I have been trying to contact KEVIN EDWARDS often on Powys with notes about family. I can not get through; so I am asking anyone who know him ; TO PLEASE DOME A FAVOR AND PASS ON A MESSAGE that my email address of ldbest@persona.ca.and I have found the Ashton line...to our tree.he has been querying about and I am in contact with one of his other Davies cousins... His Elizabeth [nee] Ashton Davies and my Anne [nee Ashton] Evans and Samantha Coleman's Elizabeth [nee Elizabeth Davies] and Cher'rie D Evans ]nee Anne Ashton ] Evans are the same family. And the answer we searched for as to who is the mother of Elizabeth Anne;Thomas. and Jane lay in the various census.\ 1841 census revealed Charles Ashton born @ Y Trefeglwys married to Elizabeth and had children Thomas and Jane too old to be Elizbaeht's children..So that meant there was a first wife...Dwelling place was Gribinfach Trefeglwys [hope I spelt it right] . His occupation was carpenter. 1851 census shows Charels Ashton @ Glennafin-ucha Trefeglwys ; a carpenter age54 with wife Elizabeth 26 born Trefeglwys; Chalres son age 2 ; Daniel Davies son-in-law 26 Trefeglwys ag labourer and Elizabeth Davies [wife to Daneil age 27 of Carno 1851 census for Richard Evans family shows them living @ Tysarn Trefeleglwys . He is 33 ; a farmer with 33 acres; Ann is his wife age 34 Carno ; Mary daughter is 8' Ricahrd 6 Charles 3 and Mary their last child age 1. 1861 census of Daniel Davies shows he is living @ Tysia Finnant Trefeglwys age 36 still agr lab ; wife Elizabeth 27 of Carno ; Jane daughter 8 born Trefeglwys; Margaret 5; and Elizabeth Davies 2 .and it also includes Ann Evans 44 widow; Richard Evans 16 farm labourer; Charles Evans 13 apprentice shoemaker and Ann Ashton 11 scholar [Richard and Ann Evans daughter is married to John Lewis. 1871 census of Daniel Davies once more shows the family ties.Daniel Davies is still living @ Tysia Finnant with wife Elizabeth; children Jane 18 dressmaker, Margaret; apprentice seamstress; Elizabeth 11 scholar; Daniel 8 scholar; and John 5. Included in this house census is Mary [nee Evans] Lewis now 28 widowed dressmaker; her children Mary A 7; Lewis 3; Richard 1 and Harriet 2 months. Some helpful person had sent me the Charles Ashton born cir 1860 @ Trefeglwys as my line.. It jus did not compute; as the birth places of both .Elizabeth and Anne was Carno; not Trefeglwys.. Charles Ashton ch 10 Jan 1792 Llanidloes Trefeglwys son of Susan Ashton and Edward Morris.LSD files has his christening date on it and it is on marriage certifiacte to the first wife is Jane Jones of Carno. so I began searching again CHARLES ASHTON ch 10 January 1792 @ Trefeglwys and JANE JONES married 20 April 1816 @ Carno.. And it states on the marriage certificate that Edward Morris is the father of Charles Ashton...mother is Susan Ashton. Other children of Susan Ashton Thomas; Anne and Elizabeth, and Jane Ashton. Whether her and Edward Morris were ahead of their time choosing common-in-law is not clear. She had more than one child out of wedlock. it is highly probable she remained faithful to him..whether they lived together or not. Parents of Susan Ashton ch. 18 May 1767 @ Trefeglwys is John Ashton ch 16 Oct 1734 and Susaanah Morgan . Ant this John Ashton ch 16 Oct 1734 @ Trefelgwys is the and son of Charles Ashton [1705- 1752] @ Trefeglwys Charles Ashton born 1698 is the 2nd son of John Ashton ch.6 Feb 1667 Geseilfa Trefeglwys. NOTICE that even the next generation from this Charles Ashton family..married into the Jones. Richard Charles Evans [son of Ann Ashton and Richard Evans ] married Mary Jones born 1846 of LLandbrynmair..@ Carno in 1867/68. Census indicate this Mary Jones may be the daughter of Evan Jones born 1824 and Margaret Owen @ Carno Elizabeth Davies [daughter of Elizabeth Ashton] married Charles B Jones born 1860 @ Kerry Montgomeryshire at Llanidloes.which then goes into the William Wooseman family. Are these two Jones related? .

