This is the first time I have written to this site but I have been receiving emails from you for several months. I do not speak Polish, or Russian so I am at a disadvantage. When I try to search in that area I just get lost. I am working on my husbands family's geneology. His family always said they were Polish or White Russian but records that various members of the family have put together simply say Russian. I have spend hours and hours searching for the family but am totally at a loss where to go next. Can someone help me? This is what I have of the family records. My husbands grandfathers name was Joseph Antypowich. Joseph (Josef, Yusif) Antypowich (Antipowich, Antipovich, Antipowicz, Antipovicz, Antipowitcz, Antepovitcz, Chwatt? Chavit??) Born in 1852 in Russia Married in 1879-1899 in Russia to Julianna Kulchitsky (Kulchytsky,Kulezycki, Kulczycki) In Canada the family knew her as Helen and most of them didn't realize that her name was Juianna until it showed up on the 1906 and 1911 Canadian Census, and later again on a baptisimal record for her son John. Julianna was born in Russia in 1866-1868 ( Family stories say she was 15 when she got married) Living children of this marriage born in Russia before they immigrated to Canada in 1904 were: 1. Simeon Chwatt Antipowicz born Aug 12, 1881 in Kovov, Odessa, Russia. 2. Cornella (Kornella) born 1883 in Russia. 3. Victor born July 17, 1888 in Kovov, Torhaewacka (Torhaevaa??)) Russia . Victor married Lena Melashenko born March 22, 1892 in Petroka, Harkow, Russia. She was the daughter of John F. Melashenko and Ywdokia Hardenko. 4. John born July 1891 in Torhaevaa, Russia. 5. Michalena born in 1893 in Rusia 6. Johanna born May 27, 1902 in Crimea, Russia 7. Pertosi (Parask? Bertosi? - he was called Joe in Canada) born in1903, in Russia. Note: They had several other children that died. One child, Olga, who was born in 1892 died in 1904 before the family left. Truthfully they had children almost regularly on a yearly basis. They lost at least 5 other children from what the family records show. Family stories say that the family came to the port in Halifax in June of 1904. I searched every ship record for the port of Halifax in 1904alifax inin and found nothing. So then I checked passengers lists for Montreal, Quebec in 1904, I did not find a family of 9 with any of the variations of Antypowich on any of the ships. But I did find a family of 9 that arrived in Montreal on July 12, 1904 on board the SS Halifax., which had boarded passengers at Rotterdam and Havre. Normally I would not have even looked at the group because the name was in no way Antypowich, it was Chivat. However, they were listed as being "Poles" and there were 9 of them and I instantly saw that some of the names were the same as the Antypowich family: Simon, Victor, John, Michalena, Partose, and Johanna. Closer examination showed that the fathers name was Yusif ( which I later learned is apparently a Bulgarian form of Joseph); the mothers was hard to decipher but it ended with "anna" and the other child was recorded as Codela which I reasoned could be Cornella or possibly a form of it. The birth years of all the family with exception of the two youngest children were off by a variety of years. Remarkably though, all of the listed children were born in the same chronological order as the Antypowich family I was looking for. This family's destination was Winnipeg and I knew that was where the Antypowich family went before they started out for Saskatchewan. I searched the 1904 and 1911 Canadian Census records and I did not find this Chivat family again. I also looked at the records of people crossing from Canada into the USA. I didn't find them. The family stories say that Joseph said that the family name had got changed at immigration because of language differences. I always imagined that was in Canada. But maybe it was in Russia or Rotterdam or maybe from Havre if they boarded there??. Then just recently I got some copies of land application from the Saskatchewan government and found Simon was recorded as Simon Chwatt Antipowicz on his application for land.. None of the existing family can remember anything about that name nor can they explain it. From what I know about that generation of the family and from looking at their hand writing, I do not think the family had any education but Simon was the oldest child and I would think he might have known what his name was back in Russia. Is it possible that the familys name was actually CHWATT and it got changed at immigration to CHIVAT. But then where did the Antipowicz name came from? Was it a patronomic? At the time the family members were making application for land every one of them spelled their Antypowich surname a different way. Another thing is that the remaining family members (all of whom are Joseph Antypowich's grandchildren) are elderly and sometimes they just don't remember but when they think about things they come up with little tidbits. The last time I talked to John Antypowichs daughter she said her father said that they recorded some of the children as being younger than they were, because the tickets for passage were less expensive for younger children. This could account for the difference in birth years for the Civat family-if they happen to be the same family. I am at a dead end and if someone could help me I would so appreciate it. Gloria Antypowich [email protected]

