz and Maria Antunes If I got the names right (the priest spelling is not easy to decipher) there is no Ferreira surname present. Perhaps the Ferreira surname is present in an older generation (I still have to analyse Francº Glz and Maria Antunes marriage record). 2. Time gap between marriages. Simão Nunes & Ana Francª married in 1636. The marriage of Ana Francª parents, Manuel Francº e Luzia Glz, is from 1574. How old would Ana Francª be at her wedding ? Would she still be in a reproductive age? 3. Time frame to Maria Ferreira birth Either Maria Ferreira was born, as you said, previously to their parents marriage or she would have born from 1637 to 1639 in order to get married at a very young age. As for Simão Nunes previous marriage, perhaps it was held, as you say, in NS do Calhau. However, as he was a fregues of the Se, there might be some baptism records of the children he had in his first marriage. With the available information on Simao Nunes e Ana Francisca I am not ready to accept or reject their relation with Maria Ferreira. Further research is required to locate relevant birth records that might help us to confirm or reject the hypothesis of their relationship. AN JOSE FERNANDES <[email protected]> escreveu no dia quinta, 11/04/2019 à(s) 01:51: > Alvaro, I did find the copy on Archeevo. The problem here is whether it is > the correct couple and where does Ferreira come from? If you look closely > Maria and Ana's surname is identical. Why is it Ferreira as opposed to > Francisca?Could Simão's first marriage be in Santa Maria do Calhau? his > parents?What is your opinion on the possibility that the 1636 marriage is > the one? I know the time frame is not good but Maria could have been born > before marriage.Thanks for your assistance in this. > José Fernandes > > On Wednesday, April 10, 2019, 3:54:04 p.m. EDT, Fundo Salgados < > [email protected]> wrote: > > José > > Maria Ferreira married Diogo Dias in 29 May, 1651, in Canico in the chapel > of Aires de Ornelas de Vasconcelos. Her parents were Simao Nunes e Ana > Ferreira. > > There is no record of a marriage of Simao Nunes and Ana Ferreira. However, > there is, as you mentioned, a record of a marriage between Simao Nunes and > Ana Francisca in Sé do Funchal in 1636 (Sé, 1636, Lv. 54, f. 112 v.º ). The > name of their parents is written (please see the attached image). > > A. > > JOSE FERNANDES <[email protected]> escreveu no dia quarta, > 10/04/2019 à(s) 04:01: > > > Alvaro,in the second paragraph you refer to a marriage. Which marriage > and > > where is it? also is it Ana Francisca or Ana Ferreira? In Diogo 's > > marriage the last name is written the same way as Maria. The 1636 > marriage > > has no parents.Thanks. > > José Fernandes > > > > On Tuesday, April 9, 2019, 11:42:48 a.m. EDT, Fundo Salgados < > > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > One thing that might indicate a recognition of paternity of Pedro de > > Saldanha by Diogo Dias is the fact that Pedro names his son after his > > father Diogo Dias. It is also interesting to see that some of the > Saldanhas > > (Duarte Saldanha and the conego Teologal João de Saldanha) were > godfathers > > of Diogo children baptisms. > > > > As for Maria Ferreira ancestors, the names of the parents of Simão Nunes > > and Ana Franc.ª are provided in their marriage record : “Simão Nunes, > > viúvo, filho de Simão Nunes, já defunto, e de sua mulher Isabel do > > Vale, também defunta com Ana Francisca, filha de Manuel Francisco, já > > defunto, e de sua mulher Luzia Gonçalves, também defunta, todos > > fregueses desta freguesia”. Manuel Franc.º and Luzia Glz marriage is > from > > 1574 and their parents names is also written. However, I could not find > > reference to the Ferreira family name, thus making more difficult to > > establish a connection. Additionaly Simao and Ana Francª married in 1636, > > so if this was the Ferreira couple Maria would be at most 13/14 years old > > at her marriage in 1651. Since the priest says there all fregueses, I > had a > > look at Sé marriage records between 1636 and 1639 and I could not find > any > > record of this couple. It would also be interesting to look prior to that > > date to see if there was any record of a child born of Simoes Nunes > > previous marriage (there is no marriage record). > > > > I could not also find any reference to Simões and Ana Ferrª in any record > > (baptism, deaths or marriage records) in Caniço, apart from the marriage > of > > Diogo and Maria. Sao Goncalo would be a plausible location, but I had not > > yet the chance to look at this parish birth records. > > > > The majority of my ancestors are from Canico and Camacha so it is > possible > > we share a good number of them. > > > > Regards, > > > > Alvaro > > > > > > > > JOSE FERNANDES <[email protected]> escreveu no dia segunda, > > 8/04/2019 à(s) 02:16: > > > > > No info on Simão Nunes and Ana Ferreira. There is one Simão Nunes > > marrying > > > a Ana Francisca in 1636 in Sé. The time frame is good. Unfortunately no > > > parents are given for this couple.I also descend from António Ferreira > > > married to Madalena Jorge in 1685. They too drop the name at least > their > > > daughter Antónia de Nóbrega carries her maternal grandfather's name. > > > We are Nóbrega Fernandes. I have done a lot of research in Caniço, but > I > > > still have some issues to resolve. Do you also? Perhaps we could > exchange > > > some of our problems.Regards. > > > José Fernandes > > > > > > On Sunday, April 7, 2019, 7:13:49 p.m. EDT, Fundo Salgados < > > > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > That is true. I don't remember of any other record related to slaves, > > > apart > > > from this one, were the name of the father is mentioned. > > > What is interesting about this Ant.