Paul, Thanks for your kind words but it is so interesting that it is not work! Regarding your comments about the statistics I understand what you are saying but......mutations are very rare events and if one has allot of them, the only way you can interpret them is to use statistics and probability. Allot of mutations means a very distant common ancestor and one cannot ignore that as I am sure you appreciate. Anyone who could say that DNA is useless for genealogy must be a Luddite! You know the guys who felt that any mechanization was not an advance (because it put people out of work) and so all machines should be destroyed! The DNA Study is working for us, there is no question. FTDNA do not know how we are all related just that we are all Pen(n)ingtons. The results they return are all spot on when relationships between the participants were previously known to us -they agree with the DNA! There is no way they can fake that. In addition, when some one is quite closely related they have a small number of mutations between them in fast mutating markers only. Our illustrious leader G.W. Bush would not believe we had Saddam until his DNA was typed. Incidentally they did the identity (paternity) DNA test to compare with his sons (that result is unique to Saddam) in addition they did the Y chromosome test to confirm he had the same paternal lineage as his sons. Note that Saddam's Y chromosome will not be unique in Iraq, there are probably hundreds if not thousands in Iraq and around the world that are from the same paternal lineage as him. Nick. "Paul Pennington" <[email protected]> 12/16/2003 12:35 PM Please respond to PRA-L To: [email protected] cc: Subject: Re: Major Change in Interpretation of the DNA Result for Group 28 Nick; Thanks for the good news -- it makes a nice Christmas present for the many members of Group 28. I'm sure everyone in PRA appreciates all the behind-the-scenes work you do on the DNA project. We especially value your translating all this complex scientific information into something of practical value in sorting out our family groups. The science on DNA is very new, and PRA is among the first to use it for genealogical purposes. It should surprise no one that revisions and new findings come along from time to time that force us to re-think our conclusions. I recently received an email from someone in another family who claimed that DNA testing was "absolutely worthless" for genealogy. I certainly do not agree with that, but some caution is in order with the results. Sometimes we forget that all this is based on random events -- mutations over time. While the probability and statistics are useful averages when considering large groups, individual mutations can occur at any time. The DNA has no memory of the last time a mutation occurred. I am glad to see that Family Tree DNA is asking for input from families like ours in an attempt to improve their knowledge of the rates of change at individual locations on the Y-chromosome. Please accept a virtual pat on the back from all of us for your efforts. Paul A. Pennington Augusta, Georgia Group 28 Leader ==== PRA Mailing List ==== ==== PENNINGTON RESEARCH ASSOCIATION ==== To submit a query, go to www.penningtonresearch.org and click on "Submit Query" button.