Hello List, Can someone tell me at what point the practice of using a mother's surname, or perhaps a father's forename, as a child's surname started to wane? Was this practice popular all over Wales, or in certain areas more than others? Thank you.Tomi

Powys List Activity Stats - January 2013 Dear Listers, In January 2013, 49 messages were distributed via the Powys List - just under the annual monthly average of 52. Currently there are 413 members subscribed to the Powys List, one more than last month's figure. The monthly and annual stats from 1998 to the present are displayed on the Powys List webpage at www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm#stats Kind regards, John -------------------- John Ball, Brecon, Mid-Wales, UK Administrator - Powys RootsWeb mailing list E-mail: john@jlb2011.co.uk Personal Website: http://www.jlb2011.co.uk/ Images of Wales: http://www.jlb2011.co.uk/walespic/ Welsh Family History Archive: http://www.jlb2011.co.uk/wales/ Joint Webmaster - Breconshire Local & Family History Society http://www.blfhs.c.uk/ GENUKI Breconshire Maintainer: http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/BRE/ =================== Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Yes, Robert, Olewydd is still in use, Hilary -----Original Message----- From: powys-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:powys-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of John Ball Sent: 30 January 2013 08:04 To: Robert Price; powys@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [POWYS] Olewydd Congregational Chapel Garth, Breconshire Robert Price wrote: Does anyone out there know if MI's exist for Olewydd Chapel Garth?? Is the Chapel still being used?? I did a google search and came up with very little. =============== Dear Robert, The report of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales, available in its 'Coflein' database, is dated July 2011. It makes no mention of the chapel being disused at that time (see http://tinyurl.com/b8yhef9) The Google StreetView camera photographed the chapel in November 2008. The chapel and its graveyard look well kept: certainly not neglected (see http://goo.gl/maps/KGta3) Kind regards, John -------------------- John Ball, Brecon, Mid-Wales, UK E-mail: john@jlb2011.co.uk Personal Homepage: http://www.jlb2011.co.uk Images of Wales: http://www.jlb2011.co.uk/walespic/ Welsh Family History Archive: http://www.jlb2011.co.uk/wales/ Joint Webmaster, Breconshire Local & Family History Society http://www.blfhs.co.uk/ GENUKI Breconshire Maintainer: http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/BRE/ Administrator - Powys (& BRE/MGY/RAD) RootsWeb mailing lists =================== Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Robert Price wrote: Does anyone out there know if MI's exist for Olewydd Chapel Garth?? Is the Chapel still being used?? I did a google search and came up with very little. =============== Dear Robert, The report of the Royal Commission on Ancient and Historical Monuments of Wales, available in its 'Coflein' database, is dated July 2011. It makes no mention of the chapel being disused at that time (see http://tinyurl.com/b8yhef9) The Google StreetView camera photographed the chapel in November 2008. The chapel and its graveyard look well kept: certainly not neglected (see http://goo.gl/maps/KGta3) Kind regards, John -------------------- John Ball, Brecon, Mid-Wales, UK E-mail: john@jlb2011.co.uk Personal Homepage: http://www.jlb2011.co.uk Images of Wales: http://www.jlb2011.co.uk/walespic/ Welsh Family History Archive: http://www.jlb2011.co.uk/wales/ Joint Webmaster, Breconshire Local & Family History Society http://www.blfhs.co.uk/ GENUKI Breconshire Maintainer: http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/BRE/ Administrator - Powys (& BRE/MGY/RAD) RootsWeb mailing lists

Hi Anna & D Jones I'm all for the revival of the Welsh language and culture. The problem seems to be that we all need benchmarks in this world by which we can navigate our way around and if those benchmarks wobble or become fuzzy then our navigation does, too. Where I live the majority of the people around have Asian origins - the world has changed from the medieval situation where everyone living in a parish or a specific area shared a common language and similar roots and culture. Trains, motor vehicles and aircraft have all played their part in bringing this about - and many of the early rails, by which this change originally happened, were made in Wales! The break up of traditional counties and localities and the renaming of them has always been going on and will always continue into the future. Communities grow and decline, along with their needs and the services to be provided - rather than exist as static entities, frozen in time. However, often people like to retain and continue to use historic county and parish names. Isn't there also some move afoot to try and redefine the voting districts, or overall number of MPs, to help swing the next general election in one direction or another - away from the present near-even balance? So, these redefinitions are sometimes promoted for political reasons rather than any other. It's the job of the historian to try and identify how and when these changes have happened and place them in context. I think the problem with authoritarian systems, that have to be adhered to one way or another, is that individual thought is stiffled and then when things turn upside down, as has currently happened with the world economy, there is no mechanism in place to help pull things back into balance again. All the obedient people look to the next obedient person to come up with a solution and, of course, they equally can't think of what to do - because it's not in their nature to look outside the box and suggest a solution. The issue of altering spellings, though, for a name which remains fundamentally the same, is not the same as the process of full renaming to suit new boundaries. Hopefully this is a debate which can be aired without people taking exception, except you sort of get the impression of people being huddled into corners, here and there, going "shush" to each other! Best regards Clive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Anna Brueton" <bruetons@anoeth.demon.co.uk> To: "D JONES" <djedoric1958@btinternet.com>; <powys@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2013 11:54 AM Subject: [POWYS] Welsh place names > While I would agree that in principle we should use the "correct" > spellings, I don't think it's as simple as D Jones > suggests. Standard alphabets are a creation of modern times, and > didn't exist in either Welsh or English in Edward I's day. So today > the "correct" spelling is that of modern Welsh orthography - for > example Conwy or Llanelli. But few people would use Caerdydd or > Llanymddyfri for Cardiff and Llandovery when speaking or writing in > English. > > Clive Gardener's query concerned the spelling of Llangatwg. On the > face of it, that's the correct spelling. But the church is named for > the saint who elsewhere is written Cadoc, Cadog, and Cattwg. So > there's clearly no consistent ancient correct spelling here. > > There is a further problem with the names of institutions which > incorporate an anglicised place name, for example Poor Law > Unions. It's surely unhistorical to modernise their names - eg > Brecknock PLU to Brecon PLU - though it pains me to write Llandilo > for Llandeilo! > > Anna > > At 11:02 29/01/2013, you wrote: >>I think the problem with changes in the Welsh language goes back to >>the days of Edward 1st when the English ruled the land of Wales and >>gave everything their version of names and places etc. What we in >>Wales have done is to revive the original, and I may say correct >>spellings. For instance you won't find Conway anywhere now as it has >>been changed to the Welsh spelling of Conwy and quite rightly so. >>You won't find the county of Caernavonshire either as it has been >>spilit iuup into the two ancient Welsh counties of Conwy and >>Gwynedd. So, the rule is, if in Wales, please spell it our way and >>not your own. >> >> >> >>________________________________ >> From: Clive Gardener <clive-gardener@tiscali.co.uk> >>To: powys@rootsweb.com >>Sent: Monday, 28 January 2013, 17:22 >>Subject: Re: [POWYS] POWYS Digest, Vol 8, Issue 14 >> >>Hi Helen >> >>Thanks for your reply. >> >>I suppose my frustration at spellings being changed is that when I was 3 >>years old, or so, I was made to sit down in a chair, with a writing table >>in >>front