On 03/02/13 19:30, Mary Z wrote: > Hi David, > > If you have still have references to the sources that you mentioned I would be very keen to have them. The Newtown section of 1671 Hearth Tax of Montgomeryshire @ http://home.freeuk.net/montgensoc/pages/1671_hearth_tax_Newtown.htm The book was called something like Second Stages of Tracing Welsh Ancestry, I think second edition, ed. by John and Sheila Rowlands. > > > ________________________________ > From: David Hopkins - Arakiel Genealogy <david@olyeo.co.uk> > To: powys@rootsweb.com > Sent: Sunday, 3 February 2013, 16:07 > Subject: Re: [POWYS] Welsh names > > Wrong person. > > About Trefeglwys. This is based on transcriptions of Murrary Chapman. I > forget the name of the books - the Great Sessions ones. I have also read > an essay based on these, which goes into where English families were > settled in Mont. and one of the main places was Trefwelws. This would > have affected the culture and can be seen in it's earlier and more > prevalent adoption of patryonomics, compared to neighbouring > Llanbrynmair, Penegoes, and Llangurig, a little to the south. > > > On 03/02/13 11:41, Alun Evans wrote: >> Dear Venita, >> I'd be interested if you have any facts to backup what you said about >> Trefeglws in Montgomeryshire. >> >> Mid-Wales is dominated by the River Severn that flows through all the main >> towns to Shrewsbury and beyond. In the early 1800's the canal was brought as >> far as Newtown (then the "Leeds of Wales") and half a century later the >> Railways were built. The Anglicisation of Mid-Wales took place because of >> this West-East communication along the waterways followed by the Railway but >> not before surely. >> >> >From my knowledge of the area(and I grew up there) villages as close as a >> mile off the main waterway retained the language and their Welshness at >> least until the second-world war. Wales has had a lot of movement from >> England since then and a general dilution of Welshness has taken place just >> about everywhere in Wales (especially second homes) that continues to change >> the character of so many of our Welsh villages. It goes on unabated I regret >> to say. >> >> Alun Evans >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "David Hopkins - Arakiel Genealogy" <david@olyeo.co.uk> >> To: <powys@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2013 9:08 PM >> Subject: Re: [POWYS] Welsh names >> >> >>> On 02/02/13 19:04, Venita wrote: >>>> Legend says that a Welshman was expected to know his fathers' names for >>>> nine generations. Whether or not that is true, I like the idea. ;-) >>> I wish they would have recorded them in the records :D >>> >>> >>> Another observation - There were some places in Wales that had large >>> amounts of English settlement when Wales was join with England in about >>> 1534 (forget the exact date) and then on. The places where they settled >>> tend to be the places where patronymics died out the earliest. One such >>> place is the area around Trefeglwys in Montgomeryshire. >>> >>> >>>> Venita >>>> >>>> Family History and Other Fascinations >>>> venitap.com >>>> >>>> Just Picture It - Wales >>>> http://www.venitap.com/Photolinks/photolinks.html >>>> >>>> >>>> On Feb 2, 2013, at 8:27 AM, David Hopkins - Arakiel Genealogy >>>> <david@olyeo.co.uk> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I'm not sure about using a mother's surname. In the vast majority of >>>>> cases, if not all, this would happen when the child was illegitimate. >>>>> >>>>> Using the father's forename however was the Welsh custom and died out in >>>>> different area in different ways. >>>>> >>>>> Before surnames, Welsh were identified by a patronymic name, e.g. Jevan >>>>> ap Gryffydd ap Batho ap Heylin. Areas changed to using English-style >>>>> surnames by the 1500s, though some nobles adopted surnames earlier. >>>>> Adoption of English surnames happened at different times in different >>>>> places. For example, in Oswestry, Shropshire, most people had adopted >>>>> English surnames by around 1650. However, in the neighbouring parish of >>>>> Llansilin, Denbighshire. I have an ancestor who used his father's >>>>> forename as a surname, born in 1754. >>>>> >>>>> I can't tell you about customs throughout Wales, but I can tell you for >>>>> Montgomeryshire. >>>>> >>>>> http://home.freeuk.net/montgensoc/pages/parish_map.htm >>>>> >>>>> For the western parishes in St Asaph, patronymics continued to c. >>>>> 1700-1750 for many families, in particular the northern parishes. The >>>>> other parishes to the north of St Asaph also continued patronymics for >>>>> some time. However, for most other parishes in Montgomeryshire, English >>>>> surnames were generally adopted c. 1650, bar Llangurig, which is also >>>>> more like 1700-1750. >>>>> >>>>> Also, from my experience, most parishes in Denbighshire seem to be in >>>>> the 1700-1750 window. But my experience there is limited. >>>>> >>>>> Further is should be noted that names like John ap Richard ap LLewellyn, >>>>> may have become: John Richard, or John Richards; and the same person >>>>> could be refered to as such. You may also see people styled: John >>>>> Richard Llewellyn. I have an ancestor who was styled such near 1800, >>>>> from Hirnant, Montgomeryshire. >>>>> >>>>> It is however very difficult to discern if a name is a patronym or >>>>> surname. For example >>>>> >>>>> John Jones, could be John, son of John OR >>>>> John Jones, could be John, son of Henry Jones >>>>> >>>>> Without supplementary documentation, it cannot be proved, and for this >>>>> reason, genealogy can be very difficult in parts of Wales where >>>>> patronymics prevailed. Particularly as there were so few names in use. >>>>> >>>>> Compare: >>>>> >>>>> Denbigh: http://forebears.co.uk/wales/denbighshire#surnames >>>>> Montgomery: http://forebears.co.uk/wales/montgomeryshire#surnames >>>>> Shropshire: http://forebears.co.uk/england/shropshire#surnames >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 02/02/13 14:21, Tomi Larson wrote: >>>>>> Hello List, Can someone tell me at what point the practice of using a >>>>>> mother's surname, or perhaps a father's forename, as a child's surname >>>>>> started to wane? >>>>>> Was this practice popular all over Wales, or in certain areas more than >>>>>> others? >>>>>> Thank you.Tomi >>>>>> =================== >>>>>> Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: >>>>>> www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>>> POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>> =================== >>>>> Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>> POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> =================== >>>> Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes >>>> in the subject and the body of the message >>> =================== >>> Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes >>> in the subject and the body of the message >> =================== >> Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > =================== > Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > =================== > Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message