º Joao Saldanha is he is Diogo Dias > > > great-grandson. His father - we writes - was Antº Ferrª de Saldanha son > > of > > > Pedro Ferrª Saldanha. Pedro was son of Diogo Dias. I descend from his > > > brother Antº Ferreira who seems to have dropped both Dias and Saldanha > > > names. Do you have any information on Maria Ferreira parents: Simão > Nunes > > > and Ana Ferreira? perhaps Ferreiras de São Gonçalo? > > > Regards > > > Alvaro > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > JOSE FERNANDES <[email protected]> escreveu no dia sábado, > > > 6/04/2019 à(s) 00:40: > > > > > > > A. Nóbrega,from a Nóbrega to a Nóbrega, you are right that Diogo Dias > > da > > > > Serra, mentioned by Concordia Fernandes/Martins does not assume the > > > > paternity, however rarely or never have I seen a slave claim who the > > > father > > > > was. The priest would not dare put that down unless the father, who > > was a > > > > powerful man, agreed to. I could be wrong but in this case Melchior > > > > Mourato, who was the priest, felt comfortable in writing it.My > ancestor > > > is > > > > Diogo Dias who marries Maria Ferreira in 1651, Caniço. The family > drops > > > the > > > > name here and takes Ferreira. So I guess that in our case we drop > both > > > > names.Thanks for the info. > > > > José Fernandes > > > > > > > > On Friday, April 5, 2019, 7:19:45 p.m. EDT, Fundo Salgados < > > > > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > In Pedro's record of baptism she is named Concordia Fernandes. > > However , > > > > in > > > > 1582 she is called Concordia Martins in her daughter Antonia baptism > > > > record. In both records she is classified as Baça e forra. I think > that > > > > Clode also calls her Martins. Most probably she was known by those > two > > > > family names. > > > > > > > > I am not sure that Diogo assumed the paternity of Pedro. In his > record > > of > > > > baptism we can read the following sentence: o pai diz ela que era > Diogo > > > > Dias da Serra. (the father, she says, is Diogo Dias). In any part of > > the > > > > record it is writen that Diogo recognized being the father. It is > only > > > by > > > > her statement > > > > that we knows that Diogo is the father. > > > > I don't have the name of the priest who baptized Pedro, but his > sister > > > > Antonia was baptized by Melchior Mourato and he wrote: "o pai não se > > > soube" > > > > / the father we could not find out who it was. > > > > > > > > The descendant of Pedro Dias de Saldanha I am referring had not > drooped > > > the > > > > Saldanha family name. He was called Antonio Joao Saldanha and he was > > > > aplying in 1769 (almost 200 hundred years after the baptism of Pedro) > > to > > > > Familiar do Santo Oficio. > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > A. Nobrega > > > > > > > > > > > > JOSE FERNANDES <[email protected]> escreveu no dia sexta, > > > > 5/04/2019 > > > > à(s) 00:38: > > > > > > > > > It is Concordia Fernandes. I have read the baptism record and it > > > > confirms > > > > > that she is a slave and that the father was Diogo. In fact, I was > > very > > > > > pleased that Diogo assumed that he was the father. At the time it > was > > > > very > > > > > courageous to do so. I am one of his descendants and proud to be > so.I > > > > also > > > > > agree that Ana Henriques should be a slave or daughter of a slave. > It > > > > makes > > > > > sense. It also makes sense, that the descendants of Pedro drop the > > name > > > > > Saldanha. I suspect to avoid the connection. Too bad. > > > > > José Fernandes > > > > > > > > > > On Thursday, April 4, 2019, 8:56:01 a.m. EDT, Fundo Salgados < > > > > > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Caro Miguel, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I found some additional information about Pedro Dias de Saldanha > and > > > his > > > > > wife in a document of a descendent who contests the following > > > statement, > > > > > declaring it to be false. > > > > > > > > > > "dizem ser filho de Concórdia Martins, mulata forra, que sua > mulher > > > Ana > > > > > Henriques fora escrava mourisca de Aires de Ornelas e a qual > > resgatara > > > o > > > > > tal seu marido Pedro Dias". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If we are sure from the records that Concórdia Fernandes was baça e > > > > forra, > > > > > I am tempted to believe that Ana was escrava mourisca de Aires de > > > > Ornelas. > > > > > That would explain the missing information on her in the marriage > > > record. > > > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > > > A. Nobrega > > > > > > > > > > Miguel de Castro Henriques via <[email protected]> escreveu > > no > > > > dia > > > > > sexta, 30/10/2015 à(s) 21:46: > > > > > > > > > > > Dear A. Nóbrega > > > > > > > > > > > > That's interesting, thanks. Indeed confirms my first feeling. > > > > > > > > > > > > Dona Maria, wife of Diogo Dias Saldanha, was indeed D. Maria > > > Catanho., > > > > > > daughter of António Vieira (Meirinho) and D. Margarida Catanho. > > > > > > > > > > > > Diogo Dias father was Dr.Diogo Enes Saldanha, also Ouvidor de > > > Machico. > > > > > > "Ouvidor" was a "magistrate", a judge. > > > > > > > > > > > > It seems, according to Clode, that he comes from another Digo > > > Saldanha, > > > > > who > > > > > > had lands at Santo da Serra. > > > > > > > > > > > > He probably connects wtih the Saldanhas from Portugal, but I > don't > > > know > > > > > > how. > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > > > > > > > > On 29 October 2015 at 19:46, Fundo Salgados via < > > > > > [email protected]> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > I was reading some older posts and the following comment from > > > Miguel > > > > > > Castro > > > > > > > Henriques about Concordia Fernandes caught my attention: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Perdo Dias Saldanha was a natural son of Diogo Annes Saldanha > > > > (ouvidor > > > > > > de > > > > > > > Machico) and Concórdia Fernandes. (I suppose Concórdia was a > > black > > > > > woman, > > > > > > > or mestiça. But I don't know why I suppose so.)" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The supposition is correct. Concordia is also my ancestor. She > is > > > > > > described > > > > > > > in her son Pedro Dias de Saldanha baptism record as baça e > forra: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Termo do baptismo > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Em os 21 dias do mês de Outubro de 1579, baptizei a Pedro > filho > > de > > > > > > > Concórdia Fernandes, mulher baça forra; o pai diz ela que era > > Diogo > > > > > Dias > > > > > > da > > > > > > > Serra. Foram padrinhos Manuel Gomes e madrinha Maria Gonçalves, > > > > mulher > > > > > > de > > > > > > > João Gonçalves do jogo da bola, todos moradores neste lugar." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is a well known place in Camacha called "Achada de Diogo > > > > Dias". I > > > > > > > suppose that is why he is called Diogo Dias da "Serra". He was > > > > married > > > > > > with > > > > > > > a Dona Maria and was a wealthy person judging by the sum of > 4000 > > > > > cruzados > > > > > > > mentioned in his will. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A. 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Maybe these attachments can help you. Bob Pitta > On April 11, 2019 at 12:01 PM [email protected] wrote: > > > Miguel and Jose, > I have Ferreira in my line, however, they are in Canhas at the moment, I have not been able to find the parents of Andre Ferreira, born ~1677, his wife was Isabel Rodrigues Pita, born ~1682. Do either of these names coincide with information you have? > Lou > > -----Original Message----- > From: JOSE FERNANDES <[email protected]> > Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2019 8:58 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Re: Concórdia Fernandes > > Miguel,it is always nice to hear from you, also a noble member of the Nóbrega clan. In fact, I think your branch did a lot better.In this case, I don't think Ferreira brings us to Gonçalo Aires. We are not sure where the Ferreira in Maria comes from.Trust all is well in the Kingdom of Alentejo.By the way, Porto Carreiro is also my ancestor. Why is he so important? > José Fernandes > > On Wednesday, April 10, 2019, 8:51:28 p.m. EDT, JOSE FERNANDES <[email protected]> wrote: > > Alvaro, I did find the copy on Archeevo. The problem here is whether it is the correct couple and where does Ferreira come from? If you look closely Maria and Ana's surname is identical. Why is it Ferreira as opposed to Francisca?Could Simão's first marriage be in Santa Maria do Calhau? his parents?What is your opinion on the possibility that the 1636 marriage is the one? I know the time frame is not good but Maria could have been born before marriage.Thanks for your assistance in this. > José Fernandes > > On Wednesday, April 10, 2019, 3:54:04 p.m. EDT, Fundo Salgados <[email protected]> wrote: > > José > > Maria Ferreira married Diogo Dias in 29 May, 1651, in Canico in the chapel of Aires de Ornelas de Vasconcelos. Her parents were Simao Nunes e Ana Ferreira. > > There is no record of a marriage of Simao Nunes and Ana Ferreira. However, there is, as you mentioned, a record of a marriage between Simao Nunes and Ana Francisca in Sé do Funchal in 1636 (Sé, 1636, Lv. 54, f. 112 v.