of me, and write out my surname until I got the spelling right! And >>even today other people still seem to make the same mistake that I used to >>and was told off for - by writing 'Gardner' instead of 'Gardener'. So, >>when >>I learn a name I try to be consistent thereafter with the way that I spell >>it! >> >>Early family holidays were to Conway, but just try finding a place with >>this >>name on modern maps today! You can't. To make sure that I wasn't >>misremembering earlier times I put the word 'Conway' into 'collectables' >>on >>eBay and, lo and behold, there they are - all the picture postcards with >>the >>original spelling! >> >>Your solution of being faithful to the original quotations seems the best >>one. When I refer to the 'Mynydd Llangatwg Cave Mangement (Advisory) >>Committee' then I always use the spelling as chosen by the organisation in >>the late 1980s, because this is the true name by which it was formed. >>However, all the scientific papers and writings about the mountain use the >>form that can be found on Ordnance Survey maps until very recently: >>'Mynydd >>Llangattwg'. When I explained the reason for the difference in the way >>that >>I spell the name in different contexts, to the editor of a magazine, he >>missed the point I was making and merely referred to the fact that the >>magazine has a preferred house style, which he would use. >> >>I like hearing the correct pronounciation for Welsh names and trying to >>pronounce them correctly myself! >> >>Most of the people I've met in South Wales since 1980 seem to be like you >>in >>that they were not brought up to speak Welsh, so the revival of the >>language, by making knowledge of it mandatory for being employed in key >>positions, must have been quite a shock to many people living and working >>in >>South Wales. One person I know at the National Museum of Wales told me >>that >>the people who were benefitting most were those well trained in the Welsh >>language, who can command high fees for translating official documents >>into >>Welsh! >> >>I guess the lasting changes are the ones which people adopt voluntarily, >>because they fit and work best. >> >>Best wishes >> >>Clive >> >> >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Helen Forder" <helenforder@homecall.co.uk> >>To: <powys@rootsweb.com> >>Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 8:56 AM >>Subject: Re: [POWYS] POWYS Digest, Vol 8, Issue 14 >> >> >> > Hello Clive, >> > Thanks for your interesting remarks. I am Welsh through and through, >> > apart >> > from the language which, although my mother was a Welsh speaker, she >> > would >> > not use Welsh with us children! 'It would hold you back' was the >> > thinking >> > in >> > those days. I have tried to make up for it by having Welsh lessons >> > later >> > in >> > life, but regret very much that I am not fluent! I agree that it is >> > probably >> > best to use the Welsh version in Welsh text, and the more common >> > 'English' >> > spellings in English text. I did try to use 'Llanofer' throughout in my >> > book, but realised I was being a bit pedantic, so changed it to >> > 'Llanover', >> > except in quotations where the Welsh was used. It is such a beautiful >> > language! >> > Best wishes, >> > Helen >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: powys-request@rootsweb.com >> > Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 8:00 AM >> > To: powys@rootsweb.com >> > Subject: POWYS Digest, Vol 8, Issue 14 >> > >> > >> > >> > Today's Topics: >> > >> > 1. Re: POWYS Digest, Vol 8, Issue 12 (Clive Gardener) >> > >> > >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > >> > Message: 1 >> > Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2013 23:27:40 -0000 >> > From: "Clive Gardener" <clive-gardener@tiscali.co.uk> >> > Subject: Re: [POWYS] POWYS Digest, Vol 8, Issue 12 >> > To: <powys@rootsweb.com> >> > Message-ID: <3F03B61063EA4B2192FF52E598F89AEA@bkbulhbx> >> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; >> > reply-type=original >> > >> > Hi Helen >> > >> > Thanks for your reply! >> > >> > I've had a problem with Llangattock when referring to 'Mynydd >> > Llangattwg' >> > because apparently the 'tt' doesn't exist in grammatically correct >> > Welsh >> > and >> > so there was a sudden change to the spelling 'Llangatwg' during the >> > late >> > 1980s. However, I've always felt that names are how you come to know >> > people >> > and places and that they don't always align with linguistic purity. >> > There >> > are places in England with ancient names, the logic for which has long >> > since >> > been lost. Say, for example, Folkestone, supposed to have migrated from >> > Folcanstan and Lyme Regis, from Lim or Lym. Once the name is changed >> > then >> > so >> > too does the 'feeling' that goes with it. >> > >> > I suppose it is quite an ironical fact that the person who championed >> > Welsh >> > culture should have her name changed by the Welsh linguists, too! >> > >> > Along the same lines, 'The Trevil Rail Road Company' should really >> > become >> > the 'The Trefil Rail Road Company' - except it can't, because the >> > company >> > no >> > longer exists and all the historical records use the spelling 'Trevil'! >> > >> > Perhaps the simplest answer would be to use 'pure Welsh' spellings in >> > Welsh >> > texts and 'English' spellings in English texts? >> > >> > I'm sure this isn't a debate that will end any time soon! >> > >> > Best regards >> > >> > Clive >> > >> > >> > >> > ----- Original Message ----- >> > From: "Helen Forder" <helenforder@homecall.co.uk> >> > To: <powys@rootsweb.com> >> > Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2013 9:08 AM >> > Subject: Re: [POWYS] POWYS Digest, Vol 8, Issue 12 >> > >> > >> >> Hello Clive, when I first made my website I was trying to go back to >> >> the >> >> Welsh 'Llanofer' and the logo was made for me. The Llanover family >> >> prefer >> >> to >> >> use 'Llanover' when writing in English, as that is how Lady Llanover >> >> spelt >> >> it! I have given up the struggle to always use 'Llanofer'. Pity >> >> really! >> >> >> >> >> >> Message: 1 >> >> Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 09:03:53 -0000 >> >> From: "Helen Forder" <helenforder@homecall.co.uk> >> >> Subject: [POWYS] Lord and Lady Llanover (Gwenynen Gwent and Big Ben) >> >> To: <POWYS@rootsweb.com> >> >> Message-ID: <1E50479DCEBB446FB5E884782ABEB76F@OwnerPC> >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >> >> >> >> I have been researching the lives of Lord and Lady Llanover for >> >> several >> >> years and have put much of it online at >> >> http://augustaladyllanover.coffeecup.com >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> >> >> Message: 2 >> >> Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 20:24:14 -0000 >> >> From: "Clive Gardener" <clive-gardener@tiscali.co.uk> >> >> Subject: Re: [POWYS] Lord and Lady Llanover (Gwenynen Gwent and Big >> >> Ben) >> >> To: <powys@rootsweb.com> >> >> Message-ID: <5348ACE3E19C452F86689E0D04C07FCF@bkbulhbx> >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; >> >> reply-type=original >> >> >> >> Just wondering why you use a different spelling for 'Llanover' in your >> >> e-mail as compared against the website? >> >> >> >> Apparently, "The estate has been within the same family since the >> >> eighteenth >> >> century . . ." : http://www.llanover.com/ >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> =================== >> >> Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: >> >> www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> >> POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> >> quotes >> >> in the subject and the body of the message >> > >> > >> > >> > ------------------------------ >> > >> > To contact the POWYS list administrator, send an email to >> > POWYS-admin@rootsweb.com. >> > >> > To post a message to the POWYS mailing list, send an email to >> > POWYS@rootsweb.com. >> > >> > __________________________________________________________ >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > POWYS-request@rootsweb.com >> > with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the >> > body >> > of the >> > email with no additional text. >> > >> > >> > End of POWYS Digest, Vol 8, Issue 14 >> > ************************************ >> > >> > >> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > Text inserted by Panda GP 2013: >> > >> > This message has NOT been classified as spam. If it is unsolicited mail >> > (spam), click on the following link to reclassify it: >> > >> http://localhost:6083/Panda?ID=pav_935&SPAM=true&path=C:\Windows\system32\config\systemprofile\AppData\Local\Panda%20Security\Panda%20Global%20Protection%202013\AntiSpam >> > >> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> > >> > >> > =================== >> > Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: >> > www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm >> > >> > ------------------------------- >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> > quotes >> > in the subject and the body of the message >> >>=================== >>Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm >> >>------------------------------- >>To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>=================== >>Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm >> >>------------------------------- >>To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > =================== > Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message