Hi Gloria, May I ask what your source is for the childrens' names, dates, and places of birth? Do you have actual baptismal certificates? Regarding the changing of family names at immigration, that is a myth. Immigration was pretty big business at the turn of the 20th century. Immigrants travelled with passports which would have their names spelled out (though not in English) and the translators were available at the ports of arrival (and probably departure). If anything, names would have changed (for any variety of reasons) after they settled in North America. Regards, Chris > From: [email protected]> To: [email protected]> Date: Sun, 15 Feb 2009 22:53:33 -0800> Subject: [PBS] Can someone help me?> > This is the first time I have written to this site but I have been receiving> emails from you for several months. I do not speak Polish, or Russian so I> am at a disadvantage. When I try to search in that area I just get lost.> > > > I am working on my husbands family's geneology. His family always said they> were Polish or White Russian but records that various members of the family> have put together simply say Russian. I have spend hours and hours> searching for the family but am totally at a loss where to go next. Can> someone help me? This is what I have of the family records. My husbands> grandfathers name was Joseph Antypowich.> > > > Joseph (Josef, Yusif) Antypowich (Antipowich, Antipovich, Antipowicz,> Antipovicz, Antipowitcz, Antepovitcz, Chwatt? Chavit??)> > Born in 1852 in Russia> > Married in 1879-1899 in Russia to> > > Julianna Kulchitsky (Kulchytsky,Kulezycki, Kulczycki) In Canada the family> knew her as Helen and most of them didn't realize that her name> > was Juianna until it> showed up on the 1906 and 1911 Canadian Census, and later again on a> baptisimal record for her son John.> > Julianna was born in> Russia in 1866-1868 ( Family stories say she was 15 when she got married)> > > > Living children of this marriage born in Russia before they immigrated to> Canada in 1904 were:> > > > 1. Simeon Chwatt Antipowicz born Aug 12, 1881 in Kovov, Odessa, Russia.> > 2. Cornella (Kornella) born 1883 in Russia.> 3. Victor born July 17, 1888 in Kovov, Torhaewacka (Torhaevaa??))> Russia . Victor married Lena Melashenko born March 22, 1892 in Petroka,> Harkow, Russia. She was the daughter of John F. Melashenko and Ywdokia> Hardenko. > 4. John born July 1891 in Torhaevaa, Russia.> 5. Michalena born in 1893 in Rusia> 6. Johanna born May 27, 1902 in Crimea, Russia> 7. Pertosi (Parask? Bertosi? - he was called Joe in Canada) born> in1903, in Russia.> > Note: They had several other children that died. One child, Olga, who was> born in 1892 died in 1904 before the family left. Truthfully they had> children almost regularly on a yearly basis. They lost at least 5 other> children from what the family records show.> > > > Family stories say that the family came to the port in Halifax in June of> 1904. I searched every ship record for the port of Halifax in 1904alifax> inin and found nothing. So then I checked passengers lists for Montreal,> Quebec in 1904, I did not find a family of 9 with any of the variations of> Antypowich on any of the ships. But I did find a family of 9 that arrived> in Montreal on July 12, 1904 on board the SS Halifax., which had boarded> passengers at Rotterdam and Havre. Normally I would not have even looked at> the group because the name was in no way Antypowich, it was Chivat.> However, they were listed as being "Poles" and there were 9 of them and I> instantly saw that some of the names were the same as the Antypowich family:> Simon, Victor, John, Michalena, Partose, and Johanna. Closer examination> showed that the fathers name was Yusif ( which I later learned is apparently> a Bulgarian form of Joseph); the mothers was hard to decipher but it ended> with "anna" and the other child was recorded as Codela which I reasoned> could be Cornella or possibly a form of it. The birth years of all the> family with exception of the two youngest children were off by a variety of> years. Remarkably though, all of the listed children were born in the same> chronological order as the Antypowich family I was looking for. This> family's destination was Winnipeg and I knew that was where the Antypowich> family went before they started out for Saskatchewan.> > > > I searched the 1904 and 1911 Canadian Census records and I did not find this> Chivat family again. I also looked at the records of people crossing from> Canada into the USA. I didn't find them. > > > > The family stories say that Joseph said that the family name had got changed> at immigration because of language differences. I always imagined that was> in Canada. But maybe it was in Russia or Rotterdam or maybe from Havre if> they boarded there??. Then just recently I got some copies of land> application from the Saskatchewan government and found Simon was recorded> as Simon Chwatt Antipowicz on his application for land.. None of the> existing family can remember anything about that name nor can they explain> it. From what I know about that generation of the family and from looking at> their hand writing, I do not think the family had any education but Simon> was the oldest child and I would think he might have known what his name was> back in Russia. Is it possible that the familys name was actually CHWATT> and it got changed at immigration to CHIVAT. But then where did the> Antipowicz name came from? Was it a patronomic? At the time the family> members were making application for land every one of them spelled their> Antypowich surname a different way.> > > > Another thing is that the remaining family members (all of whom are Joseph> Antypowich's grandchildren) are elderly and sometimes they just don't> remember but when they think about things they come up with little tidbits.> The last time I talked to John Antypowichs daughter she said her father said> that they recorded some of the children as being younger than they were,> because the tickets for passage were less expensive for younger children.> This could account for the difference in birth years for the Civat family-if> they happen to be the same family.> > > > I am at a dead end and if someone could help me I would so appreciate it.> > > > Gloria Antypowich> > [email protected]> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -------------------------------> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message _________________________________________________________________ Twice the fun—Share photos while you chat with Windows Live Messenger. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/products/messenger.aspx

