Hi Linda,   Sorry I didn't say cheerio to you out in the road but my cousin Neville was tooting at Margaret and her husband, who he plays golf with, and then he spotted me. Gradually my place in Beaufort Society is being confirmed. When people know my family and friends I feel really part of the scene.   I've sent you the details of Wednesday meeting ------ we are missing out as you will see by the last sentence re non-members. It's not unreasonable to ask for £1 entry is it? or would our raffle take up suffer then?   All for now,           Eira ________________________________ From: John Ball <john@jlb2011.co.uk> To: Powys List <powys@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, 4 February 2013, 12:07 Subject: [POWYS] "The Brinore (Bryn Oer) Tramroad" - talk in Brecon 2pm Wed 6 Feb 2013 Dear Listers, The next regular monthly meeting of the Breconshire Local & Family History Society will be held on Wednesday 6th February, at Brecon Public Library, Ship Street, Brecon. The meeting will commence at 2 pm. The main talk, by John Jones, is entitled "The Brinore (Bryn Oer) Tramroad". The speaker will discuss how this early 19th century horse-drawn railway influenced the construction of the Brecknock & Abergavenny Canal. Prior to the main talk, Helen Whyte will give the third in her popular series of short presentations on local family history resources. All are welcome. Entry is free for Society members, and £1.00 for non-members. Kind regards, John ------ John Ball, Brecon, Mid-Wales, UK E-mail: john@jlb2011.co.uk Administrator - Powys (& BRE/MGY/RAD) RootsWeb mailing lists Joint Webmaster, Breconshire Local & Family History Society                 http://www.blfhs.co.uk/ Personal Homepage: http://www.jlb2011.co.uk/ Images of Wales: http://www.jlb2011.co.uk/walespic/ Welsh Family History Archive: http://www.jlb2011.co.uk/wales/ GENUKI Breconshire Maintainer: http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/BRE/ =================== Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Dear Listers, The next regular monthly meeting of the Breconshire Local & Family History Society will be held on Wednesday 6th February, at Brecon Public Library, Ship Street, Brecon. The meeting will commence at 2 pm. The main talk, by John Jones, is entitled "The Brinore (Bryn Oer) Tramroad". The speaker will discuss how this early 19th century horse-drawn railway influenced the construction of the Brecknock & Abergavenny Canal. Prior to the main talk, Helen Whyte will give the third in her popular series of short presentations on local family history resources. All are welcome. Entry is free for Society members, and £1.00 for non-members. Kind regards, John ------ John Ball, Brecon, Mid-Wales, UK E-mail: john@jlb2011.co.uk Administrator - Powys (& BRE/MGY/RAD) RootsWeb mailing lists Joint Webmaster, Breconshire Local & Family History Society http://www.blfhs.co.uk/ Personal Homepage: http://www.jlb2011.co.uk Images of Wales: http://www.jlb2011.co.uk/walespic/ Welsh Family History Archive: http://www.jlb2011.co.uk/wales/ GENUKI Breconshire Maintainer: http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/BRE/

Hi David, Many thanks for looking up your notes and all those references. I will follow them up. Derbyshire fits with other members of the Bage family I've seen in other sources. Best wishes, Mary ________________________________ From: David Hopkins - Arakiel Genealogy <david@olyeo.co.uk> To: powys@rootsweb.com Sent: Sunday, 3 February 2013, 21:30 Subject: Re: [POWYS] Welsh names Having thought on it further, a few details from the article, other articles and possibly by word of mouth have come to mind. I seem to remember that after Wales joined the Union, c. 1534, the Earl of Leicester acquired a lot of land in Montgomeryshire; and rather than have the 'barbaric Welsh' as tenants on his farm, he brought in stock from his estates in England. If I remember correctly, these were predominately around Trefeglwys, Llandinam and Llanidloes? This caused quite a stir and in Chapman's Great Session transcripts there are numerous 'racially' motivated cases. In my notes I have this: Dated 9 January 1581: Leicester appointed tenancy to the following people. Wosencroft age 60 Llanidloes Twp John Wilson of Llandinam Twp age 44 George Ashton Llanidloes Twp age 55 Ralph Marple Llangurid Twp age 60 Thomas Cooper of Llandinam age 43 One of the witnesses was Nicholas Bennett who held tenancy from Earl of Leicester in townships of Hengywnewydd and Dethenydd in parish of Llandinam. In Chapman's Great Session transcripts there are some references to where these English came from and Debyshire seems to be a considerable source. I've seen quite a lot of tension regarding the importation of English families "stealing" farms from the Welsh. One of my ancestors or relatives, Humphrey Cureton was murdered in Guilsfield around 1597 for being English. This family moved from around Wem, Shropshire and I presume moved freely after buying land there. On 03/02/13 21:17, David Hopkins - Arakiel Genealogy wrote: > I have not researched Monmouthshire, but given that it is considered > sometimes as part of England, it will undoubtedly be a place where > patronymics died out earlier. > > You can check yourself by looking at some registers. There may be > printed ones on archive.org. FindMyPast has most Welsh PR images and an > index. > > Hearth taxes would be another good source. I think there are 6 or so for > Wales that have been published and at least two of these are online. > > > David > > > On 03/02/13 20:34, Tomi Larson wrote: >> Hello Venita and others...Considering the observation below, might Monmouthshire be considered one of the places where the patronymics died out earlier than other places?Thanks, Tomi >> >> >>>> Another observation - There were some places in Wales that had large >>>> amounts of English settlement when Wales was join with England in about >>>> 1534 (forget the exact date) and then on. The places where they settled >>>> tend to be the places where patronymics died out the earliest. One such >>>> place is the area around Trefeglwys in Montgomeryshire. >>>> >>>> >>>>> Venita >>                          >> =================== >> Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm >>    >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > =================== > Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm >  > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message =================== Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

At 08:14 AM 4/02/2013, David Hopkins - Arakiel Genealogy wrote: >Second Stages of Tracing Welsh >Ancestry, I think second edition, ed. by John and Sheila Rowlands. I have to say I have not been thoroughly following this thread, but: "Second Stages in Researching Welsh History" edited by John & Sheila Rowlands is now out of print, but second-hand copies are still available. I have at home an earlier book, which is titled "The Surnames of Wales," John & Sheila Rowlands, published by the Federation of Family History Societies 1996, which is an excellent surname book, showing the distribution of surnames throughout the various counties of Wales and also giving the derivation of such surnames. It is still available through Amazon and no doubt other second-hand distributors. Best wishes Graham Melbourne Oz

On 03/02/13 21:59, Katherine Benbow wrote: > Are either of you aware of any particular reasons that Trefelgwys would > draw English settlers in the 1500s and 1600s, other than the Severn running > through the area -- and I understand that traveling and moving by water was > a better way in most situations. > See one of my previous posts. It mentions a connection with the Earl of Leicester, though you will want to check the source book, which is mostly ava. on Google books: http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Z3y6tWHnTlwC&printsec=frontcover&dq=second+stages+in+welsh+ancestry&hl=en&sa=X&ei=h_0OUcmsAcLs0gWtnYHoCQ&ved=0CDYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=second%20stages%20in%20welsh%20ancestry&f=false I have numerous Benbow lines. The information on links to Hereford etc. are interesting.