º ). The name of their parents is written (please see the attached image). > > A. > > JOSE FERNANDES <[email protected]> escreveu no dia quarta, > 10/04/2019 à(s) 04:01: > > > Alvaro,in the second paragraph you refer to a marriage. Which marriage > > and where is it? also is it Ana Francisca or Ana Ferreira? In Diogo > > 's marriage the last name is written the same way as Maria. The 1636 > > marriage has no parents.Thanks. > > José Fernandes > > > > On Tuesday, April 9, 2019, 11:42:48 a.m. EDT, Fundo Salgados < > >[email protected]> wrote: > > > > One thing that might indicate a recognition of paternity of Pedro de > >Saldanha by Diogo Dias is the fact that Pedro names his son after his > >father Diogo Dias. It is also interesting to see that some of the > >Saldanhas (Duarte Saldanha and the conego Teologal João de Saldanha) > >were godfathers of Diogo children baptisms. > > > > As for Maria Ferreira ancestors, the names of the parents of Simão > > Nunes and Ana Franc.ª are provided in their marriage record : “Simão > > Nunes, viúvo, filho de Simão Nunes, já defunto, e de sua mulher > > Isabel do Vale, também defunta com Ana Francisca, filha de Manuel > > Francisco, já defunto, e de sua mulher Luzia Gonçalves, também > > defunta, todos fregueses desta freguesia”. Manuel Franc.º and Luzia > > Glz marriage is from > > 1574 and their parents names is also written. However, I could not > > find reference to the Ferreira family name, thus making more difficult > > to establish a connection. Additionaly Simao and Ana Francª married in > > 1636, so if this was the Ferreira couple Maria would be at most 13/14 > > years old at her marriage in 1651. Since the priest says there all > > fregueses, I had a look at Sé marriage records between 1636 and 1639 > > and I could not find any record of this couple. It would also be > > interesting to look prior to that date to see if there was any record > > of a child born of Simoes Nunes previous marriage (there is no marriage record). > > > > I could not also find any reference to Simões and Ana Ferrª in any > > record (baptism, deaths or marriage records) in Caniço, apart from the > > marriage of Diogo and Maria. Sao Goncalo would be a plausible > > location, but I had not yet the chance to look at this parish birth records. > > > > The majority of my ancestors are from Canico and Camacha so it is > > possible we share a good number of them. > > > > Regards, > > > > Alvaro > > > > > > > > JOSE FERNANDES <[email protected]> escreveu no dia segunda, > > 8/04/2019 à(s) 02:16: > > > > > No info on Simão Nunes and Ana Ferreira. There is one Simão Nunes > > marrying > > > a Ana Francisca in 1636 in Sé. The time frame is good. Unfortunately > > > no parents are given for this couple.I also descend from António > > > Ferreira married to Madalena Jorge in 1685. They too drop the name > > > at least their daughter Antónia de Nóbrega carries her maternal grandfather's name. > > > We are Nóbrega Fernandes. I have done a lot of research in Caniço, > > > but I still have some issues to resolve. Do you also? Perhaps we > > > could exchange some of our problems.Regards. > > > José Fernandes > > > > > > On Sunday, April 7, 2019, 7:13:49 p.m. EDT, Fundo Salgados < > > >[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > That is true. I don't remember of any other record related to > > >slaves, apart from this one, were the name of the father is > > >mentioned. > > > What is interesting about this Ant.º Joao Saldanha is he is Diogo > > >Dias great-grandson. His father - we writes - was Antº Ferrª de > > >Saldanha son > > of > > > Pedro Ferrª Saldanha. Pedro was son of Diogo Dias. I descend from > > > his brother Antº Ferreira who seems to have dropped both Dias and > > > Saldanha names. Do you have any information on Maria Ferreira > > > parents: Simão Nunes and Ana Ferreira? perhaps Ferreiras de São Gonçalo? > > > Regards > > > Alvaro > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > JOSE FERNANDES <[email protected]> escreveu no dia sábado, > > > 6/04/2019 à(s) 00:40: > > > > > > > A. Nóbrega,from a Nóbrega to a Nóbrega, you are right that Diogo > > > > Dias > > da > > > > Serra, mentioned by Concordia Fernandes/Martins does not assume > > > > the paternity, however rarely or never have I seen a slave claim > > > > who the > > > father > > > > was. The priest would not dare put that down unless the father, > > > > who > > was a > > > > powerful man, agreed to. I could be wrong but in this case > > > > Melchior Mourato, who was the priest, felt comfortable in writing > > > > it.My ancestor > > > is > > > > Diogo Dias who marries Maria Ferreira in 1651, Caniço. The family > > > > drops > > > the > > > > name here and takes Ferreira. So I guess that in our case we drop > > > > both names.Thanks for the info. > > > > José Fernandes > > > > > > > > On Friday, April 5, 2019, 7:19:45 p.m. EDT, Fundo Salgados < > > > >[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > In Pedro's record of baptism she is named Concordia Fernandes. > > However , > > > > in > > > > 1582 she is called Concordia Martins in her daughter Antonia > > > > baptism record. In both records she is classified as Baça e forra. > > > > I think that Clode also calls her Martins. Most probably she was > > > > known by those two family names. > > > > > > > > I am not sure that Diogo assumed the paternity of Pedro. In his > > > > record > > of > > > > baptism we can read