By mistake I traced back to the Clees by tracing the wrong cousin. I had a list of Clee wills at Hereford, but no longer have that list. You can consult an index of Hereford wills (though not in that county) from Chris Potter: http://www.shropshirefamilyhistory.co.uk/wills.htm David On 05/02/13 12:15, richardellis wrote: > To David Hoskins > > Thanks for your interest David - we have previously done some checking > of the Clee family ( years ago ) who we know moved to Knighton sometime in > the > late 19th century. However we could not establish a link to other places, > although > we were aware of the Clees in Shropshire and Herefordshire. > > It's probably time! to re-check all the possible sources - which are now > more easily accessible... > > I would appreciate any "tips" on possible record offices/archives to check > out. > > Best wishes > > Richard > > -----Original Message----- > From: powys-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:powys-bounces@rootsweb.com] On > Behalf Of David Hopkins - Arakiel Genealogy > Sent: 04 February 2013 9:44 PM > To: powys@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [POWYS] Welsh names > > On 04/02/13 19:08, richardellis wrote: >> Dear Mary >> >> I'm interested in your Greenwood family lineage in North Radnorshire. >> >> My wife's Great grandmother Adeliza Greenwood was born in Llanbister >> in the early 19th century, then married a John Clee. They moved to > Knighton >> on the border with Shropshire. We have a Greenwood lineage back to 1750 >> here. >> >> Any connection? > > If it's of any help to you, there are Clees around Clun in Shropshire, > with may wills at Hereford and at least one in PCC. > > > >> Richard >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: powys-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:powys-bounces@rootsweb.com] On >> Behalf Of Mary Z >> Sent: 03 February 2013 7:30 PM >> To: powys@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Re: [POWYS] Welsh names >> >> Hi David, >> >> If you have still have references to the sources that you mentioned I > would >> be very keen to have them. The Newtown section of 1671 Hearth Tax of >> Montgomeryshire @ >> http://home.freeuk.net/montgensoc/pages/1671_hearth_tax_Newtown.htm shows >> how many English names were in that hundred then. Amongst them was one of > my >> ancestors, Richard Brumnell. Over the watershed in North Radnorshire, > about >> the same time, were other of my ancestors: Bage, Ingram and Greenwood. All >> married into Welsh families and settled. I would like to find out more > about >> this clustering of English immigrants. >> >> Best wishes, >> Mary >> >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> From: David Hopkins - Arakiel Genealogy <david@olyeo.co.uk> >> To: powys@rootsweb.com >> Sent: Sunday, 3 February 2013, 16:07 >> Subject: Re: [POWYS] Welsh names >> >> Wrong person. >> >> About Trefeglwys. This is based on transcriptions of Murrary Chapman. I >> forget the name of the books - the Great Sessions ones. I have also read >> an essay based on these, which goes into where English families were >> settled in Mont. and one of the main places was Trefwelws. This would >> have affected the culture and can be seen in it's earlier and more >> prevalent adoption of patryonomics, compared to neighbouring >> Llanbrynmair, Penegoes, and Llangurig, a little to the south. >> >> >> On 03/02/13 11:41, Alun Evans wrote: >>> Dear Venita, >>> I'd be interested if you have any facts to backup what you said about >>> Trefeglws in Montgomeryshire. >>> >>> Mid-Wales is dominated by the River Severn that flows through all the > main >>> towns to Shrewsbury and beyond. In the early 1800's the canal was brought >> as >>> far as Newtown (then the "Leeds of Wales") and half a century later the >>> Railways were built. The Anglicisation of Mid-Wales took place because of >>> this West-East communication along the waterways followed by the Railway >> but >>> not before surely. >>> >>> >From my knowledge of the area(and I grew up there) villages as close as > a >>> mile off the main waterway retained the language and their Welshness at >>> least until the second-world war. Wales has had a lot of movement from >>> England since then and a general dilution of Welshness has taken place >> just >>> about everywhere in Wales (especially second homes) that continues to >> change >>> the character of so many of our Welsh villages. It goes on unabated I >> regret >>> to say. >>> >>> Alun Evans >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "David Hopkins - Arakiel Genealogy" <david@olyeo.co.uk> >>> To: <powys@rootsweb.com> >>> Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2013 9:08 PM >>> Subject: Re: [POWYS] Welsh names >>> >>> >>>> On 02/02/13 19:04, Venita wrote: >>>>> Legend says that a Welshman was expected to know his fathers' names for >>>>> nine generations. Whether or not that is true, I like the idea. ;-) >>>> I wish they would have recorded them in the records :D >>>> >>>> >>>> Another observation - There were some places in Wales that had large >>>> amounts of English settlement when Wales was join with England in about >>>> 1534 (forget the exact date) and then on. The places where they settled >>>> tend to be the places where patronymics died out the earliest. One such >>>> place is the area around Trefeglwys in Montgomeryshire. >>>> >>>> >>>>> Venita >>>>> >>>>> Family History and Other Fascinations >>>>> venitap.com >>>>> >>>>> Just Picture It - Wales >>>>> http://www.venitap.com/Photolinks/photolinks.html >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Feb 2, 2013, at 8:27 AM, David Hopkins - Arakiel Genealogy >>>>> <david@olyeo.co.uk> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I'm not sure about using a mother's surname. In the vast majority of >>>>>> cases, if not all, this would happen when the child was illegitimate. >>>>>> >>>>>> Using the father's forename however was the Welsh custom and died out >> in >>>>>> different area in different ways. >>>>>> >>>>>> Before surnames, Welsh were identified by a patronymic name, e.g. > Jevan >>>>>> ap Gryffydd ap Batho ap Heylin. Areas changed to using English-style >>>>>> surnames by the 1500s, though some nobles adopted surnames earlier. >>>>>> Adoption of English surnames happened at different times in different >>>>>> places. For example, in Oswestry, Shropshire, most people had adopted >>>>>> English surnames by around 1650. However, in the neighbouring parish > of >>>>>> Llansilin, Denbighshire. I have an ancestor who used his father's >>>>>> forename as a surname, born in 1754. >>>>>> >>>>>> I can't tell you about customs throughout Wales, but I can tell you > for >>>>>> Montgomeryshire. >>>>>> >>>>>> http://home.freeuk.net/montgensoc/pages/parish_map.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> For the western parishes in St Asaph, patronymics continued to c. >>>>>> 1700-1750 for many families, in particular the northern parishes. The >>>>>> other parishes to the north of St Asaph also continued patronymics for >>>>>> some time. However, for most other parishes in Montgomeryshire, > English >>>>>> surnames were generally adopted c. 1650, bar Llangurig, which is also >>>>>> more like 1700-1750. >>>>>> >>>>>> Also, from my experience, most parishes in Denbighshire seem to be in >>>>>> the 1700-1750 window. But my experience there is limited. >>>>>> >>>>>> Further is should be noted that names like John ap Richard ap >> LLewellyn, >>>>>> may have become: John Richard, or John Richards; and the same person >>>>>> could be refered to as such. You may also see people styled: John >>>>>> Richard Llewellyn. I have an ancestor who was styled such near 1800, >>>>>> from Hirnant, Montgomeryshire. >>>>>> >>>>>> It is however very difficult to discern if a name is a patronym or >>>>>> surname. For example >>>>>> >>>>>> John Jones, could be John, son of John OR >>>>>> John Jones, could be John, son of Henry Jones >>>>>> >>>>>> Without supplementary documentation, it cannot be proved, and for this >>>>>> reason, genealogy can be very difficult in parts of Wales where >>>>>> patronymics prevailed. Particularly as there were so few names in use. >>>>>> >>>>>> Compare: >>>>>> >>>>>> Denbigh: http://forebears.co.uk/wales/denbighshire#surnames >>>>>> Montgomery: http://forebears.co.uk/wales/montgomeryshire#surnames >>>>>> Shropshire: http://forebears.co.uk/england/shropshire#surnames >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 02/02/13 14:21, Tomi Larson wrote: >>>>>>> Hello List, Can someone tell me at what point the practice of using a >>>>>>> mother's surname, or perhaps a father's forename, as a child's > surname >>>>>>> started to wane? >>>>>>> Was this practice popular all over Wales, or in certain areas more >> than >>>>>>> others? >>>>>>> Thank you.Tomi >>>>>>> =================== >>>>>>> Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: >>>>>>> www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm >>>>>>> >>>>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>>>> POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>>> =================== >>>>>> Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: >> www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm >>>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>>> POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>> =================== >>>>> Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: > www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm >>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>> POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes >>>>> in the subject and the body of the message >>>> =================== >>>> Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes >>>> in the subject and the body of the message >>> =================== >>> Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in >> the subject and the body of the message >> >> =================== >> Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in >> the subject and the body of the message >> =================== >> Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in >> the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> =================== >> Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in > the subject and the body of the message > > =================== > Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in > the subject and the body of the message > > =================== > Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message