I have found that documents from ancestry.com and other sites are clearer when I right button click the mouse and open document in Paint. I don't really know why this works but it sure makes is much clearer. I'm trying to help someone fill in thier family tree. Ancestors arrive @ Halifax June 18 1903 on ship Assyria (actually i was told the 20th, but the 18th is the only one i found...) So i looked thru the pages, I think I found one family arriving on page 22, Demczuk, Wasyl 56 yrs, Paranka, Ilko, Peter & ?? girl I am also looking for RURAK & HOURNUK families. They were all suppose to be on the same ship. I'm having a hard time reading the images & even when I save it to my computer it's no help. RURAK, Dmyto/Dan b1861 wife, Annie b.abt 1871 son , Alex. S. b. abt 1899 dau Elena/Helen b. abt 1903 not sure if these kids arrive too or were born in canada... dau. Mary/Maria dau. Pearl, Poulsia are these the same name?? son Vasyl DEMCZUK, Vasyl wife, Paraska Ilka John b1892 (aka John "Norris" in WWI) Peter Athia Annie HRYNIUK, Yurko wife Athia Any help on them would be appreciated. This lady is trying to track down relatives while she still has time.... THANK YOU, Margaret _________________________________________________________________ How fun is this? IMing with Windows Live Messenger just got better. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/products/messenger.aspx ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I'm attaching the tree with my Great Grandfather Michal Bednarczyk, b. 1853, who married on Jul 07 1880 Katzaryna b. circa 1854 Burnatowska, [then Michaly Moskalewicz]. You can see how I have connected them with maiden names, for my convenience. Bednarczyk Szczepan Wereszczynska Abt 1800.pdf (5347), Bednarczyk Sabat Rajchowla Burnatowski Wereszczynska.pdf (5561) Mikolaj Wereszczynska \Bednarczyk\ was born in 1820.*  Your family could be related since I do have blanks in my tree. I can only "guess-timate" the years of birth of parents-Franciszek Sabat Rajchowla \Bednarczyk\ b. 1795 Pielnia, & Klara Bednarczyk \Sabat\ b.1795 Nadolany. They had Jan 1819, Mikolaj 1820* and Katzaryna ________? Mikolaj Bednarczyk was born in 1820, Pielnia he married Apolonia Wereszczynska [guessing she was born 1825] I have found possible children Johann 1846, Jozef 1849, my GGF Michal Feb 1853-Jun 1904, John April 1858 & Joseph 1861. I'm only sure of sons John and Michal, since both lived in Forest City Susquehanna County PA USA. Michal Bednarczyk b. 1853 had seven children. Mary was my Grandmother abt 1889 & she married Georg STRUS b. May 6 1882? If you would you be so kind as to continue our communications without deleting the previous email, I will be grateful. Otherwise we may lose communication for a period of time again.   Can you please share your Family tree and I will send mine.....that is if you really want to pursue these connections to completion.  "smiles" I have so many surnames. The unusual ones should be connected in the subject line in order for me to follow up. Ex. Bednarczyk Strus This took me quite some time to collect so I hope no one is thinking I want them to do my research. I've connected with some relatives and trees from ancestry.com; I've visited various LSD, Libraries, Churches etc. Thank you all....Joanie Wielgus ---------------------------------------------------- --- On Mon, 2/16/09, ibaranski <[email protected]> wrote: From: ibaranski <[email protected]> Subject: Surname Wereszczynska To: "peekaboobrat" <[email protected]> Date: Monday, February 16, 2009, 9:47 AM Joan, I noticed that your list included the name -  WERESZCZYNSKA -.  I also have that name a "Marianna Wereszczynska"  married an  Antoni Baraniecki and their 1st son Stanislaw was born about 1726 in Zukow.  It is possible that Antoni and Marianna came to Zukow from someplace else.  Could there be a connection between your Wereszczynska and mine?  Zukow is located in the area that is now Ukraine.  In 1945 the area changed and the people were relocated.     It is a rather unusual name and I wondered if there could be a connection? Look forward to hearing from you. I plan to write my cousin about my Strus who married a Kilar. Irene, [email protected]        

I'm trying to help someone fill in thier family tree. Ancestors arrive @ Halifax June 18 1903 on ship Assyria (actually i was told the 20th, but the 18th is the only one i found...) So i looked thru the pages, I think I found one family arriving on page 22, Demczuk, Wasyl 56 yrs, Paranka, Ilko, Peter & ?? girl I am also looking for RURAK & HOURNUK families. They were all suppose to be on the same ship. I'm having a hard time reading the images & even when I save it to my computer it's no help. RURAK, Dmyto/Dan b1861 wife, Annie b.abt 1871 son , Alex. S. b. abt 1899 dau Elena/Helen b. abt 1903 not sure if these kids arrive too or were born in canada... dau. Mary/Maria dau. Pearl, Poulsia are these the same name?? son Vasyl DEMCZUK, Vasyl wife, Paraska Ilka John b1892 (aka John "Norris" in WWI) Peter Athia Annie HRYNIUK, Yurko wife Athia Any help on them would be appreciated. This lady is trying to track down relatives while she still has time.... THANK YOU, Margaret _________________________________________________________________ How fun is this? IMing with Windows Live Messenger just got better. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/products/messenger.aspx

