"Anna Brueton" <bruetons@anoeth.demon.co.uk> wrote: > In Bryn Eillis's otherwise excellent account of patronymics, referred to > by > Julie Preston, I was troubled by the following, which seemed to me liable > to confuse: > > "Please note that a woman did not [could not!] adopt her husband's > 'surname' on marriage - she retained her family name throughout her > life." As the author of those words may I respond? I needed to be very brief in that introduction [not my usual 2-hour talk on the subject!!]. The trouble with being brief is that by definiton you leave out many things.Those online notes referred to were written specifically to explain the editorial decisions used in preparing the parish registers to go online, and not as a general article on patronymics. As you state those words are not inaccurate as she did retain her patronymic. I agree with you though that a married woman is rarely described solely by her patronymic. Most fully patronmyic entries in burial registers have both, such as 'Elen verch Morgan, widow of David Prosser'. But I have in the past come across instances of widows beng recorded only by their patronymic. My ancestor Elizabeth Vaughan of Llanuwchllyn parish, who left a will in 1770, was the widow of John Maurice - not a patronymic but nevertheless her own family name, not her husband's. I have just looked up a list of wills of St. Asaph diocese and soon found 'Sibill vch David, widow' in 1647. I did not look any further. Thank you however for your observations. Bryn Ellis

We're going to have a good supper of cawl and apple tart at our local pub - the chef is a Cymro - followed by a Noson Lawen with plenty of rousing hymns as well. Wishing you all a happy day! Glenys (Travis) -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. It has removed 905 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len

Pictures of: Shopping at ASDA, Swansea (GLA); and Treboeth, Swansea (GLA) Dear Listers, I have just uploaded this week's Retrospectives onto my website. They include: 1. A shopping expedition to ASDA supermarket at Trallwn in Swansea in the county of Glamorgan (five pictures). This three-page 'Images of Wales' feature was first shown in February 1998. ASDA has since moved from Trallwn to the Llansamlet district of Swansea. 2. A visit to Treboeth in the ancient parish of Llangyfelach, Swansea, county of Glamorgan (eleven pictures). This feature was first shown on 'Images of Wales' in May 1999. As usual, these webpages will be on display for one week. 'Retrospective Images of Wales' is at www.jlb2005.plus.com/walespic/retro/retro.htm While there, take the time to explore my 'Webpage Archive' and make your own Retrospective requests. Kind regards, John -------------------- John Ball, Brecon, mid-Wales, UK E-mail: john@jlb2005.plus.com John's Homepage: http://www.jlb2005.plus.com/ Images of Wales: http://www.jlb2005.plus.com/walespic/ Welsh Family History Archive: http://www.jlb2005.plus.com/wales/ GENUKI Breconshire Maintainer: http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/BRE/ Joint Administrator - Powys (& BRE/MGY/RAD) mailing lists

I apologise for retruning to the subject of patronymics somewhat late, but I have been away. In Bryn Eillis's otherwise excellent account of patronymics, referred to by Julie Preston, I was troubled by the following, which seemed to me liable to confuse: "Please note that a woman did not [could not!] adopt her husband's 'surname' on marriage - she retained her family name throughout her life." Although the statement is not incorrect, it rather skates over the compexity of actual practice, It implies that under the patronymic system, married and widowed women are likely to be referred to solely by their father's name - which I don't think is generally true. In my experience the system is something like this: Women are always described in relation to men. Single women are their father's daughter (Elen ferch Morgan Rees); on marriage they become their husband's wife (Elen wraig David ap Rosser). but they do not lose their patronymic. In contexts where the husband's name is explicit or implied, they may be referred to by their patronymic. Examples may be found in baptismal registers and wills (I leave to my wife Elen verch Morgan...). In burial registers married women are usually listed as the wife or widow of their husband. I have never come across examples of married or widowed women described only by their patronymic, and I would be very interested to learn of any. A further question is how wills of widows using the patronymic system are indexed in the diocesan collections at NLW. If Elen had written her will as "I Elen verch Morgan, widow of David Prosser...", would it be indexed under Morgan or Prosser? Has anyone any experience of this? Anna Brueton

Hi Louise, Tywyn north of Aberdovey, was in Merionethshire before Powys was reborn in 1974.......I know it well. Dennis, in RAD's, Powys, Mid-Wales.

Forwarding for Larry Best who I see is not currently subscribed to the list with the email address ldbest@persona.ca Julie Preston juliefpreston@sbcglobal.net ----- Original Message ----- From: Larry Best To: POWYS-L@rootsweb.com Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 1:23 AM Subject: Charles Ashton Re:: ASHTON OF CARNO OR TEFEGLWYS I am very interested in KEVIN EDWARDS comments about our common bond of Charles Ashton. I see him struggling to confirm our Charles Evans..1st wife that is my Grt Grt Grandma. My Ann Evans is definately sister ot 1/2 sister to his... as shown on the 1861/1871 census...She live as a widow with Daniel and Elizabeth Davis in 1861 and Ann's daughter Mary then Lewis lived with them in 1871 as a widow. I already had my Ann Ashton daughter of Charles Ashton who was born 3 April 1791 Trefeglwys to be Ann Rees...he married her 17 May 1817 Trefeglwys. I was sent by family who researched it carefully and had dates and marriage ceriticates etc. to prove it. I wish I could remember my source but my old computer crashed taking with it that source information.. Knowing where the Charles Ashton lived through the years may help.. 1841 census had him living @ Glennafin-ucha Trefeglwys.. This a a definate.. Daniel and Elizabeth Davies are on it. 1841 Census Parish of Trefeglwys Dwelling Place Gribinfach { I have no idea where this is] Charles Ashotn Head male married 44 carpenter Y Tef Eliabeth Ashton female carpenters wife 16 Y Tef Thomas Ashton male...son 13 Jane Ashton female born 1831 To my knowledge this is the same family as the following and Elizabeth Davies is this wife. 1851 Census Parish Of Trefeglwys 1851 Census Parish Of Trefeglwys Dwelling Place Glennafin-ucha Dwelling Place :Trysan Charles Ashton Head male 54 Trefeglwys Carpenter Richard Evans head Male 33 Farmer 33 Trefeglwys 33 acres Elizabeth Ashton wife female 36 Trefeglwys Ann Ashton wife female 34 Carno Charles Ashton son. 2 Trefeglwys Mary Evans daughter 8 Trefeglwys scholar Daniel Ashton son-in-law 27 Trefeglwys ag labourer Richard Evans son 6 Trefelwys [this is my Gt Grandpa] Elizabeth Ashton married[ daughter ] 26 Carno. Charles Evans son 3 Trefeglwys Annie Evans daughter 1 Trefeglwys NOTE: I had the information that shows this is the right Evans family for myself..as Richard Charles Evans story was written up years ago for us. NOTE: THE MARRIAGE CERTIFICATE of RICHARD EVANS AND ANN ASHTON on 12 February 1842 @ Church of Llandinam..states her father was Charles Ashton ; carpenter and Evan Evans was a farmer. NOTE: Ann Evans Birth Certificate it states that Ann Ashton is the mother and that Richard Evans was a weaver @ Trysarn Trefeglwys . MARIAGE BANNS BETWEEN DANIEL DAVIES AND ELIZABETH ASHTON states that Charles Ashton was her father...he lived at Glen-uchaf and was a carpenter. 1861 census shows that Kevin's Elizabeth and my Ann are family as Ann is listed as Daniel Davies widowed sister-in-law living with them..and in 1971 Ann Evans Daughter Mary Lewis is a widow and living with the daniel Davies listed as a widowed niece. Cher'rie -D Evans is my cousin from the USA and until I rea this article of Kevin;s search I was not aware that Ann Ashton was born in Penrhyddian Carno. I know she has purchased the birthcerificates/ marriage certifiactes of family.. Does Trefeglwys not border Carno to the south-west? And did peope not migrate back and forth between areas in Wales where the work was? Is it not true that the first baby was oftern born in the Mother's parents home in those days as I was told whole researching another Welsh branch? In fact I found hat person who married into the Evans family...born in Llanbrynmair yet lived all her life in Carno..All the rest of her siblings were born in Carno. Richard Evans is the son of Evan Evans of Trefeglways and he was a farmer with 33 acres...if that will help. I would like very much to hear from Kevin and other in these families and compare what we have gathered up today ldbest@persona.ca Thank you ..

Am looking for more information on Anna Maria EVANS. About two years ago someone sent me the following—but I don’t know for sure if this is the one I’m looking for: Name: Anna Maria EVANS Age: 20 Est. birth: abt 1821 Civil parish: Llangynllo Hundred: Cefnllys County/Island: Radnorshire Country: Wales Source information: HO107/1454/13 Registration district: Knighton Sub-registration district: Knighton ED, institution, or vessel: 6 7 Folio: 3 Page: 4 And someone else sent me a page from the 1841 Wales Census—again I’m not sure this is my Anna EVANS: Anna EVANS 12 (born abt. 1829) Born: Cardiganshire, Wales Civil Parish: Llanbadar Fawr Hundred: Geneur Glynn County/Island: Cardiganshire Country: Wales Registration district: Aberystwith Household Members: Ann Evans 40, Anna Evans 12, Edward Evans 8, and Anna Morris 69. I do have her death certificate which lists her father as Edward EVANS, and her mother as unknown first name, last name COX. Her birth location is listed as “England,” but all the family has always said she was born in Wales. I have visited her grave in Pennsylvania and her tombstone lists her birth date as 12 Jun 1829 and death as 10 Apr 1911. She married a William B. MORROW and they lived in Cumberland County Pennsylvania. I find her on the US Census in 1860, 1870, 1880, 1900, and 1910. I also have William MORROW's US Civil War Pension record listing her as his widow. I find him with his family in 1850, so I don't think he was from Wales...actually his widowed mother says she was born in Ireland, but the children are all listed ab being born in Pennsylvania. Any guidance or assistance will be greatly appreciated. Nora Avery Florida

Hello Everyone, I enjoy this list immensely! This latest digest is perfect for my question. My G Grandfather was born, I think, in Tywyn or Twyin, Cardiganshire. But which spelling is correct - ? Isn't Tywyn in Gwenedd County? Or are they the same place? Please tell me, I am stating a search for birth records before 1837 which is difficult enough without having the wrong town and county to search. In the census most of the family is in Breconshire around Llanelly. At least in 1841 that is where they were. John's Page is wonderful. To be able to see the country where my ancestors honed their stamina and fortitude, which they passed down to me, is certainly inspiring. I am trying to learn a bit of Welsh. I speak a little French and more than passable Spanish and American, of course, but Welsh - I should have listened to my Grandmothers brogue more! I got caddy geg from her - a lot. Mucken jowl was often my name too! Please forgive the spellings I haven't gotten to the words for Be Quiet or Piggy face yet. Sorry. Back to the thread. Louise Born in Pennsylvania, lived there 24 years, then round the world for 20 years. to finally live in Texas the past 30 years. Think I's rather be in John's house looking out that wonderful window!

