Roman, Thank you very much for the compliment and the corrections. I got out of practice during a long spell with no new records and it looks like I may need to get new glasses too! I should have gotten at least a few more of these. I appreciate that you got me back on track. I got 'na dniu' right farther down in the record but the way it was written in that one spot was puzzling. It was fun to come across so many new words (for me) in this record. I didn't know what to do with (Ulicy) "Piwnej" so I had done a Google map search for St. John's Cathedral in Warsaw and looked at street names in the neighborhood. That is where I found Piwna Street. I notice that many of the streets in that area end in the letter a. Would it be different in the narrative than it is on a map? Also, I have one other question I forgot to ask. Do you know what the writing above the priest's name says in the left hand margin? It looks to me like either powerskiego or pdwerskiego but I can't figure out why it is there. I have posted just that at this link. The arrow above it leads to the entire document. https://picasaweb.google.com/mgardenerm/KonarskiTrzebinskaMarriageRecord?authkey=Gv1sRgCNXo_dSv2N2k7gE#5574362385170679250 Thanks again for your help, Michele On 2/16/2011 1:21 AM, Roman wrote: > Michele, > > Overall, you have done a fine job. Look below for line-by-line comments. > > Roman > > On 2/15/2011 4:34 PM, Michele wrote: >> I would really appreciate some help with this marriage record of Ignacy >> Konarski and Julianna Trzybińska. The marriage took place in Warsaw and >> the records are written differently enough to give me some new puzzlers. >> Here are my questions: >> >> 1. What is the word that looks like nacmen? (2nd word, 7th line on image). >> >> 2. What does wyż mean in the phrase "pod liczba wyż rzeczona"? >> >> 3. On the Warsaw records, I keep finding something that looks like "po >> prob" or "po prosob" "p.o. prosob" next to the pastor's name. What is >> that and how should it be spelled? >> >> Below is my transcription and translation and I posted the image at the >> link below. >> >> Thanks for any help, >> >> Michele >> >> https://picasaweb.google.com/mgardenerm/KonarskiTrzebinskaMarriageRecord?authkey=Gv1sRgCNXo_dSv2N2k7gE#5574023078313077314 >> >> Marriage record of Ignacy Konarski and Julianna Trzebińska 1844 >> >> Działo się w Warszawie, dnia dziewiętnastego miesiąca Listopada, tysiąc >> ośmset czterdziestego czwartego Roku, o godzinie piątej z południa. >> Wiadomo czyniomy, że w obecności swiadków, Ignacego Szklanika, byłego > świadków (misspelt in doc) > >> Nauczyada, i Stanisława Płodowskiego, Czeladnika Krawieckiego, obadwoch > Nauczyciela > >> petnoletnich, w Warszawie zamieszkałych, nacmen ? dzisiejszym zawarte > pełnoletnich, na dniu dzisiejszym (on this day) > >> zostało religiinie i przez nizej podpisanego pobłogostewione Małżeństwo > religijnie, niżej, pobłogosławione > >> miedzy Ignacym Konarskim młodzienem, czeladnikiem Krawieckim, przy Ulicy > między, młodzianem > >> Piwnej, pod liczbą dziewięcdziesiąt szóstą, w Parafii Swiątego Jana > Świętego > >> zamieszkałym, urodzonym we Wsi Pankach, Gubernii Kaliskiej, z Pawła >> Konarskiego dworskiego, i Petronelli z Niepiekłów, małżonków, tamże >> zamieszkałych, mającym lat trzydzieści dwa a Julianną Trzybińską, Panną, > ... dwa, a ... > >> corką Wincentego Trzybińskiego, i Katarzyny małżonków, zrodzona w > zrodzoną (urodzoną) > >> Mieście Mszczonowie, Gubernii Mazowieckiej, mającą lat dwudzieścia dwa, > dwadzieścia > >> przy Rodzicach swoich, pod liczba wyż rzeczona w Parafii Swiątego Jana, > liczbą wyż rzeczoną (at the address given above), Świętego > >> stale zamieszkała. Małżeństwo to, poprzedzily trzy zapowiedzie, w > poprzedziły, zapowiedzia > >> dniach,trzecim, dziesiątym i siedmnastym Listopada, Roku bieżącego, w >> Kościele Parafialnym Warszawskim Swiętego Jana. Tamowanie małżoństwa nie > małżeństwa > >> zasło Małzonkowie Nowi Oświadczaja, iż nie zawarti umowy przedslubnej. > ... zaszło. Mał ... oświadczają ... nie zawarli ... przedślubnej. > >> Niniejszy Akt stawającym i Świadkom przeczytany, podpiscmym został przez > podpisanym > >> Nas, wraz z Zaślubionym i Swiadkomi, Zaślubiona zaś pisać nieumie. > Świadkami > >> Ks. Wincenty Miszkich po prob ? parafii S Jana > po prob (most likely it is "po proboszcza" = for the pastor) > >> Igay (sic) Konarski >> Ignacy Szklanik >> Stanisław Słodowski >> >> It happened in Warsaw, the 19th day of November, 1844, at 5:00 in the >> afternoon. We make it known that in the presence of witnesses, Ignacy >> Szklanik, former teacher, and Stanisław Płodowski, apprentice tailor, >> both of age, residing in Warsaw, _________ . A religious