Hi, John Skibiski <[email protected]> wrote: > Fred...there was a local Northampton, MA family from Minsk, Belarus who > considered themselves White Russians with the surname Anciporowich. Very interesting! I'd never run into that name before. It would mean "son of Ancipor," and that is listed in one of my books on given names as a variant of Onisifor, a rare given name used by Eastern Slavs and coming from Greek _onesiphoros_, "bringing profit, useful." The book says the namedays are 17 January, 20 September, 11 October, 22 November, 15 and 21 December. Much to my surprise, there's even a Wikipedia page for the name Onesiphoros: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onesiphorus It has Belarusian and Russian counterparts with some info on the name in those languages. Apparently Onesiphoros was a Christian referred to in the New Testament, and the Belarusian and Russian pages say he was one of the "70 minor apostles." (The Russian Wikipedia page on the name says the nameday in the Catholic Church was 16 September). So that is how the name came into Christian naming usage. I assume the various namedays listed would mean there was more than one saint by that name. In any case, this appears to be another of the many Christian names of Greek origin that never caught on to any great extent in western Europe or among Poles, but you do run into it among followers of the Orthodox Church. Like many other names of Greek origin, it underwent a certain amount of modification among Slavs, appearing in such forms as Onisifor, Anisifor, Antsifer, and Ancipor. It would be rare to find a Pole going by this name, but a White Russian or Belarusian -- yes, that makes sense. Fred Hoffman

His name was not changed at all! Augustus is August, with the only difference that Augustus is a LATIN version of August. ALL first names in church records in most of the European countries - certainly in Germany, Austria, Poland - were written in Latin even though in a real life the persons went by their names in the languages of the country - here August. ella -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Joseph C Dorsey Sent: Monday, February 16, 2009 4:33 PM To: [email protected] Subject: [PBS] PBS] Name change "myth" I am almost certain that is how one of my g.g. gandfathers name got to changed from Augustus Reif to August Raif. Joseph Sealy, Texas

