Paul, This is great stuff! Where did you find all of this information? I know it wasn't in English. . . Debbie whose own family were farmers. Paul Rakow wrote: > Hello Debbie, Vera, > > One of my ancestors moved from Ozorkow (a few miles from Zgierz) > to Knyszyn near Bialystok at about the same time, 1831. > > Along with about 20 other clothmakers from the town, he first > tried to get permission to move to the Bialystok area in the 1820s. > I was lucky enough to find some documents about his first attempt > in the Warsaw archives. Here's what he said: > > ====== > > 7 August, 1824, Ozorkow > > Gottlieb Huebner, cloth manufacturer, presented himself in person, > and testified: > > My name is Gottlieb Huebner, my profession is cloth-maker. I was born > in the town Zaniemysl in the province Poznan. The last place I lived > in was the town Pyzdry; I came to live in Ozorkow three years ago. I > have my own house, on a site with 2 morgens of land. I also own the > machines needed to pursue my trade, and some household equipment. > > 1) So you intend to emigrate to Russia? Why? > > Answer to 1) > > I intend to move to Russia, if I am permitted. The reason is simply > that the market in our goods is poor, because of the increasing number > of large factories, such as the Harrer factory in Sieradz. Trade has > declined noticeably, and I believe it is bound to collapse. > > I do not have any other reasons, and I am not suffering from any > injustices. The only thing I need to mention in conclusion is that > the Squire of the Ozorkow estate has already sold the grist and > fulling mills to be used as manufacturies, and is depriving us of > opportunities to use the fulling mill. This lack will soon be, in > fact already is, felt by us. We, the manufacturers of Ozorkow, only > have one fulling mill; a very poor one, at that. > > As for my public liabilities, I have nothing to say. I am only liable > for the town treasury tax, labour duty, and the school fee. I have no > reason to complain about public burdens. > > This is my honest testimony, in witness whereof I sign with my own > hand. I state that no one urged me to move to Russia, and that I am > certain I know of no one who would urge it. > > Gottlieb Huebner > > ============= > > So, as Debbie guessed, its mostly economic reasons. > > One reason for a lot of cloth-makers leaving the Lodz > region and moving to Bialystok was that the Russians had put up the > customs duty to keep cheap cloth from the Polish provinces out > of Russia proper. Bialystok at that time was on the Russian side > of the customs line, so some of the big industrialists from the > Lodz region opened up factories in Bialystok, and many of the > small clothmakers moved too. I'll have to check on the date that > the customs were raised - but I think it was soon after the 1830 > Polish uprising. > > Also, clothmaking in the 1800s was still run on the guild > system. After their apprenticeship a young clothmaker had to > several years travelling around working in different towns to > gain experience and see how things were done elsewhere, so they > would know where the best opportunities were. I think that's why > clothmaker families are so challenging to track, because sons > often settled far away from their birthplace, unlike farm people. > > Paul Rakow > > Debbie Greenlee <daveg@airmail.net> wrote: >> Vera, >> >> There are no stupid questions. You've heard that before right? It's >> true, however, I don't think anyone here can answer your question >> definitively. >> >> If adult children were married they _might not_ have followed the >> parents to another place. If the adult children were unmarried then >> they probably would have moved with their parents. >> >> People moved long distances to seek a better life and more work. Word >> of more work/lack of certain craftsmen got around; newspapers, word of >> mouth. Most people at this time did not own land so it wasn't a big >> deal to move. A clothmaker's sons would have worked for him or with him. >> >> You don't have to necessarily hire someone (especially in Bia?ystok) >> to look for records. LDS has filmed Lutheran records for this city >> covering 1841-1886. But these records would only help if you think >> your ancestors were baptized and/or married in the Bia?ystok parish. >> http://tinyurl.com/atfl78j > >> Debbie >