Having thought on it further, a few details from the article, other articles and possibly by word of mouth have come to mind. I seem to remember that after Wales joined the Union, c. 1534, the Earl of Leicester acquired a lot of land in Montgomeryshire; and rather than have the 'barbaric Welsh' as tenants on his farm, he brought in stock from his estates in England. If I remember correctly, these were predominately around Trefeglwys, Llandinam and Llanidloes? This caused quite a stir and in Chapman's Great Session transcripts there are numerous 'racially' motivated cases. In my notes I have this: Dated 9 January 1581: Leicester appointed tenancy to the following people. Wosencroft age 60 Llanidloes Twp John Wilson of Llandinam Twp age 44 George Ashton Llanidloes Twp age 55 Ralph Marple Llangurid Twp age 60 Thomas Cooper of Llandinam age 43 One of the witnesses was Nicholas Bennett who held tenancy from Earl of Leicester in townships of Hengywnewydd and Dethenydd in parish of Llandinam. In Chapman's Great Session transcripts there are some references to where these English came from and Debyshire seems to be a considerable source. I've seen quite a lot of tension regarding the importation of English families "stealing" farms from the Welsh. One of my ancestors or relatives, Humphrey Cureton was murdered in Guilsfield around 1597 for being English. This family moved from around Wem, Shropshire and I presume moved freely after buying land there. On 03/02/13 21:17, David Hopkins - Arakiel Genealogy wrote: > I have not researched Monmouthshire, but given that it is considered > sometimes as part of England, it will undoubtedly be a place where > patronymics died out earlier. > > You can check yourself by looking at some registers. There may be > printed ones on archive.org. FindMyPast has most Welsh PR images and an > index. > > Hearth taxes would be another good source. I think there are 6 or so for > Wales that have been published and at least two of these are online. > > > David > > > On 03/02/13 20:34, Tomi Larson wrote: >> Hello Venita and others...Considering the observation below, might Monmouthshire be considered one of the places where the patronymics died out earlier than other places?Thanks, Tomi >> >> >>>> Another observation - There were some places in Wales that had large >>>> amounts of English settlement when Wales was join with England in about >>>> 1534 (forget the exact date) and then on. The places where they settled >>>> tend to be the places where patronymics died out the earliest. One such >>>> place is the area around Trefeglwys in Montgomeryshire. >>>> >>>> >>>>> Venita >> >> =================== >> Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > =================== > Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I have not researched Monmouthshire, but given that it is considered sometimes as part of England, it will undoubtedly be a place where patronymics died out earlier. You can check yourself by looking at some registers. There may be printed ones on archive.org. FindMyPast has most Welsh PR images and an index. Hearth taxes would be another good source. I think there are 6 or so for Wales that have been published and at least two of these are online. David On 03/02/13 20:34, Tomi Larson wrote: > Hello Venita and others...Considering the observation below, might Monmouthshire be considered one of the places where the patronymics died out earlier than other places?Thanks, Tomi > > >>> Another observation - There were some places in Wales that had large >>> amounts of English settlement when Wales was join with England in about >>> 1534 (forget the exact date) and then on. The places where they settled >>> tend to be the places where patronymics died out the earliest. One such >>> place is the area around Trefeglwys in Montgomeryshire. >>> >>> >>>> Venita > > =================== > Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

On 03/02/13 19:30, Mary Z wrote: > Hi David, > > If you have still have references to the sources that you mentioned I would be very keen to have them. The Newtown section of 1671 Hearth Tax of Montgomeryshire @ http://home.freeuk.net/montgensoc/pages/1671_hearth_tax_Newtown.htm The book was called something like Second Stages of Tracing Welsh Ancestry, I think second edition, ed. by John and Sheila Rowlands. > > > ________________________________ > From: David Hopkins - Arakiel Genealogy <david@olyeo.co.uk> > To: powys@rootsweb.com > Sent: Sunday, 3 February 2013, 16:07 > Subject: Re: [POWYS] Welsh names > > Wrong person. > > About Trefeglwys. This is based on transcriptions of Murrary Chapman. I > forget the name of the books - the Great Sessions ones. I have also read > an essay based on these, which goes into where English families were > settled in Mont. and one of the main places was Trefwelws. This would > have affected the culture and can be seen in it's earlier and more > prevalent adoption of patryonomics, compared to neighbouring > Llanbrynmair, Penegoes, and Llangurig, a little to the south. > > > On 03/02/13 11:41, Alun Evans wrote: >> Dear Venita, >> I'd be interested if you have any facts to backup what you said about >> Trefeglws in Montgomeryshire. >> >> Mid-Wales is dominated by the River Severn that flows through all the main >> towns to Shrewsbury and beyond. In the early 1800's the canal was brought as >> far as Newtown (then the "Leeds of Wales") and half a century later the >> Railways were built. The Anglicisation of Mid-Wales took place because of >> this West-East communication along the waterways followed by the Railway but >> not before surely. >> >> >From my knowledge of the area(and I grew up there) villages as close as a >> mile off the main waterway retained the language and their Welshness at >> least until the second-world war. Wales has had a lot of movement from >> England since then and a general dilution of Welshness has taken place just >> about everywhere in Wales (especially second homes) that continues to change >> the character of so many of our Welsh villages. It goes on unabated I regret >> to say. >> >> Alun Evans >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "David Hopkins - Arakiel Genealogy" <david@olyeo.co.uk> >> To: <powys@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2013 9:08 PM >> Subject: Re: [POWYS] Welsh names >> >> >>> On 02/02/13 19:04, Venita wrote: >>>> Legend says that a Welshman was expected to know his fathers' names for >>>> nine generations. Whether or not that is true, I like the idea. ;-) >>> I wish they would have recorded them in the records :D >>> >>> >>> Another observation - There were some places in Wales that had large >>> amounts of English settlement when Wales was join with England in about >>> 1534 (forget the exact date) and then on. The places where they settled >>> tend to be the places where patronymics died out the earliest. One such >>> place is the area around Trefeglwys in Montgomeryshire. >>> >>> >>>> Venita >>>> >>>> Family History and Other Fascinations >>>> venitap.com >>>> >>>> Just Picture It - Wales >>>> http://www.venitap.com/Photolinks/photolinks.html >>>> >>>> >>>> On Feb 2, 2013, at 8:27 AM, David Hopkins - Arakiel Genealogy >>>> <david@olyeo.co.uk> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I'm not sure about using a mother's surname. In the vast