I have been trying to contact KEVIN EDWARDS often on Powys with notes about family. I can not get through; so I am asking anyone who know him ; TO PLEASE DOME A FAVOR AND PASS ON A MESSAGE that my email address of ldbest@persona.ca.and I have found the Ashton line...to our tree.he has been querying about and I am in contact with one of his other Davies cousins... His Elizabeth [nee] Ashton Davies and my Anne [nee Ashton] Evans and Samantha Coleman's Elizabeth [nee Elizabeth Davies] and Cher'rie D Evans ]nee Anne Ashton ] Evans are the same family. And the answer we searched for as to who is the mother of Elizabeth Anne;Thomas. and Jane lay in the various census.\ 1841 census revealed Charles Ashton born @ Y Trefeglwys married to Elizabeth and had children Thomas and Jane too old to be Elizbaeht's children..So that meant there was a first wife...Dwelling place was Gribinfach Trefeglwys [hope I spelt it right] . His occupation was carpenter. 1851 census shows Charels Ashton @ Glennafin-ucha Trefeglwys ; a carpenter age54 with wife Elizabeth 26 born Trefeglwys; Chalres son age 2 ; Daniel Davies son-in-law 26 Trefeglwys ag labourer and Elizabeth Davies [wife to Daneil age 27 of Carno 1851 census for Richard Evans family shows them living @ Tysarn Trefeleglwys . He is 33 ; a farmer with 33 acres; Ann is his wife age 34 Carno ; Mary daughter is 8' Ricahrd 6 Charles 3 and Mary their last child age 1. 1861 census of Daniel Davies shows he is living @ Tysia Finnant Trefeglwys age 36 still agr lab ; wife Elizabeth 27 of Carno ; Jane daughter 8 born Trefeglwys; Margaret 5; and Elizabeth Davies 2 .and it also includes Ann Evans 44 widow; Richard Evans 16 farm labourer; Charles Evans 13 apprentice shoemaker and Ann Ashton 11 scholar [Richard and Ann Evans daughter is married to John Lewis. 1871 census of Daniel Davies once more shows the family ties.Daniel Davies is still living @ Tysia Finnant with wife Elizabeth; children Jane 18 dressmaker, Margaret; apprentice seamstress; Elizabeth 11 scholar; Daniel 8 scholar; and John 5. Included in this house census is Mary [nee Evans] Lewis now 28 widowed dressmaker; her children Mary A 7; Lewis 3; Richard 1 and Harriet 2 months. Some helpful person had sent me the Charles Ashton born cir 1860 @ Trefeglwys as my line.. It jus did not compute; as the birth places of both .Elizabeth and Anne was Carno; not Trefeglwys.. Charles Ashton ch 10 Jan 1792 Llanidloes Trefeglwys son of Susan Ashton and Edward Morris.LSD files has his christening date on it and it is on marriage certifiacte to the first wife is Jane Jones of Carno. so I began searching again CHARLES ASHTON ch 10 January 1792 @ Trefeglwys and JANE JONES married 20 April 1816 @ Carno.. And it states on the marriage certificate that Edward Morris is the father of Charles Ashton...mother is Susan Ashton. Other children of Susan Ashton Thomas; Anne and Elizabeth, and Jane Ashton. Whether her and Edward Morris were ahead of their time choosing common-in-law is not clear. She had more than one child out of wedlock. it is highly probable she remained faithful to him..whether they lived together or not. Parents of Susan Ashton ch. 18 May 1767 @ Trefeglwys is John Ashton ch 16 Oct 1734 and Susaanah Morgan . Ant this John Ashton ch 16 Oct 1734 @ Trefelgwys is the and son of Charles Ashton [1705- 1752] @ Trefeglwys Charles Ashton born 1698 is the 2nd son of John Ashton ch.6 Feb 1667 Geseilfa Trefeglwys. NOTICE that even the next generation from this Charles Ashton family..married into the Jones. Richard Charles Evans [son of Ann Ashton and Richard Evans ] married Mary Jones born 1846 of LLandbrynmair..@ Carno in 1867/68. Census indicate this Mary Jones may be the daughter of Evan Jones born 1824 and Margaret Owen @ Carno Elizabeth Davies [daughter of Elizabeth Ashton] married Charles B Jones born 1860 @ Kerry Montgomeryshire at Llanidloes.which then goes into the William Wooseman family. Are these two Jones related? .

I have been trying to contact KEVIN EDWARDS often on Powys with notes about family. I can not get through; so I am asking anyone who know him ; TO PLEASE DOME A FAVOR AND PASS ON A MESSAGE that my email address of ldbest@persona.ca.and I have found the Ashton line...to our tree.he has been querying about and I am in contact with one of his other Davies cousins... His Elizabeth [nee] Ashton Davies and my Anne [nee Ashton] Evans and Samantha Coleman's Elizabeth [nee Elizabeth Davies] and Cher'rie D Evans ]nee Anne Ashton ] Evans are the same family. And the answer we searched for as to who is the mother of Elizabeth Anne;Thomas. and Jane lay in the various census.\ 1841 census revealed Charles Ashton born @ Y Trefeglwys married to Elizabeth and had children Thomas and Jane too old to be Elizbaeht's children..So that meant there was a first wife...Dwelling place was Gribinfach Trefeglwys [hope I spelt it right] . His occupation was carpenter. 1851 census shows Charels Ashton @ Glennafin-ucha Trefeglwys ; a carpenter age54 with wife Elizabeth 26 born Trefeglwys; Chalres son age 2 ; Daniel Davies son-in-law 26 Trefeglwys ag labourer and Elizabeth Davies [wife to Daneil age 27 of Carno 1851 census for Richard Evans family shows them living @ Tysarn Trefeleglwys . He is 33 ; a farmer with 33 acres; Ann is his wife age 34 Carno ; Mary daughter is 8' Ricahrd 6 Charles 3 and Mary their last child age 1. 