marriage was >> contracted and blessed by the undersigned today between Ignacy Konarski, >> young apprentice tailor residing at number 96 Piwna Street in St. John’s > the intent here is młodzian = youth (not previously married) > most likely Piwno Street > >> Parish, born in the village of Panki, province of Kalisz, to Pawel >> Konarski of the court, and Petronela née Niepiekło, married couple, >> living at the same place, 32 years of age, and Julianna Trzybińska, >> unmarried woman, daughter of Wincenty and Katarzyna Trzybiński, a >> married couple, born in the town of Mszczonow, province of Mazowiecki, >> 22 years of age, living constantly with her parents, at the aforesaid >> number _______ and in St. John’s Parish. This marriage was preceded by >> three readings of the banns, on the 3rd, 10th, and 17th of November of >> the current year, in St. John’s Parish in Warsaw. No impediments to the >> marriage arose. There is no prenuptial agreement. This document was read >> to the declarant and witnesses and was signed by Us, whereas the >> newlyweds and witnesses together cannot write. >> >> Rev. Wincenty Miszkich Pastor ? St. John's Parish >> Igay (sic) (Ignacy) Konarski >> Ignacy Szklanik >> Stanisław Słodowski >> >> > ********************************* > Need to contact the list manager? Write to Marie at [email protected] > ---------------------------------- > Discussion of Polish food, culture, and customs are welcome on the list as long as the discussion stays pertinent to the topic of this list: researching our Polish roots. > ---------------------------------- > Browse the list's archives here: > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=poland-roots > Search the list's archives here: > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/search?aop=1 > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Michele, See below. Roman On 2/16/2011 2:04 PM, Michele wrote: > Roman, > > Thank you very much for the compliment and the corrections. I got out > of practice during a long spell with no new records and it looks like I > may need to get new glasses too! I should have gotten at least a few > more of these. I appreciate that you got me back on track. I got 'na > dniu' right farther down in the record but the way it was written in > that one spot was puzzling. It was fun to come across so many new words > (for me) in this record. I didn't know what to do with (Ulicy) "Piwnej" > so I had done a Google map search for St. John's Cathedral in Warsaw and > looked at street names in the neighborhood. That is where I found Piwna > Street. I notice that many of the streets in that area end in the > letter a. Would it be different in the narrative than it is on a map? There are two issues here. First, the typical style for naming streets in Poland is to assign ownership of the street to some person, event, or other name. Hence we see in Warsaw street names such as the following: Aleja 3 Maja = Avenue of May 3rd (Any significance here?) Plac Bankowy = Bank's Place (though Plac has different translations) Kanadyjska = Canadian (in the Diplomatic section Saska Kępa) Dowcip = Joke (There are exceptions!) Second, since streets are normally specified as belonging to someone or something, the owner must be rendered in the Genitive Case. Polish, after all, is a heavily declined language and noun usage must follow declension requirements. The ending -a is a Genitive Case ending. In your case we have the following: Piwny = beer; Nominative Case - the owner of the street. Ulica Piwna = Beer's Street; Genitive Case. przy Ulicy Piwnej = Locative Case - required with preposition "przy". > Also, I have one other question I forgot to ask. Do you know what the > writing above the priest's name says in the left hand margin? It looks > to me like either powerskiego or pdwerskiego but I can't figure out why > it is there. The answer is "Yes". Let me give you a hint: that's not a "p". The marginal entry is "^ dworskiego". Find the corresponding caret. I have posted just that at this link. The arrow above it > leads to the entire document. > > https://picasaweb.google.com/mgardenerm/KonarskiTrzebinskaMarriageRecord?authkey=Gv1sRgCNXo_dSv2N2k7gE#5574362385170679250 > > Thanks again for your help, > > Michele