Fred, I looked at Gloria's posting, felt she had put in a lot of work, and realised I had not a clue what was going on... And then along came your reply, and I knew it made sense but still I would take some time to follow what was happening! I do hope Gloria can make a breakthrough, maybe even with John's tip. This went a little way to explaining why some Cyrillic ('Polish') documents I offered to look at made so little sense to me. The three names after some kind of Russian convention left me very confused and I've not had a chance to get back and look at them. Thanks so much for your replies (and sometimes I can even spell exquisitely), Bron. On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 4:53 PM, Fred Hoffman <[email protected]>wrote: > Hi, > > Gloria Antypowich posted a very interesting note. The text is too long to > repeat all of it here, but obviously anyone can look it up in the list's > archives. > > Gloria, from the info given in that note, it's hard to determine for sure > the ethnicity of your husband's grandfather. He could have been of Russian > descent, or Polish, or Belarusian; or his ancestors might have been among > the many Poles who resettled in Belarus. These peoples have mixed and > mingled over the ages, as have their languages and names, and it can be > pretty tough to untangle it all. It doesn't help that at one time, Poland > (or more properly, the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth) ruled much of what > is > now Belarus and western Ukraine, so that people living there were often > classified as "Polish," even if that wasn't entirely accurate. Then in the > late 18th century, the Russian Empire swallowed up those lands, ruling what > is now central and eastern Poland, Lithuania, Belarus, and northwestern > Ukraine. So from then until after World War I, people from those areas were > officially classified as citizens of Russia, and were often called > "Russians" for short. > > In other words, there is often a great deal of ambiguity in the > terminology. > About the only hope of straightening it all out is to trace the family > history -- which is, of course, what you're trying to do. It's a kind of > Catch-22 situation. You can't find the family history till you straighten > all this stuff out, and you can't straighten this stuff out till you trace > the family history. Still, a lot of people manage to break through, just by > plugging away at it. > > I will say this. I think the name of your husband's grandfather appeared in > Russian form because he was a citizen of the Russian Empire, and Russian > was > the official language for all documents. In other words, he wasn't > necessarily Russian; but he could have been. Russians probably called him > Iosif Antipovich Khvat (I'm rendering the Cyrillic spelling of the name > phonetically), which means "Joseph Khvat, the son of Antip." It is standard > in Russian to name a person with first name, patronymic, and surname. So > even if Antypowicz later became the surname, it was probably due to > confusion because people were unfamiliar with Russian naming habits. I'm > guessing KHVAT was the surname, and Antipovich the patronymic. In case > you're wondering, KHVAT is pronounced with a guttural sound like the "ch" > in > German "Bach," followed by "vott," all in one syllable. It's hard for > English speakers, but not tough at all for Slavs. > > Poles would render the name as Jozef Antypowicz Chwat. But for Poles, a > name > ending in -owicz is a surname; they don't use patronymics as a middle name. > That could be a contributing factor in the establishment of Antypowicz as > the family's surname later on; Poles might have focused on Antypowicz and > the Chwat part kind of got lost in the shuffle. Or they might have called > him Jozef Chwat and left out the Antypowicz part completely. This confusion > may explain why sometimes you see Chwat as the surname, and sometimes > Antypowicz. > > That patronymic, Antypowicz or Antipovich, however you spell it, suggests > Belarusian or Russian ancestry, because Poles don't often use the first > name > Antyp or Antip. It's of Biblical origin, associated with Herod Antipas, but > there was also a Saint Antipas of Pergamum or Pergamon mentioned in the > Book > of Revelations. I doubt many Christians would name children after Herod > Antipas, but that saint is a different matter. The name never really caught > on in western Europe, or among Poles, who are mostly Catholic. But it did > catch on among followers of the Orthodox faith, which included Russians, > Ukrainians, and Belarusians. That's why I say the use of that name in the > patronymic suggests family origin in the lands east of Poland's modern > borders. Those are the areas where you'd be more likely to run into a > fellow > who was "son of Antip." > > CHWAT, as Poles spell it, or KHVAT, as we might spell the Cyrillic version > in Russian (which looks to us like XBAT), comes from a word used in both > Polish and Russian to mean "a plucky, daring fellow." It probably started > as > a nickname for an ancestor who impressed people with his energy and > courage. > Unfortunately, the word is used in both Polish and Russian, so its use as a > surname doesn't tell us much about the ethnicity of a family that went by > it. > > I don't know how much good this does you, but I hope it clarifies things a > little. > > Fred Hoffman > Author, _Polish Surnames: Origins & Meanings_ > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

In a message dated 2/16/2009 4:53:54 PM Pacific Standard Time, Carol writes: spelled his last name Bonczek. He arrives in 1899. On the back of his marriage license a notation by the priest indicates he volunteered the information that his real name was spelled Baczek ************************** Carol, both are correct depending on how you look at it. I am guessing that the name was spelled Baczek, but with a hook on the A... This letter, with the hook is pronounced very nasally llike an 'on'.or "om" So if name was in Russian, they would have spelled it phonetically in the Russian alphabet which may have come out BONCZEK, or when he pronounced it, the person writing it down spelled it that way... It doesn't have to be a the port names get changed... it could be when people go out of the Polish community. I have a Dabkowski with a hook on the A...If has been spelled Dumbkowski, Domkowski, Dumpkowski... all here in the US in one area... Chicago! Anettka **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1218822736x1201267884/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072%26hmpgID=62%26bcd=fe bemailfooterNO62)

In a message dated 2/16/2009 5:44:47 PM Pacific Standard Time, Jerry writes: The first two show that they were >>> "scratched" for some reason and did not arrive in New York ********************************* Jerry, If they were on the Ellis Island manifest, they did arrive in New York... They just didn't make it throught immigration, and were sent back. That is why they were scratched. The shipping line would not have put them on the manifest if they did not get on the ship. The ships were charged with returning the passengers that were rejected at the expense of the shipping line... Obviously that did not stop some from trying to come again. It could have been any number of things that kept them out... if a child was reject, at least one of the parents usually returned with them. Anettka **************Need a job? Find an employment agency near you. (http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=employment_agencies&ncid=emlcntusyelp00000003)

