Bryn Thanks very much for the example. I'm sorry if I took your words out of context, but I think it's worth raising the subject, as the application of the patronymic system to women is rarely fully discussed. Thanks to Lloyd for the extract from the Brecon wills, which of course are indexed by first name, because patronymics are in use (which I had temporarily forgotten!). There is no indication of the marital state of the people listed, though I guess it's unlikely that they are all single! Carla "vz" is an a common abbreviation for "verch", an alternative spelling of "ferch" - daughter. "z" was often used as an abbreviation for "ch", for instance the name Rudderch may be shown as "Ruddz". Its impossible to give a date for changes from Welsh naming practices to English - it took place gradually from around the fifteenth century to the nineteenth, though most people seem to have been using surnames by the end of the eighteenth century. It happened first among the gentry, who had largely abandoned patronymics by the end of the seventeenth century. Patronymics tended to die out earlier in towns, where there might be a substantial English presence, than in the country, where people tended to preserve old traditions. I have found examples of patronymics in use as late as the 1851 census, though without "ap" and "ferch" being used. Anna