Maynard, Do you happen to know about the title Esquire? sheryl -----Original Message----- There is a genealogy author who holds class from time to time on the VA Southside wire and delivers some pretty interesting stuff. Here is a sample. Thought others might be interested. Maynard ----- Original Message ----- From: qvarizona To: Paul Drake Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 8:23 AM Subject: Re: "Gentlemen" Paul. When did this practice fade away and the term "gentleman" begin to mean only a polite man of good manners? Joanne ***** An answer to that specific and often asked question is, in the late 19th and early 20th Century as Victorian manners of speaking gradually faded away. Your ancestors would gag to hear the TV news folks call low-life criminals "that gentleman" or "Mr.". Your use of the word "noble" in conjunction with gentleman is noteworthy, since those words usually had very different meanings. The former were born to nobility, and it could be gained no other way. That said, the records/writings of the 17th and early 18th Century reveal that those who had been knighted were SOMETIMES viewed as nobility, but surely not always. As an example, occasionally, Sir Francis Drake (a commoner knighted by Elizabeth I) was referred to as a nobleman, but not consistently. One could become a gentleman or gentlelady by achieving affluence or standing in the community, however they could not thereby become "noble". Similarly, members of the nobility might be called gentlemen (or gentlewomen), however those of nobility would be expected to have viewed being so addressed as beneath their station, and such usage would not have been appreciated. Finally, the term "Mr." was an indication of a person of the highest standing, and just below the nobility. The term was almost NEVER applied to other than men of very high position. The VA Burgesses usually were addressed as "Mister", however when they were no longer in office, they quite usually were not any longer so labeled. The term "Mrs." likewise revealed a lady of VERY high standing, however it was exceedingly rare for a lady to be a "Mrs." unless her husband had earned the title of "Mr.". In that regard, it is interesting that in the Surry Tithables lists for a couple years in the 1670s Judith (Burton?) Hunt Parker was listed as "Mrs. Parker", yet her husband, sometimes "Dr.", usually pewterer Richard Parker was not referred to as "Mr.". Why, I have not been able to learn. For your interest, Philip Bruce has a most interesting discussion of the these matters of titles in his "Economic History of VA in the 17th Century" Genealogy without documentation is nothing. Paul Drake JD Genealogist & Author <www.DrakesBooks.com> ______________________________ ==== POYTHRESS Mailing List ==== Poythress Genealogy Research Web www.poythress.net

Well I looked it up. I forgot I have a dictionary of genealogy. Esquire -- In the Middle Ages a squire (escutifer) carried the shield and other armour of the lord or knight he served, but this duty passed later to pages. Squiers in this sense were of gentle family. By the sixteenth century, Esquire was a title acquired by holding an office under the Crown, and so was not necessarily superior to `gentlema`, but in practice such office-holding carried distinction. Esquires proper held Crown commissions as Justices of the Peace, army officers, Royal Navy commanders (but not junior naval officers), the common hangman, etc. The modern courtesy use of the style became common in the nineteenth century. The squire in a country parish was the colloquial designation for the lor of the manor, or chief landowner. Well it seems like that title has changed often so I guess we would have to know what century the person lived to know what the title meant to whom. sheryl -----Original Message----- Maynard, Do you happen to know about the title Esquire? sheryl -----Original Message----- There is a genealogy author who holds class from time to time on the VA Southside wire and delivers some pretty interesting stuff. Here is a sample. Thought others might be interested. Maynard ----- Original Message ----- From: qvarizona To: Paul Drake Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 8:23 AM Subject: Re: "Gentlemen" Paul. When did this practice fade away and the term "gentleman" begin to mean only a polite man of good manners? Joanne ***** An answer to that specific and often asked question is, in the late 19th and early 20th Century as Victorian manners of speaking gradually faded away. Your ancestors would gag to hear the TV news folks call low-life criminals "that gentleman" or "Mr.". Your use of the word "noble" in conjunction with gentleman is noteworthy, since those words usually had very different meanings. The former were born to nobility, and it could be gained no other way. That said, the records/writings of the 17th and early 18th Century reveal that those who had been knighted were SOMETIMES viewed as nobility, but surely not always. As an example, occasionally, Sir Francis Drake (a commoner knighted by Elizabeth I) was referred to as a nobleman, but not consistently. One could become