Paul, Sounds as if you hit the jackpot with this document. What is the title of the document. Is it a permission to emigrate? This document give much more self-information than many documents contain. Thanks for any light you might shed on a document of this type. Dorothy On Nov 9, 2012, at 3:10 PM, Paul Rakow wrote: Hello Debbie, Vera, One of my ancestors moved from Ozorkow (a few miles from Zgierz) to Knyszyn near Bialystok at about the same time, 1831. Along with about 20 other clothmakers from the town, he first tried to get permission to move to the Bialystok area in the 1820s. I was lucky enough to find some documents about his first attempt in the Warsaw archives. Here's what he said: ====== 7 August, 1824, Ozorkow Gottlieb Huebner, cloth manufacturer, presented himself in person, and testified: My name is Gottlieb Huebner, my profession is cloth-maker. I was born in the town Zaniemysl in the province Poznan. The last place I lived in was the town Pyzdry; I came to live in Ozorkow three years ago. I have my own house, on a site with 2 morgens of land. I also own the machines needed to pursue my trade, and some household equipment. 1) So you intend to emigrate to Russia? Why? Answer to 1) I intend to move to Russia, if I am permitted. The reason is simply that the market in our goods is poor, because of the increasing number of large factories, such as the Harrer factory in Sieradz. Trade has declined noticeably, and I believe it is bound to collapse. I do not have any other reasons, and I am not suffering from any injustices. The only thing I need to mention in conclusion is that the Squire of the Ozorkow estate has already sold the grist and fulling mills to be used as manufacturies, and is depriving us of opportunities to use the fulling mill. This lack will soon be, in fact already is, felt by us. We, the manufacturers of Ozorkow, only have one fulling mill; a very poor one, at that. As for my public liabilities, I have nothing to say. I am only liable for the town treasury tax, labour duty, and the school fee. I have no reason to complain about public burdens. This is my honest testimony, in witness whereof I sign with my own hand. I state that no one urged me to move to Russia, and that I am certain I know of no one who would urge it. Gottlieb Huebner ============= So, as Debbie guessed, its mostly economic reasons. One reason for a lot of cloth-makers leaving the Lodz region and moving to Bialystok was that the Russians had put up the customs duty to keep cheap cloth from the Polish provinces out of Russia proper. Bialystok at that time was on the Russian side of the customs line, so some of the big industrialists from the Lodz region opened up factories in Bialystok, and many of the small clothmakers moved too. I'll have to check on the date that the customs were raised - but I think it was soon after the 1830 Polish uprising. Also, clothmaking in the 1800s was still run on the guild system. After their apprenticeship a young clothmaker had to several years travelling around working in different towns to gain experience and see how things were done elsewhere, so they would know where the best opportunities were. I think that's why clothmaker families are so challenging to track, because sons often settled far away from their birthplace, unlike farm people. Paul Rakow Debbie Greenlee <daveg@airmail.net> wrote: > > Vera, > > There are no stupid questions. You've heard that before right? It's > true, however, I don't think anyone here can answer your question > definitively. > > If adult children were married they _might not_ have followed the > parents to another place. If the adult children were unmarried then > they probably would have moved with their parents. > > People moved long distances to seek a better life and more work. Word > of more work/lack of certain craftsmen got around; newspapers, word of > mouth. Most people at this time did not own land so it wasn't a big > deal to move. A clothmaker's sons would have worked for him or with him. > > You don't have to necessarily hire someone (especially in Bia?ystok) > to look for records. LDS has filmed Lutheran records for this city > covering 1841-1886. But these records would only help if you think > your ancestors were baptized and/or married in the Bia?ystok parish. > http://tinyurl.com/atfl78j [snip] > Debbie > -------------------------- > Vera Miller wrote: >> Hello all, >> I am trying to research the path of my Kretzer family. >> My great-great-great-grandmother Pauline Kretzer was born in 1836 in a > village near Zgierz and Lodz. She married Carl Hoffmann, born 1835 in > Ciechanowiec, near Bialystok. At the time of marriage, Pauline was > living > in Ratowiec near Bialystok. > >> Would it be correct to assume Pauline traveled from Zgierz to near > Bialystok with her parents as an unmarried woman? The Kretzers were > clothmakers. Would all the unmarried children of my > great-great-great-great-grandparents be expected to relocate near > Bialystok or would all grown children (unmarried and married) be > expected to relocate? How would the clothmakers know to relocate to > another city like Bialystok? Would the entire extended family be > offered employment in clothmaking? Sorry if this sounds like stupid > questions. >> I am trying to determine whether it would be worth my money to have > Bialystok archives search for Kretzer in Bialystok evangelical > lutherans records. I do not know whether Kretzer was a common name in > this area for the German population. >> Vera >> ********************************* Need to contact the list manager? 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