1861 census of Daniel Davies shows he is living @ Tysia Finnant Trefeglwys age 36 still agr lab ; wife Elizabeth 27 of Carno ; Jane daughter 8 born Trefeglwys; Margaret 5; and Elizabeth Davies 2 .and it also includes Ann Evans 44 widow; Richard Evans 16 farm labourer; Charles Evans 13 apprentice shoemaker and Ann Ashton 11 scholar [Richard and Ann Evans daughter is married to John Lewis. 1871 census of Daniel Davies once more shows the family ties.Daniel Davies is still living @ Tysia Finnant with wife Elizabeth; children Jane 18 dressmaker, Margaret; apprentice seamstress; Elizabeth 11 scholar; Daniel 8 scholar; and John 5. Included in this house census is Mary [nee Evans] Lewis now 28 widowed dressmaker; her children Mary A 7; Lewis 3; Richard 1 and Harriet 2 months. Some helpful person had sent me the Charles Ashton born cir 1860 @ Trefeglwys as my line.. It jus did not compute; as the birth places of both .Elizabeth and Anne was Carno; not Trefeglwys.. Charles Ashton ch 10 Jan 1792 Llanidloes Trefeglwys son of Susan Ashton and Edward Morris.LSD files has his christening date on it and it is on marriage certifiacte to the first wife is Jane Jones of Carno. so I began searching again CHARLES ASHTON ch 10 January 1792 @ Trefeglwys and JANE JONES married 20 April 1816 @ Carno.. And it states on the marriage certificate that Edward Morris is the father of Charles Ashton...mother is Susan Ashton. Other children of Susan Ashton Thomas; Anne and Elizabeth, and Jane Ashton. Whether her and Edward Morris were ahead of their time choosing common-in-law is not clear. She had more than one child out of wedlock. it is highly probable she remained faithful to him..whether they lived together or not. Parents of Susan Ashton ch. 18 May 1767 @ Trefeglwys is John Ashton ch 16 Oct 1734 and Susaanah Morgan . Ant this John Ashton ch 16 Oct 1734 @ Trefelgwys is the and son of Charles Ashton [1705- 1752] @ Trefeglwys Charles Ashton born 1698 is the 2nd son of John Ashton ch.6 Feb 1667 Geseilfa Trefeglwys. NOTICE that even the next generation from this Charles Ashton family..married into the Jones. Richard Charles Evans [son of Ann Ashton and Richard Evans ] married Mary Jones born 1846 of LLandbrynmair..@ Carno in 1867/68. Census indicate this Mary Jones may be the daughter of Evan Jones born 1824 and Margaret Owen @ Carno Elizabeth Davies [daughter of Elizabeth Ashton] married Charles B Jones born 1860 @ Kerry Montgomeryshire at Llanidloes.which then goes into the William Wooseman family. Are these two Jones related? .

I have Richard Evans born cir 1817 Trefeglwys ; son of Evan Evans that i am trying to find that Evan Evans family....to get the tree ... This Richard Evans married daughter of Susan Ashton and Edward Morris's Ann born 1818 @ Carno. I wonder if she is not the Ann Ashton ch. 1 August 1818 @ Trefeglwys.

There is a possible death for Richard Newell reg Conway Dec qtr 1915 aged 76. Also a possible death for his wife Jane aged 40? Sep qtr 1884 Reg Pwllheli Possible re-marriage of Richard Pwllheli 1898 Sep qtr?? Perhaps someone could find the family in 1891 and/or 1901 to see if this seems right. Ruth -----Original Message----- From: Lois Hensley <ljhensley@msn.com> To: powys@rootsweb.com Sent: Wed, 5 Mar 2008 3:01 Subject: [POWYS] request for look ups I am looking for information on the following Richard Newell born May 1839--Llanwnog, Montgomeryshire, Wales unknown the date of death or where, may have worked the railroad in Abererech Caernarvon, Wales father is Tomas Newell born 1806--Llandinam, Montgomeryshire unknown the date of death or where. Thank you Lois Hensley ljhensley@msn.com =================== Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2005.plus.com/powyslist.htm ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ________________________________________________________________________ AOL's new homepage has launched. Take a tour at http://info.aol.co.uk/homepage/ now.

Lois, Below is Richard NEWELL's 1881 Census entry and Thomas NEWELL and his wife in the 1861 Census, living at Aberhafesp. There are monumental inscriptions for a younger (1833-1913) Thomas NEWELL and his wife and a couple of their children in the MI's for the parish church of Llandinam -- possibly a son? In the 1881 Census, the only other NEWELLs born Montgomeryshire pre-1810 were an Edward (1804, Caersws), Thomas (1804 Welshpool) and a William (1809, also b. Caersws). You can check www.northwalesbmd.org.uk and/or www.freebmd.org,uk for possible death registration entries. (There's a likely entry in freebmd for 1880, Thomas NEWELL, age 74, Reg. at Newtown and a *possible* entry for Richard, death June Qtr. 1901, Reg. Atcham - spans border of MGY and Shropshire -- age 63.) 1881 Census Index Dwelling: No 14 Carnarvon Road Census Place: Abererch, Caernarvon, Wales Source: FHL Film 1342334 PRO Ref RG11 Piece 5556 Folio 15 Page 21 Marr Age Sex Birthplace Richard NEWELL M 40 M Llanwnog, Montgomery, Wales Rel: Head Occ: Railway Guard Jane NEWELL M 38 F Llanwnog, Montgomery, Wales Rel: Wife Occ: Wife Katie NEWELL U 15 F Llanwnog, Montgomery, Wales Rel: Dau Occ: Gen Serv Nathan NEWELL 14 M Llanwnog, Montgomery, Wales Rel: Son Occ: Engine Cleaner (F Lab) Owen NEWELL 12 M Llanwnog, Montgomery, Wales Rel: Son Occ: Scoler Sissie NEWELL 11 F Ynyscynaiarn, Caernarvon, Wales Rel: Dau Occ: Scoler Thomas NEWELL 9 M Abererch, Caernarvon, Wales Rel: Son Occ: Scoler Hannah NEWELL 7 F Abererch, Caernarvon, Wales Rel: Dau Occ: Scoler Richard NEWELL 6 M Abererch, Caernarvon, Wales Rel: Son Occ: Scoler David NEWELL 19 m M