In my case the name on the ship manifest is not correct. The name at Ellis island is not correct. The name on the naturalization document is not correct. The name on they lived under was an American version of what they spoke. But luckily I found the records at the church where they were born and it is the name currently used in Poland. Lots of diggin to get to the truth sometimes. Some easier then others. Jim On Feb 16, 2009, at 10:08 PM, the cohens wrote: > I was also talking about birth and marriage records in England and > the US for my Vishnick family. The birth records have been horribly > elusive, and I think those names are official legal names, aren't > they? No, strictly speaking, it is not a name change of an > individual, it is giving a new family member a different surname > spelling than the rest of the family. > > We have Fishnick, Wisnick, Vishnick and Vishnek, as birth record > spellings I can say for sure, all one family, name was obviously > transliterated on the birth certificates. There may be more in this > one family, those were just the ones I could turn up quickly. > > I can hardly wait to find out how one that is eluding me turns out to > have been spelled, I am in touch with the daughter, so we know when > and where, but no one has been able to find the birth record which we > believe was definitely reported. > >> I think the question of whether name "changes" took place is really a >> matter of semantics. Of course there were errors made on the >> passenger manifests, census records, etc. The simple fact is that >> none of these resulted in a legal name change. > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and > the body of the message [email protected]

I found this happening in East Prussia - I am researching the name Plohmann - The first two children were christened as "Plohmann" The next 4 children were christened as "Plaumann" I think it depended on the priest and how he decided to spell the names, so There must have been a change of priests after the first two children, and Who knows what nationality the Greek Catholic priest might have been. He may not have known the language of the people in his church. Muriel -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of the cohens Sent: Monday, February 16, 2009 9:09 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [PBS] Name change "myth" I was also talking about birth and marriage records in England and the US for my Vishnick family. The birth records have been horribly elusive, and I think those names are official legal names, aren't they? No, strictly speaking, it is not a name change of an individual, it is giving a new family member a different surname spelling than the rest of the family.

Sometimes- if you go through (backward AND FORWARD) a number of pages- their name will appear again and you will sometimes see why and if they eventually did get through...... Happened to one of my Ancestors.... Melanie -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of [email protected] Sent: February-16-09 8:00 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [PBS] POLANDBORDERSURNAMES Name change "myth" In a message dated 2/16/2009 5:44:47 PM Pacific Standard Time, Jerry writes: The first two show that they were >>> "scratched" for some reason and did not arrive in New York ********************************* Jerry, If they were on the Ellis Island manifest, they did arrive in New York... They just didn't make it throught immigration, and were sent back. That is why they were scratched. The shipping line would not have put them on the manifest if they did not get on the ship. The ships were charged with returning the passengers that were rejected at the expense of the shipping line... Obviously that did not stop some from trying to come again. It could have been any number of things that kept them out... if a child was reject, at least one of the parents usually returned with them. Anettka **************Need a job? Find an employment agency near you. (http://yellowpages.aol.com/search?query=employment_agencies&ncid=emlcntusye lp00000003) ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Jeff! I'm sure you're right regarding the name idiosyncrasies which occured numerous times. I was told my grandfather spoke six languages, however, I did trace his original name to the area in which listed on the Ellis island manifest. I guess in each case situations could be different. I just hope he wasn't running from the law, if you know what I mean. Carol ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Monday, February 16, 2009 8:27 PM Subject: Re: [PBS] Name change "myth" >I think the question of whether name "changes" took place is really a > matter of semantics. Of course there were errors made on the > passenger manifests, census records, etc. The simple fact is that > none of these resulted in a legal name change. Many immigrants were > illiterate, or at a minimum were not English speakers. Therefore, few > of these would know the "correct" spelling of their name and probably > didn't settle on a spelling until years later. > > Jeff > > On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 4:07 PM, jakki szymanowski <[email protected]> > wrote: >> >> Also the US census mutilated some names. Kujalowicz was listed in a >> variety of spellings and my grandmother's first name Theodosia was not >> even recognizable on some! >> >> Jacqueline Szymanowski >> >> 3921 Random Lane >> >> Sacramento CA 95864 >> >> [email protected] >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> From: [email protected] >>> To: [email protected] >>> Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 11:54:59 -0600 >>> Subject: Re: [PBS] Name change "myth" >>> >>> I agree - any person coming from a country that did not have English as >>> their language, stood the risk of having their name changed to what it >>> sounded like, in English. All agents that handled passengers coming >>> from >>> overseas spoke only English, and could not be bothered to wait for a >>> translator. I found this to be the case in several names I am >>> researching, >>> and was told this as well by my grandparents. >>> >>> Muriel >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: [email protected] >>> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Gerald >>> Cierpilowski >>> Sent: Monday, February 16, 2009 9:36 AM >>> To: [email protected] >>> Subject: Re: [PBS] Name change "myth" >>> >>> Maybe the name changes were not on purpose at the immigration >>> purposes, but there were changes. For example: >>> >>> My grandmother and her two sons were shown on three separate Ellis >>> Island manifests out of Hamburg. The first two show that they were >>> "scratched" for some reason and did not arrive in New York. Each of >>> the three manifests had the surname spelled differently; and NONE of >>> the spellings was correct. Each of them were spelled the way they >>> SOUNDED in English. I have other examples in my family as well. Names >>> WERE changed. >>> >>> Jerry >>> Lock Haven, PA >>> Detroit MI >>> >>> >>> On Feb 16, 2009, at 10:21 AM, C. Bukoski wrote: >>> >>> > >>> > Hi Gloria, >>> > >>> > May I ask what your source is for the childrens' names, dates, and >>> > places of birth? Do you have actual baptismal certificates? >>> > >>> > Regarding the changing of family names at immigration, that is a >>> > myth. Immigration was pretty big business at the turn of the 20th >>> > century. Immigrants travelled with passports which would have their >>> > names spelled out (though not in English) and the translators were >>> > available at the ports of arrival (and probably departure). If >>> > anything, names would have changed (for any variety of reasons) >>> > after they settled in North America. >>> > >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >>> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