Hello, Does anyone out there know if MI's exist for Olewydd Chapel Garth?? Is the Chapel still being used?? I did a google search and came up with very little. Thanks Robert Price

While I would agree that in principle we should use the "correct" spellings, I don't think it's as simple as D Jones suggests. Standard alphabets are a creation of modern times, and didn't exist in either Welsh or English in Edward I's day. So today the "correct" spelling is that of modern Welsh orthography - for example Conwy or Llanelli. But few people would use Caerdydd or Llanymddyfri for Cardiff and Llandovery when speaking or writing in English. Clive Gardener's query concerned the spelling of Llangatwg. On the face of it, that's the correct spelling. But the church is named for the saint who elsewhere is written Cadoc, Cadog, and Cattwg. So there's clearly no consistent ancient correct spelling here. There is a further problem with the names of institutions which incorporate an anglicised place name, for example Poor Law Unions. It's surely unhistorical to modernise their names - eg Brecknock PLU to Brecon PLU - though it pains me to write Llandilo for Llandeilo! Anna At 11:02 29/01/2013, you wrote: >I think the problem with changes in the Welsh language goes back to >the days of Edward 1st when the English ruled the land of Wales and >gave everything their version of names and places etc. What we in >Wales have done is to revive the original, and I may say correct >spellings. For instance you won't find Conway anywhere now as it has >been changed to the Welsh spelling of Conwy and quite rightly so. >You won't find the county of Caernavonshire either as it has been >spilit iuup into the two ancient Welsh counties of Conwy and >Gwynedd. So, the rule is, if in Wales, please spell it our way and >not your own. > > > >________________________________ > From: Clive Gardener <clive-gardener@tiscali.co.uk> >To: powys@rootsweb.com >Sent: Monday, 28 January 2013, 17:22 >Subject: Re: [POWYS] POWYS Digest, Vol 8, Issue 14 > >Hi Helen > >Thanks for your reply. > >I suppose my frustration at spellings being changed is that when I was 3 >years old, or so, I was made to sit down in a chair, with a writing table in >front of me, and write out my surname until I got the spelling right! And >even today other people still seem to make the same mistake that I used to >and was told off for - by writing 'Gardner' instead of 'Gardener'. So, when >I learn a name I try to be consistent thereafter with the way that I spell >it! > >Early family holidays were to Conway, but just try finding a place with this >name on modern maps today! You can't. To make sure that I wasn't >misremembering earlier times I put the word 'Conway' into 'collectables' on >eBay and, lo and behold, there they are - all the picture postcards with the >original spelling! > >Your solution of being faithful to the original quotations seems the best >one. When I refer to the 'Mynydd Llangatwg Cave Mangement (Advisory) >Committee' then I always use the spelling as chosen by the organisation in >the late 1980s, because this is the true name by which it was formed. >However, all the scientific papers and writings about the mountain use the >form that can be found on Ordnance Survey maps until very recently: 'Mynydd >Llangattwg'. When I explained the reason for the difference in the way that >I spell the name in different contexts, to the editor of a magazine, he >missed the point I was making and merely referred to the fact that the >magazine has a preferred house style, which he would use. > >I like hearing the correct pronounciation for Welsh names and trying to >pronounce them correctly myself! > >Most of the people I've met in South Wales since 1980 seem to be like you in >that they were not brought up to speak Welsh, so the revival of the >language, by making knowledge of it mandatory for being employed in key >positions, must have been quite a shock to many people living and working in >South Wales. One person I know at the National Museum of Wales told me that >the people who were benefitting most were those well trained in the Welsh >language, who can command high fees for translating official documents into >Welsh! > >I guess the lasting changes are the ones which people adopt voluntarily, >because they fit and work best. > >Best wishes > >Clive > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Helen Forder" <helenforder@homecall.co.uk> >To: <powys@rootsweb.com> >Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 8:56 AM >Subject: Re: [POWYS] POWYS Digest, Vol 8, Issue 14 > > > > Hello Clive, > > Thanks for your interesting remarks. I am Welsh through and through, apart > > from the language which, although my mother was a Welsh speaker, she would > > not use Welsh with us children! 'It would hold you back' was the thinking > > in > > those days. I have tried to make up for it by having Welsh lessons later > > in > > life, but regret very much that I am not fluent! I agree that it is > > probably > > best to use the Welsh version in Welsh text, and the more common 'English' > > spellings in English text. I did try to use 'Llanofer' throughout in my > > book, but realised I was being a bit pedantic, so changed it to > > 'Llanover', > > except in quotations where the Welsh was used. It is such a beautiful > > language! > > Best wishes, > > Helen > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: powys-request@rootsweb.com > > Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 8:00 AM > > To: powys@rootsweb.com > > Subject: POWYS Digest, Vol 8, Issue 14 > > > > > > > > Today's Topics: > > > > 1. Re: POWYS Digest, Vol 8, Issue 12 (Clive Gardener) > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Message: 1 > > Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2013 23:27:40 -0000 > > From: "Clive Gardener" <clive-gardener@tiscali.co.uk> > > Subject: Re: [POWYS] POWYS Digest, Vol 8, Issue 12 > > To: <powys@rootsweb.com> > > Message-ID: <3F03B61063EA4B2192FF52E598F89AEA@bkbulhbx> > > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > > reply-type=original > > > > Hi Helen > > > > Thanks for your reply! > > > > I've had a problem with Llangattock when referring to 'Mynydd Llangattwg' > > because apparently the 'tt' doesn't exist in grammatically correct Welsh > > and > > so there was a sudden change to the spelling 'Llangatwg' during the late > > 1980s. However, I've always felt that names are how you come to know > > people > > and places and that they don't always align with linguistic purity. There > > are places in England with ancient names, the logic for which has long > > since > > been lost. Say, for example, Folkestone, supposed to have migrated from > > Folcanstan and Lyme Regis, from Lim or Lym. Once the name is changed then > > so > > too does the 'feeling' that goes with it. > > > > I suppose it is quite an ironical fact that the person who championed > > Welsh > > culture should have her name changed by the Welsh linguists, too! > > > > Along the same lines, 'The Trevil Rail Road Company' should really become > > the 'The Trefil Rail Road Company' - except it can't, because the company > > no > > longer exists and all the historical records use the spelling 'Trevil'! > > > > Perhaps the simplest answer would be to use 'pure Welsh' spellings in > > Welsh > > texts and 'English' spellings in English texts? > > > > I'm sure this isn't a debate that will end any time soon! > > > > Best regards > > > > Clive > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Helen Forder" <helenforder@homecall.co.uk> > > To: <powys@rootsweb.com> > > Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2013 9:08 AM > > Subject: Re: [POWYS] POWYS Digest, Vol 8, Issue 12 > > > > > >> Hello Clive, when I first made my website I was trying to go back to the > >> Welsh 'Llanofer' and the logo was made for me. The Llanover family prefer > >> to > >> use 'Llanover' when writing in English, as that is how Lady Llanover > >> spelt > >> it! I have given up the struggle to always use 'Llanofer'. Pity really! > >> > >> > >> Message: 1 > >> Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 09:03:53 -0000 > >> From: "Helen Forder" <helenforder@homecall.co.uk> > >> Subject: [POWYS] Lord and Lady Llanover (Gwenynen Gwent and Big Ben) > >> To: <POWYS@rootsweb.com> > >> Message-ID: <1E50479DCEBB446FB5E884782ABEB76F@OwnerPC> > >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > >> > >> I have been researching the lives of Lord and Lady Llanover for several > >> years and have put much of it online at > >> http://augustaladyllanover.coffeecup.com > >> > >> ------------------------------ > >> > >> Message: 2 > >> Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 20:24:14 -0000 > >> From: "Clive Gardener" <clive-gardener@tiscali.co.uk> > >> Subject: Re: [POWYS] Lord and Lady Llanover (Gwenynen Gwent and Big > >> Ben) > >> To: <powys@rootsweb.com> > >> Message-ID: <5348ACE3E19C452F86689E0D04C07FCF@bkbulhbx> > >> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > >> reply-type=original > >> > >> Just wondering why you use a different spelling for 'Llanover' in your > >> e-mail as compared against the website? > >> > >> Apparently, "The estate has been within the same family since the > >> eighteenth > >> century . . ." : http://www.llanover.com/ > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> =================== > >> Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm > >> > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > >> in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > > To contact the POWYS list administrator, send an email to > > POWYS-admin@rootsweb.com. > > > > To post a message to the POWYS mailing list, send an email to > > POWYS@rootsweb.com. > > > > __________________________________________________________ > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > POWYS-request@rootsweb.com > > with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the body > > of the > > email with no additional text. > > > > > > End of POWYS Digest, Vol 8, Issue 14 > > ************************************ > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Text inserted by Panda GP 2013: > > > > This message has NOT been classified as spam. If it is unsolicited mail > > (spam), click on the following link to reclassify it: > > > http://localhost:6083/Panda?ID=pav_935&SPAM=true&path=C:\Windows\system32\config\systemprofile\AppData\Local\Panda%20Security\Panda%20Global%20Protection%202013\AntiSpam > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > =================== > > Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > > in the subject and the body of the message > >=================== >Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >quotes in the subject and the body of the message >=================== >Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I think the problem with changes in the Welsh language goes back to the days of Edward 1st when the English ruled the land of Wales and gave everything their version of names and places etc. What we in Wales have done is to revive the original, and I may say correct spellings. For instance you won't find Conway anywhere now as it has been changed to the Welsh spelling of Conwy and quite rightly so. You won't find the county of Caernavonshire either as it has been spilit iuup into the two ancient Welsh counties of Conwy and Gwynedd. So, the rule is, if in Wales, please spell it our way and not your own. ________________________________ From: Clive Gardener <clive-gardener@tiscali.co.uk> To: powys@rootsweb.com Sent: Monday, 28 January 2013, 17:22 Subject: Re: [POWYS] POWYS Digest, Vol 8, Issue 14 Hi Helen Thanks for your reply. I suppose my frustration at spellings being changed is that when I was 3 years old, or so, I was made to sit down in a chair, with a writing table in front of me, and write out my surname until I got the spelling right! And even today other people still seem to make the same mistake that I used to and was told off for - by writing 'Gardner' instead of 'Gardener'. So, when I learn a name I try to be consistent thereafter with the way that I spell it! Early family holidays were to Conway, but just try finding a place with this name on modern maps today! You can't. To make sure that I wasn't misremembering earlier times I put the word 'Conway' into 'collectables' on eBay and, lo and behold, there they are - all the picture postcards with the original spelling! Your solution of being faithful to the original quotations seems the best one. When I refer to the 'Mynydd Llangatwg Cave Mangement (Advisory) Committee' then I always use the spelling as chosen by the organisation in the late 1980s, because this is the true name by which it was formed. However, all the scientific papers and writings about the mountain use the form that can be found on Ordnance Survey maps until very recently: 'Mynydd Llangattwg'. When I explained the reason for the difference in the way that I spell the name in different contexts, to the editor of a magazine, he missed the point I was making and merely referred to the fact that the magazine has a preferred house style, which he would use. I like hearing the correct pronounciation for Welsh names and trying to pronounce them correctly myself! Most of the people I've met in South Wales since 1980 seem to be like you in that they were not brought up to speak Welsh, so the revival of the language, by making knowledge of it mandatory for being employed in key positions, must have been quite a shock to many people living and working in South Wales. One person I know at the National Museum of Wales told me that the people who were benefitting most were those well trained in the Welsh language, who can command high fees for translating official documents into Welsh! I guess the lasting changes are the ones which people adopt voluntarily, because they fit and work best. Best wishes Clive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Helen Forder" <helenforder@homecall.co.uk> To: <powys@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 8:56 AM Subject: Re: [POWYS] POWYS Digest, Vol 8, Issue 14 > Hello Clive, > Thanks for your interesting remarks. I am Welsh through and through, apart > from the language which, although my mother was a Welsh speaker, she would > not use Welsh with us children! 'It would hold you back' was the thinking > in > those days. I have tried to make up for it by having Welsh lessons later > in > life, but regret very much that I am not fluent! I agree that it is > probably > best to use the Welsh version in Welsh text, and the more common 'English' > spellings in English text. I did try to use 'Llanofer' throughout in my > book, but realised I was being a bit pedantic, so changed it to > 'Llanover', > except in quotations where the Welsh was used. It is such a beautiful > language! > Best wishes, > Helen > > -----Original Message----- > From: powys-request@rootsweb.com > Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 8:00 AM > To: powys@rootsweb.com > Subject: POWYS Digest, Vol 8, Issue 14 > > > > Today's Topics: > >  1. Re: POWYS Digest, Vol 8, Issue 12 (Clive Gardener) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2013 23:27:40 -0000 > From: "Clive Gardener" <clive-gardener@tiscali.co.uk> > Subject: Re: [POWYS] POWYS Digest, Vol 8, Issue 12 > To: <powys@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID: <3F03B61063EA4B2192FF52E598F89AEA@bkbulhbx> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > Hi Helen > > Thanks for your reply! > > I've had a problem with Llangattock when referring to 'Mynydd Llangattwg' > because apparently the 'tt' doesn't exist in grammatically correct Welsh > and > so there was a sudden change to the spelling 'Llangatwg' during the late > 1980s. However, I've always felt that names are how you come to know > people > and places and that they don't always align with linguistic purity. There > are places in England with ancient names, the logic for which has long > since > been lost. Say, for example, Folkestone, supposed to have migrated from > Folcanstan and Lyme Regis, from Lim or Lym. Once the name is