majority of >>>>> cases, if not all, this would happen when the child was illegitimate. >>>>> >>>>> Using the father's forename however was the Welsh custom and died out in >>>>> different area in different ways. >>>>> >>>>> Before surnames, Welsh were identified by a patronymic name, e.g. Jevan >>>>> ap Gryffydd ap Batho ap Heylin. Areas changed to using English-style >>>>> surnames by the 1500s, though some nobles adopted surnames earlier. >>>>> Adoption of English surnames happened at different times in different >>>>> places. For example, in Oswestry, Shropshire, most people had adopted >>>>> English surnames by around 1650. However, in the neighbouring parish of >>>>> Llansilin, Denbighshire. I have an ancestor who used his father's >>>>> forename as a surname, born in 1754. >>>>> >>>>> I can't tell you about customs throughout Wales, but I can tell you for >>>>> Montgomeryshire. >>>>> >>>>> http://home.freeuk.net/montgensoc/pages/parish_map.htm >>>>> >>>>> For the western parishes in St Asaph, patronymics continued to c. >>>>> 1700-1750 for many families, in particular the northern parishes. The >>>>> other parishes to the north of St Asaph also continued patronymics for >>>>> some time. However, for most other parishes in Montgomeryshire, English >>>>> surnames were generally adopted c. 1650, bar Llangurig, which is also >>>>> more like 1700-1750. >>>>> >>>>> Also, from my experience, most parishes in Denbighshire seem to be in >>>>> the 1700-1750 window. But my experience there is limited. >>>>> >>>>> Further is should be noted that names like John ap Richard ap LLewellyn, >>>>> may have become: John Richard, or John Richards; and the same person >>>>> could be refered to as such. You may also see people styled: John >>>>> Richard Llewellyn. I have an ancestor who was styled such near 1800, >>>>> from Hirnant, Montgomeryshire. >>>>> >>>>> It is however very difficult to discern if a name is a patronym or >>>>> surname. For example >>>>> >>>>> John Jones, could be John, son of John OR >>>>> John Jones, could be John, son of Henry Jones >>>>> >>>>> Without supplementary documentation, it cannot be proved, and for this >>>>> reason, genealogy can be very difficult in parts of Wales where >>>>> patronymics prevailed. Particularly as there were so few names in use. >>>>> >>>>> Compare: >>>>> >>>>> Denbigh: http://forebears.co.uk/wales/denbighshire#surnames >>>>> Montgomery: http://forebears.co.uk/wales/montgomeryshire#surnames >>>>> Shropshire: http://forebears.co.uk/england/shropshire#surnames >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 02/02/13 14:21, Tomi Larson wrote: >>>>>> Hello List, Can someone tell me at what point the practice of using a >>>>>> mother's surname, or perhaps a father's forename, as a child's surname >>>>>> started to wane? >>>>>> Was this practice popular all over Wales, or in certain areas more than >>>>>> others? >>>>>> Thank you.Tomi >>>>>> =================== >>>>>> Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: >>>>>> www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm >>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>>> POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>> =================== >>>>> Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>> POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> =================== >>>> Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes >>>> in the subject and the body of the message >>> =================== >>> Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes >>> in the subject and the body of the message >> =================== >> Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > =================== > Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > =================== > Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

The Rhondda Valley does contain quite a few people carrying their mother's maiden name. My grandmother's surname RAYMOND was carried by all her children and grandchildren. My great grandmother had lived in America for many years whilst a 'teenager' [np such thing in those days] and I wonder if this is where it was picked up. Cheers, Jill -----Original Message----- From: powys-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:powys-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Tomi Larson Sent: 02 February 2013 14:21 To: Powys Rootsweb Subject: [POWYS] Welsh names Hello List, Can someone tell me at what point the practice of using a mother's surname, or perhaps a father's forename, as a child's surname started to wane? Was this practice popular all over Wales, or in certain areas more than others? Thank you.Tomi =================== Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thanks, David. Somehow I missed that, probably because we were in the car, and I was trying to read things on my "smart phone." (What an expression.) I'd be interested in hearing how you descend from the Benbow family -- which lines, etc. You can reply off-list if you are interested in going into details. I have tested about 12 Benbow men from around the UK, and compared them to our line, which was the Quaker line from Trefeglwys. Our own family group is a perfect match (37/37) to the descendants of the Prestwood Benbow family. I would like to test more Shropshire lines, but some of the ones I have tested are not even from the same haplogroup. And one line is the same haplogroup but still 200-300 years further away in its connection -- and that just may be due to coincidence within the occupational surname and not due to an origin within the same biological family group. *Katherine Benbow * On Sun, Feb 3, 2013 at 7:18 PM, David Hopkins - Arakiel Genealogy < david@olyeo.co.uk> wrote: > On 03/02/13 21:59, Katherine Benbow wrote: > > Are either of you aware of any particular reasons that Trefelgwys would > > draw English settlers in the 1500s and 1600s, other than the Severn > running > > through the area -- and I understand that traveling and moving by water > was > > a better way in most situations. > > > > > See one of my previous posts. It mentions a connection with the Earl of > Leicester, though you will want to check the source book, which is > mostly ava. on Google books: > > > http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Z3y6tWHnTlwC&printsec=frontcover&dq=second+stages+in+welsh+ancestry&hl=en&sa=X&ei=h_0OUcmsAcLs0gWtnYHoCQ&ved=0CDYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=second%20stages%20in%20welsh%20ancestry&f=false > > > I have numerous Benbow lines. The information on links to Hereford etc. > are interesting. > =================== > Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message >