Paul, The same document for my family would be very useful. How I can I find this on my ancestors? I know my great-great-great-grandmother Pauline Kretzer married in Suprasl in 1855 after her family moved from Zgierz. A researcher could only find a brother born in 1843 in the Zgierz area. I was thinking to have the researcher look at records from Ozorkow from 1831 to 1855 because our family lived in three of the same towns as yours, but maybe that will be waste with what is written below. Did many clothmakers move from Lodz in the 1840s to the smaller villages of Zgierz? The researcher did not find Pauline's birth record from 1836. Her son's marriage record says she was born in Biala near Zgierz but the researcher did not find the record. Her brother, Karol Fryderyk Kretzer, was born in Slowik, right near Ozorkow. Pauline's mother was born in 1813 so she was only 30 years when Karol was born. There is possibility for other children to be born but I do not know where to look. Pauline's mother was 18 years old in 1831 so she could have had children starting in late 1831 to 1853. But the father was born in 1803 so I do not know how much longer he wanted to be a father. Any advice? Vera > From: daveg@airmail.net > To: poland-roots@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [POLAND] family relocation in 1830s > > Paul, > > This is great stuff! Where did you find all of this information? I > know it wasn't in English. . . > > Debbie whose own family were farmers. > > Paul Rakow wrote: > > Hello Debbie, Vera, > > > > One of my ancestors moved from Ozorkow (a few miles from Zgierz) > > to Knyszyn near Bialystok at about the same time, 1831. > > > > Along with about 20 other clothmakers from the town, he first > > tried to get permission to move to the Bialystok area in the 1820s. > > I was lucky enough to find some documents about his first attempt > > in the Warsaw archives. Here's what he said: > > > > ====== > > > > 7 August, 1824, Ozorkow > > > > Gottlieb Huebner, cloth manufacturer, presented himself in person, > > and testified: > > > > My name is Gottlieb Huebner, my profession is cloth-maker. I was born > > in the town Zaniemysl in the province Poznan. The last place I lived > > in was the town Pyzdry; I came to live in Ozorkow three years ago. I > > have my own house, on a site with 2 morgens of land. I also own the > > machines needed to pursue my trade, and some household equipment. > > > > 1) So you intend to emigrate to Russia? Why? > > > > Answer to 1) > > > > I intend to move to Russia, if I am permitted. The reason is simply > > that the market in our goods is poor, because of the increasing number > > of large factories, such as the Harrer factory in Sieradz. Trade has > > declined noticeably, and I believe it is bound to collapse. > > > > I do not have any other reasons, and I am not suffering from any > > injustices. The only thing I need to mention in conclusion is that > > the Squire of the Ozorkow estate has already sold the grist and > > fulling mills to be used as manufacturies, and is depriving us of > > opportunities to use the fulling mill. This lack will soon be, in > > fact already is, felt by us. We, the manufacturers of Ozorkow, only > > have one fulling mill; a very poor one, at that. > > > > As for my public liabilities, I have nothing to say. I am only liable > > for the town treasury tax, labour duty, and the school fee. I have no > > reason to complain about public burdens. > > > > This is my honest testimony, in witness whereof I sign with my own > > hand. I state that no one urged me to move to Russia, and that I am > > certain I know of no one who would urge it. > > > > Gottlieb Huebner > > > > ============= > > > > So, as Debbie guessed, its mostly economic reasons. > > > > One reason for a lot of cloth-makers leaving the Lodz > > region and moving to Bialystok was that the Russians had put up the > > customs duty to keep cheap cloth from the Polish provinces out > > of Russia proper. Bialystok at that time was on the Russian side > > of the customs line, so some of the big industrialists from the > > Lodz region opened up factories in Bialystok, and many of the > > small clothmakers moved too. I'll have to check on the date that > > the customs were raised - but I think it was soon after the 1830 > > Polish uprising. > > > > Also, clothmaking in the 1800s was still run on the guild > > system. After their apprenticeship a young clothmaker had to > > several years travelling around working in different towns to > > gain experience and see how things were done elsewhere, so they > > would know where the best opportunities were. I think that's why > > clothmaker families are so challenging to track, because sons > > often settled far away from their birthplace, unlike farm people. > > > > Paul Rakow