On 02/02/13 19:04, Venita wrote: > Legend says that a Welshman was expected to know his fathers' names for nine generations. Whether or not that is true, I like the idea. ;-) I wish they would have recorded them in the records :D Another observation - There were some places in Wales that had large amounts of English settlement when Wales was join with England in about 1534 (forget the exact date) and then on. The places where they settled tend to be the places where patronymics died out the earliest. One such place is the area around Trefeglwys in Montgomeryshire. > Venita > > Family History and Other Fascinations > venitap.com > > Just Picture It - Wales > http://www.venitap.com/Photolinks/photolinks.html > > > On Feb 2, 2013, at 8:27 AM, David Hopkins - Arakiel Genealogy <david@olyeo.co.uk> wrote: > >> I'm not sure about using a mother's surname. In the vast majority of >> cases, if not all, this would happen when the child was illegitimate. >> >> Using the father's forename however was the Welsh custom and died out in >> different area in different ways. >> >> Before surnames, Welsh were identified by a patronymic name, e.g. Jevan >> ap Gryffydd ap Batho ap Heylin. Areas changed to using English-style >> surnames by the 1500s, though some nobles adopted surnames earlier. >> Adoption of English surnames happened at different times in different >> places. For example, in Oswestry, Shropshire, most people had adopted >> English surnames by around 1650. However, in the neighbouring parish of >> Llansilin, Denbighshire. I have an ancestor who used his father's >> forename as a surname, born in 1754. >> >> I can't tell you about customs throughout Wales, but I can tell you for >> Montgomeryshire. >> >> http://home.freeuk.net/montgensoc/pages/parish_map.htm >> >> For the western parishes in St Asaph, patronymics continued to c. >> 1700-1750 for many families, in particular the northern parishes. The >> other parishes to the north of St Asaph also continued patronymics for >> some time. However, for most other parishes in Montgomeryshire, English >> surnames were generally adopted c. 1650, bar Llangurig, which is also >> more like 1700-1750. >> >> Also, from my experience, most parishes in Denbighshire seem to be in >> the 1700-1750 window. But my experience there is limited. >> >> Further is should be noted that names like John ap Richard ap LLewellyn, >> may have become: John Richard, or John Richards; and the same person >> could be refered to as such. You may also see people styled: John >> Richard Llewellyn. I have an ancestor who was styled such near 1800, >> from Hirnant, Montgomeryshire. >> >> It is however very difficult to discern if a name is a patronym or >> surname. For example >> >> John Jones, could be John, son of John OR >> John Jones, could be John, son of Henry Jones >> >> Without supplementary documentation, it cannot be proved, and for this >> reason, genealogy can be very difficult in parts of Wales where >> patronymics prevailed. Particularly as there were so few names in use. >> >> Compare: >> >> Denbigh: http://forebears.co.uk/wales/denbighshire#surnames >> Montgomery: http://forebears.co.uk/wales/montgomeryshire#surnames >> Shropshire: http://forebears.co.uk/england/shropshire#surnames >> >> >> On 02/02/13 14:21, Tomi Larson wrote: >>> Hello List, Can someone tell me at what point the practice of using a mother's surname, or perhaps a father's forename, as a child's surname started to wane? >>> Was this practice popular all over Wales, or in certain areas more than others? >>> Thank you.Tomi >>> =================== >>> Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> =================== >> Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > =================== > Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Dear Venita, I'd be interested if you have any facts to backup what you said about Trefeglws in Montgomeryshire. Mid-Wales is dominated by the River Severn that flows through all the main towns to Shrewsbury and beyond. In the early 1800's the canal was brought as far as Newtown (then the "Leeds of Wales") and half a century later the Railways were built. The Anglicisation of Mid-Wales took place because of this West-East communication along the waterways followed by the Railway but not before surely. >From my knowledge of the area(and I grew up there) villages as close as a mile off the main waterway retained the language and their Welshness at least until the second-world war. Wales has had a lot of movement from England since then and a