La Verne, I could not find that spelling of the name Kluskowski in "Polish Surnames: Origins and Meanings" Jim On Feb 16, 2009, at 7:50 PM, LaVerne Kossler wrote: > Can you tell me the backround of the name KLUSKOWSKI. I appreciate > your input. La Verne > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and > the body of the message [email protected]

Talk about name changes, misspellings, etc. My family probably takes the award. When my grandfather arrived on Ellis island be spelled his last name Bonczek. He arrives in 1899. On the back of his marriage license a notation by the priest indicates he volunteered the information that his real name was spelled Baczek. My grandmother, on the other hand, came over with Florentyna or Florence Chmielinski then one marriage licensen it was chmielewski remarried a Kossak. By the time I got to a great grandmother I found out she was married three times--just imagine my exasperation and exhaustion! At this point, all I can think of please give me a break relatives. Carol Tamara ----- Original Message ----- From: "jakki szymanowski" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Monday, February 16, 2009 5:07 PM Subject: Re: [PBS] Name change "myth" > > Also the US census mutilated some names. Kujalowicz was listed in a > variety of spellings and my grandmother's first name Theodosia was not > even recognizable on some! > > Jacqueline Szymanowski > > 3921 Random Lane > > Sacramento CA 95864 > > [email protected] > > > > > > >> From: [email protected] >> To: [email protected] >> Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 11:54:59 -0600 >> Subject: Re: [PBS] Name change "myth" >> >> I agree - any person coming from a country that did not have English as >> their language, stood the risk of having their name changed to what it >> sounded like, in English. All agents that handled passengers coming from >> overseas spoke only English, and could not be bothered to wait for a >> translator. I found this to be the case in several names I am >> researching, >> and was told this as well by my grandparents. >> >> Muriel >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [email protected] >> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Gerald >> Cierpilowski >> Sent: Monday, February 16, 2009 9:36 AM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: Re: [PBS] Name change "myth" >> >> Maybe the name changes were not on purpose at the immigration >> purposes, but there were changes. For example: >> >> My grandmother and her two sons were shown on three separate Ellis >> Island manifests out of Hamburg. The first two show that they were >> "scratched" for some reason and did not arrive in New York. Each of >> the three manifests had the surname spelled differently; and NONE of >> the spellings was correct. Each of them were spelled the way they >> SOUNDED in English. I have other examples in my family as well. Names >> WERE changed. >> >> Jerry >> Lock Haven, PA >> Detroit MI >> >> >> On Feb 16, 2009, at 10:21 AM, C. Bukoski wrote: >> >> > >> > Hi Gloria, >> > >> > May I ask what your source is for the childrens' names, dates, and >> > places of birth? Do you have actual baptismal certificates? >> > >> > Regarding the changing of family names at immigration, that is a >> > myth. Immigration was pretty big business at the turn of the 20th >> > century. Immigrants travelled with passports which would have their >> > names spelled out (though not in English) and the translators were >> > available at the ports of arrival (and probably departure). If >> > anything, names would have changed (for any variety of reasons) >> > after they settled in North America. >> > >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