Hi David, If you have still have references to the sources that you mentioned I would be very keen to have them. The Newtown section of 1671 Hearth Tax of Montgomeryshire @ http://home.freeuk.net/montgensoc/pages/1671_hearth_tax_Newtown.htm shows how many English names were in that hundred then. Amongst them was one of my ancestors, Richard Brumnell. Over the watershed in North Radnorshire, about the same time, were other of my ancestors: Bage, Ingram and Greenwood. All married into Welsh families and settled. I would like to find out more about this clustering of English immigrants. Best wishes, Mary ________________________________ From: David Hopkins - Arakiel Genealogy <david@olyeo.co.uk> To: powys@rootsweb.com Sent: Sunday, 3 February 2013, 16:07 Subject: Re: [POWYS] Welsh names Wrong person. About Trefeglwys. This is based on transcriptions of Murrary Chapman. I forget the name of the books - the Great Sessions ones. I have also read an essay based on these, which goes into where English families were settled in Mont. and one of the main places was Trefwelws. This would have affected the culture and can be seen in it's earlier and more prevalent adoption of patryonomics, compared to neighbouring Llanbrynmair, Penegoes, and Llangurig, a little to the south. On 03/02/13 11:41, Alun Evans wrote: > Dear Venita, > I'd be interested if you have any facts to backup what you said about > Trefeglws in Montgomeryshire. > > Mid-Wales is dominated by the River Severn that flows through all the main > towns to Shrewsbury and beyond. In the early 1800's the canal was brought as > far as Newtown (then the "Leeds of Wales") and half a century later the > Railways were built. The Anglicisation of Mid-Wales took place because of > this West-East communication along the waterways followed by the Railway but > not before surely. > > >From my knowledge of the area(and I grew up there) villages as close as a > mile off the main waterway retained the language and their Welshness  at > least until the second-world war. Wales has had a lot of movement from > England since then and a general dilution of Welshness has taken place just > about everywhere in Wales (especially second homes) that continues to change > the character of so many of our Welsh villages. It goes on unabated I regret > to say. > > Alun Evans > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "David Hopkins - Arakiel Genealogy" <david@olyeo.co.uk> > To: <powys@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2013 9:08 PM > Subject: Re: [POWYS] Welsh names > > >> On 02/02/13 19:04, Venita wrote: >>> Legend says that a Welshman was expected to know his fathers' names for >>> nine generations.  Whether or not that is true, I like the idea.  ;-) >> I wish they would have recorded them in the records :D >> >> >> Another observation - There were some places in Wales that had large >> amounts of English settlement when Wales was join with England in about >> 1534 (forget the exact date) and then on. The places where they settled >> tend to be the places where patronymics died out the earliest. One such >> place is the area around Trefeglwys in Montgomeryshire. >> >> >>> Venita >>> >>> Family History and Other Fascinations >>> venitap.com >>> >>> Just Picture It - Wales >>> http://www.venitap.com/Photolinks/photolinks.html >>> >>> >>> On Feb 2, 2013, at 8:27 AM, David Hopkins - Arakiel Genealogy >>> <david@olyeo.co.uk> wrote: >>> >>>> I'm not sure about using a mother's surname. In the vast majority of >>>> cases, if not all, this would happen when the child was illegitimate. >>>> >>>> Using the father's forename however was the Welsh custom and died out in >>>> different area in different ways. >>>> >>>> Before surnames, Welsh were identified by a patronymic name, e.g. Jevan >>>> ap Gryffydd ap Batho ap Heylin. Areas changed to using English-style >>>> surnames by the 1500s, though some nobles adopted surnames earlier. >>>> Adoption of English surnames happened at different times in different >>>> places. For example, in Oswestry, Shropshire, most people had adopted >>>> English surnames by around 1650. However, in the neighbouring parish of >>>> Llansilin, Denbighshire. I have an ancestor who used his father's >>>> forename as a surname, born in 1754. >>>> >>>> I can't tell you about customs throughout Wales, but I can tell you for >>>> Montgomeryshire. >>>> >>>> http://home.freeuk.net/montgensoc/pages/parish_map.htm >>>> >>>> For the western parishes in St Asaph, patronymics continued to c. >>>> 1700-1750 for many families, in particular the northern parishes. The >>>> other parishes to the north of St Asaph also continued patronymics for >>>> some time. However, for most other parishes in Montgomeryshire, English >>>> surnames were generally adopted c. 1650, bar Llangurig, which is also >>>> more like 1700-1750. >>>> >>>> Also, from my experience, most parishes in Denbighshire seem to be in >>>> the 1700-1750 window. But my experience there is limited. >>>> >>>> Further is should be noted that names like John ap Richard ap LLewellyn, >>>> may have become: John Richard, or John Richards; and the same person >>>> could be refered to as such. You may also see people styled: John >>>> Richard Llewellyn. I have an ancestor who was styled such near 1800, >>>> from Hirnant, Montgomeryshire. >>>> >>>> It is however very difficult to discern if a name is a patronym or >>>> surname. For example >>>> >>>> John Jones, could be John, son of John OR >>>> John Jones, could be John, son of Henry Jones >>>> >>>> Without supplementary documentation, it cannot be proved, and for this >>>> reason, genealogy can be very difficult in parts of Wales where >>>> patronymics prevailed. Particularly as there were so few names in use. >>>> >>>> Compare: >>>> >>>> Denbigh: http://forebears.co.uk/wales/denbighshire#surnames >>>> Montgomery: http://forebears.co.uk/wales/montgomeryshire#surnames >>>> Shropshire: http://forebears.co.uk/england/shropshire#surnames >>>> >>>> >>>> On 02/02/13 14:21, Tomi Larson wrote: >>>>> Hello List, Can someone tell me at what point the practice of using a >>>>> mother's surname, or perhaps a father's forename, as a child's surname >>>>> started to wane? >>>>> Was this practice popular all over Wales, or in certain areas more than >>>>> others? >>>>> Thank you.Tomi >>>>> =================== >>>>> Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: >>>>> www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>> POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> =================== >>>> Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> =================== >>> Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes >>> in the subject and the body of the message >> =================== >> Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes >> in the subject and the body of the message > > =================== > Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm >  > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message =================== Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Amazon.uk has them from 3.45 pounds, quite reasonable I think. Eliz On Sun, Feb 3, 2013 at 4:37 PM, Graham Price <genetree@tpg.com.au> wrote: > At 08:14 AM 4/02/2013, David Hopkins - Arakiel Genealogy wrote: >>Second Stages of Tracing Welsh >>Ancestry, I think second edition, ed. by John and Sheila Rowlands. > > I have to say I have not been thoroughly following this thread, but: > "Second Stages in Researching Welsh History" edited by John & Sheila > Rowlands is now out of print, but second-hand copies are still > available. I have at home an earlier book, which is titled "The > Surnames of Wales," John & Sheila Rowlands, published by the > Federation of Family History Societies 1996, which is an excellent > surname book, showing the distribution of surnames throughout the > various counties of Wales and also giving the derivation of such > surnames. It is still available through Amazon and no doubt other > second-hand distributors.