the following sentence: o pai diz ela que era > > > > Diogo Dias da Serra. (the father, she says, is Diogo Dias). In any > > > > part of > > the > > > > record it is writen that Diogo recognized being the father. It is > > > > only > > > by > > > > her statement > > > > that we knows that Diogo is the father. > > > > I don't have the name of the priest who baptized Pedro, but his > > > > sister Antonia was baptized by Melchior Mourato and he wrote: "o > > > > pai não se > > > soube" > > > > / the father we could not find out who it was. > > > > > > > > The descendant of Pedro Dias de Saldanha I am referring had not > > > > drooped > > > the > > > > Saldanha family name. He was called Antonio Joao Saldanha and he > > > > was aplying in 1769 (almost 200 hundred years after the baptism of > > > > Pedro) > > to > > > > Familiar do Santo Oficio. > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > A. Nobrega > > > > > > > > > > > > JOSE FERNANDES <[email protected]> escreveu no dia sexta, > > > > 5/04/2019 > > > > à(s) 00:38: > > > > > > > > > It is Concordia Fernandes. I have read the baptism record and > > > > > it > > > > confirms > > > > > that she is a slave and that the father was Diogo. In fact, I > > > > > was > > very > > > > > pleased that Diogo assumed that he was the father. At the time > > > > > it was > > > > very > > > > > courageous to do so. I am one of his descendants and proud to be > > > > > so.I > > > > also > > > > > agree that Ana Henriques should be a slave or daughter of a > > > > > slave. It > > > > makes > > > > > sense. It also makes sense, that the descendants of Pedro drop > > > > > the > > name > > > > > Saldanha. I suspect to avoid the connection. Too bad. > > > > > José Fernandes > > > > > > > > > > On Thursday, April 4, 2019, 8:56:01 a.m. EDT, Fundo Salgados > > > > >< [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Caro Miguel, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I found some additional information about Pedro Dias de Saldanha > > > > > and > > > his > > > > > wife in a document of a descendent who contests the following > > > statement, > > > > > declaring it to be false. > > > > > > > > > > "dizem ser filho de Concórdia Martins, mulata forra, que sua > > > > >mulher > > > Ana > > > > > Henriques fora escrava mourisca de Aires de Ornelas e a qual > > resgatara > > > o > > > > > tal seu marido Pedro Dias". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If we are sure from the records that Concórdia Fernandes was > > > > > baça e > > > > forra, > > > > > I am tempted to believe that Ana was escrava mourisca de Aires > > > > > de > > > > Ornelas. > > > > > That would explain the missing information on her in the > > > > > marriage > > > record. > > > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > > > A. Nobrega > > > > > > > > > > Miguel de Castro Henriques via <[email protected]> > > > > > escreveu > > no > > > > dia > > > > > sexta, 30/10/2015 à(s) 21:46: > > > > > > > > > > > Dear A. Nóbrega > > > > > > > > > > > > That's interesting, thanks. Indeed confirms my first feeling. > > > > > > > > > > > > Dona Maria, wife of Diogo Dias Saldanha, was indeed D. Maria > > > Catanho., > > > > > > daughter of António Vieira (Meirinho) and D. Margarida Catanho. > > > > > > > > > > > > Diogo Dias father was Dr.Diogo Enes Saldanha, also Ouvidor de > > > Machico. > > > > > > "Ouvidor" was a "magistrate", a judge. > > > > > > > > > > > > It seems, according to Clode, that he comes from another Digo > > > Saldanha, > > > > > who > > > > > > had lands at Santo da Serra. > > > > > > > > > > > > He probably connects wtih the Saldanhas from Portugal, but I > > > > > > don't > > > know > > > > > > how. > > > > > > > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > > > > > > > > On 29 October 2015 at 19:46, Fundo Salgados via < > > > > > [email protected]> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > I was reading some older posts and the following comment > > > > > > > from > > > Miguel > > > > > > Castro > > > > > > > Henriques about Concordia Fernandes caught my attention: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Perdo Dias Saldanha was a natural son of Diogo Annes > > > > > > > Saldanha > > > > (ouvidor > > > > > > de > > > > > > > Machico) and Concórdia Fernandes. (I suppose Concórdia was a > > black > > > > > woman, > > > > > > > or mestiça. But I don't know why I suppose so.)" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The supposition is correct. Concordia is also my ancestor. > > > > > > > She is > > > > > > described > > > > > > > in her son Pedro Dias de Saldanha baptism record as baça e forra: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Termo do baptismo > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Em os 21 dias do mês de Outubro de 1579, baptizei a Pedro > > > > > > > filho > > de > > > > > > > Concórdia Fernandes, mulher baça forra; o pai diz ela que > > > > > > > era > > Diogo > > > > > Dias > > > > > > da > > > > > > > Serra. Foram padrinhos Manuel Gomes e madrinha Maria > > > > > > > Gonçalves, > > > > mulher > > > > > > de > > > > > > > João Gonçalves do jogo da bola, todos moradores neste lugar." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is a well known place in Camacha called "Achada de > > > > > > > Diogo > > > > Dias". I > > > > > > > suppose that is why he is called Diogo Dias da "Serra". He > > > > > > > was > > > > married > > > > > > with > > > > > > > a Dona Maria and was a wealthy person judging by the sum of > > > > > > > 4000 > > > > > cruzados > > > > > > > mentioned in his will. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A. 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Miguel and Jose, I have Ferreira in my line, however, they are in Canhas at the moment, I have not been able to find the parents of Andre Ferreira, born ~1677, his wife was Isabel Rodrigues Pita, born ~1682. Do either of these names coincide with information you have? Lou -----Original Message----- From: JOSE FERNANDES <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, April 10, 2019 8:58 PM To: [email protected] Subject: [PT-MADEIRA] Re: Concórdia Fernandes Miguel,it is always nice to hear from you, also a noble member of the Nóbrega clan. In fact, I think your branch did a lot better.In this case, I don't think Ferreira brings us to Gonçalo Aires. We are not sure where the Ferreira in Maria comes from.Trust all is well in the Kingdom of Alentejo.By the way, Porto Carreiro is also my ancestor. Why is he so important? José Fernandes On Wednesday, April 10, 2019, 8:51:28 p.m. EDT, JOSE FERNANDES <[email protected]> wrote: Alvaro, I did find the copy on Archeevo. The problem here is whether it is the correct couple and where does Ferreira come from? If you look closely Maria and Ana's surname is identical. Why is it Ferreira as opposed to Francisca?Could Simão's first marriage be in Santa Maria do Calhau? his parents?What is your opinion on the possibility that the 1636 marriage is the one? I know the time frame is not good but Maria could have been born before marriage.Thanks for your assistance in this. José Fernandes On Wednesday, April 10, 2019, 3:54:04 p.m. EDT, Fundo Salgados <[email protected]> wrote: José Maria Ferreira married Diogo Dias in 29 May, 1651, in Canico in the chapel of Aires de Ornelas de Vasconcelos. Her parents were Simao Nunes e Ana Ferreira. There is no record of a marriage of Simao Nunes and Ana Ferreira. However, there is, as you mentioned, a record of a marriage between Simao Nunes and Ana Francisca in Sé do Funchal in 1636 (Sé, 1636, Lv. 54, f. 112 v.º ). The name of their parents is written (please see the attached image). A. JOSE FERNANDES <[email protected]> escreveu no dia quarta, 10/04/2019 à(s) 04:01: > Alvaro,in the second paragraph you refer to a marriage. Which marriage > and where is it? also is it Ana Francisca or Ana Ferreira? In Diogo > 's marriage the last name is written the same way as Maria. The 1636 > marriage has no parents.Thanks. > José Fernandes > > On Tuesday, April 9, 2019, 11:42:48 a.m. EDT, Fundo Salgados < >[email protected]> wrote: > > One thing that might indicate a recognition of paternity of Pedro de >Saldanha by Diogo Dias is the fact that Pedro names his son after his >father Diogo Dias. It is also interesting to see that some of the >Saldanhas (Duarte Saldanha and the conego Teologal João de Saldanha) >were godfathers of Diogo children baptisms. > > As for Maria Ferreira ancestors, the names of the parents of Simão > Nunes and Ana Franc.ª are provided in their marriage record : “Simão > Nunes, viúvo, filho de Simão Nunes, já defunto, e de sua mulher > Isabel do Vale, também defunta com Ana Francisca, filha de Manuel > Francisco, já defunto, e de sua mulher Luzia Gonçalves, também > defunta, todos fregueses desta freguesia”. Manuel Franc.º and Luzia > Glz marriage is from > 1574 and their parents names is also written. However, I could not > find reference to the Ferreira family name, thus making more difficult > to establish a connection. Additionaly Simao and Ana Francª married in > 1636, so if this was the Ferreira couple Maria would be at most 13/14 > years old at her marriage in 1651. Since the priest says there all > fregueses, I had a look at Sé marriage records between 1636 and 1639 > and I could not find any record of this couple. It would also be > interesting to look prior to that date to see if there was any record > of a child born of Simoes Nunes previous marriage (there is no marriage record). > > I could not also find any reference to Simões and Ana Ferrª in any > record (baptism, deaths or marriage records) in Caniço, apart from the > marriage of Diogo and Maria. Sao Goncalo would be a plausible > location, but I had not yet the chance to look at this parish birth records. > > The majority of my ancestors are from Canico and Camacha so it is > possible we share a good number of them. > > Regards, > > Alvaro > > > > JOSE FERNANDES <[email protected]> escreveu no dia segunda, > 8/04/2019 à(s) 02:16: > > > No info on Simão Nunes and Ana Ferreira. There is one Simão Nunes > marrying > > a Ana Francisca in 1636 in Sé. The time frame is good. Unfortunately > > no parents are given for this couple.I also descend from António > > Ferreira married to Madalena Jorge in 1685. They too drop the name > > at least their daughter Antónia de Nóbrega carries her maternal grandfather's name. > > We are Nóbrega Fernandes. I have done a lot of research in Caniço, > > but I still have some issues to resolve. Do you also? Perhaps we > > could exchange some of our problems.Regards. > > José Fernandes > > > > On Sunday, April 7, 2019, 7:13:49 p.m. EDT, Fundo Salgados < > >[email protected]> wrote: > > > > That is true. I don't remember of any other record related to > >slaves, apart from this one, were the name of the father is > >mentioned. > > What is interesting about this Ant.