I think the question of whether name "changes" took place is really a matter of semantics. Of course there were errors made on the passenger manifests, census records, etc. The simple fact is that none of these resulted in a legal name change. Many immigrants were illiterate, or at a minimum were not English speakers. Therefore, few of these would know the "correct" spelling of their name and probably didn't settle on a spelling until years later. Jeff On Mon, Feb 16, 2009 at 4:07 PM, jakki szymanowski <[email protected]> wrote: > > Also the US census mutilated some names. Kujalowicz was listed in a variety of spellings and my grandmother's first name Theodosia was not even recognizable on some! > > Jacqueline Szymanowski > > 3921 Random Lane > > Sacramento CA 95864 > > [email protected] > > > > > > >> From: [email protected] >> To: [email protected] >> Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 11:54:59 -0600 >> Subject: Re: [PBS] Name change "myth" >> >> I agree - any person coming from a country that did not have English as >> their language, stood the risk of having their name changed to what it >> sounded like, in English. All agents that handled passengers coming from >> overseas spoke only English, and could not be bothered to wait for a >> translator. I found this to be the case in several names I am researching, >> and was told this as well by my grandparents. >> >> Muriel >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [email protected] >> [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Gerald >> Cierpilowski >> Sent: Monday, February 16, 2009 9:36 AM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: Re: [PBS] Name change "myth" >> >> Maybe the name changes were not on purpose at the immigration >> purposes, but there were changes. For example: >> >> My grandmother and her two sons were shown on three separate Ellis >> Island manifests out of Hamburg. The first two show that they were >> "scratched" for some reason and did not arrive in New York. Each of >> the three manifests had the surname spelled differently; and NONE of >> the spellings was correct. Each of them were spelled the way they >> SOUNDED in English. I have other examples in my family as well. Names >> WERE changed. >> >> Jerry >> Lock Haven, PA >> Detroit MI >> >> >> On Feb 16, 2009, at 10:21 AM, C. Bukoski wrote: >> >> > >> > Hi Gloria, >> > >> > May I ask what your source is for the childrens' names, dates, and >> > places of birth? Do you have actual baptismal certificates? >> > >> > Regarding the changing of family names at immigration, that is a >> > myth. Immigration was pretty big business at the turn of the 20th >> > century. Immigrants travelled with passports which would have their >> > names spelled out (though not in English) and the translators were >> > available at the ports of arrival (and probably departure). If >> > anything, names would have changed (for any variety of reasons) >> > after they settled in North America. >> > >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

I was also talking about birth and marriage records in England and the US for my Vishnick family. The birth records have been horribly elusive, and I think those names are official legal names, aren't they? No, strictly speaking, it is not a name change of an individual, it is giving a new family member a different surname spelling than the rest of the family. We have Fishnick, Wisnick, Vishnick and Vishnek, as birth record spellings I can say for sure, all one family, name was obviously transliterated on the birth certificates. There may be more in this one family, those were just the ones I could turn up quickly. I can hardly wait to find out how one that is eluding me turns out to have been spelled, I am in touch with the daughter, so we know when and where, but no one has been able to find the birth record which we believe was definitely reported. > I think the question of whether name "changes" took place is really a > matter of semantics. Of course there were errors made on the > passenger manifests, census records, etc. The simple fact is that > none of these resulted in a legal name change.