Abererch, Caernarvon, Wales Rel: Son Lewis NEWELL 1 m M Abererch, Caernarvon, Wales Rel: Son 1861 Census, Parish of Aberhafesp (Newtown Enumeration District, Sub-District of Llanwnog, RG9: 4247) (1861 Census Montgomeryshire, CD pub. by Powys FHS): NEWELL Thomas, h, m, 54, ag lab, MGY Llandinam, Lletty, /f7/p7 NEWELL Jane, w, m, 55, wife, MGY Aberhafesp, Lletty, /f7/p7 Going back to the 1851 Census (CD pub. by Powys FHS), it appears Thomas' first wife was a Catherine (so look for her death between 1851 & 1861): 1851 Census, Parish of Llanwnog: NEWEL Thomas h m 45 Ag. lab. MGY Llandinam Little Mill /f456/p1 NEWEL Catherine w m 45 Flannel weaver MGY Llanwrnog Little Mill /f456/p1 NEWEL Elizabeth d u 14 Scholar MGY Llanwrnog Little Mill /f456/p1 NEWEL Nathaniel s u 8 Scholar MGY Llanwrnog Little Mill /f456/p1 NEWEL Jane d u 6 Scholar MGY Llanwrnog Little Mill /f456/p1 EVANS Catherine ml w 79 Midwife, pauper MGY Llanwrnog Little Mill /f456/p1 Also, young Richard working as a "plough boy" for the SAVAGE family of Penyborfa -- 1851 Census, Parish of Llanwnog: SAVAGE William h m 54 Fmr 140a emp 2 sv. MGY Trefeglwys Penyborfa /f459/p8 SAVAGE Dorothy w m 48 MGY Llandinam Penyborfa /f459/p8 SAVAGE Nicholas s u 24 Fmr.'s son MGY Llanidloes Penyborfa /f459/p8 SAVAGE Dorothy d u 19 Fmr.'s daughter MGY Llandinam Penyborfa /f459/p8 SAVAGE Mary d u 16 Fmr.'s daughter MGY Trefeglwys Penyborfa /f459/p8 SAVAGE Jane d u 14 Fmr.'s daughter MGY Trefeglwys Penyborfa /f459/p8 SAVAGE Sarah d u 11 Scholar MGY Trefeglwys Penyborfa /f459/p8 SAVAGE John s u 7 Scholar MGY Llanwrnog Penyborfa /f459/p8 SAVAGE Richard s u 5 MGY Llanwrnog Penyborfa /f459/p8 SAVAGE Margaret d u 1 MGY Llanwrnog Penyborfa /f459/p8 JOHN Richard sv u 24 Ag. lab. MGY Llanwrnog Penyborfa /f459/p8 NEWEL Richard sv u 11 Plough boy MGY Llanwrnog Penyborfa /f459/p8 ------------------- Kind regards, Julie Preston juliefpreston@sbcglobal.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lois Hensley" <ljhensley@msn.com> To: <powys@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2008 10:01 PM Subject: [POWYS] request for look ups >I am looking for information on the following > > Richard Newell > born May 1839--Llanwnog, Montgomeryshire, Wales > unknown the date of death or where, may have worked the railroad in > Abererech Caernarvon, Wales > > father is > Tomas Newell > born 1806--Llandinam, Montgomeryshire > unknown the date of death or where. > > Thank you > Lois Hensley > ljhensley@msn.com > > =================== > Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: > www.jlb2005.plus.com/powyslist.htm > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message

Dear John, I have some information which might be of interest to you in providing evidence for the persistence of elements of the patronymic system in parts of Wales in the 1851 census - and, possibly, even later. In the 1841 census of Merionethshire, six of the sons of my ancestor Edward Howell (or Howel) (who died in 1829 in Dolgellau) are to be found together on the family farm, with their mother. They are all listed with the surname Edwards (and what baptismal records I have found use the patronymic 'Edward', with their father being listed as Edward Howel); and Edwards is the surname which persisted. (Their mother is listed under her maiden surname, which is probably also a patronymic.) The oldest son, Howel/Howell, is already married, and on his own farm, also in Merionethshire. where he and his wife are also listed under the surname Edwards. However, their only son, Edward, is listed as Edward Howell (this is not the maiden surname of Howel's wife, whose father I think was probably Thomas Jones). In 1851, the family generally has the surname Edwards, but once again the entry for Howel Edwards' branch is intriguing. He and his wife are listed as Edwards, but their son Edward and his wife are 'Howels', while the son of Edward is 'Howel Edwards'. In 1861 we again have Howel Edwards, with his son Edward Howells (now 'Edward Jones Howells'); there are now three grandchildren: Howel Edwards, Thomas Jones Howells, and Catherine Edwards. We find the same names in 1871, in an entry which confirms that these three are all the children of Edward Jones Howells. By 1881, Edward Howells and his son Thomas and daughter Catherine are all listed as Howells. If you would like further documentation of this please contact me direct: I'd be happy to provide it. Best wishes Shirley Vinall On Mar 3 2008, John Ball wrote: >Anna Brueton <bruetons@anoeth.demon.co.uk> wrote: >I have found examples of patronymics in use as late as the 1851 census, >though without "ap" and "ferch" being used. >=============== > >Dear Anna, > > I'm particularly interested in your reference to occurrences of > patronymics in the 1851 census. Could you possibly give a specific > reference to one of the examples you've encountered, so that I can look > up the census image and possibly cite it in a research paper? > > I've encountered several instances of patronymics on gravestones, but > none as late as mid 19th century. I included one early to mid 18th > century example on my 'Images of Wales' feature on St Baglan's Church, > Baglan, GLA. Although it refers to male individuals rather than females, > it may be of interest to listers. The inscription reads: > -------------------------------------------- > HERE > lieth the body of John David > who departed this life the 10th > day of October 1708 Aged 78 yrs > HERE > also lieth the body of Joan ye wife > of the above John David who de- >parted this life ye 1st day of November > 1726 Aged 87 years > HERE also lieth the body of > David John, Son of the said John >David who departed this life the 24th > day of July 1745 Aged 71 years > Also William John, Grandson of the > said DAVID JOHN who departed.... >------------------------------------------------ >(the rest of the inscription was below ground level) > >Kind regards, > > >John >-------------------- >John Ball, Brecon, Mid-Wales, UK >E-mail: john@jlb2005.plus.com >John's Homepage: http://www.jlb2005.plus.com/ >Images of Wales: http://www.jlb2005.plus.com/walespic/ >Welsh Family History Archive: http://www.jlb2005.plus.com/wales/ > >GENUKI Breconshire Maintainer: http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/BRE/ >Joint Administrator - Powys (& BRE/MGY/RAD) RootsWeb mailing lists > > >=================== >Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2005.plus.com/powyslist.htm > > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send > an email to POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

I am looking for information on the following Richard Newell born May 1839--Llanwnog, Montgomeryshire, Wales unknown the date of death or where, may have worked the railroad in Abererech Caernarvon, Wales father is Tomas Newell born 1806--Llandinam, Montgomeryshire unknown the date of death or where. Thank you Lois Hensley ljhensley@msn.com

Dear John Happy to send you the reference, but not tonight! I'm off to Carmarthen Archives early tomorrow morning, so will send the references when I get back. One parish was Llanddeusant, Carmarthenshire; I seem to thnk it was a Charles Morgan whose offspring were [forename] + Charles, but it could have been the other way round! I have other examples in that parish - for instance Anne Howell named her several illegitimate children by Morgan Davies [forename] + Morgan in the 1841 census, but by 1851 - when the couple were married - the children had acquired the surname Davies. Kind regards Anna :59 03/03/08 -0000, John Ball wrote: >Anna Brueton <bruetons@anoeth.demon.co.uk> wrote: >I have found examples of patronymics in use as late as the 1851 census, >though without "ap" and "ferch" being used. >=============== > >Dear Anna, > >I'm particularly interested in your reference to occurrences of patronymics >in the 1851 census. Could you possibly give a specific reference to one of >the examples you've encountered, so that I can look up the census image and >possibly cite it in a research paper? > >I've encountered several instances of patronymics on gravestones, but none >as late as mid 19th century. I included one early to mid 18th century >example on my 'Images of Wales' feature on St Baglan's Church, Baglan, GLA. >Although it refers to male individuals rather than females, it may be of >interest to listers. The inscription reads: >-------------------------------------------- > HERE > lieth the body of John David > who departed this life the 10th > day of October 1708 Aged 78 yrs > HERE > also lieth the body of Joan ye wife > of the above John David who de- >parted this life ye 1st day of November > 1726 Aged 87 years > HERE also lieth the body of > David John, Son of the said John >David who departed this life the 24th > day of July 1745 Aged 71 years > Also William John, Grandson of the > said DAVID JOHN who departed.... >------------------------------------------------ >(the rest of the inscription was below ground level) > >Kind regards, > > >John >-------------------- >John Ball, Brecon, Mid-Wales, UK >E-mail: john@jlb2005.plus.com >John's Homepage: http://www.jlb2005.plus.com/ >Images of Wales: http://www.jlb2005.plus.com/walespic/ >Welsh Family History Archive: http://www.jlb2005.plus.com/wales/ > >GENUKI Breconshire Maintainer: http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/BRE/ >Joint Administrator - Powys (& BRE/MGY/RAD) RootsWeb mailing lists > > >=================== >Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2005.plus.com/powyslist.htm > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Anna Brueton <bruetons@anoeth.demon.co.uk> wrote: I have found examples of patronymics in use as late as the 1851 census, though without "ap" and "ferch" being used. =============== Dear Anna, I'm particularly interested in your reference to occurrences of patronymics in the 1851 census. Could you possibly give a specific reference to one of the examples you've encountered, so that I can look up the census image and possibly cite it in a research paper? I've encountered several instances of patronymics on gravestones, but none as late as mid 19th century. I included one early to mid 18th century example on my 'Images of Wales' feature on St Baglan's Church, Baglan, GLA. Although it refers to male individuals rather than females, it may be of interest to listers. The inscription reads: -------------------------------------------- HERE lieth the body of John David who departed this life the 10th day of October 1708 Aged 78 yrs HERE also lieth the body of Joan ye wife of the above John David who de- parted this life ye 1st day of November 1726 Aged 87 years HERE also lieth the body of David John, Son of the said John David who departed this life the 24th day of July 1745 Aged 71 years Also William John, Grandson of the said DAVID JOHN who departed.... ------------------------------------------------ (the rest of the inscription was below ground level) Kind regards, John -------------------- John Ball, Brecon, Mid-Wales, UK E-mail: john@jlb2005.plus.com John's Homepage: http://www.jlb2005.plus.com/ Images of Wales: http://www.jlb2005.plus.com/walespic/ Welsh Family History Archive: http://www.jlb2005.plus.com/wales/ GENUKI Breconshire Maintainer: http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/BRE/ Joint Administrator - Powys (& BRE/MGY/RAD) RootsWeb mailing lists