changed then > so > too does the 'feeling' that goes with it. > > I suppose it is quite an ironical fact that the person who championed > Welsh > culture should have her name changed by the Welsh linguists, too! > > Along the same lines, 'The Trevil Rail Road Company' should really become > the 'The Trefil Rail Road Company' - except it can't, because the company > no > longer exists and all the historical records use the spelling 'Trevil'! > > Perhaps the simplest answer would be to use 'pure Welsh' spellings in > Welsh > texts and 'English' spellings in English texts? > > I'm sure this isn't a debate that will end any time soon! > > Best regards > > Clive > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Helen Forder" <helenforder@homecall.co.uk> > To: <powys@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2013 9:08 AM > Subject: Re: [POWYS] POWYS Digest, Vol 8, Issue 12 > > >> Hello Clive, when I first made my website I was trying to go back to the >> Welsh 'Llanofer' and the logo was made for me. The Llanover family prefer >> to >> use 'Llanover' when writing in English, as that is how Lady Llanover >> spelt >> it! I have given up the struggle to always use 'Llanofer'. Pity really! >> >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 09:03:53 -0000 >> From: "Helen Forder" <helenforder@homecall.co.uk> >> Subject: [POWYS] Lord and Lady Llanover (Gwenynen Gwent and Big Ben) >> To: <POWYS@rootsweb.com> >> Message-ID: <1E50479DCEBB446FB5E884782ABEB76F@OwnerPC> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >> >> I have been researching the lives of Lord and Lady Llanover for several >> years and have put much of it online at >> http://augustaladyllanover.coffeecup.com >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 2 >> Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 20:24:14 -0000 >> From: "Clive Gardener" <clive-gardener@tiscali.co.uk> >> Subject: Re: [POWYS] Lord and Lady Llanover (Gwenynen Gwent and Big >> Ben) >> To: <powys@rootsweb.com> >> Message-ID: <5348ACE3E19C452F86689E0D04C07FCF@bkbulhbx> >> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; >> reply-type=original >> >> Just wondering why you use a different spelling for 'Llanover' in your >> e-mail as compared against the website? >> >> Apparently, "The estate has been within the same family since the >> eighteenth >> century . . ." : http://www.llanover.com/ >> >> >> >> >> >> =================== >> Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes >> in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------ > > To contact the POWYS list administrator, send an email to > POWYS-admin@rootsweb.com. > > To post a message to the POWYS mailing list, send an email to > POWYS@rootsweb.com. > > __________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > POWYS-request@rootsweb.com > with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the body > of the > email with no additional text. > > > End of POWYS Digest, Vol 8, Issue 14 > ************************************ > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Text inserted by Panda GP 2013: > > This message has NOT been classified as spam. If it is unsolicited mail > (spam), click on the following link to reclassify it: > http://localhost:6083/Panda?ID=pav_935&SPAM=true&path=C:\Windows\system32\config\systemprofile\AppData\Local\Panda%20Security\Panda%20Global%20Protection%202013\AntiSpam > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > =================== > Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message =================== Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Helen Thanks for your reply. I suppose my frustration at spellings being changed is that when I was 3 years old, or so, I was made to sit down in a chair, with a writing table in front of me, and write out my surname until I got the spelling right! And even today other people still seem to make the same mistake that I used to and was told off for - by writing 'Gardner' instead of 'Gardener'. So, when I learn a name I try to be consistent thereafter with the way that I spell it! Early family holidays were to Conway, but just try finding a place with this name on modern maps today! You can't. To make sure that I wasn't misremembering earlier times I put the word 'Conway' into 'collectables' on eBay and, lo and behold, there they are - all the picture postcards with the original spelling! Your solution of being faithful to the original quotations seems the best one. When I refer to the 'Mynydd Llangatwg Cave Mangement (Advisory) Committee' then I always use the spelling as chosen by the organisation in the late 1980s, because this is the true name by which it was formed. However, all the scientific papers and writings about the mountain use the form that can be found on Ordnance Survey maps until very recently: 'Mynydd Llangattwg'. When I explained the reason for the difference in the way that I spell the name in different contexts, to the editor of a magazine, he missed the point I was making and merely referred to the fact that the magazine has a preferred house style, which he would use. I like hearing the correct pronounciation for Welsh names and trying to pronounce them correctly myself! Most of the people I've met in South Wales since 1980 seem to be like you in that they were not brought up to speak Welsh, so the revival of the language, by making knowledge of it mandatory for being employed in key positions, must have been quite a shock to many people living and working in South Wales. One person I know at the National Museum of Wales told me that the people who were benefitting most were those well trained in the Welsh language, who can command high fees for translating official documents into Welsh! I guess the lasting changes are the ones which people adopt voluntarily, because they fit and work best. Best wishes Clive ----- Original Message ----- From: "Helen Forder" <helenforder@homecall.co.uk> To: <powys@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 8:56 AM Subject: Re: [POWYS] POWYS Digest, Vol 8, Issue 14 > Hello Clive, > Thanks for your interesting remarks. I am Welsh through and through, apart > from the language which, although my mother was a Welsh speaker, she would > not use Welsh with us children! 'It would hold you back' was the thinking > in > those days. I have tried to make up for it by having Welsh lessons later > in > life, but regret very much that I am not fluent! I agree that it is > probably > best to use the Welsh version in Welsh text, and the more common 'English' > spellings in English text. I did try to use 'Llanofer' throughout in my > book, but realised I was being a bit pedantic, so changed it to > 'Llanover', > except in quotations where the Welsh was used. It is such a beautiful > language! > Best wishes, > Helen > > -----Original Message----- > From: powys-request@rootsweb.com > Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 8:00 AM > To: powys@rootsweb.com > Subject: POWYS Digest, Vol 8, Issue 14 > > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: POWYS Digest, Vol 8, Issue 12 (Clive Gardener) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2013 23:27:40 -0000 > From: "Clive Gardener" <clive-gardener@tiscali.co.uk> > Subject: Re: [POWYS] POWYS Digest, Vol 8, Issue 12 > To: <powys@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID: <3F03B61063EA4B2192FF52E598F89AEA@bkbulhbx> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > Hi Helen > > Thanks for your reply! > > I've had a problem with Llangattock when referring to 'Mynydd Llangattwg' > because apparently the 'tt' doesn't exist in grammatically correct Welsh > and > so there was a sudden change to the spelling 'Llangatwg' during the late > 1980s. However, I've always felt that names are how you come to know > people > and places and that they don't always align with linguistic purity. There > are places in England with ancient names, the logic for which has long > since > been lost. Say, for example, Folkestone, supposed to have migrated from > Folcanstan and Lyme Regis, from Lim or Lym. Once the name is changed then > so > too does the 'feeling' that goes with it. > > I suppose it is quite an ironical fact that the person who championed > Welsh > culture should have her name changed by the Welsh linguists, too! > > Along the same lines, 'The Trevil Rail Road Company' should really become > the 'The Trefil Rail Road Company' - except it can't, because the company > no > longer exists and all the historical records use the spelling 'Trevil'! > > Perhaps the simplest