Roman, I'm glad you knew why I was asking the question about the street name. I've come from initially thinking words would be as they appear to assuming that all words can and will be changed in some way by declension, etc. dependent on the situation. More comments below... On 2/16/2011 1:13 PM, Roman wrote: > Michele, > > See below. > > Roman > > On 2/16/2011 2:04 PM, Michele wrote: >> Roman, >> >> Thank you very much for the compliment and the corrections. I got out >> of practice during a long spell with no new records and it looks like I >> may need to get new glasses too! I should have gotten at least a few >> more of these. I appreciate that you got me back on track. I got 'na >> dniu' right farther down in the record but the way it was written in >> that one spot was puzzling. It was fun to come across so many new words >> (for me) in this record. I didn't know what to do with (Ulicy) "Piwnej" >> so I had done a Google map search for St. John's Cathedral in Warsaw and >> looked at street names in the neighborhood. That is where I found Piwna >> Street. I notice that many of the streets in that area end in the >> letter a. Would it be different in the narrative than it is on a map? > There are two issues here. > > First, the typical style for naming streets in Poland is to assign > ownership of the street to some person, event, or other name. Hence we > see in Warsaw street names such as the following: > > Aleja 3 Maja = Avenue of May 3rd (Any significance here?) > Plac Bankowy = Bank's Place (though Plac has different translations) > Kanadyjska = Canadian (in the Diplomatic section Saska Kępa) > Dowcip = Joke (There are exceptions!) > > Second, since streets are normally specified as belonging to someone or > something, the owner must be rendered in the Genitive Case. Polish, > after all, is a heavily declined language and noun usage must follow > declension requirements. The ending -a is a Genitive Case ending. > > In your case we have the following: > > Piwny = beer; Nominative Case - the owner of the street. > Ulica Piwna = Beer's Street; Genitive Case. > przy Ulicy Piwnej = Locative Case - required with preposition "przy". I have come across another example like the ones you wrote above. In a different record (the next one I'd like to post), the same family lived on "Rynku Starego Miasto" in the record. On the map, it is Rynek Starego Miasto and I am reading that to mean Old Town Market Street. So would it be Piwno Street in the translation of this record? And what case would that be? > >> Also, I have one other question I forgot to ask. Do you know what the >> writing above the priest's name says in the left hand margin? It looks >> to me like either powerskiego or pdwerskiego but I can't figure out why >> it is there. > The answer is "Yes". Let me give you a hint: that's not a "p". The > marginal entry is "^ dworskiego". Find the corresponding caret. Ah, OK. I see it now. Thanks! Michele > I have posted just that at this link. The arrow above it >> leads to the entire document. >> >> https://picasaweb.google.com/mgardenerm/KonarskiTrzebinskaMarriageRecord?authkey=Gv1sRgCNXo_dSv2N2k7gE#5574362385170679250 >> >> Thanks again for your help, >> >> Michele > ********************************* > Need to contact the list manager? Write to Marie at [email protected] > ---------------------------------- > Discussion of Polish food, culture, and customs are welcome on the list as long as the discussion stays pertinent to the topic of this list: researching our Polish roots. > ---------------------------------- > Browse the list's archives here: > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=poland-roots > Search the list's archives here: > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/search?aop=1 > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

On 2/16/2011 3:54 PM, Michele wrote: > Roman, > >> There are two issues here. >> >> First, the typical style for naming streets in Poland is to assign >> ownership of the street to some person, event, or other name. Hence we >> see in Warsaw street names such as the following: >> >> Aleja 3 Maja = Avenue of May 3rd (Any significance here?) >> Plac Bankowy = Bank's Place (though Plac has different translations) >> Kanadyjska = Canadian (in the Diplomatic section Saska Kępa) >> Dowcip = Joke (There are exceptions!) >> >> Second, since streets are normally specified as belonging to someone or >> something, the owner must be rendered in the Genitive Case. Polish, >> after all, is a heavily declined language and noun usage must follow >> declension requirements. The ending -a is a Genitive Case ending. >> >> In your case we have the following: >> >> Piwny = beer; Nominative Case - the owner of the street. >> Ulica Piwna = Beer's Street; Genitive Case. >> przy Ulicy Piwnej = Locative Case - required with preposition "przy". > I have come across another example like the ones you wrote above. In a > different record (the next one I'd like to post), the same family lived > on "Rynku Starego Miasto" in the record. On the map, it is Rynek > Starego Miasto and I am reading that to mean Old Town Market Street. > Rynek