Hi Emily, Just an off chance but did your Francis family end up in Albany Wisconsin? Albany is being made a Historical site, Details from cbagley@charter.net The Francis family recorded there arrived from Wales in1854. I have a small tree before they left Radnorhire. Family names are : William b. 1801 married Margaret b. 1806 Children Mary 1830; William 1832; Thomas 1834; Eliza 1836; George 1838; James 1838; Emma 1844 Henry 1847 and Anne 1850. Regards Lloyd Editor, Cronicl Powys www.rootsweb.com/~wlspfhs ----- Original Message ----- From: "Emily Young" <chip-emily@juno.com> To: <POWYS@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 11:03 PM Subject: [POWYS] FRANCIS family > 6 January 2008 > > Hello List, > > I'm looking for my great grandmother's family. She (Anne FRANCIS ) > married William W. Evans in Glamorgan, 14 March 1858. A daughter born 14 > Feb. 1859. I have both certificates for these dates & they both show > Merthyr Tydfil District, counties of Glamorgan & Brecon. > > I have William, Anne & their daughter, Ann on the 1861 Census, in > Glamorgan. > > Anne Francis was born 17 Sept. 1832. I have a list of her 7 siblings, > with birth dates. She was the oldest, the others were born 2 years apart > after that. Other than that I have no other information in Wales. > > William & Anne with 2 children came to Nova Scotia in 1864. I have the > ship passenger list. > > I have had searches made for them in Glamorgan & Carmarthen but they are > not there so I'm hoping SKS will look in Breconshire for them. > > Thanks in advance for any help. > > Sincerely, > > Emily Young > Lancaster, Ohio > USA > > =================== > Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2005.plus.com/powyslist.htm > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

That is not a very usual abbreviation for uxor - I think the others are more likely options. Best wishes Anne -----Original Message----- From: powys-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:powys-bounces@rootsweb.com]On Behalf Of John Ball Sent: 02 March 2008 21:02 To: powys@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [POWYS] Patronymics Another suggestion: 'VZ' may be a rendering of the Latin 'uxor' = wife, in which case the examples I cited would be: Neste vz Richart. (Neste wife of Richart) Tanglust vz William ap Rees. (Tanglust wife of William son of Rees) Regards, John -------------------- John Ball, Brecon, Mid-Wales, UK E-mail: john@jlb2005.plus.com John's Homepage: http://www.jlb2005.plus.com/ Images of Wales: http://www.jlb2005.plus.com/walespic/ Welsh Family History Archive: http://www.jlb2005.plus.com/wales/ GENUKI Breconshire Maintainer: http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/BRE/ Joint Administrator - Powys (& BRE/MGY/RAD) RootsWeb mailing lists Anne Welch <anne.welch@virgin.net> wrote: It ['vz'] is an abbreviation of the Latin 'videlicet' and translates as 'namely' - and specific detail will follow a statement - for example 'my children' - 'namely Tom, Dick and Harry'. =============== Dear Anne, That may be so, but I think in the context of the examples quoted by Lloyd Lewis, 'vz' stands for 'verch' (anglicised spelling of 'ferch') meaning 'daughter (of)'. E.g. from Lloyd's list: Neste vz Richart. (Neste daughter of Richart) Tanglust vz William ap Rees. (Tanglust daughter of William son of Rees) Kind regards, John =================== Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2005.plus.com/powyslist.htm ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Regards the abbreviation 'vz'. In the US them abbreviation ' viz ' (pronounced vis) is used, in place of videlicet. Its usuage is almost always in legal documents. Jim **************It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms, and advice on AOL Money & Finance. (http://money.aol.com/tax?NCID=aolprf00030000000001)

Dear All Many apologies - I am guilty of not looking at the context at all - but Wow - doesn't genealogy lead us to interesting places - two - well I hesitate to say 'foreign' languages - but I think you get my gist. Thanks for putting us straight John. The reason I posted was that I remembered a post where someone thought they had discovered a previously unknown child in a will - and it looked like the eldest - first in the list - and yes - it was 'videlicet'! Best wishes Anne -----Original Message----- From: powys-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:powys-bounces@rootsweb.com]On Behalf Of John Ball Sent: 02 March 2008 20:54 To: powys@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [POWYS] Patronymics Anne Welch <anne.welch@virgin.net> wrote: It ['vz'] is an abbreviation of the Latin 'videlicet' and translates as 'namely' - and specific detail will follow a statement - for example 'my children' - 'namely Tom, Dick and Harry'. =============== Dear Anne, That may be so, but I think in the context of the examples quoted by Lloyd Lewis, 'vz' stands for 'verch' (anglicised spelling of 'ferch') meaning 'daughter (of)'. E.g. from Lloyd's list: Neste vz Richart. (Neste daughter of Richart) Tanglust vz William ap Rees. (Tanglust daughter of William son of Rees) Kind regards, John -------------------- John Ball, Brecon, Mid-Wales, UK E-mail: john@jlb2005.plus.com John's Homepage: http://www.jlb2005.plus.com/ Images of Wales: http://www.jlb2005.plus.com/walespic/ Welsh Family History Archive: http://www.jlb2005.plus.com/wales/ GENUKI Breconshire Maintainer: http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/BRE/ Joint Administrator - Powys (& BRE/MGY/RAD) RootsWeb mailing lists =================== Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2005.plus.com/powyslist.htm ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Bryn Thanks very much for the example. I'm sorry if I took your words out of context, but I think it's worth raising the subject, as the application of the patronymic system to women is rarely fully discussed. Thanks to Lloyd for the extract from the Brecon wills, which of course are indexed by first name, because patronymics are in use (which I had temporarily forgotten!). There is no indication of the marital state of the people listed, though I guess it's unlikely that they are all single! Carla "vz" is an a common abbreviation for "verch", an alternative spelling of "ferch" - daughter. "z" was often used as an abbreviation for "ch", for instance the name Rudderch may be shown as "Ruddz". Its impossible to give a date for changes from Welsh naming practices to English - it took place gradually from around the fifteenth century to the nineteenth, though most people seem to have been using surnames by the end of the eighteenth century. It happened first among the gentry, who had largely abandoned patronymics by the end of the seventeenth century. Patronymics tended to die out earlier in towns, where there might be a substantial English presence, than in the country, where people tended to preserve old traditions. I have found examples of patronymics in use as late as the 1851 census, though without "ap" and "ferch" being used. Anna

Another suggestion: 'VZ' may be a rendering of the Latin 'uxor' = wife, in which case the examples I cited would be: Neste vz Richart. (Neste wife of Richart) Tanglust vz William ap Rees. (Tanglust wife of William son of Rees) Regards, John -------------------- John Ball, Brecon, Mid-Wales, UK E-mail: john@jlb2005.plus.com John's Homepage: http://www.jlb2005.plus.com/ Images of Wales: http://www.jlb2005.plus.com/walespic/ Welsh Family History Archive: http://www.jlb2005.plus.com/wales/ GENUKI Breconshire Maintainer: http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/BRE/ Joint Administrator - Powys (& BRE/MGY/RAD) RootsWeb mailing lists Anne Welch <anne.welch@virgin.net> wrote: It ['vz'] is an abbreviation of the Latin 'videlicet' and translates as 'namely' - and specific detail will follow a statement - for example 'my children' - 'namely Tom, Dick and Harry'. =============== Dear Anne, That may be so, but I think in the context of the examples quoted by Lloyd Lewis, 'vz' stands for 'verch' (anglicised spelling of 'ferch') meaning 'daughter (of)'. E.g. from Lloyd's list: Neste vz Richart. (Neste daughter of Richart) Tanglust vz William ap Rees. (Tanglust daughter of William son of Rees) Kind regards, John

Anne Welch <anne.welch@virgin.net> wrote: It ['vz'] is an abbreviation of the Latin 'videlicet' and translates as 'namely' - and specific detail will follow a statement - for example 'my children' - 'namely Tom, Dick and Harry'. =============== Dear Anne, That may be so, but I think in the context of the examples quoted by Lloyd Lewis, 'vz' stands for 'verch' (anglicised spelling of 'ferch') meaning 'daughter (of)'. E.g. from Lloyd's list: Neste vz Richart. (Neste daughter of Richart) Tanglust vz William ap Rees. (Tanglust daughter of William son of Rees) Kind regards, John -------------------- John Ball, Brecon, Mid-Wales, UK E-mail: john@jlb2005.plus.com John's Homepage: http://www.jlb2005.plus.com/ Images of Wales: http://www.jlb2005.plus.com/walespic/ Welsh Family History Archive: http://www.jlb2005.plus.com/wales/ GENUKI Breconshire Maintainer: http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/BRE/ Joint Administrator - Powys (& BRE/MGY/RAD) RootsWeb mailing lists

Dear Carla It is an abbreviation of the Latin 'videlicet' and translates as 'namely' - and specific detail will follow a statement - for example 'my children' - 'namely Tom, Dick and Harry'. HTH Anne -----Original Message----- From: powys-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:powys-bounces@rootsweb.com]On Behalf Of cbodette@wi.rr.com Sent: 02 March 2008 16:52 To: powys@rootsweb.com Cc: powys-request@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [POWYS] POWYS Digest, Vol 3, Issue 62 Hello Lloyd & Listers, Could someone elaborate on this a bit more. What is "vz" ? The examples given were from both the 1500's and the 1700's. When did this practice change to include the husbands surname only? Best Wishes, Carla Message: 3 Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2008 12:09:56 -0000 From: "Lloyd Lewis" <lloyd.lewis1@virgin.net> Subject: Re: [POWYS] Patronymics To: <powys@rootsweb.com> Message-ID: <001401c87c5e$7e66de60$0300a8c0@editor> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi Anna, Here are a few extracts from the Wills in the Diocese of Brecon listed in the NLW Probate Records pre 1660: Anest vz Ievan