As a Catholic, I had my children baptized in a Catholic ceremony, but I must say that I agree with you Julia. If the objection to LDS baptisms is real, in my mind it indicates a weak faith on the part of the objectors. Not only that, but I have the nagging feeling that baptisms are actually inductions as Christians and, as such, do not reflect affiliation with any specific Christian denomination. I could very well be remembering that wrong, since my memory is getting shorter! .......Mike On May 7, 2008, at 3:30 PM, Julia Price wrote: > Being an active member of the LDS Church, I want to put my 2 cents > worth in > here. I don't understand why anyone would object to the practice of > baptizing posthumously. If you don't believe that the LDS Church > has any > power or is a "true" church than what does it matter? If you are > Catholic, > as my son-in-law is, as well as many of my ancestors and were > baptized as a > Catholic and you truly believe in the Catholic church, then why > would you > care? If you really true believe in your own church's doctrine, > what is the > harm?

***I understand, but my point is, why do they care, since LDS baptisms are considered invalid by the RC Church anyway? At 03:51 PM 5/7/2008, you wrote: >Carol, > >The RC church has stated that the LDS baptizing of the dead is >invalid. However, apparently the RC church did issue a directive to >its bishops "not to give information in parish registers to the >Mormons' Genealogical Society of Utah." The wording states the >directive was given to the "episcopal conferences" which means each >"area", country, for example, has the right to decide for themselves >what they want to do. The U.S. is one episcopal conference (not to be >confused with Episcopalians), Poland another. Though the U.S. bishops >may vote to ignore this directive, I bet Poland rolls over, as it >were. Poland already has bishops who have refused LDS access to RC >church records so it's entirely possible that the other bishops will >be convinced to agree with the directive. > >http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0802443.htm >The above source is not the original source (can't find it in any >language on the internet) but Catholic News Service states they have a >copy of the original letter. > >BTW The Polish RC diocesan archives do, in fact, have other religion's >records as well, depending on the archive. I don't know how an >episcopal conference will handle the issue of LDS filming say, Greek >Catholic records in its possession. > >Debbie > >Carol Goodson wrote: > > Although I am a lapsed Catholic (so perhaps my opinion is > > irrelevant), it would seem to me that if you believed that you were a > > member of the one true Faith (whichever one it was), it wouldn't > > matter if another church tried to baptize one of your own: it would > > be invalid anyway and thus have no effect. > > > > Carol Goodson > > Carrollton GA >********************************* >Need to contact the list manager? Write to Marie at >Poland-Roots-admin@rootsweb.com >---------------------------------- >Discussion of Polish food, culture, and customs are welcome on the >list as long as the discussion stays pertinent to the topic of this >list: researching our Polish roots. >---------------------------------- >Browse the list's archives here: >http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=poland-roots >Search the list's archives here: >http://archiver.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/search?aop=1 > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >POLAND-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I have to agree with you, Carol. Also, any extra prayers, etc. wouldn't hurt at all, I would think. I was raised in the Methodist Episcopal church, became Lutheran when I married, Catholic after I divorced, and after my son was killed, I went back to my home ME church. In all my years, and experiences, I have studied a lot. I've had some friends who were Mormons and they were good people. In a lot of what they did, they seemed to be very much like the churches that I knew. I do know there are some big differences. I told one friend that I would be out of luck if I were Mormon because I couldn't wait around for a man to make sure that I was safe, etc. I saw some records on ancestors that mentioned sealing and the Temple in Atlanta. At first, I thought that must have been something they did in the old days at a big Methodist Church. But one of my Mormon friends explained it to me. And, actually, I thought that it was a nice thing to do, in case there were no relatives around, and they wouldn't have known if the deceased had ever belonged to a church. I guess some look at it as an attempt to make everyone a Mormon (just as a lot of other religions try to make everyone belong to their church). I just looked at it as a nice gesture, and if people want to keep their ancestors as a certain thing, fine. If they consider the deceased as being Mormons after the sealing, then that is okay. It may not matter once the person is dead, to my way of thinking. They can longer do any deeds or practice any kind of religion, make choices, etc. Cecelia > Although I am a lapsed Catholic (so perhaps my opinion is > irrelevant), it would seem to me that if you believed that you were a > member of the one true Faith (whichever one it was), it wouldn't > matter if another church tried to baptize one of your own: it would > be invalid anyway and thus have no effect. > > Carol Goodson > Carrollton GA >

