Please note: I hope no one thought I was taking this as my work---I included the translation to show what Michael Allison was responding to. Shirley ----- Original Message ----- From: "Shirley Davis Warren" <swarren2@prodigy.net> To: <mdroots@egroups.com> Sent: Monday, July 31, 2000 8:01 PM Subject: [mdroots] Posey > Translation of the French article from "Dictionaire de la Noblesse par de la > Chenaye-Desbois et Badier" troisieme edition Paris 1870, reprint 1969 > Kraus-Thomson Org. Ltd. > > POSCHET De VOYAUX, nobel family of German origins, which was transplanted in > diverse provinces because of wars. One of this name was established in > Voyoux, District of Maubeuge, sub-district of Valenciennes. > > I. Eustache-Joseph Poschet, Knight, Lord of Raazem, Lieutenant of the Royal > Guard, married Mathilde de Foeleimberg, from which union: > 1. Philippe-Octave-Emmanuel, who follows > 2. and Albert-Joseph, Knight of the order of St. John of Jerusalem [Note: > this means he went on one of the Crusades] who passed on this inherited > title > in 1458 to > > II. Philippe-Octabe-Emmanuel Poschet, Knight, Viscount of Raazem, Colonel > of > Infantry, married to Reinelde-Eleonore de Montecuculli, from which union: > 1. Philippe-Theodore, who follows > 2. and Reinelde-Philippifle, who was received as Cannonesse of the nobel > Adenne Chapter. > > III. Philippe-Theodore Poschet, Knight, Viscount of Raazem, Colonel of > Infantry, who married Alyde-Rechared de Longueville, from which union > > IV. Josephe Poschet, Esquire [possibly "master of horses"], Lord of > Generet, > Lieutenant-Colonel of the Nassau Regiment, who was married, according to a > contract of 30 May 1523 to Jeanne-Marguerite de Lalaing, of whom he had > > V. Mathieu Poschet, Esquire, Captain of the Nassau Regiment, then Mayor of > the City of Ath, who was married to Alyde Polayndre, Baroness of Kerkhoven, > from which union: > > VI. Gilles Poschet, Esquire, Sargeant-Major of Infantry at the siege of > Ostend, who married, according to a contract of 3 April 1551, Jeanne de > Ghozee, which union produced among other children: > 1. Martin, who follows > 2. and Jean-Baptiste, Knight, President of the Sovereign Counsel fo Namur, > who was father of Pierre, who was knighted by letter of [the abbreviation is > S.M.C which Gus believes is Sa Majeste or His Majesty with C=???, this was > during the reign of Louis XIV], dated January 1664 and Captain in the > Regiment of Colonel de la Mothe > > VII. Martin Poschet, Knight, Lord of Vaux, was married 1st to Anne de > Colnet; and 2nd to Iseabeau Tamison, died childless; Of the first bed came > > VIII Michel Poschet, Esquire, Lorde of Vaux, who married Marie le Mosnier > de > la Lobbe, from which union > > IX. Michel de Poschet, II of the name, Knight, Lord of Vaux, etc. who > married Ursule Jacquier de Gesvres, from who issued > > X. Francois Poschet, Knight, Lord of Nahaut, who, from his household with > Charlotte Poschet [note: no other identity of Charlotte] had > 1. Pierre-Francois, who wished to develop the value of a grant which he > had, > these being lands under the control of The Empire and obtained > letters-patent > from S.M.I. [note: again the abbreviation probably means Sa Majeste or His > Majesty with the I being unknown. This was during the reign of Louis XV] > of > December 17, 1749, who confirmed him, as well as his son in the state of > "the > nobility of the sword" [See History Note at end]; these letters have been > registered at the Chamber of Accounts, Finances and Heraldic Courts for > Brussels, Mons, and Luxembourg the 7, 29, and 30 of January, 1750 > 2. Pierre-Joseph, who established himself in the Provence of Champagne and > whose nobility was continued by an Order of the Steward of the Provence of > September 1741. > 3. and Manie-Cathenine-Therese, who married, according to a contract dated > 1 > April 1723, Louis de Lancy, Lord of the Bois de Caberet [note this > translates > as Tavern Grove], Knight of Saint Louis, Commander of the second batallion > of > the Champagne Regiment, of whom she was widowed, and had, among other > chidren: > 1. Louis-Charles de Lancy, Capitain of the same regiment; > 2. and Nicolas-Charles-Gabriel de Lancy, Capitain in the Conde Regiment, > Infantry. > > [Voy=Voyez] Look: LANCY The Arms: silver, with chevrons of gules [see > Note > following], accompanied by 3 stars of 6 points each, sumounted by a silver > helmet and bounlet [?? could not translate] and gules. Crest: A star of > gules. [Note on heraldry from the Enclylopedia Britannica, "The field or > ground of the shield is of one of three kinds: a colour, a metal, or a fur. > There are five main colours (known