The difference in spelling is welsh v english. They are essentially the same name. Tywyn used to be Towyn just as Conwy used to be Conway. Heddwch Mike. Mike Llywelyn Cox micoxcox@btinternet.com http://www.ppeyes.org.uk http://micoxpplog.blogspot.com A http://www.solnetwork.org.uk member. and a http://www.pcx.nhs.uk/forumsandblogs contributor. Family History www.wotashower.co.uk All views and statements expressed here are entirely my own and, unless stated otherwise, not those of any other individual or organisation. On 27 Feb 2008, at 20:27, Roger M Evans wrote: > Sorry to be argumentative but --- TYWYN is on the West Wales coast > about 12 miles west of Machynlleth, its the HQ of one of the "Great > Little Trains of Wales" ie. The Talyllyn Railway. It is about 4 > miles by road to Aberdovey (Aberdyfi) > > Towyn is as you say between Rhyl and Abergele on the North Wales > coast. > > Roger M Evans > > > =================== > Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2005.plus.com/ > powyslist.htm > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to POWYS- > request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message

I have rec'd a birth certificate from the GRO and am a little confused over geography. This is the info from the cert: William Price b. 5 March, 1838 6 o'clock in the morning Hamlet of Trayanmawr reported by his father Morgan Price of Trecastle 6 March. I know Traianmawr and Trecastle are quite close but I cannot find a map which shows Traianmawr at all. Would this hamlet be within Trecastle? Why is Morgan Price of Trecastle but birth in Traianmawr? Must be quite close if father was able to report the birth the next day. Thanks in advance. Gwen gisaac@netins.net

Hi Vic, (Admin. hat on now) I tried to email you at the new email address you subscribed to this list today but my email failed to reach you (excerpt from notice below) so I'm hoping this will get to you. Your ISP apparently doesn't like my ISP -- if that's the case and you also have trouble receiving emails from the list and/or other correspondents, there may be some changes you'll need to make in your settings or you'll have to seek technical help from your ISP. Please let me know if you receive this and also if you'd like me to forward the full headers to you to aid in requesting technical assistance. <VicRoberts@vjdroberts.co.uk>: 195.26.90.18 does not like recipient. Remote host said: 550-Sender address 66.196.96.92 is listed at dnsbl.sorbs.net: 550 Exploitable Server See: http://www.sorbs.net/lookup.shtml?66.196.96.92 Giving up on 195.26.90.18. Kind regards, Julie Preston juliefpreston@sbcglobal.net

Dear Listers, Rootsweb has announced some changes in the subscription process for mailing lists. I urge you to please note the information posted on the link below for future use. The next time you'd like to subscribe a new email address or subscribe to a new mailing list will be a slightly different experience. It doesn't seem to affect "unsubscribe" requests, however -- at least, that action is not addressed in this announcement. http://bigfile.rootsweb.com/newsroom/?p=108 Now that John Ball has successfully moved house and is enjoying the spectacular view of the Brecon Beacons from his window (poor sod!), he'll be ready in a couple of weeks to take back the list administration duties while I'm away on holiday in the Caribbean and Miami for the latter half of March. (The view from my window is covered with 2 feet of snow so I''m taking advantage of this opportunity to escape!) Kind regards, Julie Preston juliefpreston@sbcglobal.net Joint List Admin., Powys Mailing List

Hi Linda, Try this site www.ohio.llgc.org.uk There are over 5000 documents on line and is being added to constantly. This is a project run by the National Library of Wales and has been sponsored by Mr & Mrs Evan Davis of Oak Hill, Ohio. Regards Lloyd Editor, Cronicl Powys Powys FHS. www.rootsweb.com/~wlspfhs ---- Original Message ----- From: "K.F. gengenbacher" <genbach@hotmail.com> To: <powys-l@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2008 4:44 AM Subject: [POWYS] John W. Jones and Elizabeth Pugh

Agree Roger. Although I couldn't even write when I lived there, its something I got pulled up on by parents later in life. Its a common spelling mistake, but can mean the difference with people receiving snail mail, even identifying the place etc. Would be interested re spelling from a historical angle though, since I've seen over 10 variations of spelling for e.g. Trefeglwys. (I don't really historical connection with Tywyn its just a place my parents lived there when they first married, when my dad worked in Tremadog). Anyone clued up on MER history know? As a side note, when we lived there, it was opposite the railway on Cambrian Road. Here's a picture of me with my grandparents (happens to be my earliest memory): http://www.alisonbryan.com/idris/tywyn.jpg I'm sitting on the wall of my parents' (then) garden. If you've ever looked at the Tywyn images that John Ball once put on the Retrospective Images of Wales, one of the pictures must have been taken right outside my parents (then) bungalow! I would have been a toddler at that time / still living there, etc. That was slightly weird to think about. 30+ years later we encounter each other by e mail, something that wasn't even invented back then. One of the of the other photos John posted of Tywyn, kind of jogged a couple of other early memories that I would not have remembered otherwise. So, thanks. Who knew that genealogy would stir memories of your own lifetime, never mind dig into that of ancestors! Sorry to butt in on this topic, will let the thread get back on course. Alison - who feels old! :)

Sorry to be argumentative but --- TYWYN is on the West Wales coast about 12 miles west of Machynlleth, its the HQ of one of the "Great Little Trains of Wales" ie. The Talyllyn Railway. It is about 4 miles by road to Aberdovey (Aberdyfi) Towyn is as you say between Rhyl and Abergele on the North Wales coast. Roger M Evans

Allison is correct on Tywyn being just north of Aberdovey, as I too have spent many months there in the 1950-!960 era - and more recently on holidays, and I know the area very well. It was called Towyn at times in WW2 days and later, but that is not so now due to the new Welsh Language issues. Dennis Cleaton, RAD, Powys.

Hi members. I am trying to find the birth date and place of ELIZABETH MULLINER nee DAVIES I have the following information. Her death certificate shows she died at Llys Maldwyn hospital Caersws on 6 May 1954 aged 81 she was living with her son Matthew Henry Mulliner at Congley Cottage Mochdre N`r Newtown, I do not know where she is buried. She lived at Brickfield Cottage Llandrinio Llanfyllin at the death of her husband in 1916 (I have his death cert) She lived at Upper House Cottage Burgedin Guilsfield at the birth of her son in 1903 (I have his birth cert) She was married to Matthew Mulliner at Guilsfield on 7 May 1902 aged 31. ( I have their marriage cert) Any information would be most welcome. Ian Lawson. Sydney. Australia.

The caravanworld one certainly isn't mine. Tywyn (note different spelling!) is near Aberdovey. Towyn spelt with a O is caravanworld. The two spellings should not be interchangeable, and are different places. (Incidentally, I lived in Tywyn for 4.5 years in the early 1970s). :-) Alison > There are two Towyns - yours Alison is caravanworld on the road into > Rhyl. The other is a seaside town south of Barmouth and north of > Aberdovey.

There are two Towyns - yours Alison is caravanworld on the road into Rhyl. The other is a seaside town south of Barmouth and north of Aberdovey. Heddwch Mike. Mike Llywelyn Cox micoxcox@btinternet.com http://www.ppeyes.org.uk http://micoxpplog.blogspot.com A http://www.solnetwork.org.uk member. and a http://www.pcx.nhs.uk/forumsandblogs contributor. Family History www.wotashower.co.uk All views and statements expressed here are entirely my own and, unless stated otherwise, not those of any other individual or organisation. On 27 Feb 2008, at 14:28, Alison Bryan wrote: >> Towyn is close to Aberdovey. > > Tywyn is. I believe Towyn is ~70 miles away, on the north Wales > coast. :) > > Alison > > =================== > Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2005.plus.com/ > powyslist.htm > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to POWYS- > request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message

