Hi Anna & D Jones I'm all for the revival of the Welsh language and culture. The problem seems to be that we all need benchmarks in this world by which we can navigate our way around and if those benchmarks wobble or become fuzzy then our navigation does, too. Where I live the majority of the people around have Asian origins - the world has changed from the medieval situation where everyone living in a parish or a specific area shared a common language and similar roots and culture. Trains, motor vehicles and aircraft have all played their part in bringing this about - and many of the early rails, by which this change originally happened, were made in Wales! The break up of traditional counties and localities and the renaming of them has always been going on and will always continue into the future. Communities grow and decline, along with their needs and the services to be provided - rather than exist as static entities, frozen in time. However, often people like to retain and continue to use historic county and parish names. Isn't there also some move afoot to try and redefine the voting districts, or overall number of MPs, to help swing the next general election in one direction or another - away from the present near-even balance? So, these redefinitions are sometimes promoted for political reasons rather than any other. It's the job of the historian to try and identify how and when these changes have happened and place them in context. I think the problem with authoritarian systems, that have to be adhered to one way or another, is that individual thought is stiffled and then when things turn upside down, as has currently happened with the world economy, there is no mechanism in place to help pull things back into balance again. All the obedient people look to the next obedient person to come up with a solution and, of course, they equally can't think of what to do - because it's not in their nature to look outside the box and suggest a solution. The issue of altering spellings, though, for a name which remains fundamentally the same, is not the same as the process of full renaming to suit new boundaries. Hopefully this is a debate which can be aired without people taking exception, except you sort of get the impression of people being huddled into corners, here and there, going "shush" to each other! Best regards Clive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Anna Brueton" <bruetons@anoeth.demon.co.uk> To: "D JONES" <djedoric1958@btinternet.com>; <powys@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 11:54 AM Subject: [POWYS] Welsh place names > While I would agree that in principle we should use the "correct" > spellings, I don't think it's as simple as D Jones > suggests. Standard alphabets are a creation of modern times, and > didn't exist in either Welsh or English in Edward I's day. So today > the "correct" spelling is that of modern Welsh orthography - for > example Conwy or Llanelli. But few people would use Caerdydd or > Llanymddyfri for Cardiff and Llandovery when speaking or writing in > English. > > Clive Gardener's query concerned the spelling of Llangatwg. On the > face of it, that's the correct spelling. But the church is named for > the saint who elsewhere is written Cadoc, Cadog, and Cattwg. So > there's clearly no consistent ancient correct spelling here. > > There is a further problem with the names of institutions which > incorporate an anglicised place name, for example Poor Law > Unions. It's surely unhistorical to modernise their names - eg > Brecknock PLU to Brecon PLU - though it pains me to write Llandilo > for Llandeilo! > > Anna > > At 11:02 29/01/2013, you wrote: >>I think the problem with changes in the Welsh language goes back to >>the days of Edward 1st when the English ruled the land of Wales and >>gave everything their version of names and places etc. What we in >>Wales have done is to revive the original, and I may say correct >>spellings. For instance you won't find Conway anywhere now as it has >>been changed to the Welsh spelling of Conwy and quite rightly so. >>You won't find the county of Caernavonshire either as it has been >>spilit iuup into the two ancient Welsh counties of Conwy and >>Gwynedd. So, the rule is, if in Wales, please spell it our way and >>not your own. >> >> >> >>________________________________ >> From: Clive Gardener <clive-gardener@tiscali.co.uk> >>To: powys@rootsweb.com >>Sent: Monday, 28 January 2013, 17:22 >>Subject: Re: [POWYS] POWYS Digest, Vol 8, Issue 14 >> >>Hi Helen >> >>Thanks for your reply. >> >>I suppose my frustration at spellings being changed is that when I was 3 >>years old, or so, I was made to sit down in a chair, with a writing table >>in >>front of me, and write out my surname until I got the spelling right! And >>even today other people still seem to make the same mistake that I used to >>and was told off for - by writing 'Gardner' instead of 'Gardener'. So, >>when >>I learn a name I try to be consistent thereafter with the way that I spell >>it! >> >>Early family holidays were to Conway, but just try finding a place with >>this >>name on modern maps today! You can't. To make sure that I wasn't >>misremembering earlier times I put the word 'Conway' into 'collectables' >>on >>eBay and, lo and behold, there they are - all the picture postcards with >>the >>original spelling! >> >>Your solution of being faithful to the original quotations seems the best >>one. When I refer to the 'Mynydd Llangatwg Cave Mangement (Advisory) >>Committee' then I always use the spelling as chosen by the organisation in >>the late 1980s, because this is the true name by which it was formed. >>However, all the scientific papers and writings about the mountain use the >>form that can be found on Ordnance Survey maps until very recently: >>'Mynydd >>Llangattwg'. When I explained the reason for the difference in the way >>that >>I spell the name in different contexts, to the editor of a magazine, he >>missed the point I was making and merely referred to the fact that the >>magazine has a preferred house style, which he would use. >> >>I like hearing the correct pronounciation for Welsh names and trying to >>pronounce them correctly myself! >> >>Most of the people I've met in South Wales since 1980 seem to be like you >>in >>that they were not brought up to speak Welsh, so the revival of the >>language, by making knowledge of it mandatory for being employed in key >>positions, must have been quite a shock to many people living and working >>in >>South Wales. One person I know at the National Museum of Wales told me >>that >>the people who were benefitting most were those well trained in the Welsh >>language, who can command high fees for translating official documents >>into >>Welsh! >> >>I guess the lasting changes are the ones which people adopt voluntarily, >>because they fit and work best. >> >>Best wishes >> >>Clive >> >> >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Helen Forder" <helenforder@homecall.co.uk> >>To: <powys@rootsweb.com> >>Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 8:56 AM >>Subject: Re: [POWYS] POWYS Digest, Vol 8, Issue 14 >> >> >> > Hello Clive, >> > Thanks for your interesting remarks. I am Welsh through and through, >> > apart >> > from the language which, although my mother was a Welsh speaker, she >> > would >> > not use Welsh with us children! 