Thanks again Fred, Tina asked about given names. The 1891 census in Liverpool showed his name as William Vauchglanus, his wife Margaret and children Gertrude, Joseph and Margaret. I took it that he would have taken an English first name and that William was not his original name but I don't know. I suppose given his childrens first names that they would be catholics. Regards John ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tina Ellis" <polska.research@gmail.com> To: <polandbordersurnames@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, October 08, 2007 3:00 PM Subject: Re: [PBS] VAUCHGLANUS or VOUCHYLANUS > Fred seems to think it would be unusual for it to be a Jewish surname. > > What was his given name? Was it a Christian one or a Jewish one? There > are > no guarantees, but sometimes that's an easier way to tell. > > Tina > > > On 10/8/07, John Windle <johnwindle@btinternet.com> wrote: >> >> Thanks to Tina and Fred, >> You have helped make sense of this name. I am in my early stages of this >> search and don't have much info to go on. I read that back in 1882, a lot >> of >> Russian/Polish refugees passed through Liverpool on there way to Canada >> and >> America and that some of them stayed and married here. If I assume the >> surname was VAICELIUNAS, is this likely to be a Jewish name and I should >> concentrate my search of the Jewish community areas of that time. >> >> Regards >> John >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Tina Ellis" <polska.research@gmail.com> >> To: <polandbordersurnames@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Sunday, October 07, 2007 5:39 PM >> Subject: Re: [PBS] VAUCHGLANUS or VOUCHYLANUS >> >> >> > Thank you Fred. I did not think to search for a unas >> ending. VAICELIUNAS >> > !!! There are listings in the Lithuanian telephone directory. Now the >> > researcher has at least that much. You are a jewel. I checked Polish >> > anusz >> > and had not luck. No matter what I tried I could find anything >> > similar. >> > Maybe he will find records, which will give him a place name to search. >> > >> > This is the Lithuanian online telephone directory, which I used when >> > trying >> > to help. http://telefonai.zebra.lt/index.php?language=english >> > >> > Tina >> > >> > >> > On 10/7/07, Fred Hoffman <wmfhoffman@sbcglobal.net> wrote: >> >> >> >> Hi, >> >> >> >> John Windle <johnwindle@btinternet.com> asked: >> >> >> >> > Has anyone heard of a Russian or maybe Polish >> >> > surname, >> >> > VAUCHGLANUS or VOUCHYLANUS. I am searching >> >> > for info on this family who moved from Russia to >> >> > Liverpool >> >> > around 1880. In some records the name was >> >> > shortened to Vouch. >> >> >> >> Neither of those names looks or sounds remotely >> >> Polish or Russian. My best guess would be >> >> Lithuanian, because Lithuanian surnames often end >> >> in -ANIS, -ONYS, -ANUS, etc. And as others have >> >> remarked, Lithuania was part of the Russian Empire >> >> from roughly 1772 to the end of World War I. So a >> >> Lithuanian would be categorized as a Russian, >> >> officially speaking. (Historically Lithuania and >> >> Poland were long joined as a single nation; and >> >> between World Wars I and II much of Lithuania was >> >> ruled by Poland. That could explain how Polish >> >> became part of the mix.) >> >> >> >> If you put a gun to my head and made me guess at >> >> the original name, I'd guess something along the >> >> lines of VAICELIUNAS (with a little v mark over >> >> the C), which would sound kind of like >> >> "vi-chell-OO-nass." That's a very rough indication >> >> of what it would sound like -- talk to a >> >> Lithuanian to hear what it really sounds like. My >> >> point is that VAICELIUNAS is a moderately common >> >> name among Lithuanians, and it could easily be >> >> misspelled by someone who wasn't familiar with the >> >> name. Also, Lithuanian A often equates to O in >> >> Russian, and all official documents had to be in >> >> Russian, with names usually written phonetically >> >> in the Cyrillic alphabet. It wouldn't be odd for >> >> VAICELIUNAS to be transliterated into Cyrillic >> >> characters that equate to VOICHILUNAS. Then when >> >> someone unfamiliar with Lithuanian tried to render >> >> that in our alphabet, VOUCHYLANUS could easily be >> >> the result. >> >> >> >> I can't guarantee that this is right, but I've run >> >> into plenty of similar cases. You have to realize, >> >> you're talking about 1) Lithuanian names 2) being >> >> Russified and rendered in Cyrillic, and then 3) >> >> being spelled out in Roman letters, and then 4) >> >> being massacred further by people who were totally >> >> unfamiliar with Russian and Lithuanian. So the Y >> >> of handwritten VOUCHYLANUS could be misread as a >> >> G, and the O's misread as A. It's that kind of >> >> process that could account for where VAUCHGLANUS >> >> came from. >> >> >> >> I know that's a lot of if's and maybe's -- but >> >> surnames were mutilated all the time, and often >> >> there's no way to reconstruct the original from >> >> the mangled version with any certainty. All I'm >> >> saying is, the name forms you mention sound like >> >> mutilated Lithuanian to me, and that's plausible >> >> because Lithuania was officially part of Russia at >> >> the time. The original name might have been >> >> something like VAICELIUNAS. Or it might not. >> >> Proving it, one way or the other, is the tough >> >> part. But at least these remarks might give you a >> >> little more to work with. >> >> >> >> Fred Hoffman >> >> Author, _Polish Surnames: Origins & Meanings_ >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> >> POLANDBORDERSURNAMES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >> >> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> > >> > ------------------------------- >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > POLANDBORDERSURNAMES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >> > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> POLANDBORDERSURNAMES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > POLANDBORDERSURNAMES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >