Hi All, Now you know why most all offices hand people clipboards filled with forms when you enter their office(s). Screwed up names isn't the half of the problem. But, in years past secretaries used to fill in office forms, with what they heard and what it sounded like. The same name spelling changes took place with my Grandfather. Now we have doctors that will take off the wrong leg - if you haven't marked the leg you want to keep with an "Marks-a-lot" arrow pointing to the one that should be removed. Welcome to planet earth! Jake -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Barbara Smith Sent: Monday, February 16, 2009 3:57 PM To: Fred Hoffman; [email protected] Subject: Re: [PBS] Can someone help me? Importance: High Fred, You are one of the many reasons this website is such a blessing for the many of us that do not have the knowledge you have and are so willing to share. I thank you so much for this explanation even though I am not Gloria, it has helped explain many of the issues I have found and struggle with as well. Barbara Sieracki Smith ----- Original Message ----- From: Fred Hoffman<mailto:[email protected]> To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected] om> Sent: Monday, February 16, 2009 9:53 AM Subject: Re: [PBS] Can someone help me? Hi, Gloria Antypowich posted a very interesting note. The text is too long to repeat all of it here, but obviously anyone can look it up in the list's archives. Gloria, from the info given in that note, it's hard to determine for sure the ethnicity of your husband's grandfather. He could have been of Russian descent, or Polish, or Belarusian; or his ancestors might have been among the many Poles who resettled in Belarus. These peoples have mixed and mingled over the ages, as have their languages and names, and it can be pretty tough to untangle it all. It doesn't help that at one time, Poland (or more properly, the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth) ruled much of what is now Belarus and western Ukraine, so that people living there were often classified as "Polish," even if that wasn't entirely accurate. Then in the late 18th century, the Russian Empire swallowed up those lands, ruling what is now central and eastern Poland, Lithuania, Belarus, and northwestern Ukraine. So from then until after World War I, people from those areas were officially classified as citizens of Russia, and were often called "Russians" for short. In other words, there is often a great deal of ambiguity in the terminology. About the only hope of straightening it all out is to trace the family history -- which is, of course, what you're trying to do. It's a kind of Catch-22 situation. You can't find the family history till you straighten all this stuff out, and you can't straighten this stuff out till you trace the family history. Still, a lot of people manage to break through, just by plugging away at it. I will say this. I think the name of your husband's grandfather appeared in Russian form because he was a citizen of the Russian Empire, and Russian was the official language for all documents. In other words, he wasn't necessarily Russian; but he could have been. Russians probably called him Iosif Antipovich Khvat (I'm rendering the Cyrillic spelling of the name phonetically), which means "Joseph Khvat, the son of Antip." It is standard in Russian to name a person with first name, patronymic, and surname. So even if Antypowicz later became the surname, it was probably due to confusion because people were unfamiliar with Russian naming habits. I'm guessing KHVAT was the surname, and Antipovich the patronymic. In case you're wondering, KHVAT is pronounced with a guttural sound like the "ch" in German "Bach," followed by "vott," all in one syllable. It's hard for English speakers, but not tough at all for Slavs. Poles would render the name as Jozef Antypowicz Chwat. But for Poles, a name ending in -owicz is a surname; they don't use patronymics as a middle name. That could be a contributing factor in the establishment of Antypowicz as the family's surname later on; Poles might have focused on Antypowicz and the Chwat part kind of got lost in the shuffle. Or they might have called him Jozef Chwat and left out the Antypowicz part completely. This confusion may explain why sometimes you see Chwat as the surname, and sometimes Antypowicz. That patronymic, Antypowicz or Antipovich, however you spell it, suggests Belarusian or Russian ancestry, because Poles don't often use the first name Antyp or Antip. It's of Biblical origin, associated with Herod Antipas, but there was also a Saint Antipas of Pergamum or Pergamon mentioned in the Book of Revelations. I doubt many Christians would name children after Herod Antipas, but that saint is a different matter. The name never really caught on in western Europe, or among Poles, who are mostly Catholic. But it did catch on among followers of the Orthodox faith, which included Russians, Ukrainians, and Belarusians. That's why I say the use of that name in the patronymic suggests family origin in the lands east of Poland's modern borders. Those are the areas where you'd be more likely to run into a fellow who was "son of Antip." CHWAT, as Poles spell it, or KHVAT, as we might spell the Cyrillic version in Russian (which looks to us like XBAT), comes from a word used in both Polish and Russian to mean "a plucky, daring fellow." It probably started as a nickname for an ancestor who impressed people with his energy and courage. Unfortunately, the word is used in both Polish and Russian, so its use as a surname doesn't tell us much about the ethnicity of a family that went by it. I don't know how much good this does you, but I hope it clarifies things a little. Fred Hoffman Author, _Polish Surnames: Origins & Meanings_ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected]<mailto:POLANDBORDERSURNAMES-re [email protected]> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message