Hello Venita and others...Considering the observation below, might Monmouthshire be considered one of the places where the patronymics died out earlier than other places?Thanks, Tomi > > Another observation - There were some places in Wales that had large > > amounts of English settlement when Wales was join with England in about > > 1534 (forget the exact date) and then on. The places where they settled > > tend to be the places where patronymics died out the earliest. One such > > place is the area around Trefeglwys in Montgomeryshire. > > > > > >> Venita

I have read that patronymics died out earlier in Monmouthshire than elsewhere in Wales, as it was considered part of England until fairly recently. Sorry I can't put my finger on the source at the moment. Margaret New Jersey, USA On Sun, Feb 3, 2013 at 3:34 PM, Tomi Larson <tomil23@hotmail.com> wrote: > Hello Venita and others...Considering the observation below, might > Monmouthshire be considered one of the places where the patronymics died > out earlier than other places?Thanks, Tomi > > > > > Another observation - There were some places in Wales that had large > > > amounts of English settlement when Wales was join with England in about > > > 1534 (forget the exact date) and then on. The places where they settled > > > tend to be the places where patronymics died out the earliest. One such > > > place is the area around Trefeglwys in Montgomeryshire. > > > > > > > > >> Venita > > > =================== > Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > -- Luzerne County, Pennsylvania: AMOS, CHARLES, DAVIES, FISHER, HENRY, PRICE, RAUGH/ROUGH, REESE, WAGNER Brecknockshire (Breconshire): HAMON (?) Monmouthshire: AMOS/HAMON, REES Glamorganshire: DAVIS/DAVIES, COLLINS (also Ireland), REESE Cardiganshire: GRIFFITHS, THOMAS Holland and Germany: UPDYKE, DIETRICH, GRANTZ

I have not researched Monmouthshire, but given that it is considered sometimes as part of England, it will undoubtedly be a place where patronymics died out earlier. You can check yourself by looking at some registers. There may be printed ones on archive.org. FindMyPast has most Welsh PR images and an index. Hearth taxes would be another good source. I think there are 6 or so for Wales that have been published and at least two of these are online. David On 03/02/13 20:34, Tomi Larson wrote: > Hello Venita and others...Considering the observation below, might Monmouthshire be considered one of the places where the patronymics died out earlier than other places?Thanks, Tomi > > >>> Another observation - There were some places in Wales that had large >>> amounts of English settlement when Wales was join with England in about >>> 1534 (forget the exact date) and then on. The places where they settled >>> tend to be the places where patronymics died out the earliest. One such >>> place is the area around Trefeglwys in Montgomeryshire. >>> >>> >>>> Venita > > =================== > Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Having thought on it further, a few details from the article, other articles and possibly by word of mouth have come to mind. I seem to remember that after Wales joined the Union, c. 1534, the Earl of Leicester acquired a lot of land in Montgomeryshire; and rather than have the 'barbaric Welsh' as tenants on his farm, he brought in stock from his estates in England. If I remember correctly, these were predominately around Trefeglwys, Llandinam and Llanidloes? This caused quite a stir and in Chapman's Great Session transcripts there are numerous 'racially' motivated cases. In my notes I have this: Dated 9 January 1581: Leicester appointed tenancy to the following people. Wosencroft age 60 Llanidloes Twp John Wilson of Llandinam Twp age 44 George Ashton Llanidloes Twp age 55 Ralph Marple Llangurid Twp age 60 Thomas Cooper of Llandinam age 43 One of the witnesses was Nicholas Bennett who held tenancy from Earl of Leicester in townships of Hengywnewydd and Dethenydd in parish of Llandinam. In Chapman's Great Session transcripts there are some references to where these English came from and Debyshire seems to be a considerable source. I've seen quite a lot of tension regarding the importation of English families "stealing" farms from the Welsh. One of my ancestors or relatives, Humphrey Cureton was murdered in Guilsfield around 1597 for being English. This family moved from around Wem, Shropshire and I presume moved freely after buying land there. On 03/02/13 21:17, David Hopkins - Arakiel Genealogy wrote: > I have not researched Monmouthshire, but given that it is considered > sometimes as part of England, it will undoubtedly be a place where > patronymics died out earlier. > > You can check yourself by looking at some registers. There may be > printed ones on archive.org. FindMyPast has most Welsh PR images and an > index. > > Hearth taxes would be another good source. I think there are 6 or so for > Wales that have been published and at least two of these are online. > > > David > > > On 03/02/13 20:34, Tomi Larson wrote: >> Hello Venita and others...Considering the observation below, might Monmouthshire be considered one of the places where the patronymics died out earlier than other places?Thanks, Tomi >> >> >>>> Another observation - There were some places in Wales that had large >>>> amounts of English settlement when Wales was join with England in about >>>> 1534 (forget the exact date) and then on. The places where they settled >>>> tend to