Sorry. I thought that you were trying to begin a discussion ion the Theology of baptism. I suspect that in the early 1800 Presbyterian infants were baptised. I also suspect that the age of Baptist children getting baptised would have been early teens, but I have absolutely no basis for that Edward > -----Original Message----- > From: presbyterian-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:presbyterian- > bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Davis, James R CIV OSD DMEA > Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 3:54 PM > To: presbyterian@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [PRESBYTERIAN] age of christening question > > Thanks Edward, > A great answer, as always. > However I was just trying to narrow into the age of baptism for > Presbyterians expected for most people during various centuries. If > infant baptism then as an infant. If believer baptism then probably age > 6 to 15 or say age 10. If married then maybe age 20. I suspect the > original question was asked in an attempt to use the christening/baptism > date and the customs of the denomination to guess at a birth date. > Peace, > Jim > > -----Original Message----- > From: presbyterian-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:presbyterian-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Edward Andrews > Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 8:40 AM > To: presbyterian@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [PRESBYTERIAN] age of christening question > > By definition Presbyterians are paedobaptists. > > What your particular theological ideas on the topic of baptism are can > well be accommodated in some other site. Here we are interested the > specimen of Presbyterianism and the genealogy involved. > > The Westminster Confession (pretty well the basis of English Speaking > Presbyterianism and its derivatives says) > > CHAP. XXVIII. - Of Baptism. > I. Baptism is a sacrament of the New Testament, ordained by Jesus > Christ,(Matt. 28:19) not only for the solemn admission of the party > baptized into the visible church;(1 Cor. 12:13) but also, to be unto him > a sign and seal of the covenant of grace,(Rom. 4:11, Col. 2:11,12) of > his ingrafting into Christ,(Gal. 3:27, Rom. 6:5) of regeneration,(Tit. > 3:5) of remission of sins,(Mark 1:4) and of his giving up unto God, > through Jesus Christ, to walk in newness of life: (Rom. 6:3,4) which > sacrament is, by Christ's own appointment, to be continued in his church > until the end of the world.(Matt. > 28:19,20) > II. The outward element to be used in this sacrament is water, wherewith > the party is to be baptized, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, > and of the Holy Ghost, by a minister of the gospel, lawfully called > thereunto.(Matt. 3:11, John 1:33, Matt. 28:19,20) III. Dipping of the > person into the water is not necessary; but Baptism is rightly > administered by pouring, or sprinkling water upon the person. (Heb. > 9:10,19,20,21,22, Acts 16:33, Mark 7:4) > IV. Not only those that do actually profess faith in and obedience unto > Christ, (Mark 26:15,16, Acts 8:37,38) but also the infants of one, or > both, believing parents, are to be baptized.(Gen 17:7,9, Gal. 3:9,14, > Col. > 2:11,12, Acts 2:38,39, Rom. 4:11,12, 1 Cor. 7:14, Matt. 28:19, Mark > 10:13,14,15,16, Luke 18:15) V. Although it be a great sin to contemn or > neglect this ordinance, (Luke 7:30, Exod. 4:24,25,26) yet grace and > salvation are not so inseparably annexed unto it, as that no person can > be regenerated, or saved, without it; (Rom. 4:11, Acts > 10:2,4,22,31,45,47) or, that all that are baptized are undoubtedly > regenerated.(Acts 7:13,23) VI. > The efficacy of Baptism is not tied to that moment of time wherein it is > administered;(John 3:5,8) yet, notwithstanding, by the right use of this > ordinance, the grace promised is not only offered, but really exhibited, > and conferred, by the Holy Ghost, to such (whether of age or infants) as > that grace belongeth unto, according to the counsel of God's own will, > in his appointed time.(Gal. 3:27, Tit. 3:5, Eph. 5:26, Acts 2:38,41) > VII. The sacrament of Baptism is but once to be administered unto any > person.(Tit. > 3:5) > > The Directory of Public Worship says > The child to be baptized after notice given to the minister the day > before, is to be presented by the father, or (in case of his necessary > absence) by some Christian friend in his place, professing his earnest > desire that the child may be baptized. > Before baptism, the minister is to use some words of instruction, > touching the institution, nature, use, and ends of this sacrament, > shewing, "That it is instituted by our Lord Jesus Christ: That it is a > seal of the covenant of grace, of our ingrafting into Christ, and of our > union with him, of remission of sins, regeneration, adoption, and life > eternal: That the water, in baptism, representeth and signifieth both > the blood of Christ, which taketh away all guilt of sin, original and > actual; and the sanctifying virtue of the Spirit of Christ against the > dominion of sin, and the corruption of our sinful nature: That > baptizing, or sprinkling and washing with water, signifieth the > cleansing