Denise, Marie, None of my German/ Polish ancestors were Catholic, so this issue does not affect me directly. I can see both points of view here, and both are equally valid. Is there any evidence that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints has rebapitzed people's ancestors ( after death) without their descendents' knowledge or agreement? Or is the practice restricted to living members of the LDS Church? - That is, living members of the Church have agreed to their ancestors' rebaptism, so that they will meet again in the afterlife? I'm not especially religious, and know very little about the LDS Church, its doctrines and rules, but I cannot see it baptizing people's ancestors on an ad hoc basis, as it were. Anne ----- Original Message ----- From: "MJDallas" <rwlistsboards@comcast.net> To: <poland-roots@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 3:37 PM Subject: Re: [POLAND] Vatican Orders Records Withheld from Mormons Denise Patterson wrote: > We may never see the parrish records on line Annoying as it may be, we do have to remember that sacramental records were not created for genealogical purposes. And if the RC Church doesn't want to allow them to be digitized by the LDS church, well, that's their right. However, another thing to keep in mind is that priests were the "official" record keepers in occupied Poland, so the copies of their records that they turned over to the local civil government can be a decent stand-in for parish records. Where my ancestors were from (Jasienica parish near Ostrów Maz.), the civil copies of birth records contain the date of baptism as well as the names of the godparents. -Marie ********************************* Need to contact the list manager? Write to Marie at Poland-Roots-admin@rootsweb.com ---------------------------------- Discussion of Polish food, culture, and customs are welcome on the list as long as the discussion stays pertinent to the topic of this list: researching our Polish roots. ---------------------------------- Browse the list's archives here: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=poland-roots Search the list's archives here: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/search?aop=1 ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to POLAND-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Anettka, How does one get permission from a dead person? "The answer was that they had the right to refuse/not accept the baptism... " Debbie Anettka@aol.com wrote: > If it is any consolation to those whose ancestors were Catholic, or Jewish > or whatever.... Years ago before the temple in San Diego was consecrated, the > public was offered the opportunity to tour the temple. My brother and I took > up that offer and went through it. When reaching the room of baptism, I > asked 'but what if our ancestors didn't want to become/be baptized Mormon?' The > answer was that they had the right to refuse/not accept the baptism... > > And as decedents of these potential 'convertees', one can keep their > research among only those who have the most right to it... the family of their > ancestors, and thus not support baptism of the masses. I might also add, that > part of the Mormon goals supporting their interest in genealogy include sealing > children to parents and husbands to wives so they will be together for > eternity, this also can be done posthumously. By extension of prior refusal of > baptism, I suppose that the deceased can reject these rites also... but since one > must be a Mormon to receive the later rites, it would seem refusal of the > former would negate anything done later. > > Anettka > > >

Carol, I think the RC church claims (as one reason) it is trying to protect the privacy of its members (even those who died 200 years ago apparently). I wonder if the RC church sees the "cooperation" as enabling/being tolerant of a religion with which it doesn't agree. Some other possibilities can be found here: http://www.haloscan.com/comments/americanpapist/8350217687800289097/ Debbie Carol Goodson wrote: > ***I understand, but my point is, why do they care, since LDS > baptisms are considered invalid by the RC Church anyway? > > At 03:51 PM 5/7/2008, you wrote: >> Carol, >> >> The RC church has stated that the LDS baptizing of the dead is >> invalid. However, apparently the RC church did issue a directive to >> its bishops "not to give information in parish registers to the >> Mormons' Genealogical Society of Utah." The wording states the >> directive was given to the "episcopal conferences" which means each >> "area", country, for example, has the right to decide for themselves >> what they want to do. The U.S. is one episcopal conference (not to be >> confused with Episcopalians), Poland another. Though the U.S. bishops >> may vote to ignore this directive, I bet Poland rolls over, as it >> were. Poland already has bishops who have refused LDS access to RC >> church records so it's entirely possible that the other bishops will >> be convinced to agree with the directive. >> >> http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0802443.htm >> The above source is not the original source (can't find it in any >> language on the internet) but Catholic News Service states they have a >> copy of the original letter. >> >> BTW The Polish RC diocesan archives do, in fact, have other religion's >> records as well, depending on the archive. I don't know how an >> episcopal conference will handle the issue of LDS filming say, Greek >> Catholic records in its possession. >> >> Debbie >> >> Carol Goodson wrote: >>> Although I am a lapsed Catholic (so perhaps my opinion is >>> irrelevant), it would seem to me that if you believed that you were a >>> member of the one true Faith (whichever one it was), it wouldn't >>> matter if another church tried to baptize one of your own: it would >>> be invalid anyway and thus have no effect. >>> >>> Carol Goodson >>> Carrollton GA