as tinctures): azure (blue), gules (red), > sable (black), vert (green), and purpure (purple)." There were also other > colors in English heraldry. [Note, this is the Lancy arms and not directly > of the Poshet's] > > History Notes: In the 18th Century of France, the old nobility were not > producing enough sane and intelligent people to do all of the jobs that were > expected of them. Some who were more able were intrested in increasing > their > own independent power and wealth rather than working for the Crown. So, as > talented people from the bourgeoisie - the wealthy but not noble class - > gained high positions as advisors, they were ennobled by the King. If they > were not Nobles of the Sword, then they were Nobles of the Robe, referring > to > the robe of their official office. Another way to achieve nobility would be > for a rich merchant to marry an empoverished noble daughter. > > Titles, especially at times of royal succession, could get quite confusing > and if a noble backed the side that lost, his land would revert to the crown > through confiscation. This was then re-issued to those now in favor. So, a > Count of xxx would lose his land and have it bestowed on someone else who > would then become the Count of xxx. > > Gretchen Kohl [Alameda,CA] - GretchenKohl@aol.com > > > > Re: Poschet Vaux Cambrai 1500 > Posted by: Michael Allison Date: July 31, 2000 at 11:50:48 > In Reply to: Poschet Vaux Cambrai 1500 by Shirley of 1256 > > > The flip side of this is, unfortunately, that it isn't true. There is plenty > of solid evidence that the POSCHET family's "ALLEGED" noble ancestry is, > bluntly put, an act of intentional fraud. Even more unfortunate is the fact > that there has been absolutely no genealogical connection of the POSEY > family to the POSCHET family established, other than often repeated > erroneous claims which have never included even the first reference to > source documents. Not a single person who claims POSCHET ancestry has ever > produced a single record to back up the claim. Apparently this tale is never > going to die until someone discovers the names of the parents and ancestors > of FRANCIS POSEY. > > As always, I would be thrilled if someone can present even conjectural > evidence of a connection of these two families, but no one ever can. I think > we all know why -- no such evience exists. > > > If anyone wants to see the evidence of the POSCHET SCAM and the act of fraud > behind of all of this, check out the following source. It's written in > French, but worth the effort to get it translated if you want to be able to > let go of this "Poschet mystique" that has been a stumbling block to Posey > research for so long. > > Take a look at an expose of the affair with details about forged documents. > The book is entitled "Les Polchet, Poschet > ou Poschet, une Dynastie de Maitres de Forges de L'entre-Sambre-et-Meuse". > Publisher: Genealogicum Belgicum, > Brussells, Belgium, 1983. I only had to read the brief translations of key > passages to go straight to my files and purge this Poschet business out of > my system. Sure would be nice to have something to put in its place > Posted by: Michael Allison Date: July 31, 2000 at 11:50:48 > In Reply to: Poschet Vaux Cambrai 1500 by Shirley of 1256 > Posted by: Michael Allison Date: July 31, 2000 at 14:23:47 > In Reply to: Re: Poschet Vaux Cambrai 1500 by Michael Allison of 1256 > > > PS > Sorry I forgot to mentioned that LDS has the above noted book. If it is > available on microfilm, I don't know. I do know that it is on the shelf in > Salt Lake City. > > > > > The flip side of this is, unfortunately, that it isn't true. There is plenty > of solid evidence that the POSCHET family's "ALLEGED" noble ancestry is, > bluntly put, an act of intentional fraud. Even more unfortunate is the fact > that there has been absolutely no genealogical connection of the POSEY > family to the POSCHET family established, other than often repeated > erroneous claims which have never included even the first reference to > source documents. Not a single person who claims POSCHET ancestry has ever > produced a single record to back up the claim. Apparently this tale is never > going to die until someone discovers the names of the parents and ancestors > of FRANCIS POSEY. > > As always, I would be thrilled if someone can present even conjectural > evidence of a connection of these two families, but no one ever can. I think > we all know why -- no such evience exists. > > > Followups: > > Re: Poschet Vaux Cambrai 1500 Shirley 7/31/00 > Re: Poschet Vaux Cambrai 1500 Michael Allison 7/31/00 > Re: Poschet Vaux Cambrai 1500 Michael Allison 7/31/00 > > > > >