'It would hold you back' was the >> > thinking >> > in >> > those days. I have tried to make up for it by having Welsh lessons >> > later >> > in >> > life, but regret very much that I am not fluent! I agree that it is >> > probably >> > best to use the Welsh version in Welsh text, and the more common >> > 'English' >> > spellings in English text. I did try to use 'Llanofer' throughout in my >> > book, but realised I was being a bit pedantic, so changed it to >> > 'Llanover', >> > except in quotations where the Welsh was used. It is such a beautiful >> > language! >> > Best wishes, >> > Helen >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: powys-request@rootsweb.com >> > Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 8:00 AM >> > To: powys@rootsweb.com >> > Subject: POWYS Digest, Vol 8, Issue 14 >> > >> > >> > >> > Today's Topics: >> > >> > 1. Re: POWYS Digest, Vol 8, Issue 12 (Clive Gardener) >> > >> > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > >> > Message: 1 >> > Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2013 23:27:40 -0000 >> > From: "Clive Gardener" <clive-gardener@tiscali.co.uk> >> > Subject: Re: [POWYS] POWYS Digest, Vol 8, Issue 12 >> > To: <powys@rootsweb.com> >> > Message-ID: <3F03B61063EA4B2192FF52E598F89AEA@bkbulhbx> >> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; >> > reply-type=original >> > >> > Hi Helen >> > >> > Thanks for your reply! >> > >> > I've had a problem with Llangattock when referring to 'Mynydd >> > Llangattwg' >> > because apparently the 'tt' doesn't exist in grammatically correct >> > Welsh >> > and >> > so there was a sudden change to the spelling 'Llangatwg' during the >> > late >> > 1980s. However, I've always felt that names are how you come to know >> > people >> > and places and that they don't always align with linguistic purity. >> > There >> > are places in England with ancient names, the logic for which has long >> > since >> > been lost. Say, for example, Folkestone, supposed to have migrated from >> > Folcanstan and Lyme Regis, from Lim or Lym. Once the name is changed >> > then >> > so >> > too does the 'feeling' that goes with it. >> > >> > I suppose it is quite an ironical fact that the person who championed >> > Welsh >> > culture should have her name changed by the Welsh linguists, too! >> > >> > Along the same lines, 'The Trevil Rail Road Company' should really >> > become >> > the 'The Trefil Rail Road Company' - except it can't, because the >> > company >> > no >> > longer exists and all the historical records use the spelling 'Trevil'! >> > >> > Perhaps the simplest answer would be to use 'pure Welsh' spellings in >> > Welsh >> > texts and 'English' spellings in English texts? >> > >> > I'm sure this isn't a debate that will end any time soon! >> > >> > Best regards >> > >> > Clive >> > >> > >> > >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: "Helen Forder" <helenforder@homecall.co.uk> >> > To: <powys@rootsweb.com> >> > Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2013 9:08 AM >> > Subject: Re: [POWYS] POWYS Digest, Vol 8, Issue 12 >> > >> > >> >> Hello Clive, when I first made my website I was trying to go back to >> >> the >> >> Welsh 'Llanofer' and the logo was made for me. The Llanover family >> >> prefer >> >> to >> >> use 'Llanover' when writing in English, as that is how Lady Llanover >> >> spelt >> >> it! I have given up the struggle to always use 'Llanofer'. Pity >> >> really! >> >> >> >> >> >> Message: 1 >> >> Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 09:03:53 -0000 >> >> From: "Helen Forder" <helenforder@homecall.co.uk> >> >> Subject: [POWYS] Lord and Lady Llanover (Gwenynen Gwent and Big Ben) >> >> To: <POWYS@rootsweb.com> >> >> Message-ID: <1E50479DCEBB446FB5E884782ABEB76F@OwnerPC> >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >> >> >> >> I have been researching the lives of Lord and Lady Llanover for >> >> several >> >> years and have put much of it online at >> >> http://augustaladyllanover.coffeecup.com >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> >> >> Message: 2 >> >> Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 20:24:14 -0000 >> >> From: "Clive Gardener" <clive-gardener@tiscali.co.uk> >> >> Subject: Re: [POWYS] Lord and Lady Llanover (Gwenynen Gwent and Big >> >> Ben) >> >> To: <powys@rootsweb.com> >> >> Message-ID: <5348ACE3E19C452F86689E0D04C07FCF@bkbulhbx> >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; >> >> reply-type=original >> >> >> >> Just wondering why you use a different spelling for 'Llanover' in your >> >> e-mail as compared against the website? >> >> >> >> Apparently, "The estate has been within the same family since the >> >> eighteenth >> >> century . . ." : http://www.llanover.com/ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> =================== >> >> Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: >> >> www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> >> POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> >> quotes >> >> in the subject and the body of the message >> > >> > >> > >> > ------------------------------ >> > >> > To contact the POWYS list administrator, send an email to >> > POWYS-admin@rootsweb.com. >> > >> > To post a message to the POWYS mailing list, send an email to >> > POWYS@rootsweb.com. >> > >> > __________________________________________________________ >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > POWYS-request@rootsweb.com >> > with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the >> > body >> > of the >> > email with no additional text. >> > >> > >> > End of POWYS Digest, Vol 8, Issue 14 >> > ************************************ >> > >> > >> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > Text inserted by Panda GP 2013: >> > >> > This message has NOT been classified as spam. 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