The RC church cares about rebaptisims for the same reason that Islam cares if you make catroons about their prophet. Religion works that way. The sacred is sacred in all religions. What about the civil records that the RC clergy completed.? They should still be able to be filmed although there it depends on civil governments giving their permission. --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Anne and Sharon, But that is exactly how it is done in LDS. Debbie Sharon Baldwin wrote: > Anne, > It should not be done without the nearest living relative's consent. > Sharon > > Anne Keen <akdl25466_2@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote: > I'm not especially religious, and know very little about the LDS Church, its > doctrines and rules, but I cannot see it baptizing people's ancestors on an > ad hoc basis, as it were. > Anne

On May 7, 2008, at 2:21 PM, Carol Goodson wrote: > ***I understand, but my point is, why do they care, since LDS > baptisms are considered invalid by the RC Church anyway? I think it's a matter of perceived arrogance. Would you want a "distant" relative of a Wiccan, or Amish, or Hare Krishna, or Jainist or any other group to look at the family trees of "true believers" and say they are wrong (based on the teachings of the other's religion) and announce all those Mormons will be now baptized as Amish or Wiccans, etc. After all, if those beliefs are wrong, their posthumous conversions did no harm; if they were correct in converting all those Mormons, then they have done the Mormons a grand favor. I'm sure there would be some Mormons who would be a little peeved at the arrogance of those other religions who believe their belief is the only true religion and the Mormons they are helping were wrong. We speak of "tolerance" among the religions, but if you reverse the argument, you can see denying the faith of one religion does not make your religion the one true religion. That's why it's called a "belief" -- it is your belief that you believe yours is the religion that fits your spiritual needs. Not everyone has the same belief system. Baptizing a person who did not freely welcome the Latter Day Saints doctrine while they were alive, can be interpreted as religious arrogance -- "offensive display of superiority or self-importance; overbearing pride." That is why the Jewish community and now the Roman Catholic Church are raising this point of discussion. Unfortunately, those of us who have non-religious purposes to our family research are caught in the middle of religious objections. God bless the Mormons for taking the astronomical task of microfilming records throughout the world. Our task of finding our ancestors would have discouraged most of use from ever taking this exciting road through history. But please remember that no matter how you phrase the motivation behind gathering this documentation, it really is offensive to a lot of people who do not share in the same belief system. -- Alan

Carol, The RC church has stated that the LDS baptizing of the dead is invalid. However, apparently the RC church did issue a directive to its bishops "not to give information in parish registers to the Mormons' Genealogical Society of Utah." The wording states the directive was given to the "episcopal conferences" which means each "area", country, for example, has the right to decide for themselves what they want to do. The U.S. is one episcopal conference (not to be confused with Episcopalians), Poland another. Though the U.S. bishops may vote to ignore this directive, I bet Poland rolls over, as it were. Poland already has bishops who have refused LDS access to RC church records so it's entirely possible that the other bishops will be convinced to agree with the directive. http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0802443.htm The above source is not the original source (can't find it in any language on the internet) but Catholic News Service states they have a copy of the original letter. BTW The Polish RC diocesan archives do, in fact, have other religion's records as well, depending on the archive. I don't know how an episcopal conference will handle the issue of LDS filming say, Greek Catholic records in its possession. Debbie Carol Goodson wrote: > Although I am a lapsed Catholic (so perhaps my opinion is > irrelevant), it would seem to me that if you believed that you were a > member of the one true Faith (whichever one it was), it wouldn't > matter if another church tried to baptize one of your own: it would > be invalid anyway and thus have no effect. > > Carol Goodson > Carrollton GA

Anettka is correct. Any baptisms or temple work done by proxy for ancestors by the LDS members allows the deceased recipient the opportunity to accept or reject the ordinace work done on their behalf. There are many LDS converts whose ancestors were Catholic, Lutheran, Baptist, etc and even some Jewish so the old records are needed for research. Perhaps the Vatican skipped over Malachi 4:6. Rose From: Anettka@aol.com If it is any consolation to those whose ancestors were Catholic, or Jewish or whatever.... Years ago before the temple in San Diego was consecrated, the public was offered the opportunity to tour the temple. My brother and I took up that offer and went through it. When reaching the room of baptism, I asked 'but what if our ancestors didn't want to become/be baptized Mormon?' The answer was that they had the right to refuse/not accept the baptism... And as decedents of these potential 'convertees', one can keep their research among only those who have the most right to it... the family of their ancestors, and thus not support baptism of the masses. I might also add, that part of the Mormon goals supporting their interest in genealogy include sealing children to parents and husbands to wives so they will be together for eternity, this also can be done posthumously. By extension of prior refusal of baptism, I suppose that the deceased can reject these rites also... but since one must be a Mormon to receive the later rites, it would seem refusal of the former would negate anything done later. Anettka