Okay, David and Venita have said some things that attracted my attention. In talking about English families settling in and around Trefeglwys, you would be including my husband's family, which arrived in the area before 1624. DNA tests show the closest relationship is with lines from the counties of Hereford and Worcester. None of the Shropshire lines I've tested have been as closely related. Are either of you aware of any particular reasons that Trefelgwys would draw English settlers in the 1500s and 1600s, other than the Severn running through the area -- and I understand that traveling and moving by water was a better way in most situations. Any other information or references worth sharing would be very welcome. While I have visited the area, I am at a disadvantage, since I live in the US. My husband's ancestor left the area in 1718. *Katherine Benbow **Historian for the Charles Benbow Family* On Sun, Feb 3, 2013 at 11:07 AM, David Hopkins - Arakiel Genealogy < david@olyeo.co.uk> wrote: > Wrong person. > > About Trefeglwys. This is based on transcriptions of Murrary Chapman. I > forget the name of the books - the Great Sessions ones. I have also read > an essay based on these, which goes into where English families were > settled in Mont. and one of the main places was Trefwelws. This would > have affected the culture and can be seen in it's earlier and more > prevalent adoption of patryonomics, compared to neighbouring > Llanbrynmair, Penegoes, and Llangurig, a little to the south. > > > On 03/02/13 11:41, Alun Evans wrote: > > Dear Venita, > > I'd be interested if you have any facts to backup what you said about > > Trefeglws in Montgomeryshire. > > > > Mid-Wales is dominated by the River Severn that flows through all the > main > > towns to Shrewsbury and beyond. In the early 1800's the canal was > brought as > > far as Newtown (then the "Leeds of Wales") and half a century later the > > Railways were built. The Anglicisation of Mid-Wales took place because of > > this West-East communication along the waterways followed by the Railway > but > > not before surely. > > > > >From my knowledge of the area(and I grew up there) villages as close as > a > > mile off the main waterway retained the language and their Welshness at > > least until the second-world war. Wales has had a lot of movement from > > England since then and a general dilution of Welshness has taken place > just > > about everywhere in Wales (especially second homes) that continues to > change > > the character of so many of our Welsh villages. It goes on unabated I > regret > > to say. > > > > Alun Evans > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "David Hopkins - Arakiel Genealogy" <david@olyeo.co.uk> > > To: <powys@rootsweb.com> > > Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2013 9:08 PM > > Subject: Re: [POWYS] Welsh names > > > > > >> On 02/02/13 19:04, Venita wrote: > >>> Legend says that a Welshman was expected to know his fathers' names for > >>> nine generations. Whether or not that is true, I like the idea. ;-) > >> I wish they would have recorded them in the records :D > >> > >> > >> Another observation - There were some places in Wales that had large > >> amounts of English settlement when Wales was join with England in about > >> 1534 (forget the exact date) and then on. The places where they settled > >> tend to be the places where patronymics died out the earliest. One such > >> place is the area around Trefeglwys in Montgomeryshire. > >> > >> > >>> Venita > >>> > >>> Family History and Other Fascinations > >>> venitap.com > >>> > >>> Just Picture It - Wales > >>> http://www.venitap.com/Photolinks/photolinks.html > >>> > >>> > >>> >

I have read that patronymics died out earlier in Monmouthshire than elsewhere in Wales, as it was considered part of England until fairly recently. Sorry I can't put my finger on the source at the moment. Margaret New Jersey, USA On Sun, Feb 3, 2013 at 3:34 PM, Tomi Larson <tomil23@hotmail.com> wrote: > Hello Venita and others...Considering the observation below, might > Monmouthshire be considered one of the places where the patronymics died > out earlier than other places?Thanks, Tomi > > > > > Another observation - There were some places in Wales that had large > > > amounts of English settlement when Wales was join with England in about > > > 1534 (forget the exact date) and then on. The places where they settled > > > tend to be the places where patronymics died out the earliest. One such > > > place is the area around Trefeglwys in Montgomeryshire. > > > > > > > > >> Venita > > > =================== > Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > -- Luzerne County, Pennsylvania: AMOS, CHARLES, DAVIES, FISHER, HENRY, PRICE, RAUGH/ROUGH, REESE, WAGNER Brecknockshire (Breconshire): HAMON (?) Monmouthshire: AMOS/HAMON, REES Glamorganshire: DAVIS/DAVIES, COLLINS (also Ireland), REESE Cardiganshire: GRIFFITHS, THOMAS Holland and Germany: UPDYKE, DIETRICH, GRANTZ

Wrong person. About Trefeglwys. This is based on transcriptions of Murrary Chapman. I forget the name of the books - the Great Sessions ones. I have also read an essay based on these, which goes into where English families were settled in Mont. and one of the main places was Trefwelws. This would have affected the culture and can be seen in it's earlier and more prevalent adoption of patryonomics, compared to neighbouring Llanbrynmair, Penegoes, and Llangurig, a little to the south. On 03/02/13 11:41, Alun Evans wrote: > Dear Venita, > I'd be interested if you have any facts to backup what you said about > Trefeglws in Montgomeryshire. > > Mid-Wales is dominated by the River Severn that flows through all the main > towns to Shrewsbury and beyond. In the early 1800's the canal was brought as > far as Newtown (then the "Leeds of Wales") and half a century later the > Railways were built. The Anglicisation of Mid-Wales took place because of > this West-East communication along the waterways followed by the Railway but > not before surely. > > >From my knowledge of the area(and I grew up there) villages as close as a > mile off the main waterway retained the language and their Welshness at > least until the second-world war. Wales has had a lot of movement from > England since then and a general dilution of Welshness has taken place just > about everywhere in Wales (especially second homes) that continues to change > the character of so many of our Welsh villages. It goes on unabated I regret > to say. > > Alun Evans > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "David Hopkins - Arakiel Genealogy" <david@olyeo.co.uk> > To: <powys@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2013 9:08 PM > Subject: Re: [POWYS] Welsh names > > >> On 02/02/13 19:04, Venita wrote: >>> Legend says that a Welshman was expected to know his fathers' names for >>> nine generations. Whether or not that