John Ball Wrote: <Dear Ellen, I hope your comment was made with tongue in cheek! If not, I would caution you, and other listers, not to get carried away by reading about any claims to have traced a pedigree back to specific individuals living in AD 380, 1150, or even 1500.> Mr. Ball's "caution" is understood. However, I never CLAIMED "to have traced a pedigree back to specific individuals living in AD 380, 1150, or even 1500." I only noted my findings in the published pedigrees. My "paper trail" ends c. 1500 and does not include any pedigrees back to that time. As to Lewys Dwnn, John Ball wrote: <I very much doubt whether the work of Lewys Dwnn (described as 'Deputy Herald of Arms for Wales in the 16th century'), meets genealogical proof standards.> I would refer Mr. Ball to "Heraldic Visitations of Wales and part of the Marches between 1586 and 1613" by Lewys Dwnn, and more specifically to "Lewys Dwnn and the Parsons" Vol II, pp. 248-249. The pedigrees shown on pp. 248-249 were written in 1594 FOR Mr. Dwnn by my ancestor Cadwalader ap Rhydderch the nephew of Syr John ap David, who incidentally was named as one of the "overseers" in Syr John's Will. I consider this pedigree as a continuation of my "paper trail." The further back in time one goes data is certainly questionable. Good hunting, Lloyd Ellis ************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com