Anna Brueton <bruetons@anoeth.demon.co.uk> wrote: I have found examples of patronymics in use as late as the 1851 census, though without "ap" and "ferch" being used. =============== Dear Anna, I'm particularly interested in your reference to occurrences of patronymics in the 1851 census. Could you possibly give a specific reference to one of the examples you've encountered, so that I can look up the census image and possibly cite it in a research paper? I've encountered several instances of patronymics on gravestones, but none as late as mid 19th century. I included one early to mid 18th century example on my 'Images of Wales' feature on St Baglan's Church, Baglan, GLA. Although it refers to male individuals rather than females, it may be of interest to listers. The inscription reads: -------------------------------------------- HERE lieth the body of John David who departed this life the 10th day of October 1708 Aged 78 yrs HERE also lieth the body of Joan ye wife of the above John David who de- parted this life ye 1st day of November 1726 Aged 87 years HERE also lieth the body of David John, Son of the said John David who departed this life the 24th day of July 1745 Aged 71 years Also William John, Grandson of the said DAVID JOHN who departed.... ------------------------------------------------ (the rest of the inscription was below ground level) Kind regards, John -------------------- John Ball, Brecon, Mid-Wales, UK E-mail: john@jlb2005.plus.com John's Homepage: http://www.jlb2005.plus.com/ Images of Wales: http://www.jlb2005.plus.com/walespic/ Welsh Family History Archive: http://www.jlb2005.plus.com/wales/ GENUKI Breconshire Maintainer: http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/BRE/ Joint Administrator - Powys (& BRE/MGY/RAD) RootsWeb mailing lists

Dear John Happy to send you the reference, but not tonight! I'm off to Carmarthen Archives early tomorrow morning, so will send the references when I get back. One parish was Llanddeusant, Carmarthenshire; I seem to thnk it was a Charles Morgan whose offspring were [forename] + Charles, but it could have been the other way round! I have other examples in that parish - for instance Anne Howell named her several illegitimate children by Morgan Davies [forename] + Morgan in the 1841 census, but by 1851 - when the couple were married - the children had acquired the surname Davies. Kind regards Anna :59 03/03/08 -0000, John Ball wrote: >Anna Brueton <bruetons@anoeth.demon.co.uk> wrote: >I have found examples of patronymics in use as late as the 1851 census, >though without "ap" and "ferch" being used. >=============== > >Dear Anna, > >I'm particularly interested in your reference to occurrences of patronymics >in the 1851 census. Could you possibly give a specific reference to one of >the examples you've encountered, so that I can look up the census image and >possibly cite it in a research paper? > >I've encountered several instances of patronymics on gravestones, but none >as late as mid 19th century. I included one early to mid 18th century >example on my 'Images of Wales' feature on St Baglan's Church, Baglan, GLA. >Although it refers to male individuals rather than females, it may be of >interest to listers. The inscription reads: >-------------------------------------------- > HERE > lieth the body of John David > who departed this life the 10th > day of October 1708 Aged 78 yrs > HERE > also lieth the body of Joan ye wife > of the above John David who de- >parted this life ye 1st day of November > 1726 Aged 87 years > HERE also lieth the body of > David John, Son of the said John >David who departed this life the 24th > day of July 1745 Aged 71 years > Also William John, Grandson of the > said DAVID JOHN who departed.... >------------------------------------------------ >(the rest of the inscription was below ground level) > >Kind regards, > > >John >-------------------- >John Ball, Brecon, Mid-Wales, UK >E-mail: john@jlb2005.plus.com >John's Homepage: http://www.jlb2005.plus.com/ >Images of Wales: http://www.jlb2005.plus.com/walespic/ >Welsh Family History Archive: http://www.jlb2005.plus.com/wales/ > >GENUKI Breconshire Maintainer: http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/BRE/ >Joint Administrator - Powys (& BRE/MGY/RAD) RootsWeb mailing lists > > >=================== >Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2005.plus.com/powyslist.htm > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Dear John, I have some information which might be of interest to you in providing evidence for the persistence of elements of the patronymic system in parts of Wales in the 1851 census - and, possibly, even later. In the 1841 census of Merionethshire, six of the sons of my ancestor Edward Howell (or Howel) (who died in 1829 in Dolgellau) are to be found together on the family farm, with their mother. They are all listed with the surname Edwards (and what baptismal records I have found use the patronymic 'Edward', with their father being listed as Edward Howel); and Edwards is the surname which persisted. (Their mother is listed under her maiden surname, which is probably also a patronymic.) The oldest son, Howel/Howell, is already married, and on his own farm, also in Merionethshire. where he and his wife are also listed under the surname Edwards. However, their only son, Edward, is listed as Edward Howell (this is not the maiden surname of Howel's wife, whose father I think was probably Thomas Jones). In 1851, the family generally has