be the places where patronymics died out the earliest. One such >>>> place is the area around Trefeglwys in Montgomeryshire. >>>> >>>> >>>>> Venita >> >> =================== >> Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > =================== > Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi David, Many thanks for looking up your notes and all those references. I will follow them up. Derbyshire fits with other members of the Bage family I've seen in other sources. Best wishes, Mary ________________________________ From: David Hopkins - Arakiel Genealogy <david@olyeo.co.uk> To: powys@rootsweb.com Sent: Sunday, 3 February 2013, 21:30 Subject: Re: [POWYS] Welsh names Having thought on it further, a few details from the article, other articles and possibly by word of mouth have come to mind. I seem to remember that after Wales joined the Union, c. 1534, the Earl of Leicester acquired a lot of land in Montgomeryshire; and rather than have the 'barbaric Welsh' as tenants on his farm, he brought in stock from his estates in England. If I remember correctly, these were predominately around Trefeglwys, Llandinam and Llanidloes? This caused quite a stir and in Chapman's Great Session transcripts there are numerous 'racially' motivated cases. In my notes I have this: Dated 9 January 1581: Leicester appointed tenancy to the following people. Wosencroft age 60 Llanidloes Twp John Wilson of Llandinam Twp age 44 George Ashton Llanidloes Twp age 55 Ralph Marple Llangurid Twp age 60 Thomas Cooper of Llandinam age 43 One of the witnesses was Nicholas Bennett who held tenancy from Earl of Leicester in townships of Hengywnewydd and Dethenydd in parish of Llandinam. In Chapman's Great Session transcripts there are some references to where these English came from and Debyshire seems to be a considerable source. I've seen quite a lot of tension regarding the importation of English families "stealing" farms from the Welsh. One of my ancestors or relatives, Humphrey Cureton was murdered in Guilsfield around 1597 for being English. This family moved from around Wem, Shropshire and I presume moved freely after buying land there. On 03/02/13 21:17, David Hopkins - Arakiel Genealogy wrote: > I have not researched Monmouthshire, but given that it is considered > sometimes as part of England, it will undoubtedly be a place where > patronymics died out earlier. > > You can check yourself by looking at some registers. There may be > printed ones on archive.org. FindMyPast has most Welsh PR images and an > index. > > Hearth taxes would be another good source. I think there are 6 or so for > Wales that have been published and at least two of these are online. > > > David > > > On 03/02/13 20:34, Tomi Larson wrote: >> Hello Venita and others...Considering the observation below, might Monmouthshire be considered one of the places where the patronymics died out earlier than other places?Thanks, Tomi >> >> >>>> Another observation - There were some places in Wales that had large >>>> amounts of English settlement when Wales was join with England in about >>>> 1534 (forget the exact date) and then on. The places where they settled >>>> tend to be the places where patronymics died out the earliest. One such >>>> place is the area around Trefeglwys in Montgomeryshire. >>>> >>>> >>>>> Venita >>                          >> =================== >> Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm >>    >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > =================== > Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm >  > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message =================== Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Tomi.  It is probable that patronymics died out earlier in Monmouthshire. After the Act of Union in 1536  Monmouthshire had an ambiguous position. There was one legal and administrative system in twelve counties of Wales  but Monmouthshire became part of the English system.   It would have been more difficult  for someone to have dealings in a court and give a non-approved form of name. I can just imagine a judge or officials from an English counties circuit saying "Do you call that a proper name?" and refusing to accept a petition or witness statement unless the name was changed. In addition Monmouthshire has a long land border with English counties and, before the railway age, a considerable trade with English counties across the Severn estuary and so more open to English influences.But in the more remote valleys the system, like the language, could have lived on longer. Best wishes,  Mary ________________________________ From: Tomi Larson <tomil23@hotmail.com> To: Powys Rootsweb <powys@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, 3 February 2013, 20:34 Subject: Re: [POWYS] Welsh names Hello Venita and others...Considering the observation below, might Monmouthshire be considered one of the places where the patronymics died out earlier than other places?Thanks, Tomi > > Another observation - There were some places in Wales that had large > > amounts of English settlement when Wales was join with England in about > > 1534 (forget the exact date) and then on. The places where they settled > > tend to be the places where patronymics died out the earliest. One such > > place is the area around Trefeglwys in Montgomeryshire. > > > > > >> Venita                         =================== Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message