answer would be to use 'pure Welsh' spellings in > Welsh > texts and 'English' spellings in English texts? > > I'm sure this isn't a debate that will end any time soon! > > Best regards > > Clive > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Helen Forder" <helenforder@homecall.co.uk> > To: <powys@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2013 9:08 AM > Subject: Re: [POWYS] POWYS Digest, Vol 8, Issue 12 > > >> Hello Clive, when I first made my website I was trying to go back to the >> Welsh 'Llanofer' and the logo was made for me. The Llanover family prefer >> to >> use 'Llanover' when writing in English, as that is how Lady Llanover >> spelt >> it! I have given up the struggle to always use 'Llanofer'. Pity really! >> >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 09:03:53 -0000 >> From: "Helen Forder" <helenforder@homecall.co.uk> >> Subject: [POWYS] Lord and Lady Llanover (Gwenynen Gwent and Big Ben) >> To: <POWYS@rootsweb.com> >> Message-ID: <1E50479DCEBB446FB5E884782ABEB76F@OwnerPC> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >> >> I have been researching the lives of Lord and Lady Llanover for several >> years and have put much of it online at >> http://augustaladyllanover.coffeecup.com >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 2 >> Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 20:24:14 -0000 >> From: "Clive Gardener" <clive-gardener@tiscali.co.uk> >> Subject: Re: [POWYS] Lord and Lady Llanover (Gwenynen Gwent and Big >> Ben) >> To: <powys@rootsweb.com> >> Message-ID: <5348ACE3E19C452F86689E0D04C07FCF@bkbulhbx> >> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; >> reply-type=original >> >> Just wondering why you use a different spelling for 'Llanover' in your >> e-mail as compared against the website? >> >> Apparently, "The estate has been within the same family since the >> eighteenth >> century . . ." : http://www.llanover.com/ >> >> >> >> >> >> =================== >> Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes >> in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------ > > To contact the POWYS list administrator, send an email to > POWYS-admin@rootsweb.com. > > To post a message to the POWYS mailing list, send an email to > POWYS@rootsweb.com. > > __________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > POWYS-request@rootsweb.com > with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the body > of the > email with no additional text. > > > End of POWYS Digest, Vol 8, Issue 14 > ************************************ > > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Text inserted by Panda GP 2013: > > This message has NOT been classified as spam. If it is unsolicited mail > (spam), click on the following link to reclassify it: > http://localhost:6083/Panda?ID=pav_935&SPAM=true&path=C:\Windows\system32\config\systemprofile\AppData\Local\Panda%20Security\Panda%20Global%20Protection%202013\AntiSpam > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > =================== > Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message

Hello Clive, Thanks for your interesting remarks. I am Welsh through and through, apart from the language which, although my mother was a Welsh speaker, she would not use Welsh with us children! 'It would hold you back' was the thinking in those days. I have tried to make up for it by having Welsh lessons later in life, but regret very much that I am not fluent! I agree that it is probably best to use the Welsh version in Welsh text, and the more common 'English' spellings in English text. I did try to use 'Llanofer' throughout in my book, but realised I was being a bit pedantic, so changed it to 'Llanover', except in quotations where the Welsh was used. It is such a beautiful language! Best wishes, Helen -----Original Message----- From: powys-request@rootsweb.com Sent: Monday, January 28, 2013 8:00 AM To: powys@rootsweb.com Subject: POWYS Digest, Vol 8, Issue 14 Today's Topics: 1. Re: POWYS Digest, Vol 8, Issue 12 (Clive Gardener) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2013 23:27:40 -0000 From: "Clive Gardener" <clive-gardener@tiscali.co.uk> Subject: Re: [POWYS] POWYS Digest, Vol 8, Issue 12 To: <powys@rootsweb.com> Message-ID: <3F03B61063EA4B2192FF52E598F89AEA@bkbulhbx> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Hi Helen Thanks for your reply! I've had a problem with Llangattock when referring to 'Mynydd Llangattwg' because apparently the 'tt' doesn't exist in grammatically correct Welsh and so there was a sudden change to the spelling 'Llangatwg' during the late 1980s. However, I've always felt that names are how you come to know people and places and that they don't always align with linguistic purity. There are places in England with ancient names, the logic for which has long since been lost. Say, for example, Folkestone, supposed to have migrated from Folcanstan and Lyme Regis, from Lim or Lym. Once the name is changed then so too does the 'feeling' that goes with it. I suppose it is quite an ironical fact that the person who championed Welsh culture should have her name changed by the Welsh linguists, too! Along the same lines, 'The Trevil Rail Road Company' should really become the 'The Trefil Rail Road Company' - except it can't, because the company no longer exists and all the historical records use the spelling 'Trevil'! Perhaps the simplest answer would be to use 'pure Welsh' spellings in Welsh texts and 'English' spellings in English texts? I'm sure this isn't a debate that will end any time soon! Best regards Clive Tel/Fax: 020 7987 8820 www.secret-bottletop.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Helen Forder" <helenforder@homecall.co.uk> To: <powys@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2013 9:08 AM Subject: Re: [POWYS] POWYS Digest, Vol 8, Issue 12 > Hello Clive, when I first made my website I was trying to go back to the > Welsh 'Llanofer' and the logo was made for me. The Llanover family prefer > to > use 'Llanover' when writing in English, as that is how Lady Llanover spelt > it! I have given up the struggle to always use 'Llanofer'. Pity really! > > > Message: 1 > Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 09:03:53 -0000 > From: "Helen Forder" <helenforder@homecall.co.uk> > Subject: [POWYS] Lord and Lady Llanover (Gwenynen Gwent and Big Ben) > To: <POWYS@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID: <1E50479DCEBB446FB5E884782ABEB76F@OwnerPC> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > I have been researching the lives of Lord and Lady Llanover for several > years and have put much of it online at > http://augustaladyllanover.coffeecup.com > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 20:24:14 -0000 > From: "Clive Gardener" <clive-gardener@tiscali.co.uk> > Subject: Re: [POWYS] Lord and Lady Llanover (Gwenynen Gwent and Big > Ben) > To: <powys@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID: <5348ACE3E19C452F86689E0D04C07FCF@bkbulhbx> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > Just wondering why you use a different spelling for 'Llanover' in your > e-mail as compared against the website? > > Apparently, "The estate has been within the same family since the > eighteenth > century . . ." : http://www.llanover.com/ > > > > > > =================== > Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------ To contact the POWYS list administrator, send an email to POWYS-admin@rootsweb.com. To post a message to the POWYS mailing list, send an email to POWYS@rootsweb.com. __________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the body of the email with no additional text. End of POWYS Digest, Vol 8, Issue 14 ************************************ --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Text inserted by Panda GP 2013: This message has NOT been classified as spam. If it is unsolicited mail (spam), click on the following link to reclassify it: http://localhost:6083/Panda?ID=pav_935&SPAM=true&path=C:\Windows\system32\config\systemprofile\AppData\Local\Panda%20Security\Panda%20Global%20Protection%202013\AntiSpam ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi Helen Thanks for your reply! I've had a problem with Llangattock when referring to 'Mynydd Llangattwg' because apparently the 'tt' doesn't exist in grammatically correct Welsh and so there was a sudden change to the spelling 'Llangatwg' during the late 1980s. However, I've always felt that names are how you come to know people and places and that they don't always align with linguistic purity. There are places in England with ancient names, the logic for which has long since been lost. Say, for example, Folkestone, supposed to have migrated from Folcanstan and Lyme Regis, from Lim or Lym. Once the name is changed then so too does the 'feeling' that goes with it. I suppose it is quite an ironical fact that the person who championed Welsh culture should have her name changed by the Welsh linguists, too! Along the same lines, 'The Trevil Rail Road Company' should really become the 'The Trefil Rail Road Company' - except it can't, because the company no longer exists and all the historical records use the spelling 'Trevil'! Perhaps the simplest answer would be to use 'pure Welsh' spellings in Welsh texts and 'English' spellings in English texts? I'm sure this isn't a debate that will end any time soon! Best regards Clive Tel/Fax: 020 7987 8820 www.secret-bottletop.