I have compiled some facts about my family name from about 1850 and on. Name is; Nedzinskas, from Lithuanian/Russia Niedzinski, spelling in Polish from church records (There is also a Cyrillic spelling that I will not even try) Nedsinsky, spelling by German transportation company Nedzinski, first spelling in US Nedinskas, spelling version used by local merchants in Western PA Nedinsky, Used on Naturalization papers And finally during the 1910 to 1940 some of my relatives got a Lithuania nationalism and changed their name to Nedzinskas Rich Nedinsky San Jose, CA -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of jakki szymanowski Sent: Monday, February 16, 2009 2:07 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [PBS] Name change "myth" Also the US census mutilated some names. Kujalowicz was listed in a variety of spellings and my grandmother's first name Theodosia was not even recognizable on some! Jacqueline Szymanowski 3921 Random Lane Sacramento CA 95864 [email protected] > From: [email protected] > To: [email protected] > Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 11:54:59 -0600 > Subject: Re: [PBS] Name change "myth" > > I agree - any person coming from a country that did not have English > as their language, stood the risk of having their name changed to what > it sounded like, in English. All agents that handled passengers > coming from overseas spoke only English, and could not be bothered to > wait for a translator. I found this to be the case in several names I > am researching, and was told this as well by my grandparents. > > Muriel > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Gerald > Cierpilowski > Sent: Monday, February 16, 2009 9:36 AM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [PBS] Name change "myth" > > Maybe the name changes were not on purpose at the immigration > purposes, but there were changes. For example: > > My grandmother and her two sons were shown on three separate Ellis > Island manifests out of Hamburg. The first two show that they were > "scratched" for some reason and did not arrive in New York. Each of > the three manifests had the surname spelled differently; and NONE of > the spellings was correct. Each of them were spelled the way they > SOUNDED in English. I have other examples in my family as well. Names > WERE changed. > > Jerry > Lock Haven, PA > Detroit MI > > > On Feb 16, 2009, at 10:21 AM, C. Bukoski wrote: > > > > > Hi Gloria, > > > > May I ask what your source is for the childrens' names, dates, and > > places of birth? Do you have actual baptismal certificates? > > > > Regarding the changing of family names at immigration, that is a > > myth. Immigration was pretty big business at the turn of the 20th > > century. Immigrants travelled with passports which would have their > > names spelled out (though not in English) and the translators were > > available at the ports of arrival (and probably departure). If > > anything, names would have changed (for any variety of reasons) > > after they settled in North America. > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Fred, You are one of the many reasons this website is such a blessing for the many of us that do not have the knowledge you have and are so willing to share. I thank you so much for this explanation even though I am not Gloria, it has helped explain many of the issues I have found and struggle with as well. Barbara Sieracki Smith ----- Original Message ----- From: Fred Hoffman<mailto:[email protected]> To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> Sent: Monday, February 16, 2009 9:53 AM Subject: Re: [PBS] Can someone help me? Hi, Gloria Antypowich posted a very interesting note. The text is too long to repeat all of it here, but obviously anyone can look it up in the list's archives. Gloria, from the info given in that note, it's hard to determine for sure the ethnicity of your husband's grandfather. He could have been of Russian descent, or Polish, or Belarusian; or his ancestors might have been among the many Poles who resettled in Belarus. These peoples have mixed and mingled over the ages, as have their languages and names, and it can be pretty tough to untangle it all. It doesn't help that at one time, Poland (or more properly, the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth) ruled much of what is now Belarus and western Ukraine, so that people living there were often classified as "Polish," even if that wasn't entirely accurate. Then in the late 18th century, the Russian Empire swallowed up those lands, ruling what is now central and eastern Poland, Lithuania, Belarus, and northwestern Ukraine. So from then until after World War I, people from those areas were officially classified as citizens of Russia, and were often called "Russians" for short. In other words, there is often a great deal of ambiguity in the terminology. About the only hope of straightening it all out is to trace the family history -- which is, of course, what you're trying to do. It's a kind of Catch-22 situation. You can't find the family history till you straighten all this stuff out, and you can't straighten this stuff out till you trace the family history. Still, a lot of people manage to break through, just by plugging away at it. I will say this. I think the name of your husband's grandfather appeared in Russian form because he was a citizen of the Russian Empire, and Russian was the official language for all documents. In other words, he wasn't necessarily Russian; but he could have been. Russians probably called him Iosif Antipovich Khvat (I'm rendering the Cyrillic spelling of the name phonetically), which means "Joseph Khvat, the son of Antip." It is standard in Russian to name a person with first name, patronymic, and surname. So even if Antypowicz later became the surname, it was probably due to confusion because people were unfamiliar with Russian naming habits. I'm guessing KHVAT was the surname, and Antipovich the patronymic. In case you're wondering, KHVAT is pronounced with a guttural sound like the "ch" in German "Bach," followed by "vott," all in one syllable. It's hard for English speakers, but not tough at all for Slavs. Poles would render the name as Jozef Antypowicz Chwat. But for Poles, a name ending in -owicz is a surname; they don't use patronymics as a middle name. That could be a contributing factor in the establishment of Antypowicz as the family's surname later on; Poles might have focused on Antypowicz and the Chwat part kind of got lost in the shuffle. Or they might have called him Jozef Chwat and left out the Antypowicz part completely. This confusion may explain why sometimes you see Chwat as the surname, and sometimes Antypowicz. That patronymic, Antypowicz or Antipovich, however you spell it, suggests Belarusian or Russian ancestry, because Poles don't often use the first name Antyp or Antip. It's of Biblical origin, associated with Herod Antipas, but there was also a Saint Antipas of Pergamum or Pergamon mentioned in the Book of Revelations. I doubt many Christians would name children after Herod Antipas, but that saint is a different matter. The name never really caught on in western Europe, or among Poles, who are mostly Catholic. But it did catch on among followers of the Orthodox faith, which included Russians, Ukrainians, and Belarusians. That's why I say the use of that name in the patronymic suggests family origin in the lands east of Poland's modern borders. Those are the areas where you'd be more likely to run into a fellow who was "son of Antip." CHWAT, as Poles spell it, or KHVAT, as we might spell the Cyrillic version in Russian (which looks to us like XBAT), comes from a word used in both Polish and Russian to mean "a plucky, daring fellow." It probably started as a nickname for an ancestor who impressed people with his energy and courage. Unfortunately, the word is used in both Polish and Russian, so its use as a surname doesn't tell us much about the ethnicity of a family that went by it. I don't know how much good this does you, but I hope it clarifies things a little. Fred Hoffman Author, _Polish Surnames: Origins & Meanings_ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Can you tell me the backround of the name KLUSKOWSKI. I appreciate your input. La Verne

