I think the problem with changes in the Welsh language goes back to the days of Edward 1st when the English ruled the land of Wales and gave everything their version of names and places etc. What we in Wales have done is to revive the original, and I may say correct spellings. For instance you won't find Conway anywhere now as it has been changed to the Welsh spelling of Conwy and quite rightly so. You won't find the county of Caernavonshire either as it has been spilit iuup into the two ancient Welsh counties of Conwy and Gwynedd. So, the rule is, if in Wales, please spell it our way and not your own. ________________________________ From: Clive Gardener <clive-gardener@tiscali.co.uk> To: powys@rootsweb.com Sent: Monday, 28 January 2013, 17:22 Subject: Re: [POWYS] POWYS Digest, Vol 8, Issue 14 Hi Helen Thanks for your reply. I suppose my frustration at spellings being changed is that when I was 3 years old, or so, I was made to sit down in a chair, with a writing table in front of me, and write out my surname until I got the spelling right! And even today other people still seem to make the same mistake that I used to and was told off for - by writing 'Gardner' instead of 'Gardener'. So, when I learn a name I try to be consistent thereafter with the way that I spell it! Early family holidays were to Conway, but just try finding a place with this name on modern maps today! You can't. To make sure that I wasn't misremembering earlier times I put the word 'Conway' into 'collectables' on eBay and, lo and behold, there they are - all the picture postcards with the original spelling! Your solution of being faithful to the original quotations seems the best one. When I refer to the 'Mynydd Llangatwg Cave Mangement (Advisory) Committee' then I always use the spelling as chosen by the organisation in the late 1980s, because this is the true name by which it was formed. However, all the scientific papers and writings about the mountain use the form that can be found on Ordnance Survey maps until very recently: 'Mynydd Llangattwg'. When I explained the reason for the difference in the way that I spell the name in different contexts, to the editor of a magazine, he missed the point I was making and merely referred to the fact that the magazine has a preferred house style, which he would use. I like hearing the correct pronounciation for Welsh names and trying to pronounce them correctly myself! Most of the people I've met in South Wales since 1980 seem to be like you in that they were not brought up to speak Welsh, so the revival of the language, by making knowledge of it mandatory for being employed in key positions, must have been quite a shock to many people living and working in South Wales. One person I know at the National Museum of Wales told me that the people who were benefitting most were those well trained in the Welsh language, who can command high fees for translating official documents into Welsh! I guess the lasting changes are the ones which people adopt voluntarily, because they fit and work best. Best wishes Clive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Helen Forder" <helenforder@homecall.co.uk> To: <powys@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 8:56 AM Subject: Re: [POWYS] POWYS Digest, Vol 8, Issue 14 > Hello Clive, > Thanks for your interesting remarks. I am Welsh through and through, apart > from the language which, although my mother was a Welsh speaker, she would > not use Welsh with us children! 'It would hold you back' was the thinking > in > those days. I have tried to make up for it by having Welsh lessons later > in > life, but regret very much that I am not fluent! I agree that it is > probably > best to use the Welsh version in Welsh text, and the more common 'English' > spellings in English text. I did try to use 'Llanofer' throughout in my > book, but realised I was being a bit pedantic, so changed it to > 'Llanover', > except in quotations where the Welsh was used. It is such a beautiful > language! > Best wishes, > Helen > > -----Original Message----- > From: powys-request@rootsweb.com > Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 8:00 AM > To: powys@rootsweb.com > Subject: POWYS Digest, Vol 8, Issue 14 > > > > Today's Topics: > >  1. Re: POWYS Digest, Vol 8, Issue 12 (Clive Gardener) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2013 23:27:40 -0000 > From: "Clive Gardener" <clive-gardener@tiscali.co.uk> > Subject: Re: [POWYS] POWYS Digest, Vol 8, Issue 12 > To: <powys@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID: <3F03B61063EA4B2192FF52E598F89AEA@bkbulhbx> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > Hi Helen > > Thanks for your reply! > > I've had a problem with Llangattock when referring to 'Mynydd Llangattwg' > because apparently the 'tt' doesn't exist in grammatically correct Welsh > and > so there was a sudden change to the spelling 'Llangatwg' during the late > 1980s. However, I've always felt that names are how you come to know > people > and places and that they don't always align with linguistic purity. There > are places in England with ancient names, the logic for which has long > since > been lost. Say, for example, Folkestone, supposed to have migrated from > Folcanstan and Lyme Regis, from Lim or Lym. Once the name is changed then > so > too does the 'feeling' that goes with it. > > I suppose it is quite an ironical fact that the person who championed > Welsh > culture should have her name changed by the Welsh linguists, too! > > Along the same lines, 'The Trevil Rail Road Company' should really become > the 'The Trefil Rail Road Company' - except it can't, because the company > no > longer exists and all the historical records use the spelling 'Trevil'! > > Perhaps the simplest answer would be to use 'pure Welsh' spellings in > Welsh > texts and 'English' spellings in English texts? > > I'm sure this isn't a debate that will end any time soon! > > Best regards > > Clive > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Helen Forder" <helenforder@homecall.co.uk> > To: <powys@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2013 9:08 AM > Subject: Re: [POWYS] POWYS Digest, Vol 8, Issue 12 > > >> Hello Clive, when I first made my website I was trying to go back to the >> Welsh 'Llanofer' and the logo was made for me. The Llanover family prefer >> to >> use 'Llanover' when writing in English, as that is how Lady Llanover >> spelt >> it! I have given up the struggle to always use 'Llanofer'. Pity really! >> >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 09:03:53 -0000 >> From: "Helen Forder" <helenforder@homecall.co.uk> >> Subject: [POWYS] Lord and Lady Llanover (Gwenynen Gwent and Big Ben) >> To: <POWYS@rootsweb.com> >> Message-ID: <1E50479DCEBB446FB5E884782ABEB76F@OwnerPC> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >> >> I have been researching the lives of Lord and Lady Llanover for several >> years and have put much of it online at >> http://augustaladyllanover.coffeecup.com >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 2 >> Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 20:24:14 -0000 >> From: "Clive Gardener" <clive-gardener@tiscali.co.uk> >> Subject: Re: [POWYS] Lord and Lady Llanover (Gwenynen Gwent and Big >> Ben) >> To: <powys@rootsweb.com> >> Message-ID: <5348ACE3E19C452F86689E0D04C07FCF@bkbulhbx> >> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; >> reply-type=original >> >> Just wondering why you use a different spelling for 'Llanover' in your >> e-mail as compared against the website? >> >> Apparently, "The estate has been within the same family since the >> eighteenth >> century . . ." : http://www.llanover.com/ >> >> >> >> >> >> =================== >> Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes >> in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------ > > To contact the POWYS list administrator, send an email to > POWYS-admin@rootsweb.com. > > To post a message to the POWYS mailing list, send an email to > POWYS@rootsweb.com. > > __________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > POWYS-request@rootsweb.com > with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the body > of the > email with no additional text. > > > End of POWYS Digest, Vol 8, Issue 14 > ************************************ > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Text inserted by Panda GP 2013: > > This message has NOT been classified as spam. 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