I received the same type of notice from another list that I am on. Seems to be the truth. Penny -----Original Message----- From: poland-roots-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:poland-roots-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of poland-roots-request@rootsweb.com Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 3:06 AM To: poland-roots@rootsweb.com Subject: POLAND-ROOTS Digest, Vol 3, Issue 198 If you'd like to post a message so everyone on the mailing list receives it, just send it to: POLAND-ROOTS@rootsweb.com. It will then be sent on to everyone on the subscriber list. Please note that the address to post messages to the list is NOT the same as the address to (un)subscribe. Don't forget to edit the subject line to reflect the topic of your reply, and please remember NOT to include the entire digest when clicking reply! * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * There are two sending formats of the digest: plain (inline) text and MIME (attached messages). If you'd like to switch the format of your digest, write POLAND-ROOTS-admin@rootsweb.com to request your digest format be changed. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * List manager: Marie - poland-roots-admin@rootsweb.com List's archives: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=poland-roots Today's Topics: 1. New Catholic policy? (Thaddeus Ciechanowski) 2. Re: New Catholic policy? (BPenix) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 02:50:56 -0700 (PDT) From: Thaddeus Ciechanowski <ciechat@yahoo.com> Subject: [POLAND] New Catholic policy? To: Polish roots <POLAND-ROOTS-L@rootsweb.com>, Polish Genius <polish_genius@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <285062.30399.qm@web52503.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Has anyone else heard of this?? If it's true, this is not good. Here's the link for the following article. http://catholicism.about.com/b/2008/05/06/baptism-of-the-dead-its-not-for-catholics-anymore.htm?nl=1 Ted Scott's Catholicism Blog >From Scott P. Richert, Your Guide to Catholicism. FREE Newsletter. Sign Up Now! Baptism of the Dead: It's Not for Catholics Anymore The About.com Guide to Genealogy, Kimberly Powell, has news of a very important directive issued by the Vatican Congregation for the Clergy on April 5, 2008. As the Catholic News Service reported, the Congregation for the Clergy has directed all Catholic dioceses "not to give information in parish registers to the Mormons' Genealogical Society of Utah." The reason is that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, commonly known as the Mormons, engage in a practice of baptizing the dead. Any Mormon in good standing may stand in as a proxy for a dead relative, engaging in baptism on his or her behalf. Mormons believe that such posthumous baptisms allow those who did not have the opportunity to be exposed to the Mormon gospel while alive to accept or reject that gospel. While Mormons base their belief in part on Saint Paul's remark about the baptism of the dead in 1 Corinthians 15:29, the Christian Church has, from apostolic times, rejected the idea of the baptism of the dead and pointed out that Saint Paul was actually making an argument about the resurrection of the dead. The statement by the Congregation for the Clergy is based on the need to combat this doctrine which Mormons present as Christian and states that each bishop should ensure that such a detrimental practice is not permitted in his territory, due to the confidentiality of the faithful and so as not to cooperate with the erroneous practices of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Kimberly, who is herself a Catholic, notes that the Mormons have preserved many parish registers that might otherwise have been lost, and she expresses some confusion over this decision, given that the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith declared in 2001 that Mormon baptisms are not valid (because, while Mormons use the Trinitarian formula for baptism, they do not believe in the Trinity). But that is precisely the point: The Catholic Church does not believe that Mormon baptisms of the dead have any effect, but She does have an obligation to combat errors that are presented as Christian. Baptism of the dead is one such error, and the Congregation of the Clergy, in order to safeguard the true meaning of the Sacrament of Baptism, has decided that the Church must avoid the appearance of cooperating in that error. Tuesday May 6, 2008 | comments (2) Email to a Friend | Submit to Digg ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Tue, 6 May 2008 15:43:47 -0500 From: "BPenix" <bhpen05@machlink.com> Subject: Re: [POLAND] New Catholic policy? To: <poland-roots@rootsweb.com>, "'Polish roots'" <POLAND-ROOTS-L@rootsweb.com>, "'Polish Genius'" <polish_genius@yahoogroups.com> Message-ID: <372F5751F38A43D1B9740D6E526E6825@BillPPC> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Maybe the needs of genealogy will drive the RC Church to adopt a more assertive approach to providing ALL documents in electronic format in a centralized data base like FHS files. Bill Fax: 563-263-7186 -----Original Message----- From: poland-roots-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:poland-roots-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Thaddeus Ciechanowski Sent: Tuesday, May 06, 2008 4:51 AM To: Polish roots; Polish Genius Subject: [POLAND] New Catholic policy? Has anyone else heard of this?? If it's true, this is not good. Here's the link for the following article. http://catholicism.about.com/b/2008/05/06/baptism-of-the-dead-its-not-for-ca tholics-anymore.htm?nl=1 Ted Scott's Catholicism Blog >From Scott P. Richert, Your Guide to Catholicism. FREE Newsletter. Sign Up Now! Baptism of the Dead: It's Not for Catholics Anymore The About.com Guide to Genealogy, Kimberly Powell, has news of a very important directive issued by the Vatican Congregation for the Clergy on April 5, 2008. As the Catholic News Service reported, the Congregation for the Clergy has directed all Catholic dioceses "not to give information in parish registers to the Mormons' Genealogical Society of Utah." The reason is that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, commonly known as the Mormons, engage in a practice of baptizing the dead. Any Mormon in good standing may stand in as a proxy for a dead relative, engaging in baptism on his or her behalf. Mormons believe that such posthumous baptisms allow those who did not have the opportunity to be exposed to the Mormon gospel while alive to accept or reject that gospel. While Mormons base their belief in part on Saint Paul's remark about the baptism of the dead in 1 Corinthians 15:29, the Christian Church has, from apostolic times, rejected the idea of the baptism of the dead and pointed out that Saint Paul was actually making an argument about the resurrection of the dead. The statement by the Congregation for the Clergy is based on the need to combat this doctrine which Mormons present as Christian and states that each bishop should ensure that such a detrimental practice is not permitted in his territory, due to the confidentiality of the faithful and so as not to cooperate with the erroneous practices of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Kimberly, who is herself a Catholic, notes that the Mormons have preserved many parish registers that might otherwise have been lost, and she expresses some confusion over this decision, given that the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith declared in 2001 that Mormon baptisms are not valid (because, while Mormons use the Trinitarian formula for baptism, they do not believe in the Trinity). But that is precisely the point: The Catholic Church does not believe that Mormon baptisms of the dead have any effect, but She does have an obligation to combat errors that are presented as Christian. Baptism of the dead is one such error, and the Congregation of the Clergy, in order to safeguard the true meaning of the Sacrament of Baptism, has decided that the Church must avoid the appearance of cooperating in that error. Tuesday May 6, 2008 | comments (2) Email to a Friend | Submit to Digg ____________________________________________________________________________ ________ Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ ********************************* Need to contact the list manager? Write to Marie at Poland-Roots-admin@rootsweb.com ---------------------------------- Discussion of Polish food, culture, and customs are welcome on the list as long as the discussion stays pertinent to the topic of this list: researching our Polish roots. ---------------------------------- Browse the list's archives here: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=poland-roots Search the list's archives here: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/search?aop=1 ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to POLAND-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------ To contact the POLAND-ROOTS list administrator, send an email to POLAND-ROOTS-admin@rootsweb.com. To post a message to the POLAND-ROOTS mailing list, send an email to POLAND-ROOTS@rootsweb.com. __________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to POLAND-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the body of the email with no additional text. End of POLAND-ROOTS Digest, Vol 3, Issue 198 ********************************************