Hi All, Now you know why most all offices hand people clipboards filled with forms when you enter their office(s). Screwed up names isn't the half of the problem. But, in years past secretaries used to fill in office forms, with what they heard and what it sounded like. The same name spelling changes took place with my Grandfather. Now we have doctors that will take off the wrong leg - if you haven't marked the leg you want to keep with an "Marks-a-lot" arrow pointing to the one that should be removed. Welcome to planet earth! Jake -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Barbara Smith Sent: Monday, February 16, 2009 3:57 PM To: Fred Hoffman; [email protected] Subject: Re: [PBS] Can someone help me? Importance: High Fred, You are one of the many reasons this website is such a blessing for the many of us that do not have the knowledge you have and are so willing to share. I thank you so much for this explanation even though I am not Gloria, it has helped explain many of the issues I have found and struggle with as well. Barbara Sieracki Smith ----- Original Message ----- From: Fred Hoffman<mailto:[email protected]> To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected] om> Sent: Monday, February 16, 2009 9:53 AM Subject: Re: [PBS] Can someone help me? Hi, Gloria Antypowich posted a very interesting note. The text is too long to repeat all of it here, but obviously anyone can look it up in the list's archives. Gloria, from the info given in that note, it's hard to determine for sure the ethnicity of your husband's grandfather. He could have been of Russian descent, or Polish, or Belarusian; or his ancestors might have been among the many Poles who resettled in Belarus. These peoples have mixed and mingled over the ages, as have their languages and names, and it can be pretty tough to untangle it all. It doesn't help that at one time, Poland (or more properly, the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth) ruled much of what is now Belarus and western Ukraine, so that people living there were often classified as "Polish," even if that wasn't entirely accurate. Then in the late 18th century, the Russian Empire swallowed up those lands, ruling what is now central and eastern Poland, Lithuania, Belarus, and northwestern Ukraine. So from then until after World War I, people from those areas were officially classified as citizens of Russia, and were often called "Russians" for short. In other words, there is often a great deal of ambiguity in the terminology. About the only hope of straightening it all out is to trace the family history -- which is, of course, what you're trying to do. It's a kind of Catch-22 situation. You can't find the family history till you straighten all this stuff out, and you can't straighten this stuff out till you trace the family history. Still, a lot of people manage to break through, just by plugging away at it. I will say this. I think the name of your husband's grandfather appeared in Russian form because he was a citizen of the Russian Empire, and Russian was the official language for all documents. In other words, he wasn't necessarily Russian; but he could have been. Russians probably called him Iosif Antipovich Khvat (I'm rendering the Cyrillic spelling of the name phonetically), which means "Joseph Khvat, the son of Antip." It is standard in Russian to name a person with first name, patronymic, and surname. So even if Antypowicz later became the surname, it was probably due to confusion because people were unfamiliar with Russian naming habits. I'm guessing KHVAT was the surname, and Antipovich the patronymic. In case you're wondering, KHVAT is pronounced with a guttural sound like the "ch" in German "Bach," followed by "vott," all in one syllable. It's hard for English speakers, but not tough at all for Slavs. Poles would render the name as Jozef Antypowicz Chwat. But for Poles, a name ending in -owicz is a surname; they don't use patronymics as a middle name. That could be a contributing factor in the establishment of Antypowicz as the family's surname later on; Poles might have focused on Antypowicz and the Chwat part kind of got lost in the shuffle. Or they might have called him Jozef Chwat and left out the Antypowicz part completely. This confusion may explain why sometimes you see Chwat as the surname, and sometimes Antypowicz. That patronymic, Antypowicz or Antipovich, however you spell it, suggests Belarusian or Russian ancestry, because Poles don't often use the first name Antyp or Antip. It's of Biblical origin, associated with Herod Antipas, but there was also a Saint Antipas of Pergamum or Pergamon mentioned in the Book of Revelations. I doubt many Christians would name children after Herod Antipas, but that saint is a different matter. The name never really caught on in western Europe, or among Poles, who are mostly Catholic. But it did catch on among followers of the Orthodox faith, which included Russians, Ukrainians, and Belarusians. That's why I say the use of that name in the patronymic suggests family origin in the lands east of Poland's modern borders. Those are the areas where you'd be more likely to run into a fellow who was "son of Antip." CHWAT, as Poles spell it, or KHVAT, as we might spell the Cyrillic version in Russian (which looks to us like XBAT), comes from a word used in both Polish and Russian to mean "a plucky, daring fellow." It probably started as a nickname for an ancestor who impressed people with his energy and courage. Unfortunately, the word is used in both Polish and Russian, so its use as a surname doesn't tell us much about the ethnicity of a family that went by it. I don't know how much good this does you, but I hope it clarifies things a little. Fred Hoffman Author, _Polish Surnames: Origins & Meanings_ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected]<mailto:POLANDBORDERSURNAMES-re [email protected]> with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message