Chris, I beg to differ. My family came through Ellis in 1898 and the names were changed even though they were written correctly. A 'z' got changed to an 's' in the case of Blazejewski. In some cases the ship passage document was incorrect. Jim On Feb 16, 2009, at 10:21 AM, C. Bukoski wrote: > > Hi Gloria, > > May I ask what your source is for the childrens' names, dates, and > places of birth? Do you have actual baptismal certificates? > > Regarding the changing of family names at immigration, that is a > myth. Immigration was pretty big business at the turn of the 20th > century. Immigrants travelled with passports which would have their > names spelled out (though not in English) and the translators were > available at the ports of arrival (and probably departure). If > anything, names would have changed (for any variety of reasons) > after they settled in North America. > > Regards, > > Chris >> [email protected]

Hi, Gloria Antypowich posted a very interesting note. The text is too long to repeat all of it here, but obviously anyone can look it up in the list's archives. Gloria, from the info given in that note, it's hard to determine for sure the ethnicity of your husband's grandfather. He could have been of Russian descent, or Polish, or Belarusian; or his ancestors might have been among the many Poles who resettled in Belarus. These peoples have mixed and mingled over the ages, as have their languages and names, and it can be pretty tough to untangle it all. It doesn't help that at one time, Poland (or more properly, the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth) ruled much of what is now Belarus and western Ukraine, so that people living there were often classified as "Polish," even if that wasn't entirely accurate. Then in the late 18th century, the Russian Empire swallowed up those lands, ruling what is now central and eastern Poland, Lithuania, Belarus, and northwestern Ukraine. So from then until after World War I, people from those areas were officially classified as citizens of Russia, and were often called "Russians" for short. In other words, there is often a great deal of ambiguity in the terminology. About the only hope of straightening it all out is to trace the family history -- which is, of course, what you're trying to do. It's a kind of Catch-22 situation. You can't find the family history till you straighten all this stuff out, and you can't straighten this stuff out till you trace the family history. Still, a lot of people manage to break through, just by plugging away at it. I will say this. I think the name of your husband's grandfather appeared in Russian form because he was a citizen of the Russian Empire, and Russian was the official language for all documents. In other words, he wasn't necessarily Russian; but he could have been. Russians probably called him Iosif Antipovich Khvat (I'm rendering the Cyrillic spelling of the name phonetically), which means "Joseph Khvat, the son of Antip." It is standard in Russian to name a person with first name, patronymic, and surname. So even if Antypowicz later became the surname, it was probably due to confusion because people were unfamiliar with Russian naming habits. I'm guessing KHVAT was the surname, and Antipovich the patronymic. In case you're wondering, KHVAT is pronounced with a guttural sound like the "ch" in German "Bach," followed by "vott," all in one syllable. It's hard for English speakers, but not tough at all for Slavs. Poles would render the name as Jozef Antypowicz Chwat. But for Poles, a name ending in -owicz is a surname; they don't use patronymics as a middle name. That could be a contributing factor in the establishment of Antypowicz as the family's surname later on; Poles might have focused on Antypowicz and the Chwat part kind of got lost in the shuffle. Or they might have called him Jozef Chwat and left out the Antypowicz part completely. This confusion may explain why sometimes you see Chwat as the surname, and sometimes Antypowicz. That patronymic, Antypowicz or Antipovich, however you spell it, suggests Belarusian or Russian ancestry, because Poles don't often use the first name Antyp or Antip. It's of Biblical origin, associated with Herod Antipas, but there was also a Saint Antipas of Pergamum or Pergamon mentioned in the Book of Revelations. I doubt many Christians would name children after Herod Antipas, but that saint is a different matter. The name never really caught on in western Europe, or among Poles, who are mostly Catholic. But it did catch on among followers of the Orthodox faith, which included Russians, Ukrainians, and Belarusians. That's why I say the use of that name in the patronymic suggests family origin in the lands east of Poland's modern borders. Those are the areas where you'd be more likely to run into a fellow who was "son of Antip." CHWAT, as Poles spell it, or KHVAT, as we might spell the Cyrillic version in Russian (which looks to us like XBAT), comes from a word used in both Polish and Russian to mean "a plucky, daring fellow." It probably started as a nickname for an ancestor who impressed people with his energy and courage. Unfortunately, the word is used in both Polish and Russian, so its use as a surname doesn't tell us much about the ethnicity of a family that went by it. I don't know how much good this does you, but I hope it clarifies things a little. Fred Hoffman Author, _Polish Surnames: Origins & Meanings_