general dilution of Welshness has taken place just about everywhere in Wales (especially second homes) that continues to change the character of so many of our Welsh villages. It goes on unabated I regret to say. Alun Evans ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Hopkins - Arakiel Genealogy" <david@olyeo.co.uk> To: <powys@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2013 9:08 PM Subject: Re: [POWYS] Welsh names > On 02/02/13 19:04, Venita wrote: >> Legend says that a Welshman was expected to know his fathers' names for >> nine generations. Whether or not that is true, I like the idea. ;-) > > I wish they would have recorded them in the records :D > > > Another observation - There were some places in Wales that had large > amounts of English settlement when Wales was join with England in about > 1534 (forget the exact date) and then on. The places where they settled > tend to be the places where patronymics died out the earliest. One such > place is the area around Trefeglwys in Montgomeryshire. > > >> Venita >> >> Family History and Other Fascinations >> venitap.com >> >> Just Picture It - Wales >> http://www.venitap.com/Photolinks/photolinks.html >> >> >> On Feb 2, 2013, at 8:27 AM, David Hopkins - Arakiel Genealogy >> <david@olyeo.co.uk> wrote: >> >>> I'm not sure about using a mother's surname. In the vast majority of >>> cases, if not all, this would happen when the child was illegitimate. >>> >>> Using the father's forename however was the Welsh custom and died out in >>> different area in different ways. >>> >>> Before surnames, Welsh were identified by a patronymic name, e.g. Jevan >>> ap Gryffydd ap Batho ap Heylin. Areas changed to using English-style >>> surnames by the 1500s, though some nobles adopted surnames earlier. >>> Adoption of English surnames happened at different times in different >>> places. For example, in Oswestry, Shropshire, most people had adopted >>> English surnames by around 1650. However, in the neighbouring parish of >>> Llansilin, Denbighshire. I have an ancestor who used his father's >>> forename as a surname, born in 1754. >>> >>> I can't tell you about customs throughout Wales, but I can tell you for >>> Montgomeryshire. >>> >>> http://home.freeuk.net/montgensoc/pages/parish_map.htm >>> >>> For the western parishes in St Asaph, patronymics continued to c. >>> 1700-1750 for many families, in particular the northern parishes. The >>> other parishes to the north of St Asaph also continued patronymics for >>> some time. However, for most other parishes in Montgomeryshire, English >>> surnames were generally adopted c. 1650, bar Llangurig, which is also >>> more like 1700-1750. >>> >>> Also, from my experience, most parishes in Denbighshire seem to be in >>> the 1700-1750 window. But my experience there is limited. >>> >>> Further is should be noted that names like John ap Richard ap LLewellyn, >>> may have become: John Richard, or John Richards; and the same person >>> could be refered to as such. You may also see people styled: John >>> Richard Llewellyn. I have an ancestor who was styled such near 1800, >>> from Hirnant, Montgomeryshire. >>> >>> It is however very difficult to discern if a name is a patronym or >>> surname. For example >>> >>> John Jones, could be John, son of John OR >>> John Jones, could be John, son of Henry Jones >>> >>> Without supplementary documentation, it cannot be proved, and for this >>> reason, genealogy can be very difficult in parts of Wales where >>> patronymics prevailed. Particularly as there were so few names in use. >>> >>> Compare: >>> >>> Denbigh: http://forebears.co.uk/wales/denbighshire#surnames >>> Montgomery: http://forebears.co.uk/wales/montgomeryshire#surnames >>> Shropshire: http://forebears.co.uk/england/shropshire#surnames >>> >>> >>> On 02/02/13 14:21, Tomi Larson wrote: >>>> Hello List, Can someone tell me at what point the practice of using a >>>> mother's surname, or perhaps a father's forename, as a child's surname >>>> started to wane? >>>> Was this practice popular all over Wales, or in certain areas more than >>>> others? >>>> Thank you.Tomi >>>> =================== >>>> Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: >>>> www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> =================== >>> Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> =================== >> Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes >> in the subject and the body of the message > > =================== > Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message