Ella, Thanks for adding such a thorough explanation. I was searching for a definition in my Polish-English dictionary today when I happened upon a few entries under the letter V (much to my surprise). One of those entries was "vel", definition: also known as. I am assuming that this has become an accepted modern term. Barbara On Jan 13, 2010, at 10:23 AM, singmore wrote: > It is hard to say definitely without seeing the actual registry entry, but it was not uncommon, to add a nickname (vel in Latin) to the real name in order to differentiate people of the same first and last names living in the same village or parish. > > From what you describe, I'd rather read the record as Martinus [Marcin in Polish, Martin in English] Grzymałowski, a son of 'bednarz' [a cooper]. It was very common to add an occupation of either a person himself, or of a person's father to the records. In your case, you can probably assume that even the grandfather was a cooper because Marcin's father Casimir [Kazimierz] was already described as a son of 'bednarz' in the record of Marcin's brother Josephus [Józef in Polish, Joseph in English]. But, as I said above, it is impossible to know for sure without 1)seeing the original record, and 2) without further research on the whole branch of Grzymałowski/Bednarz in the village and maybe even in the neighbouring localities. > > Over time, some of these nicknames were adopted (assumed) by the descendants as their last names for whatever reason or just because that was the name by which they were commonly known to everybody in the vicinity. In consequence, the original last name disappeared into oblivion - only to be discovered by us, the modern genealogists. > > On the other hand, before 1700's a lot of peasants either did not have the last names or were not recorded by their last names anyway. To differentiate between people with the same first names of which there were multitudes in every village, they went about known by either: > > 1) their occupation (don't forget that there was ONLY one miller and ONE Cartwright and ONE cobbler in most villages, so there was no confusion), or > 2) their physical characteristic (like being tall/short/fat/skinny/lame/stuttering, etc.) which also in most cases described just ONE person or > 3) the first name of their father or > 4) the name of the village they came from if they were migrants > > Quite often - which is so infuriating to us today - the entry in the church register would read for example "Maria a miller's daughter married Johannes son of a cartwright". That's it! They (the priests, the church) did not bother with the last names since everybody knew everybody anyway, and there were no standards to follow. The standardization of the record keeping procedures was introduced in Galicia around 1783. > > > ella > >> >>> >>> Hello, >>> I have been researching the "Grzymalowski" family from the villages of >>> Byczkowce and Skorodynce near Chortkiv for sometime. >>> I recently found the marriage record of my GG Grandfather, Martinius >>> Grzynalowski, son of Casimirus and Anna Banachow on Nov 22, 1840. I was >>> surprised to see that the record stated his name as "Martinius Bednarzow >>> vel Grzymalowski". >>> I also found the birth record of his brother, Josephus, with the father >>> shown as "son of Casimirus Bednarzow" and Anna Banachow on March 17, >>> 1816. I appears that in the early 1800's my family name may have been >>> "Bednarzow" and over time changed to Grzymalowski. The children of >>> Matinius and Josephus used only the Grzymalowski name. >>> Is there anyone researching the Bednarzow family in Byczkowce/Skorodynce >>> area? Would I be correct to assume that there was a name change of my >>> family around 1800. >>> Best regards, >>> Ralph Harris >>> > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to POLANDBORDERSURNAMES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Barbara, The word "vel", as Ella mentioned, is not Polish. It is a Latin term usually translated as "or", "actually" or "even", but also mistakenly as "alias" in this context. It is not an accepted "modern" term, but rather has been around and accepted for over 2000 years. Keep in mind that the principal language of the clergy and their records was Latin. Additionally, in a strictly translational sense, the Latin phrase that one occasionally runs across, "A vel B", translates loosely to "A or B" but perhaps more strictly to "A actually/correctly B" which suggests that B was the original name and A the adopted new name. In a similar situation, the phrase "A alias B" usually does not mean that A has adopted B as a replacement name. It means that "at a different time" the person named A has used another name B, but still is known as the person A. But then again, I am not an expert in languages. So others may well wish to offer other opinions. Cheers, Roman On 1/14/2010 6:34 PM, Barbara Karwowski wrote: > Ella, Thanks for adding such a thorough explanation. I was searching > for a definition in my Polish-English dictionary today when I > happened upon a few entries under the letter V (much to my surprise). > One of those entries was "vel", definition: also known as. I am > assuming that this has become an accepted modern term. Barbara On Jan > 13, 2010, at 10:23 AM, singmore wrote: > >> It is hard to say definitely without seeing the actual registry >> entry, but it was not uncommon, to add a nickname (vel in Latin) to >> the real name in order to differentiate people of the same first >> and last names living in the same village or parish. >> sage

Most often in the Polish records the word "dicti" occurrs. This is known as the Przydomek meaning that this is a nickname or the name that the person is known as in the village. Some parishes use this term frequently and others you will never see this term. -----Original Message----- From: Roman <romankal@verizon.net> To: polandbordersurnames@rootsweb.com Sent: Thu, Jan 14, 2010 7:42 pm Subject: Re: [PBS] Bednarz Barbara, The word "vel", as Ella mentioned, is not Polish. It is a Latin term sually translated as "or", "actually" or "even", but also mistakenly as alias" in this context. It is not an accepted "modern" term, but rather as been around and accepted for over 2000 years. Keep in mind that the rincipal language of the clergy and their records was Latin. Additionally, in a strictly translational sense, the Latin phrase that ne occasionally runs across, "A vel B", translates loosely to "A or B" ut perhaps more strictly to "A actually/correctly B" which suggests hat B was the original name and A the adopted new name. In a similar