Starego Miasta = Old Town (market) Square The usage you site above is clearly in a clause beginning with a preposition. Hence, the change in Case. "Starego Miasta" is the Genitive Case of "Stare Miasto" on translates to "of the Old Town" or "Old Town's". In this case, it is not likely a street - but the Central Square. Rynek also means "market" and the connection is that even today you will find lots of bazaars and market activity in the Old Square. > So would it be Piwno Street in the translation of this record? And what > case would that be? You were already given the answer. See the Nominative Case above. Incidentally, the typical word for beer is "piwo". "Piwny" does, however, reside in old dictionaries. "Piwny" is also a (very rare) surname. So this street could have been named for a person. >>> Thanks again for your help, >>> >>> Michele

The first character there is actually a flag, and the word is "dworskiego". It was signed by the priest to show it's legit. The corresponding flag is in the text after "corką Wincentego Trzybińskiego". So the original record as first written omitted Vince's occupation, and it was inserted later, probably when it was read aloud to those present. I take dworski to mean someone who works at the manorhouse, maybe a servant or clerk. Joe > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto:poland-roots- > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Michele > Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 2:05 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [POLAND] Need help with Polish translation > > Roman, > > Thank you very much for the compliment and the corrections. I got out > of practice during a long spell with no new records and it looks like I > may need to get new glasses too! I should have gotten at least a few > more of these. I appreciate that you got me back on track. I got 'na > dniu' right farther down in the record but the way it was written in > that one spot was puzzling. It was fun to come across so many new > words > (for me) in this record. I didn't know what to do with (Ulicy) > "Piwnej" > so I had done a Google map search for St. John's Cathedral in Warsaw > and > looked at street names in the neighborhood. That is where I found > Piwna > Street. I notice that many of the streets in that area end in the > letter a. Would it be different in the narrative than it is on a map? > Also, I have one other question I forgot to ask. Do you know what the > writing above the priest's name says in the left hand margin? It looks > to me like either powerskiego or pdwerskiego but I can't figure out why > it is there. I have posted just that at this link. The arrow above it > leads to the entire document. > > https://picasaweb.google.com/mgardenerm/KonarskiTrzebinskaMarriageRecor > d?authkey=Gv1sRgCNXo_dSv2N2k7gE#5574362385170679250 > > Thanks again for your help, > > Michele > > > > On 2/16/2011 1:21 AM, Roman wrote: > > Michele, > > > > Overall, you have done a fine job. Look below for line-by-line > comments. > > > > Roman > > > > On 2/15/2011 4:34 PM, Michele wrote: > >> I would really appreciate some help with this marriage record of > Ignacy > >> Konarski and Julianna Trzybińska. The marriage took place in Warsaw > and > >> the records are written differently enough to give me some new > puzzlers. > >> Here are my questions: > >> > >> 1. What is the word that looks like nacmen? (2nd word, 7th line on > image). > >> > >> 2. What does wyż mean in the phrase "pod liczba wyż rzeczona"? > >> > >> 3. On the Warsaw records, I keep finding something that looks like > "po > >> prob" or "po prosob" "p.o. prosob" next to the pastor's name. What > is > >> that and how should it be spelled? > >> > >> Below is my transcription and translation and I posted the image at > the > >> link below. > >> > >> Thanks for any help, > >> > >> Michele > >> > >> > https://picasaweb.google.com/mgardenerm/KonarskiTrzebinskaMarriageRecor > d?authkey=Gv1sRgCNXo_dSv2N2k7gE#5574023078313077314 > >> > >> Marriage record of Ignacy Konarski and Julianna Trzebińska 1844 > >> > >> Działo się w Warszawie, dnia dziewiętnastego miesiąca Listopada, > tysiąc > >> ośmset czterdziestego czwartego Roku, o godzinie piątej z południa. > >> Wiadomo czyniomy, że w obecności swiadków, Ignacego Szklanika, > byłego > > świadków (misspelt in doc) > > > >> Nauczyada, i Stanisława Płodowskiego, Czeladnika Krawieckiego, > obadwoch > > Nauczyciela > > > >> petnoletnich, w Warszawie zamieszkałych, nacmen ? dzisiejszym > zawarte > > pełnoletnich, na dniu dzisiejszym (on this day) > > > >> zostało religiinie i przez nizej podpisanego pobłogostewione > Małżeństwo > > religijnie, niżej, pobłogosławione > > > >> miedzy