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Helen Forder" <helenforder@homecall.co.uk> To: <powys@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2013 9:08 AM Subject: Re: [POWYS] POWYS Digest, Vol 8, Issue 12 > Hello Clive, when I first made my website I was trying to go back to the > Welsh 'Llanofer' and the logo was made for me. The Llanover family prefer > to > use 'Llanover' when writing in English, as that is how Lady Llanover spelt > it! I have given up the struggle to always use 'Llanofer'. Pity really! > > > Message: 1 > Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 09:03:53 -0000 > From: "Helen Forder" <helenforder@homecall.co.uk> > Subject: [POWYS] Lord and Lady Llanover (Gwenynen Gwent and Big Ben) > To: <POWYS@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID: <1E50479DCEBB446FB5E884782ABEB76F@OwnerPC> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > I have been researching the lives of Lord and Lady Llanover for several > years and have put much of it online at > http://augustaladyllanover.coffeecup.com > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 20:24:14 -0000 > From: "Clive Gardener" <clive-gardener@tiscali.co.uk> > Subject: Re: [POWYS] Lord and Lady Llanover (Gwenynen Gwent and Big > Ben) > To: <powys@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID: <5348ACE3E19C452F86689E0D04C07FCF@bkbulhbx> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > Just wondering why you use a different spelling for 'Llanover' in your > e-mail as compared against the website? > > Apparently, "The estate has been within the same family since the > eighteenth > century . . ." : http://www.llanover.com/ > > > > > > =================== > Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message

Many thanks for the links Marti - excellent views. Cheers, Jill -----Original Message----- From: powys-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:powys-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Martin Briscoe Sent: 26 January 2013 12:10 To: powys@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [POWYS] Parish records on Find My Past .... 1st and2nd EditionOS Map My mistake! It was late when I was looking them. The entry is in register is probably Cwmbwch to fit with those two - the "w" is a bit of a scribble! I will have another look on the NLW, I did not see many maps last night but it was late. The loss of the old-maps site is a nuisance, I tend to use this site as a gateway to arrange of map sources http://www.oldmapsonline.org/ http://www.oldmapsonline.org/#bbox=-3.46433,52.110571,-3.432273,52.1243&q=&d atefrom=1000&dateto=2010 http://goo.gl/oTvby Not been down that way for some time so perhaps to have a trip in the Summer. The family did not seem wealthy so it could have been something small.

Hi Tomi, I have had a high percentage of the red 'no records' on FMP although I had checked that the parish has not been redacted and that I have the correct spelling of the parish on their master lists at http://www.findmypast.co.uk/content/news/wales-june12. There have even been failures when I know from a full transcription of a particular PR that the record is there.   Sometimes I have found that a 'no record' is on the same page as another after a successful search. It seems that their system is unable to cope with demand at certain times. Best wishes, Mary ________________________________ From: Tomi Larson <tomil23@hotmail.com> To: Powys Rootsweb <powys@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, 26 January 2013, 13:57 Subject: Re: [POWYS] Parish records on Find My Past I just tried to access the Parish records for Gwent again this morning - for the third day still can't do it. I get church records from other places, but not England and Wales. I have a World subscription - well guess I have to wait to see if my email to customer service gets an answer. Very frustrated that I don't see anything about upgrading or some records might not be available for a while.....Anyone else having trouble? Tomi > > Message: 4 > Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2013 00:45:46 -0000 > From: "Martin Briscoe" <martin@mbriscoe.me.uk> > Subject: Re: [POWYS] Parish records on Find My Past > To: <powys@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID: <008201cdfb5e$7a975c90$6fc615b0$@me.uk> > Content-Type: text/plain;    charset="us-ascii" > > I just brought up the Baptism of my Great Great Grandfather in Maesmynis in > 1826 both as transcription and image. > > They have it flagged as being Updated so perhaps they were part way through > that earlier. > > They have also added some Irish records I think so that could have been in > progress > > Martin Briscoe > Fort William > martin@mbriscoe.me.uk > > > -----Original Message----- > From: powys-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:powys-bounces@rootsweb.com] On > Behalf Of Tomi Larson > Sent: 26 January 2013 00:14 > To: Powys Rootsweb > Subject: [POWYS] Parish records on Find My Past > > Hello, In the past two days I have not been able to view any Parish records > on Find My Past. Is anyone else having difficulty? I have a 'world > subscription' and have had access. > Tomi                             =================== Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

My mistake! It was late when I was looking them. The entry is in register is probably Cwmbwch to fit with those two - the "w" is a bit of a scribble! I will have another look on the NLW, I did not see many maps last night but it was late. The loss of the old-maps site is a nuisance, I tend to use this site as a gateway to arrange of map sources http://www.oldmapsonline.org/ http://www.oldmapsonline.org/#bbox=-3.46433,52.110571,-3.432273,52.1243&q=&d atefrom=1000&dateto=2010 http://goo.gl/oTvby Not been down that way for some time so perhaps to have a trip in the Summer. The family did not seem wealthy so it could have been something small. Martin Briscoe Fort William martin@mbriscoe.me.uk -----Original Message----- From: powys-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:powys-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of John Ball Sent: 26 January 2013 11:04 To: powys@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [POWYS] Parish records on Find My Past .... 1st and 2nd EditionOS Map Martin Briscoe wrote: ...my Great Great Grandfather [snip] is shown as born at Cwmbach Isaf, Maesmynis. I can see Cwm-bach Fach and Fawr on the modern map but not Isaf. I take it the NLW does not have the 1st and 2nd edition OS maps online (especially the 25")? I can't see them on their website. Here in Scotland we are rather spoilt with all of these and many more online at the NLS. ================ Dear Martin, I can find Cwm-bwch-fawr and Cwm-bwch-fach on modern OS maps, but not Cwmbach. They are at 301469,246827 and 301871,247084 respectively. Until recently we could view high resolution images of early OS maps covering all of England and Wales free, at the www.old-maps.co.uk website. The maps are still there, but are now only available as reduced size images and navigation of the maps is poor. To obtain a full-sized image now requires payment. The website currently has the following OS maps available for Maesmynis: DATE SCALE 1889 - 1:2,500 1891 - 1:10,560 1904 - 1:2,500 1906 - 1:10,560 1952 - 1:10,560 1965 - 1:10,560 1975 - 1:2,500 1978 - 1:10,000 but note that the area covered by each map is quite small. You can order any map as a PDF download (£11 - £16), as a print (£22.50 - £27.50), or as a framed print (£45 - £50). See www.old-maps.co.uk/maps.html?gallery=1 for full pricing details. Frustratingly, the answers in the FAQ section are based on the previous version of the website, where much