Thanks for your great explanation, David. To piggy-back on what you said, I have found that the more rural the parish, the longer patronymic surnames were used. They were frequently recorded in parish records when there was more than one man with the same name fathering children at the same time (i.e. David Lewis John and David Lewis William) up until the printed forms for parish records were used, beginning about 1813. On the forms, the place of abode became the distinguishing feature of identification for fathers of the same name. If the man was of particular importance in the parish, one may find his patronymics for several generations in the older records, such as David Lewis William Rees Llewellyn Evan. Legend says that a Welshman was expected to know his fathers' names for nine generations. Whether or not that is true, I like the idea. ;-) Venita Family History and Other Fascinations venitap.com Just Picture It - Wales http://www.venitap.com/Photolinks/photolinks.html On Feb 2, 2013, at 8:27 AM, David Hopkins - Arakiel Genealogy <david@olyeo.co.uk> wrote: > I'm not sure about using a mother's surname. In the vast majority of > cases, if not all, this would happen when the child was illegitimate. > > Using the father's forename however was the Welsh custom and died out in > different area in different ways. > > Before surnames, Welsh were identified by a patronymic name, e.g. Jevan > ap Gryffydd ap Batho ap Heylin. Areas changed to using English-style > surnames by the 1500s, though some nobles adopted surnames earlier. > Adoption of English surnames happened at different times in different > places. For example, in Oswestry, Shropshire, most people had adopted > English surnames by around 1650. However, in the neighbouring parish of > Llansilin, Denbighshire. I have an ancestor who used his father's > forename as a surname, born in 1754. > > I can't tell you about customs throughout Wales, but I can tell you for > Montgomeryshire. > > http://home.freeuk.net/montgensoc/pages/parish_map.htm > > For the western parishes in St Asaph, patronymics continued to c. > 1700-1750 for many families, in particular the northern parishes. The > other parishes to the north of St Asaph also continued patronymics for > some time. However, for most other parishes in Montgomeryshire, English > surnames were generally adopted c. 1650, bar Llangurig, which is also > more like 1700-1750. > > Also, from my experience, most parishes in Denbighshire seem to be in > the 1700-1750 window. But my experience there is limited. > > Further is should be noted that names like John ap Richard ap LLewellyn, > may have become: John Richard, or John Richards; and the same person > could be refered to as such. You may also see people styled: John > Richard Llewellyn. I have an ancestor who was styled such near 1800, > from Hirnant, Montgomeryshire. > > It is however very difficult to discern if a name is a patronym or > surname. For example > > John Jones, could be John, son of John OR > John Jones, could be John, son of Henry Jones > > Without supplementary documentation, it cannot be proved, and for this > reason, genealogy can be very difficult in parts of Wales where > patronymics prevailed. Particularly as there were so few names in use. > > Compare: > > Denbigh: http://forebears.co.uk/wales/denbighshire#surnames > Montgomery: http://forebears.co.uk/wales/montgomeryshire#surnames > Shropshire: http://forebears.co.uk/england/shropshire#surnames > > > On 02/02/13 14:21, Tomi Larson wrote: >> Hello List, Can someone tell me at what point the practice of using a mother's surname, or perhaps a father's forename, as a child's surname started to wane? >> Was this practice popular all over Wales, or in certain areas more than others? >> Thank you.Tomi >> =================== >> Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > =================== > Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message