a gentleman or gentlelady by achieving affluence or standing in the community, however they could not thereby become "noble". Similarly, members of the nobility might be called gentlemen (or gentlewomen), however those of nobility would be expected to have viewed being so addressed as beneath their station, and such usage would not have been appreciated. Finally, the term "Mr." was an indication of a person of the highest standing, and just below the nobility. The term was almost NEVER applied to other than men of very high position. The VA Burgesses usually were addressed as "Mister", however when they were no longer in office, they quite usually were not any longer so labeled. The term "Mrs." likewise revealed a lady of VERY high standing, however it was exceedingly rare for a lady to be a "Mrs." unless her husband had earned the title of "Mr.". In that regard, it is interesting that in the Surry Tithables lists for a couple years in the 1670s Judith (Burton?) Hunt Parker was listed as "Mrs. Parker", yet her husband, sometimes "Dr.", usually pewterer Richard Parker was not referred to as "Mr.". Why, I have not been able to learn. For your interest, Philip Bruce has a most interesting discussion of the these matters of titles in his "Economic History of VA in the 17th Century" Genealogy without documentation is nothing. Paul Drake JD Genealogist & Author <www.DrakesBooks.com> ______________________________ ==== POYTHRESS Mailing List ==== Poythress Genealogy Research Web www.poythress.net ==== POYTHRESS Mailing List ==== The Poythress Genealogy List is hosted by RootsWeb. To learn more about Rootsweb please visit http://www.rootsweb.com/

Very appropriate for this period of time...the "dumbing down of America." Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cliff and Sheryl Townsend" <c.s.townsend@sbcglobal.net> To: <POYTHRESS-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, December 22, 2005 12:09 PM Subject: RE: VA-Southside > Maynard, > Do you happen to know about the title Esquire? > sheryl > > -----Original Message----- > There is a genealogy author who holds class from time to time on the VA > Southside wire and delivers some pretty interesting stuff. > Here is a sample. Thought others might be interested. > > Maynard > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: qvarizona > To: Paul Drake > Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2005 8:23 AM > Subject: Re: "Gentlemen" > > > Paul. > > When did this practice fade away and the term "gentleman" begin to mean > only a polite man of good manners? > > Joanne > ***** > An answer to that specific and often asked question is, in the late 19th > and early 20th Century as Victorian manners of speaking gradually faded > away. Your ancestors would gag to hear the TV news folks call low-life > criminals "that gentleman" or "Mr.". > > Your use of the word "noble" in conjunction with gentleman is > noteworthy, since those words usually had very different meanings. The > former were born to nobility, and it could be gained no other way. That > said, the records/writings of the 17th and early 18th Century reveal > that those who had been knighted were SOMETIMES viewed as nobility, but > surely not always. As an example, occasionally, Sir Francis Drake (a > commoner knighted by Elizabeth I) was referred to as a nobleman, but not > consistently. > > One could become a gentleman or gentlelady by achieving affluence or > standing in the community, however they could not thereby become > "noble". Similarly, members of the nobility might be called gentlemen > (or gentlewomen), however those of nobility would be expected to have > viewed being so addressed as beneath their station, and such usage would > not have been appreciated. > > Finally, the term "Mr." was an indication of a person of the highest > standing, and just below the nobility. The term was almost NEVER applied > to other than men of very high position. The VA Burgesses usually were > addressed as "Mister", however when they were no longer in office, they > quite usually were not any longer so labeled. > > The term "Mrs." likewise revealed a lady of VERY high standing, however > it was exceedingly rare for a lady to be a "Mrs." unless her husband had > earned the title of "Mr.". In that regard, it is interesting that in > the Surry Tithables lists for a couple years in the 1670s Judith > (Burton?) Hunt Parker was listed as "Mrs. Parker", yet her husband, > sometimes "Dr.", usually pewterer Richard Parker was not referred to as > "Mr.". Why, I have not been able to learn. > > For your interest, Philip Bruce has a most interesting discussion of the > these matters of titles in his "Economic History of VA in the 17th > Century" > > > Genealogy without documentation is nothing. > Paul Drake JD > Genealogist & Author > <www.DrakesBooks.com> > > > ______________________________ > > > > > > ==== POYTHRESS Mailing List ==== > Poythress Genealogy Research Web > www.poythress.net > > > > > ==== POYTHRESS Mailing List ==== > The Poythress Genealogy List is hosted by RootsWeb. To learn more about > Rootsweb please visit http://www.rootsweb.com/ > >