better access to the maps was available. I've written several times via the 'Contact Us' facility but have never had a response. I'm looking at the 1:2,500-scale OS map published in 1889 right now, and I can only see the two Cwm-bwch properties. I cannot see any identified as Cwmbach. Kind regards, John -------------------- John Ball, Brecon, Mid-Wales, UK E-mail: john@jlb2011.co.uk Personal Homepage: http://www.jlb2011.co.uk Images of Wales: http://www.jlb2011.co.uk/walespic/ Welsh Family History Archive: http://www.jlb2011.co.uk/wales/ Joint Webmaster, Breconshire Local & Family History Society http://www.blfhs.co.uk/ GENUKI Breconshire Maintainer: http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/BRE/ Administrator - Powys (& BRE/MGY/RAD) RootsWeb mailing lists =================== Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Martin Briscoe wrote: ...my Great Great Grandfather [snip] is shown as born at Cwmbach Isaf, Maesmynis. I can see Cwm-bach Fach and Fawr on the modern map but not Isaf. I take it the NLW does not have the 1st and 2nd edition OS maps online (especially the 25")? I can't see them on their website. Here in Scotland we are rather spoilt with all of these and many more online at the NLS. ================ Dear Martin, I can find Cwm-bwch-fawr and Cwm-bwch-fach on modern OS maps, but not Cwmbach. They are at 301469,246827 and 301871,247084 respectively. Until recently we could view high resolution images of early OS maps covering all of England and Wales free, at the www.old-maps.co.uk website. The maps are still there, but are now only available as reduced size images and navigation of the maps is poor. To obtain a full-sized image now requires payment. The website currently has the following OS maps available for Maesmynis: DATE SCALE 1889 - 1:2,500 1891 - 1:10,560 1904 - 1:2,500 1906 - 1:10,560 1952 - 1:10,560 1965 - 1:10,560 1975 - 1:2,500 1978 - 1:10,000 but note that the area covered by each map is quite small. You can order any map as a PDF download (£11 - £16), as a print (£22.50 - £27.50), or as a framed print (£45 - £50). See www.old-maps.co.uk/maps.html?gallery=1 for full pricing details. Frustratingly, the answers in the FAQ section are based on the previous version of the website, where much better access to the maps was available. I've written several times via the 'Contact Us' facility but have never had a response. I'm looking at the 1:2,500-scale OS map published in 1889 right now, and I can only see the two Cwm-bwch properties. I cannot see any identified as Cwmbach. Kind regards, John -------------------- John Ball, Brecon, Mid-Wales, UK E-mail: john@jlb2011.co.uk Personal Homepage: http://www.jlb2011.co.uk Images of Wales: http://www.jlb2011.co.uk/walespic/ Welsh Family History Archive: http://www.jlb2011.co.uk/wales/ Joint Webmaster, Breconshire Local & Family History Society http://www.blfhs.co.uk/ GENUKI Breconshire Maintainer: http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/BRE/ Administrator - Powys (& BRE/MGY/RAD) RootsWeb mailing lists

Hello Clive, when I first made my website I was trying to go back to the Welsh 'Llanofer' and the logo was made for me. The Llanover family prefer to use 'Llanover' when writing in English, as that is how Lady Llanover spelt it! I have given up the struggle to always use 'Llanofer'. Pity really! Message: 1 Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 09:03:53 -0000 From: "Helen Forder" <helenforder@homecall.co.uk> Subject: [POWYS] Lord and Lady Llanover (Gwenynen Gwent and Big Ben) To: <POWYS@rootsweb.com> Message-ID: <1E50479DCEBB446FB5E884782ABEB76F@OwnerPC> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I have been researching the lives of Lord and Lady Llanover for several years and have put much of it online at http://augustaladyllanover.coffeecup.com ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2013 20:24:14 -0000 From: "Clive Gardener" <clive-gardener@tiscali.co.uk> Subject: Re: [POWYS] Lord and Lady Llanover (Gwenynen Gwent and Big Ben) To: <powys@rootsweb.com> Message-ID: <5348ACE3E19C452F86689E0D04C07FCF@bkbulhbx> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Just wondering why you use a different spelling for 'Llanover' in your e-mail as compared against the website? Apparently, "The estate has been within the same family since the eighteenth century . . ." : http://www.llanover.com/

I just tried to access the Parish records for Gwent again this morning - for the third day still can't do it. I get church records from other places, but not England and Wales. I have a World subscription - well guess I have to wait to see if my email to customer service gets an answer. Very frustrated that I don't see anything about upgrading or some records might not be available for a while.....Anyone else having trouble? Tomi > > Message: 4 > Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2013 00:45:46 -0000 > From: "Martin Briscoe" <martin@mbriscoe.me.uk> > Subject: Re: [POWYS] Parish records on Find My Past > To: <powys@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID: <008201cdfb5e$7a975c90$6fc615b0$@me.uk> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > I just brought up the Baptism of my Great Great Grandfather in Maesmynis in > 1826 both as transcription and image. > > They have it flagged as being Updated so perhaps they were part way through > that earlier. > > They have also added some Irish records I think so that could have been in > progress > > Martin Briscoe > Fort William > martin@mbriscoe.me.uk > > > -----Original Message----- > From: powys-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:powys-bounces@rootsweb.com] On > Behalf Of Tomi Larson > Sent: 26 January 2013 00:14 > To: Powys Rootsweb > Subject: [POWYS] Parish records on Find My Past > > Hello, In the past two days I have not been able to view any Parish records > on Find My Past. Is anyone else having difficulty? I have a 'world > subscription' and have had access. > Tomi

I had the same results as Martin. Margaret New Jersey USA On Fri, Jan 25, 2013 at 7:13 PM, Tomi Larson <tomil23@hotmail.com> wrote: > Hello, In the past two days I have not been able to view any Parish > records on Find My Past. Is anyone else having difficulty? I have a 'world > subscription' and have had access. > Tomi > =================== > Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > -- Luzerne County, Pennsylvania: AMOS, CHARLES, DAVIES, FISHER, HENRY, PRICE, RAUGH/ROUGH, REESE, WAGNER Brecknockshire (Breconshire): HAMON (?) Monmouthshire: AMOS/HAMON, REES Glamorganshire: DAVIS/DAVIES, COLLINS (also Ireland), REESE Cardiganshire: GRIFFITHS, THOMAS Holland and Germany: UPDYKE, DIETRICH, GRANTZ

This prompted me to have another look at my family, previously I just screenshots that I had taken of the films in the archive but the FMP images are better quality. I had overlooked the "abode" where my Great Great Grandfather was shown born and don't think I had looked at it before, only the places on censuses. He is shown as born at Cwmbach Isaf, Maesmynis. I can see Cwm-bach Fach and Fawr on the modern map but not Isaf. I take it the NLW does not have the 1st and 2nd edition OS maps online (especially the 25")? I can't see them on their website. Here in Scotland we are rather spoilt with all of these and many more online at the NLS. Martin Briscoe Fort William martin@mbriscoe.me.uk -----Original Message----- From: powys-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:powys-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Martin Briscoe Sent: 26 January 2013 00:46 To: powys@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [POWYS] Parish records on Find My Past I just brought up the Baptism of my Great Great Grandfather in Maesmynis in 1826 both as transcription and image.

I just brought up the Baptism of my Great Great Grandfather in Maesmynis in 1826 both as transcription and image. They have it flagged as being Updated so perhaps they were part way through that earlier. They have also added some Irish records I think so that could have been in progress Martin Briscoe Fort William martin@mbriscoe.me.uk -----Original Message----- From: powys-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:powys-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Tomi Larson Sent: 26 January 2013 00:14 To: Powys Rootsweb Subject: [POWYS] Parish records on Find My Past Hello, In the past two days I have not been able to view any Parish records on Find My Past. Is anyone else having difficulty? I have a 'world subscription' and have had access. Tomi