David. Clodock 1573 Angharad vz Lello Bedo ap Madock. Llanfihangel Rhydithon 1563 Cicilly vz David William. Llanfaes 1576 Elenor vz David. Bleddfa 1588 Gwenllian vz Howell. Llanganten Widow 1578 Isbell vz Lewis. Glasbury Widow 1587 Johane vz Thomas. St Margarets Widow 1576 Llickey vz John. Crickadarn Widow 1583 Mallt vz Richard. Llanfigan 1582 Neste vz Richart. Penderyn 1581 Tanglust vz William ap Rees. Clodock 1578 As you will note they are listed by first name. Hope this will answer your query. Lloyd Editor, Cronicl Powys www.rootsweb.com/~wlspfhs ----- Original Message ----- From: "Anna Brueton" <bruetons@anoeth.demon.co.uk> To: <powys@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2008 9:43 AM Subject: Re: [POWYS] Patronymics > I apologise for retruning to the subject of patronymics somewhat late, but > I have been away. > > In Bryn Eillis's otherwise excellent account of patronymics, referred to by =================== Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2005.plus.com/powyslist.htm ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Anna, Here are a few extracts from the Wills in the Diocese of Brecon listed in the NLW Probate Records pre 1660: Anest vz Ievan David. Clodock 1573 Angharad vz Lello Bedo ap Madock. Llanfihangel Rhydithon 1563 Cicilly vz David William. Llanfaes 1576 Elenor vz David. Bleddfa 1588 Gwenllian vz Howell. Llanganten Widow 1578 Isbell vz Lewis. Glasbury Widow 1587 Johane vz Thomas. St Margarets Widow 1576 Llickey vz John. Crickadarn Widow 1583 Mallt vz Richard. Llanfigan 1582 Neste vz Richart. Penderyn 1581 Tanglust vz William ap Rees. Clodock 1578 As you will note they are listed by first name. Hope this will answer your query. Lloyd Editor, Cronicl Powys www.rootsweb.com/~wlspfhs ----- Original Message ----- From: "Anna Brueton" <bruetons@anoeth.demon.co.uk> To: <powys@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2008 9:43 AM Subject: Re: [POWYS] Patronymics > I apologise for retruning to the subject of patronymics somewhat late, but > I have been away. > > In Bryn Eillis's otherwise excellent account of patronymics, referred to by > Julie Preston, I was troubled by the following, which seemed to me liable > to confuse: > > "Please note that a woman did not [could not!] adopt her husband's > 'surname' on marriage - she retained her family name throughout her life." > > Although the statement is not incorrect, it rather skates over the > compexity of actual practice, It implies that under the patronymic system, > married and widowed women are likely to be referred to solely by their > father's name - which I don't think is generally true. In my experience > the system is something like this: > > Women are always described in relation to men. Single women are their > father's daughter (Elen ferch Morgan Rees); on marriage they become their > husband's wife (Elen wraig David ap Rosser). but they do not lose their > patronymic. In contexts where the husband's name is explicit or implied, > they may be referred to by their patronymic. Examples may be found in > baptismal registers and wills (I leave to my wife Elen verch Morgan...). > In burial registers married women are usually listed as the wife or widow > of their husband. > > I have never come across examples of married or widowed women described > only by their patronymic, and I would be very interested to learn of any. > A further question is how wills of widows using the patronymic system are > indexed in the diocesan collections at NLW. If Elen had written her will > as "I Elen verch Morgan, widow of David Prosser...", would it be indexed > under Morgan or Prosser? Has anyone any experience of this? > > Anna Brueton > > =================== > Visit the Powys Mailing List webpage at: www.jlb2005.plus.com/powyslist.htm > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to POWYS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hello Lloyd & Listers, Could someone elaborate on this a bit more. What is "vz" ? The examples given were from both the 1500's and the 1700's. When did this practice change to include the husbands surname only? Best Wishes, Carla Message: 3 Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2008 12:09:56 -0000 From: "Lloyd Lewis" <lloyd.lewis1@virgin.net> Subject: Re: [POWYS] Patronymics To: <powys@rootsweb.com> Message-ID: <001401c87c5e$7e66de60$0300a8c0@editor> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi Anna, Here are a few extracts from the Wills in the Diocese of Brecon listed in the NLW Probate Records pre 1660: Anest vz Ievan David. Clodock 1573 Angharad vz Lello Bedo ap Madock. Llanfihangel Rhydithon 1563 Cicilly vz David William. Llanfaes 1576 Elenor vz David. Bleddfa 1588 Gwenllian vz Howell. Llanganten Widow 1578 Isbell vz Lewis. Glasbury Widow 1587 Johane vz Thomas. St Margarets Widow 1576 Llickey vz John. Crickadarn Widow 1583 Mallt vz Richard. Llanfigan 1582 Neste vz Richart. Penderyn 1581 Tanglust vz William ap Rees. Clodock 1578 As you will note they are listed by first name. Hope this will answer your query. Lloyd Editor, Cronicl Powys www.rootsweb.com/~wlspfhs ----- Original Message ----- From: "Anna Brueton" <bruetons@anoeth.demon.co.uk> To: <powys@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2008 9:43 AM Subject: Re: [POWYS] Patronymics > I apologise for retruning to the subject of patronymics somewhat late, but > I have been away. > > In Bryn Eillis's otherwise excellent account of patronymics, referred to by