Ignacym Konarskim młodzienem, czeladnikiem Krawieckim, przy > Ulicy > > między, młodzianem > > > >> Piwnej, pod liczbą dziewięcdziesiąt szóstą, w Parafii Swiątego Jana > > Świętego > > > >> zamieszkałym, urodzonym we Wsi Pankach, Gubernii Kaliskiej, z Pawła > >> Konarskiego dworskiego, i Petronelli z Niepiekłów, małżonków, tamże > >> zamieszkałych, mającym lat trzydzieści dwa a Julianną Trzybińską, > Panną, > > ... dwa, a ... > > > >> corką Wincentego Trzybińskiego, i Katarzyny małżonków, zrodzona w > > zrodzoną (urodzoną) > > > >> Mieście Mszczonowie, Gubernii Mazowieckiej, mającą lat dwudzieścia > dwa, > > dwadzieścia > > > >> przy Rodzicach swoich, pod liczba wyż rzeczona w Parafii Swiątego > Jana, > > liczbą wyż rzeczoną (at the address given above), Świętego > > > >> stale zamieszkała. Małżeństwo to, poprzedzily trzy zapowiedzie, w > > poprzedziły, zapowiedzia > > > >> dniach,trzecim, dziesiątym i siedmnastym Listopada, Roku bieżącego, > w > >> Kościele Parafialnym Warszawskim Swiętego Jana. Tamowanie małżoństwa > nie > > małżeństwa > > > >> zasło Małzonkowie Nowi Oświadczaja, iż nie zawarti umowy > przedslubnej. > > ... zaszło. Mał ... oświadczają ... nie zawarli ... przedślubnej. > > > >> Niniejszy Akt stawającym i Świadkom przeczytany, podpiscmym został > przez > > podpisanym > > > >> Nas, wraz z Zaślubionym i Swiadkomi, Zaślubiona zaś pisać nieumie. > > Świadkami > > > >> Ks. Wincenty Miszkich po prob ? parafii S Jana > > po prob (most likely it is "po proboszcza" = for the pastor) > > > >> Igay (sic) Konarski > >> Ignacy Szklanik > >> Stanisław Słodowski > >> > >> It happened in Warsaw, the 19th day of November, 1844, at 5:00 in > the > >> afternoon. We make it known that in the presence of witnesses, > Ignacy > >> Szklanik, former teacher, and Stanisław Płodowski, apprentice > tailor, > >> both of age, residing in Warsaw, _________ . A religious marriage > was > >> contracted and blessed by the undersigned today between Ignacy > Konarski, > >> young apprentice tailor residing at number 96 Piwna Street in St. > John’s > > the intent here is młodzian = youth (not previously married) > > most likely Piwno Street > > > >> Parish, born in the village of Panki, province of Kalisz, to Pawel > >> Konarski of the court, and Petronela née Niepiekło, married couple, > >> living at the same place, 32 years of age, and Julianna Trzybińska, > >> unmarried woman, daughter of Wincenty and Katarzyna Trzybiński, a > >> married couple, born in the town of Mszczonow, province of > Mazowiecki, > >> 22 years of age, living constantly with her parents, at the > aforesaid > >> number _______ and in St. John’s Parish. This marriage was preceded > by > >> three readings of the banns, on the 3rd, 10th, and 17th of November > of > >> the current year, in St. John’s Parish in Warsaw. No impediments to > the > >> marriage arose. There is no prenuptial agreement. This document was > read > >> to the declarant and witnesses and was signed by Us, whereas the > >> newlyweds and witnesses together cannot write. > >> > >> Rev. Wincenty Miszkich Pastor ? St. John's Parish > >> Igay (sic) (Ignacy) Konarski > >> Ignacy Szklanik > >> Stanisław Słodowski > >> > >> > > ********************************* > > Need to contact the list manager? Write to Marie at Poland-Roots- > [email protected] > > ---------------------------------- > > Discussion of Polish food, culture, and customs are welcome on the > list as long as the discussion stays pertinent to the topic of this > list: researching our Polish roots. > > ---------------------------------- > > Browse the list's archives here: > > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=poland-roots > > Search the list's archives here: > > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/search?aop=1 > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to POLAND-ROOTS- > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in > the subject and the body of the message > ********************************* > Need to contact the list manager? Write to Marie at Poland-Roots- > [email protected] > ---------------------------------- > Discussion of Polish food, culture, and customs are welcome on the list > as long as the discussion stays pertinent to the topic of this list: > researching our Polish roots. > ---------------------------------- > Browse the list's archives here: > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=poland-roots > Search the list's archives here: > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/search?aop=1 > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to POLAND-ROOTS- > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in > the subject and the body of the message