the surname Edwards, but once again the entry for Howel Edwards' branch is intriguing. He and his wife are listed as Edwards, but their son Edward and his wife are 'Howels', while the son of Edward is 'Howel Edwards'. In 1861 we again have Howel Edwards, with his son Edward Howells (now 'Edward Jones Howells'); there are now three grandchildren: Howel Edwards, Thomas Jones Howells, and Catherine Edwards. We find the same names in 1871, in an entry which confirms that these three are all the children of Edward Jones Howells. By 1881, Edward Howells and his son Thomas and daughter Catherine are all listed as Howells. If you would like further documentation of this please contact me direct: I'd be happy to provide it. Best wishes Shirley Vinall On Mar 3 2008, John Ball wrote: >Anna Brueton <bruetons@anoeth.demon.co.uk> wrote: >I have found examples of patronymics in use as late as the 1851 census, >though without "ap" and "ferch" being used. >=============== > >Dear Anna, > > I'm particularly interested in your reference to occurrences of > patronymics in the 1851 census. Could you possibly give a specific > reference to one of the examples you've encountered, so that I can look > up the census image and possibly cite it in a research paper? > > I've encountered several instances of patronymics on gravestones, but > none as late as mid 19th century. I included one early to mid 18th > century example on my 'Images of Wales' feature on St Baglan's Church, > Baglan, GLA. Although it refers to male individuals rather than females, > it may be of interest to listers. The inscription reads: > -------------------------------------------- > HERE > lieth the body of John David > who departed this life the 10th > day of October 1708 Aged 78 yrs > HERE > also lieth the body of Joan ye wife > of the above John David who de- >parted this life ye 1st day of November > 1726 Aged 87 years > HERE also lieth the body of > David John, Son of the said John >David who departed this life the 24th > day of July 1745 Aged 71 years > Also William John, Grandson of the > said DAVID JOHN who departed.... >------------------------------------------------ >(the rest of the inscription was below ground level) > >Kind regards, > > >John >-------------------- >John Ball, Brecon, Mid-Wales, UK >E-mail: john@jlb2005.plus.com >John's Homepage: http://www.jlb2005.plus.com/ >Images of Wales: http://www.jlb2005.plus.com/walespic/ >Welsh Family History Archive: http://www.jlb2005.plus.com/wales/ > >GENUKI Breconshire Maintainer: http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/BRE/ >Joint Administrator - Powys (& BRE/MGY/RAD) RootsWeb mailing lists > > >=================== >Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2005.plus.com/powyslist.htm > > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send > an email to POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Dear Shirley, Many thanks for providing further examples of patronymic naming persisting well into the 19th century. If I find I need more documentation I will contact you again. Kind regards, John -------------------- John Ball, Brecon, Mid-Wales, UK E-mail: john@jlb2005.plus.com John's Homepage: http://www.jlb2005.plus.com/ Images of Wales: http://www.jlb2005.plus.com/walespic/ Welsh Family History Archive: http://www.jlb2005.plus.com/wales/ GENUKI Breconshire Maintainer: http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/BRE/ Joint Administrator - Powys (& BRE/MGY/RAD) RootsWeb mailing lists ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dr Shirley Vinall" <s.w.vinall@reading.ac.uk> To: <powys@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2008 9:23 PM Subject: Re: [POWYS] Patronymics Dear John, I have some information which might be of interest to you in providing evidence for the persistence of elements of the patronymic system in parts of Wales in the 1851 census - and, possibly, even later. In the 1841 census of Merionethshire, six of the sons of my ancestor Edward Howell (or Howel) (who died in 1829 in Dolgellau) are to be found together on the family farm, with their mother. They are all listed with the surname Edwards (and what baptismal records I have found use the patronymic 'Edward', with their father being listed as Edward Howel); and Edwards is the surname which persisted. (Their mother is listed under her maiden surname, which is probably also a patronymic.) The oldest son, Howel/Howell, is already married, and on his own farm, also in Merionethshire. where he and his wife are also listed under the surname Edwards. However, their only son, Edward, is listed as Edward Howell (this is not the maiden surname of Howel's wife, whose father I think was probably Thomas Jones). In 1851, the family generally has the surname Edwards, but once again the entry for Howel Edwards' branch is intriguing. He and his wife are listed as Edwards, but their son Edward and his wife are 'Howels', while the son of Edward is 'Howel Edwards'. In 1861 we again have Howel Edwards, with his son Edward Howells (now 'Edward Jones Howells'); there are now three grandchildren: Howel Edwards, Thomas Jones Howells, and Catherine Edwards. We find the same names in 1871, in an entry which confirms that these three are all the children of Edward Jones Howells. By 1881, Edward Howells and his son Thomas and daughter Catherine are all listed as Howells. If you would like further documentation of this please contact me direct: I'd be happy to provide it. Best wishes Shirley Vinall