Fred, You are one of the many reasons this website is such a blessing for the many of us that do not have the knowledge you have and are so willing to share. I thank you so much for this explanation even though I am not Gloria, it has helped explain many of the issues I have found and struggle with as well. Barbara Sieracki Smith ----- Original Message ----- From: Fred Hoffman<mailto:[email protected]> To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> Sent: Monday, February 16, 2009 9:53 AM Subject: Re: [PBS] Can someone help me? Hi, Gloria Antypowich posted a very interesting note. The text is too long to repeat all of it here, but obviously anyone can look it up in the list's archives. Gloria, from the info given in that note, it's hard to determine for sure the ethnicity of your husband's grandfather. He could have been of Russian descent, or Polish, or Belarusian; or his ancestors might have been among the many Poles who resettled in Belarus. These peoples have mixed and mingled over the ages, as have their languages and names, and it can be pretty tough to untangle it all. It doesn't help that at one time, Poland (or more properly, the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth) ruled much of what is now Belarus and western Ukraine, so that people living there were often classified as "Polish," even if that wasn't entirely accurate. Then in the late 18th century, the Russian Empire swallowed up those lands, ruling what is now central and eastern Poland, Lithuania, Belarus, and northwestern Ukraine. So from then until after World War I, people from those areas were officially classified as citizens of Russia, and were often called "Russians" for short. In other words, there is often a great deal of ambiguity in the terminology. About the only hope of straightening it all out is to trace the family history -- which is, of course, what you're trying to do. It's a kind of Catch-22 situation. You can't find the family history till you straighten all this stuff out, and you can't straighten this stuff out till you trace the family history. Still, a lot of people manage to break through, just by plugging away at it. I will say this. I think the name of your husband's grandfather appeared in Russian form because he was a citizen of the Russian Empire, and Russian was the official language for all documents. In other words, he wasn't necessarily Russian; but he could have been. Russians probably called him Iosif Antipovich Khvat (I'm rendering the Cyrillic spelling of the name phonetically), which means "Joseph Khvat, the son of Antip." It is standard in Russian to name a person with first name, patronymic, and surname. So even if Antypowicz later became the surname, it was probably due to confusion because people were unfamiliar with Russian naming habits. I'm guessing KHVAT was the surname, and Antipovich the patronymic. In case you're wondering, KHVAT is pronounced with a guttural sound like the "ch" in German "Bach," followed by "vott," all in one syllable. It's hard for English speakers, but not tough at all for Slavs. Poles would render the name as Jozef Antypowicz Chwat. But for Poles, a name ending in -owicz is a surname; they don't use patronymics as a middle name. That could be a contributing factor in the establishment of Antypowicz as the family's surname later on; Poles might have focused on Antypowicz and the Chwat part kind of got lost in the shuffle. Or they might have called him Jozef Chwat and left out the Antypowicz part completely. This confusion may explain why sometimes you see Chwat as the surname, and sometimes Antypowicz. That patronymic, Antypowicz or Antipovich, however you spell it, suggests Belarusian or Russian ancestry, because Poles don't often use the first name Antyp or Antip. It's of Biblical origin, associated with Herod Antipas, but there was also a Saint Antipas of Pergamum or Pergamon mentioned in the Book of Revelations. I doubt many Christians would name children after Herod Antipas, but that saint is a different matter. The name never really caught on in western Europe, or among Poles, who are mostly Catholic. But it did catch on among followers of the Orthodox faith, which included Russians, Ukrainians, and Belarusians. That's why I say the use of that name in the patronymic suggests family origin in the lands east of Poland's modern borders. Those are the areas where you'd be more likely to run into a fellow who was "son of Antip." CHWAT, as Poles spell it, or KHVAT, as we might spell the Cyrillic version in Russian (which looks to us like XBAT), comes from a word used in both Polish and Russian to mean "a plucky, daring fellow." It probably started as a nickname for an ancestor who impressed people with his energy and courage. Unfortunately, the word is used in both Polish and Russian, so its use as a surname doesn't tell us much about the ethnicity of a family that went by it. I don't know how much good this does you, but I hope it clarifies things a little. Fred Hoffman Author, _Polish Surnames: Origins & Meanings_ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message