from sin by the blood and for the merit of Christ, together > with the mortification of sin, and rising from sin to newness of life, > by virtue of the death and resurrection of Christ: That the promise is > made to believers and their seed; and that the seed and posterity of the > faithful, born within the church, have, by their birth, interest in the > covenant, and right to the seal of it, and to the outward privileges of > the church, under the gospel, no less than the children of Abraham in > the time of the Old Testament; the covenant of grace, for substance, > being the same; and the grace of God, and the consolation of believers, > more plentiful than before: That the Son of God admitted little children > into his presence, embracing and blessing them, saying, For of such is > the kingdom of God: That children, by baptism, are solemnly received > into the bosom of the visible church, distinguished from the world, and > them that are without, and united with believers; and that all who are > baptized in the name of Christ, do renounce, and by their baptism are > bound to fight against the devil, the world, and the flesh: That they > are Christians, and federally holy before baptism, and therefore are > they baptized: That the inward grace and virtue of baptism is not tied > to that very moment of time wherein it is administered; and that the > fruit and power thereof reacheth to the whole course of our life; and > that outward baptism is not so necessary, that, through the want > thereof, the infant is in danger of damnation, or the parents guilty, if > they do not contemn or neglect the ordinance of Christ, when and where > it may be had." > In these or the like instructions, the minister is to use his own > liberty and godly wisdom, as the ignorance or errors in the doctrine of > baptism, and the edification of the people, shall require. > He is also to admonish all that are present, "To look back to their > baptism; to repent of their sins against their covenant with God; to > stir up their faith; to improve and make right use of their baptism, and > of the covenant sealed thereby betwixt God and their souls." > He is to exhort the parent, > "To consider the great mercy of God to him and his child; to bring up > the child in the knowledge of the grounds of the Christian religion, > "and in the nurture and admonition of the Lord; and to let him know the > danger of God's wrath to himself and child, if he be negligent: > requiring his solemn promise for the performance of his duty." > This being done, prayer is also to be joined with the word of > institution, for sanctifying the water to this spiritual use; and the > minister is to pray to this or the like effect: > "That the Lord, who hath not left us as strangers without the covenant > of promise, but called us to the privileges of his ordinances, would > graciously vouchsafe to sanctify and bless his own ordinance of baptism > at this time: > That he would join the inward baptism of his Spirit with the outward > baptism of water; make this baptism to the infant a seal of adoption, > remission of sin, regeneration, and eternal life, and all other promises > of the covenant of grace: That the child may be planted into the > likeness of the death and resurrection of Christ; and that, the body of > sin being destroyed in him, he may serve God in newness of life all his > days." > Then the minister is to demand the name of the child; which being told > him, he is to say, (calling the child by his name,) I baptize thee in > the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. > As he pronounceth these words, he is to baptize the child with water: > which, for the manner of doing of it, is not only lawful but sufficient, > and most expedient to be, by pouring or sprinkling of the water on the > face of the child, without adding any other ceremony. > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: presbyterian-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:presbyterian- > > bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Davis, James R CIV OSD DMEA > > Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 2:09 PM > > To: presbyterian@rootsweb.com > > Subject: Re: [PRESBYTERIAN] age of christening question > > > > Hello All, > > Have Presbyterians always had the same sort of baptism? That is > we > > seem to baptise into the church as an infant as a preference or as > > part of a confirmation (joining) process for those who weren't > > baptised as infants. But did we ever, over the centuries, embrace the > > > concept of believer baptism as the prefered method? I prefer the > > later because it seems more scriptural to me, whereas infant baptism > > seems to be more about denominational organizational process. > > Anyone have any ideas on this. > > If the growing churches are more into believer baptism might > this > > cause some of us to rethink what the purpose of baptism is and maybe > > tend to go in this direction? > > James R. Davis, Sacramento, CA > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: presbyterian-bounces@rootsweb.com > > [mailto:presbyterian-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Edward Andrews > > Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 4:58 PM > > To: presbyterian@rootsweb.com > > Subject: Re: [PRESBYTERIAN] age of christening question > > > > The unhelpful answer is any age. It would depend on where and when > > and who was about. > > Officially baptism in the reformed tradition (we don't christen, we > > baptise) was governed by the Directory for the Public Worship of God. > > Actually this 17th Century document was practically superseded by > > local custom and practice. However when we look at this part of the > > Directory we wee that there are a number of constraints. > > > > "BAPTISM, as it is not unnecessarily to be delayed, so it is not to be > > > administered in any case by any private person, but by a minister of > > Christ, called to be the steward of the mysteries of God. > > Nor is it to be administered in private places, or privately, but in > > the place of publick (sic) worship, and in the face of the > > congregation, where the people may most conveniently see and hear; and > > > not in the places where fonts, in the time of Popery, were unfitly and > > > superstitiously placed." > > > > These rules were very well in a country where there was a fair supply > > > of ministers with local Churches. Consider the situation in America, > > with a population scattered over a wide area. Given that only the > > Minister could baptise you had to wait until he was in the locality, > > or the community was gathered in worship (ISTR reading that baptism > > did happen at camp, meetings but I can't find the reference.) > > Certainly in Scotland by some time in the 19th Century baptism at home > > > was the norm in many communities. The result was that in America, as > > happened in Scotland it was not unusual for families to "save up their > > > baptisms" and have all the children "done" at once. You have to > > remember that it was not necessarily easy for Presbyterians to meet up > > > with a minister. It was because of the difficulties in getting > > preachers that there was the foundation of the Cumberland Presbyterian > > > Church and why that subsequently the frontier went Methodist - with a > > much simpler way of organising the live of the Christian Community, > > and then Baptist which was basically a form of independence. > > > > On your chronology while they might have had problems with a preacher > > > in Franklin, certainly they would not when they got to the city. > > > > Let's ask a few questions. Do you know that they were Presbyterian? > > Do you know what kind of minister married the parents? Simply because > > they were Scots you cannot assume that they were Presbyterian. In any > > case by 1800 there were several "Brands" of Presbyterianism in > > Scotland and it is not impossible that you family hung about until > > they could meet up with the same kind of Presbyterianism as they were > used to back home. > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: presbyterian-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:presbyterian- > > > bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of acmbjc@aol.com > > > Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 10:32 PM > > > To: presbyterian@rootsweb.com > > > Subject: [PRESBYTERIAN] age of christening question > > > > > > Might anyone know what the age of christening was in the early > > 1800's?? > > > The location was Pittsburgh, Allegheny Co., PA, but unfortunately I > > > do?NOT known?what church this family attended.? I do know they lived > > > > in northern Allegheny Co., Ross Twp.; the first four children were > > > born in Franklin Co., PA, and the last three in Allegheny; dates of > > > birth were 1808-1812- 1815, and the family name was THOMSON (without > > > > the letter 'P').? They were Scottish, not Irish. > > > > > > > > > Thank you. > > > > > > > > > Marybeth C. > > > acmbjc@aol.com > > > _____________________________ > > > To contact the list admin send an email to: PRESBYTERIAN- > > > admin@rootsweb.com > > > ------------------------------- > > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRESBYTERIAN- > > > request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > > > in > > > > > the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > _____________________________ > > To contact the list admin send an email to: > > PRESBYTERIAN-admin@rootsweb.com > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > PRESBYTERIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > _____________________________ > > To contact the list admin send an email to: PRESBYTERIAN- > > admin@rootsweb.com > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRESBYTERIAN- > > request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in > > > the subject and the body of the message > > > _____________________________ > To contact the list admin send an email to: > PRESBYTERIAN-admin@rootsweb.com > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > PRESBYTERIAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > _____________________________ > To contact the list admin send an email to: PRESBYTERIAN- > admin@rootsweb.com > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PRESBYTERIAN- > request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the > subject and the body of the message