is true, I like the idea. ;-) >> I wish they would have recorded them in the records :D >> >> >> Another observation - There were some places in Wales that had large >> amounts of English settlement when Wales was join with England in about >> 1534 (forget the exact date) and then on. The places where they settled >> tend to be the places where patronymics died out the earliest. One such >> place is the area around Trefeglwys in Montgomeryshire. >> >> >>> Venita >>> >>> Family History and Other Fascinations >>> venitap.com >>> >>> Just Picture It - Wales >>> http://www.venitap.com/Photolinks/photolinks.html >>> >>> >>> On Feb 2, 2013, at 8:27 AM, David Hopkins - Arakiel Genealogy >>> <david@olyeo.co.uk> wrote: >>> >>>> I'm not sure about using a mother's surname. In the vast majority of >>>> cases, if not all, this would happen when the child was illegitimate. >>>> >>>> Using the father's forename however was the Welsh custom and died out in >>>> different area in different ways. >>>> >>>> Before surnames, Welsh were identified by a patronymic name, e.g. Jevan >>>> ap Gryffydd ap Batho ap Heylin. Areas changed to using English-style >>>> surnames by the 1500s, though some nobles adopted surnames earlier. >>>> Adoption of English surnames happened at different times in different >>>> places. For example, in Oswestry, Shropshire, most people had adopted >>>> English surnames by around 1650. However, in the neighbouring parish of >>>> Llansilin, Denbighshire. I have an ancestor who used his father's >>>> forename as a surname, born in 1754. >>>> >>>> I can't tell you about customs throughout Wales, but I can tell you for >>>> Montgomeryshire. >>>> >>>> http://home.freeuk.net/montgensoc/pages/parish_map.htm >>>> >>>> For the western parishes in St Asaph, patronymics continued to c. >>>> 1700-1750 for many families, in particular the northern parishes. The >>>> other parishes to the north of St Asaph also continued patronymics for >>>> some time. However, for most other parishes in Montgomeryshire, English >>>> surnames were generally adopted c. 1650, bar Llangurig, which is also >>>> more like 1700-1750. >>>> >>>> Also, from my experience, most parishes in Denbighshire seem to be in >>>> the 1700-1750 window. But my experience there is limited. >>>> >>>> Further is should be noted that names like John ap Richard ap LLewellyn, >>>> may have become: John Richard, or John Richards; and the same person >>>> could be refered to as such. You may also see people styled: John >>>> Richard Llewellyn. I have an ancestor who was styled such near 1800, >>>> from Hirnant, Montgomeryshire. >>>> >>>> It is however very difficult to discern if a name is a patronym or >>>> surname. For example >>>> >>>> John Jones, could be John, son of John OR >>>> John Jones, could be John, son of Henry Jones >>>> >>>> Without supplementary documentation, it cannot be proved, and for this >>>> reason, genealogy can be very difficult in parts of Wales where >>>> patronymics prevailed. Particularly as there were so few names in use. >>>> >>>> Compare: >>>> >>>> Denbigh: http://forebears.co.uk/wales/denbighshire#surnames >>>> Montgomery: http://forebears.co.uk/wales/montgomeryshire#surnames >>>> Shropshire: http://forebears.co.uk/england/shropshire#surnames >>>> >>>> >>>> On 02/02/13 14:21, Tomi Larson wrote: >>>>> Hello List, Can someone tell me at what point the practice of using a >>>>> mother's surname, or perhaps a father's forename, as a child's surname >>>>> started to wane? >>>>> Was this practice popular all over Wales, or in certain areas more than >>>>> others? >>>>> Thank you.Tomi >>>>> =================== >>>>> Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: >>>>> www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------- >>>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>>> POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> =================== >>>> Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> =================== >>> Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes >>> in the subject and the body of the message >> =================== >> Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes >> in the subject and the body of the message > > =================== > Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hello Venita and others...Considering the observation below, might Monmouthshire be considered one of the places where the patronymics died out earlier than other places?Thanks, Tomi > > Another observation - There were some places in Wales that had large > > amounts of English settlement when Wales was join with England in about > > 1534 (forget the exact date) and then on. The places where they settled > > tend to be the places where patronymics died out the earliest. One such > > place is the area around Trefeglwys in Montgomeryshire. > > > > > >> Venita

Dear Venita, I'd be interested if you have any facts to backup what you said about Trefeglws in Montgomeryshire. Mid-Wales is dominated by the River Severn that flows through all the main towns to Shrewsbury and beyond. In the early 1800's the canal was brought as far as Newtown (then the "Leeds of Wales") and half a century later the Railways were built. The Anglicisation of Mid-Wales took place because of this West-East communication along the waterways followed by the Railway but not before surely. >From my knowledge of the area(and I grew up there) villages as close as a mile off the main waterway retained the language and their Welshness at least until the second-world war. Wales has had a lot of movement from England since then and a general dilution of Welshness has taken place just about everywhere in Wales (especially second homes) that continues to change the character of so many of our Welsh villages. It goes on unabated I regret to say. Alun Evans ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Hopkins - Arakiel Genealogy" <david@olyeo.co.uk> To: <powys@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, February 02, 2013 9:08 PM Subject: Re: [POWYS] Welsh names > On 02/02/13 19:04, Venita wrote: >> Legend says that a Welshman was expected to know his fathers' names for >> nine generations. Whether or not that is true, I like the idea. ;-) > > I wish they would have recorded them in the records :D > > > Another observation - There were some places in Wales that had large > amounts of English settlement when Wales was join with England in about > 1534 (forget the exact date) and then on. The places where they settled > tend to be the places where patronymics died out the earliest. One such > place is the area around Trefeglwys in Montgomeryshire. > > >> Venita >> >> Family History and Other Fascinations >> venitap.com >> >> Just Picture It - Wales >> http://www.venitap.com/Photolinks/photolinks.html >> >> >> On Feb 2, 2013, at 8:27 AM, David Hopkins - Arakiel Genealogy >> <david@olyeo.co.uk> wrote: >> >>> I'm not sure about using a mother's surname. In the vast majority of >>> cases, if not all, this would happen when the child was illegitimate. >>> >>> Using the father's forename however was the Welsh custom and died out in >>> different area in different ways. >>> >>> Before surnames, Welsh were identified by a patronymic name, e.g. Jevan >>> ap Gryffydd ap Batho ap Heylin. Areas changed to using English-style >>> surnames by the 1500s, though some nobles adopted surnames earlier. >>> Adoption of English surnames happened at different times in different >>> places. For example, in Oswestry, Shropshire, most people had adopted >>> English surnames by around 1650. However, in the neighbouring parish of >>> Llansilin, Denbighshire. I have an ancestor who used his father's >>> forename as a surname, born in 1754. >>> >>> I can't tell you about customs throughout Wales, but I can tell you for >>> Montgomeryshire. >>> >>> http://home.freeuk.net/montgensoc/pages/parish_map.htm >>> >>> For the western parishes in St Asaph, patronymics continued to c. >>> 1700-1750 for many families, in particular the northern parishes. The >>> other parishes to the north of St Asaph also continued patronymics for >>> some time. However, for most other parishes in Montgomeryshire, English >>> surnames were generally adopted c. 1650, bar Llangurig, which is also >>> more like 1700-1750. >>> >>> Also, from my experience, most parishes in Denbighshire seem to be in >>> the 1700-1750 window. But my experience there is limited. >>> >>> Further is should be noted that names like John ap Richard ap LLewellyn, >>> may have become: John Richard, or John Richards; and the same person >>> could be refered to as such. You may also see people styled: John >>> Richard Llewellyn. I have an ancestor who was styled such near 1800, >>> from Hirnant, Montgomeryshire. >>> >>> It is however very difficult to discern if a name is a patronym or >>> surname. For example >>> >>> John Jones, could be John, son of John OR >>> John Jones, could be John, son of Henry Jones >>> >>> Without supplementary documentation, it cannot be proved, and for this >>> reason, genealogy can be very difficult in parts of Wales where >>> patronymics prevailed. Particularly as there were so few names in use. >>> >>> Compare: >>> >>> Denbigh: http://forebears.co.uk/wales/denbighshire#surnames >>> Montgomery: http://forebears.co.uk/wales/montgomeryshire#surnames >>> Shropshire: http://forebears.co.uk/england/shropshire#surnames >>> >>> >>> On 02/02/13 14:21, Tomi Larson wrote: >>>> Hello List, Can someone tell me at what point the practice of using a >>>> mother's surname, or perhaps a father's forename, as a child's surname >>>> started to wane? >>>> Was this practice popular all over Wales, or in certain areas more than >>>> others? >>>> Thank you.Tomi >>>> =================== >>>> Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: >>>> www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> =================== >>> Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >>> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> =================== >> Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes >> in the subject and the body of the message > > =================== > Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message

On 02/02/13 19:04, Venita wrote: > Legend says that a Welshman was expected to know his fathers' names for nine generations. Whether or not that is true, I like the idea. ;-) I wish they would have recorded them in the records :D Another observation - There were some places in Wales that had large amounts of English settlement when Wales was join with England in about 1534 (forget the exact date) and then on. The places where they settled tend to be the places where patronymics died out the earliest. One such place is the area around Trefeglwys in Montgomeryshire. > Venita > > Family History and Other Fascinations > venitap.com > > Just Picture It - Wales > http://www.venitap.com/Photolinks/photolinks.html > > > On Feb 2, 2013, at 8:27 AM, David Hopkins - Arakiel Genealogy <david@olyeo.co.uk> wrote: > >> I'm not sure about using a mother's surname. In the vast majority of >> cases, if not all, this would happen when the child was illegitimate. >> >> Using the father's forename however was the Welsh custom and died out in >> different area in different ways. >> >> Before surnames, Welsh were identified by a patronymic name, e.g. Jevan >> ap Gryffydd ap Batho ap Heylin. Areas changed to using English-style >> surnames by the 1500s, though some nobles adopted surnames earlier. >> Adoption of English surnames happened at different times in different >> places. For example, in Oswestry, Shropshire, most people had adopted >> English surnames by around 1650. However, in the neighbouring parish of >> Llansilin, Denbighshire. I have an ancestor who used his father's >> forename as a surname, born in 1754. >> >> I can't tell you about customs throughout Wales, but I can tell you for >> Montgomeryshire. >> >> http://home.freeuk.net/montgensoc/pages/parish_map.htm >> >> For the western parishes in St Asaph, patronymics continued to c. >> 1700-1750 for many families, in particular the northern parishes. The >> other parishes to the north of St Asaph also continued patronymics for >> some time. However, for most other parishes in Montgomeryshire, English >> surnames were generally adopted c. 1650, bar Llangurig, which is also >> more like 1700-1750. >> >> Also, from my experience, most parishes in Denbighshire seem to be in >> the 1700-1750 window. But my experience there is limited. >> >> Further is should be noted that names like John ap Richard ap LLewellyn, >> may have become: John Richard, or John Richards; and the same person >> could be refered to as such. You may also see people styled: John >> Richard Llewellyn. I have an ancestor who was styled such near 1800, >> from Hirnant, Montgomeryshire. >> >> It is however very difficult to discern if a name is a patronym or >> surname. For example >> >> John Jones, could be John, son of John OR >> John Jones, could be John, son of Henry Jones >> >> Without supplementary documentation, it cannot be proved, and for this >> reason, genealogy can be very difficult in parts of Wales where >> patronymics prevailed. Particularly as there were so few names in use. >> >> Compare: >> >> Denbigh: http://forebears.co.uk/wales/denbighshire#surnames >> Montgomery: http://forebears.co.uk/wales/montgomeryshire#surnames >> Shropshire: http://forebears.co.uk/england/shropshire#surnames >> >> >> On 02/02/13 14:21, Tomi Larson wrote: >>> Hello List, Can someone tell me at what point the practice of using a mother's surname, or perhaps a father's forename, as a child's surname started to wane? >>> Was this practice popular all over Wales, or in certain areas more than others? >>> Thank you.Tomi >>> =================== >>> Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> =================== >> Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > =================== > Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I'm not sure about using a mother's surname. In the vast majority of cases, if not all, this would happen when the child was illegitimate. Using the father's forename however was the Welsh custom and died out in different area in different ways. Before surnames, Welsh were identified by a patronymic name, e.g. Jevan ap Gryffydd ap Batho ap Heylin. Areas changed to using English-style surnames by the 1500s, though some nobles adopted surnames earlier. Adoption of English surnames happened at different times in different places. For example, in Oswestry, Shropshire, most people had adopted English surnames by around 1650. However, in the neighbouring parish of Llansilin, Denbighshire. I have an ancestor who used his father's forename as a surname, born in 1754. I can't tell you about customs throughout Wales, but I can tell you for Montgomeryshire. http://home.freeuk.net/montgensoc/pages/parish_map.htm For the western parishes in St Asaph, patronymics continued to c. 1700-1750 for many families, in particular the northern parishes. The other parishes to the north of St Asaph also continued patronymics for some time. However, for most other parishes in Montgomeryshire, English surnames were generally adopted c. 1650, bar Llangurig, which is also more like 1700-1750. Also, from my experience, most parishes in Denbighshire seem to be in the 1700-1750 window. But my experience there is limited. Further is should be noted that names like John ap Richard ap LLewellyn, may have become: John Richard, or John Richards; and the same person could be refered to as such. You may also see people styled: John Richard Llewellyn. I have an ancestor who was styled such near 1800, from Hirnant, Montgomeryshire. It is however very difficult to discern if a name is a patronym or surname. For example John Jones, could be John, son of John OR John Jones, could be John, son of Henry Jones Without supplementary documentation, it cannot be proved, and for this reason, genealogy can be very difficult in parts of Wales where patronymics prevailed. Particularly as there were so few names in use. Compare: Denbigh: http://forebears.co.uk/wales/denbighshire#surnames Montgomery: http://forebears.co.uk/wales/montgomeryshire#surnames Shropshire: http://forebears.co.uk/england/shropshire#surnames On 02/02/13 14:21, Tomi Larson wrote: > Hello List, Can someone tell me at what point the practice of using a mother's surname, or perhaps a father's forename, as a child's surname started to wane? > Was this practice popular all over Wales, or in certain areas more than others? > Thank you.Tomi > =================== > Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thanks for your great explanation, David. To piggy-back on what you said, I have found that the more rural the parish, the longer patronymic surnames were used. They were frequently recorded in parish records when there was more than one man with the same name fathering children at the same time (i.e. David Lewis John and David Lewis William) up until the printed forms for parish records were used, beginning about 1813. On the forms, the place of abode became the distinguishing feature of identification for fathers of the same name. If the man was of particular importance in the parish, one may find his patronymics for several generations in the older records, such as David Lewis William Rees Llewellyn Evan. Legend says that a Welshman was expected to know his fathers' names for nine generations. Whether or not that is true, I like the idea. ;-) Venita Family History and Other Fascinations venitap.com Just Picture It - Wales http://www.venitap.com/Photolinks/photolinks.html On Feb 2, 2013, at 8:27 AM, David Hopkins - Arakiel Genealogy <david@olyeo.co.uk> wrote: > I'm not sure about using a mother's surname. In the vast majority of > cases, if not all, this would happen when the child was illegitimate. > > Using the father's forename however was the Welsh custom and died out in > different area in different ways. > > Before surnames, Welsh were identified by a patronymic name, e.g. Jevan > ap Gryffydd ap Batho ap Heylin. Areas changed to using English-style > surnames by the 1500s, though some nobles adopted surnames earlier. > Adoption of English surnames happened at different times in different > places. For example, in Oswestry, Shropshire, most people had adopted > English surnames by around 1650. However, in the neighbouring parish of > Llansilin, Denbighshire. I have an ancestor who used his father's > forename as a surname, born in 1754. > > I can't tell you about customs throughout Wales, but I can tell you for > Montgomeryshire. > > http://home.freeuk.net/montgensoc/pages/parish_map.htm > > For the western parishes in St Asaph, patronymics continued to c. > 1700-1750 for many families, in particular the northern parishes. The > other parishes to the north of St Asaph also continued patronymics for > some time. However, for most other parishes in Montgomeryshire, English > surnames were generally adopted c. 1650, bar Llangurig, which is also > more like 1700-1750. > > Also, from my experience, most parishes in Denbighshire seem to be in > the 1700-1750 window. But my experience there is limited. > > Further is should be noted that names like John ap Richard ap LLewellyn, > may have become: John Richard, or John Richards; and the same person > could be refered to as such. You may also see people styled: John > Richard Llewellyn. I have an ancestor who was styled such near 1800, > from Hirnant, Montgomeryshire. > > It is however very difficult to discern if a name is a patronym or > surname. For example > > John Jones, could be John, son of John OR > John Jones, could be John, son of Henry Jones > > Without supplementary documentation, it cannot be proved, and for this > reason, genealogy can be very difficult in parts of Wales where > patronymics prevailed. Particularly as there were so few names in use. > > Compare: > > Denbigh: http://forebears.co.uk/wales/denbighshire#surnames > Montgomery: http://forebears.co.uk/wales/montgomeryshire#surnames > Shropshire: http://forebears.co.uk/england/shropshire#surnames > > > On 02/02/13 14:21, Tomi Larson wrote: >> Hello List, Can someone tell me at what point the practice of using a mother's surname, or perhaps a father's forename, as a child's surname started to wane? >> Was this practice popular all over Wales, or in certain areas more than others? >> Thank you.Tomi >> =================== >> Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > =================== > Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2011.co.uk/powyslist.htm > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message