º Joao Saldanha is he is Diogo > >Dias great-grandson. His father - we writes - was Antº Ferrª de > >Saldanha son > of > > Pedro Ferrª Saldanha. Pedro was son of Diogo Dias. I descend from > > his brother Antº Ferreira who seems to have dropped both Dias and > > Saldanha names. Do you have any information on Maria Ferreira > > parents: Simão Nunes and Ana Ferreira? perhaps Ferreiras de São Gonçalo? > > Regards > > Alvaro > > > > > > > > > > JOSE FERNANDES <[email protected]> escreveu no dia sábado, > > 6/04/2019 à(s) 00:40: > > > > > A. Nóbrega,from a Nóbrega to a Nóbrega, you are right that Diogo > > > Dias > da > > > Serra, mentioned by Concordia Fernandes/Martins does not assume > > > the paternity, however rarely or never have I seen a slave claim > > > who the > > father > > > was. The priest would not dare put that down unless the father, > > > who > was a > > > powerful man, agreed to. I could be wrong but in this case > > > Melchior Mourato, who was the priest, felt comfortable in writing > > > it.My ancestor > > is > > > Diogo Dias who marries Maria Ferreira in 1651, Caniço. The family > > > drops > > the > > > name here and takes Ferreira. So I guess that in our case we drop > > > both names.Thanks for the info. > > > José Fernandes > > > > > > On Friday, April 5, 2019, 7:19:45 p.m. EDT, Fundo Salgados < > > >[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > In Pedro's record of baptism she is named Concordia Fernandes. > However , > > > in > > > 1582 she is called Concordia Martins in her daughter Antonia > > > baptism record. In both records she is classified as Baça e forra. > > > I think that Clode also calls her Martins. Most probably she was > > > known by those two family names. > > > > > > I am not sure that Diogo assumed the paternity of Pedro. In his > > > record > of > > > baptism we can read the following sentence: o pai diz ela que era > > > Diogo Dias da Serra. (the father, she says, is Diogo Dias). In any > > > part of > the > > > record it is writen that Diogo recognized being the father. It is > > > only > > by > > > her statement > > > that we knows that Diogo is the father. > > > I don't have the name of the priest who baptized Pedro, but his > > > sister Antonia was baptized by Melchior Mourato and he wrote: "o > > > pai não se > > soube" > > > / the father we could not find out who it was. > > > > > > The descendant of Pedro Dias de Saldanha I am referring had not > > > drooped > > the > > > Saldanha family name. He was called Antonio Joao Saldanha and he > > > was aplying in 1769 (almost 200 hundred years after the baptism of > > > Pedro) > to > > > Familiar do Santo Oficio. > > > > > > Regards > > > A. Nobrega > > > > > > > > > JOSE FERNANDES <[email protected]> escreveu no dia sexta, > > > 5/04/2019 > > > à(s) 00:38: > > > > > > > It is Concordia Fernandes. I have read the baptism record and > > > > it > > > confirms > > > > that she is a slave and that the father was Diogo. In fact, I > > > > was > very > > > > pleased that Diogo assumed that he was the father. At the time > > > > it was > > > very > > > > courageous to do so. I am one of his descendants and proud to be > > > > so.I > > > also > > > > agree that Ana Henriques should be a slave or daughter of a > > > > slave. It > > > makes > > > > sense. It also makes sense, that the descendants of Pedro drop > > > > the > name > > > > Saldanha. I suspect to avoid the connection. Too bad. > > > > José Fernandes > > > > > > > > On Thursday, April 4, 2019, 8:56:01 a.m. EDT, Fundo Salgados > > > >< [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > Caro Miguel, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I found some additional information about Pedro Dias de Saldanha > > > > and > > his > > > > wife in a document of a descendent who contests the following > > statement, > > > > declaring it to be false. > > > > > > > > "dizem ser filho de Concórdia Martins, mulata forra, que sua > > > >mulher > > Ana > > > > Henriques fora escrava mourisca de Aires de Ornelas e a qual > resgatara > > o > > > > tal seu marido Pedro Dias". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If we are sure from the records that Concórdia Fernandes was > > > > baça e > > > forra, > > > > I am tempted to believe that Ana was escrava mourisca de Aires > > > > de > > > Ornelas. > > > > That would explain the missing information on her in the > > > > marriage > > record. > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > > > > > A. Nobrega > > > > > > > > Miguel de Castro Henriques via <[email protected]> > > > > escreveu > no > > > dia > > > > sexta, 30/10/2015 à(s) 21:46: > > > > > > > > > Dear A. Nóbrega > > > > > > > > > > That's interesting, thanks. Indeed confirms my first feeling. > > > > > > > > > > Dona Maria, wife of Diogo Dias Saldanha, was indeed D. Maria > > Catanho., > > > > > daughter of António Vieira (Meirinho) and D. Margarida Catanho. > > > > > > > > > > Diogo Dias father was Dr.Diogo Enes Saldanha, also Ouvidor de > > Machico. > > > > > "Ouvidor" was a "magistrate", a judge. > > > > > > > > > > It seems, according to Clode, that he comes from another Digo > > Saldanha, > > > > who > > > > > had lands at Santo da Serra. > > > > > > > > > > He probably connects wtih the Saldanhas from Portugal, but I > > > > > don't > > know > > > > > how. > > > > > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > > > > > > On 29 October 2015 at 19:46, Fundo Salgados via < > > > > [email protected]> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > I was reading some older posts and the following comment > > > > > > from > > Miguel > > > > > Castro > > > > > > Henriques about Concordia Fernandes caught my attention: > > > > > > > > > > > > "Perdo Dias Saldanha was a natural son of Diogo Annes > > > > > > Saldanha > > > (ouvidor > > > > > de > > > > > > Machico) and Concórdia Fernandes. (I suppose Concórdia was a > black > > > > woman, > > > > > > or mestiça. But I don't know why I suppose so.)" > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The supposition is correct. Concordia is also my ancestor. > > > > > > She is > > > > > described > > > > > > in her son Pedro Dias de Saldanha baptism record as baça e forra: > > > > > > > > > > > > Termo do baptismo > > > > > > > > > > > > "Em os 21 dias do mês de Outubro de 1579, baptizei a Pedro > > > > > > filho > de > > > > > > Concórdia Fernandes, mulher baça forra; o pai diz ela que > > > > > > era > Diogo > > > > Dias > > > > > da > > > > > > Serra. Foram padrinhos Manuel Gomes e madrinha Maria > > > > > > Gonçalves, > > > mulher > > > > > de > > > > > > João Gonçalves do jogo da bola, todos moradores neste lugar." > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There is a well known place in Camacha called "Achada de > > > > > > Diogo > > > Dias". I > > > > > > suppose that is why he is called Diogo Dias da "Serra". He > > > > > > was > > > married > > > > > with > > > > > > a Dona Maria and was a wealthy person judging by the sum of > > > > > > 4000 > > > > cruzados > > > > > > mentioned in his will. > > > > > > > > > > > > A. 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No “Registo Genealógico das famílias que passaram à Madeira”, que o genealogista e investigador Luiz Peter Clode publicou em 1950 e constituiu uma importante obra de referência para o estudo das famílias daquela ilha, não existe qualquer referência ao apelido Aveiro. E no entanto, esta família - provavelmente originária dessa cidade - está radicada naquela ilha há, pelo menos, 400 anos, mantendo o uso continuado do apelido com a particularidade, pouco comum em Portugal, de o usar apenas precedido de um nome próprio, sem transmitir aos filhos qualquer “composição” com os apelidos dos cônjuges. Só mesmo no final do século XX foi quebrado esse costume pelo ramo da família que traria o apelido para as luzes da ribalta. No nosso imaginário colectivo não existe a memória de alguém deste apelido que *"por obras valerosas"* se tenha da lei da morte libertado. Só mesmo o surgimento desse fenómeno galáctico que dá pelo nome de Cristiano Ronaldo dos Santos Aveiro trouxe notoriedade ao apelido da família de quem hoje todos conhecemos os nomes. É mais uma das suas muitas façanhas a juntar a tantas outras que a imprensa desportiva contabiliza em records. Sabe quem, com maior ou menor profundidade, estuda as genealogias da ilha, como os apelidos ali se repetem e são, frequentemente, os mesmos: Telo, Menezes, Perestrelo, Lomelino, Freitas, Camara, Drumond, Escórcio, Vasconcelos. É o resultado evidente e inevitável duma endogamia que não surpreende num espaço delimitado, rodeado de mar por todos os lados. Casam todos entre todos. E são sempre os mesmos, salvo o episódico desembarque de algum forasteiro que aporte gotas de sangue novo ao caldo genético dominante daquelas paragens. Também estes muitos Aveiros que compõem a frondosa árvore que a nossa investigação veio revelar, se ligaram entre si e também com todas as famílias que atrás referimos. E assim sendo e sem surpresa, facilmente se conclui que o actual grande herói português de relevo mundial, *Cristiano Ronaldo* <https://geneall.net/pt/nome/628328/cristiano-ronaldo/>, é parente de todos na ilha da Madeira - como todos o são entre si - e é também por isso descendente de todos os primeiros povoadores que ali chegaram a partir de 1420 e, entre eles, da “casta grande” da ilha. A sua genealogia, que investigámos e está ainda em desenvolvimento, revela a sua ascendência até onde conseguimos chegar através dos registos paroquiais e inclui as cinco bolas, que são, em número, exactamente as mesmas que, entre 2008 e 2017, têm premiado a sua fantástica e incomparável carreira desportiva de que todos, justificadamente, nos orgulhamos. 16 Agosto 2018