The marriage certificate can be ordered from NW BMD via the following link; http://www.northwalesbmd.org.uk/cgi/pma.cgi?date=1856&county=northwales&reference=C21%2f01%2f73&file=J&pos=19861&area=EA Alternatively use http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl?start=1856&end=1856&sq=3&eq=3&type=Marriages&vol=11b&pgno=273&jsexec=1&mono=0&v=MTIwNDEyMzA0NzoxZDAwZjAxMGNjZTk4NjVmYjhhYmJjNTYwMmExMDA1YTM5NmU2NDRj&searchdef=given%3DJohn%26db%3Dbmd_1201635624%26sq%3D1%26v%3DMTIwNDEyMjk5OTpmMGNlZDQ5MDEyZDg0NGNiOTlhYWNkZGU3MTAxOTA0OGM3ZDUzMjA5%26surname%3DJones%26end%3D1856%26s_given%3DElizabeth%26districtid%3D571%26type%3DMarriages%26eq%3D4%26start%3D1856&action=Find to obtain the relevant references and order through http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/#0 Hope the links work on Roots web! Regards John ----- Original Message ----- From: "Julie Preston" <juliefpreston@sbcglobal.net> To: <powys@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2008 1:52 PM Subject: Re: [POWYS] John W. Jones and Elizabeth Pugh > > Linda, > > Since both John JONES and Elizabeth were born prior to the advent of Civil > Registration (July 1837), you will not be able to obtain *birth > certificates* for them or any of their forebears. You must locate their > baptism entries in the parish registers (Bishop's Transcripts microfilmed > by > the LDS) or chapel registers (often Calvinistic Methodists or Wesleyan > Methodists - Wesleyan ministers worked a 'circuit' so their registers > cover > a wide area, while Calvinistic Methodist registers are extremely detailed > and a great find). You need to work backward in time through any/all > available documentation, beginning with the marriage certificate and then > locating them in the 1851 & 1841 census returns, hopefully with their > respective families. There will be no record of them living as a married > couple since they married and emigrated between census years. > > Be aware the many Welsh people did not have a middle name or initial but > adopted one upon arrival in the U.S. so don't expect his marriage entry to > have the "W". > A cursury check of www.northwalesbmd.org.uk marriages, Machynlleth > District, > 1856, turned up one possibility for John JONES, Machynlleth, Civil > Marriage > (i.e., took place at the registrar's office), Registers now at > Powys-Machynlleth Supt. Reg. Office, Ref. No. MACH/02/59. > > There are two marries on each page of the register -- these are the other > persons listed: > > ELLIS Elizabeth > LEWIS Ellis > MORRIS Sarah > > Suggest you explore the NorthWalesBMD site and try to order their marriage > certificate. If you contact the Machynlleth Reg. Office directly, they > may > be able to easily tell you if the marriage date matches the date you have > (assuming it's correct). The marriage certificate will provide you with > the > residence of each of them at the time of marriage, occupations, ages > (sometimes says "Full Age"), father's name & occupation. > > Kind regards, > > Julie Preston > juliefpreston@sbcglobal.net > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "K.F. gengenbacher" <genbach@hotmail.com> > To: <powys-l@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Tuesday, February 26, 2008 11:44 PM > Subject: [POWYS] John W. Jones and Elizabeth Pugh > > > > Hello, am new to the list. I am researching John W. Jones, born of > Humphrie > and Sara Jones, who lived near Aberdovey. He was born Sep 25, 1825. On > July > 24, 1856 John married Elizabeth (Pugh?) who was born Feb. 1829, and lived > near Machnylleth. I believe they were married in Machnylleth. In Sept of > 1856 they sailed from Liverpool for America, where they spent the rest of > their lives in Ohio. I have no official documents, such as birth, death, > or > marriage certs. I have high hopes of finding these items, however. Any > help > or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks. > > Linda Gengenbacher > > _________________________________________________________________ > Climb to the top of the charts! Play the word scramble challenge with star > power. > http://club.live.com/star_shuffle.aspx?icid=starshuffle_wlmailtextlink_jan > > =================== > Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: > www.jlb2005.plus.com/powyslist.htm > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in > the subject and the body of the message > > > =================== > Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: > www.jlb2005.plus.com/powyslist.htm > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.21.1/1300 - Release Date: > 26/02/2008 19:50 > >