situation, the phrase "A alias B" usually does not mean hat A has adopted B as a replacement name. It means that "at a ifferent time" the person named A has used another name B, but still is nown as the person A. But then again, I am not an expert in languages. So others may well wish o offer other opinions. Cheers, Roman On 1/14/2010 6:34 PM, Barbara Karwowski wrote: Ella, Thanks for adding such a thorough explanation. I was searching for a definition in my Polish-English dictionary today when I happened upon a few entries under the letter V (much to my surprise). One of those entries was "vel", definition: also known as. I am assuming that this has become an accepted modern term. Barbara On Jan 13, 2010, at 10:23 AM, singmore wrote: > It is hard to say definitely without seeing the actual registry > entry, but it was not uncommon, to add a nickname (vel in Latin) to > the real name in order to differentiate people of the same first > and last names living in the same village or parish. > age ------------------------------ o unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to POLANDBORDERSURNAMES-request@rootsweb.com ith the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of he message

Roman, It was my original thought, from my own research, that this was a Latin reference meaning "or". (Please see my previous entry) I was merely surprised to find the term in my Polish dictionary. As well, it is included on a Polish to English translation site. I am wondering why this word would be included in both of those places, with the definition given as "also known as" and the translation as "alias" . I was searching for another word when I happened upon it and thought it curious enough to bring to the attention of this group. Barbara On Jan 14, 2010, at 7:42 PM, Roman wrote: > Barbara, > > The word "vel", as Ella mentioned, is not Polish. It is a Latin term > usually translated as "or", "actually" or "even", but also mistakenly as > "alias" in this context. It is not an accepted "modern" term, but rather > has been around and accepted for over 2000 years. Keep in mind that the > principal language of the clergy and their records was Latin. > > Additionally, in a strictly translational sense, the Latin phrase that > one occasionally runs across, "A vel B", translates loosely to "A or B" > but perhaps more strictly to "A actually/correctly B" which suggests > that B was the original name and A the adopted new name. > > In a similar situation, the phrase "A alias B" usually does not mean > that A has adopted B as a replacement name. It means that "at a > different time" the person named A has used another name B, but still is > known as the person A. > > But then again, I am not an expert in languages. So others may well wish > to offer other opinions. > > Cheers, > > Roman > > On 1/14/2010 6:34 PM, Barbara Karwowski wrote: >> Ella, Thanks for adding such a thorough explanation. I was searching >> for a definition in my Polish-English dictionary today when I >> happened upon a few entries under the letter V (much to my surprise). >> One of those entries was "vel", definition: also known as. I am >> assuming that this has become an accepted modern term. Barbara On Jan >> 13, 2010, at 10:23 AM, singmore wrote: >> >>> It is hard to say definitely without seeing the actual registry >>> entry, but it was not uncommon, to add a nickname (vel in Latin) to >>> the real name in order to differentiate people of the same first >>> and last names living in the same village or parish. >>> > sage > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to POLANDBORDERSURNAMES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Roman, et al, Even though 'vel' is a Latin term, it was, and still is, widely used in Polish language in relation to people who were/are known under different last names at some point in their lives. So, Kowalski vel Malinowski, means Kowalski also known as Malinowski. Mind you it could mean that Kowalski used name Malinowski in the past, or it could mean that he is using both names simultaneously, and that he is known under one name or the other depending, for example, on the place or circumstances. Like in the case of people who assumed different last names to escape justice. Or people who went by one surname in one place and, for whatever reason, different one in some other place. Vel also is used for nicknames. Like in, John Smith vel Long John Silver, or Heidi Smith vel Red Riding Hood. ella -----Original Message----- From: polandbordersurnames-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:polandbordersurnames-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Roman Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2010 7:42 PM To: polandbordersurnames@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PBS] Bednarz Barbara, The word "vel", as Ella mentioned, is not Polish. It is a Latin term usually translated as "or", "actually" or "even", but also mistakenly as "alias" in this context. It is not an accepted "modern" term, but rather has been around and accepted for over 2000 years. Keep in mind that the principal language of the clergy and their records was Latin. Additionally, in a strictly translational sense, the Latin phrase that one occasionally runs across, "A vel B", translates loosely to "A or B" but perhaps more strictly to "A actually/correctly B" which suggests that B was the original name and A the adopted new name. In a similar situation, the phrase "A alias B" usually does not mean that A has adopted B as a replacement name. It means that "at a different time" the person named A has used another name B, but still is known as the person A. But then again, I am not an expert in languages. So others may well wish to offer other opinions. Cheers, Roman On 1/14/2010 6:34 PM, Barbara Karwowski wrote: > Ella, Thanks for adding such a thorough explanation. I was searching > for a definition in my Polish-English dictionary today when I > happened upon a few entries under the letter V (much to my surprise). > One of those entries was "vel", definition: also known as. I am > assuming that this has become an accepted modern term. Barbara On Jan > 13, 2010, at 10:23 AM, singmore wrote: > >> It is hard to say definitely without seeing the actual registry >> entry, but it was not uncommon, to add a nickname (vel in Latin) to >> the real name in order to differentiate people of the same first >> and last names living in the same village or parish. >> sage ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to POLANDBORDERSURNAMES-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message