HI, Anne Keen <akdl25466_2@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote: > Is there any evidence that the Church of Jesus > Christ of Latter-Day Saints > has rebapitzed people's ancestors ( after death) > without their descendents' > knowledge or agreement? Yes, there's plenty of evidence of that. Just Google "Mormons baptizing dead" and you'll find plenty of articles about this, and especially about Jews objecting to the LDS's repeated baptism of Jews who are no longer around to object. You'll also find articles that explain why the LDS promotes genealogy -- in order to baptize all people who were ancestors to Mormons. They're trying to document humankind as far back as possible, because the further back you go, the more certain it is your ancestors and mine coincide. The way they see it, no one should be "off limits" to them because all people who ever lived are potential ancestors. That's also why they willingly let non-Mormons use their facilities. The more family trees are documented, the more ancestors of Mormons will be found. A really interesting book was published last year on the doctrinal underpinning for LDS genealogical research. It's by Donald Harman Akenson, and it's entitled _Some Family: The Mormons and How Humanity Keeps Track of Itself_ (ISBN 978-0773532953 ). I haven't finished it yet; the middle chapters are rather heavy going. But I intend to finish it, as it is very informative, and the author has a nice sense of humor. I'm learning a lot I didn't know about why Mormons take genealogy so seriously. The doctrine sounds like utter nonsense to me, but religious beliefs always seem like drivel as long as they're not yours.... Fred Hoffman

Although I am a lapsed Catholic (so perhaps my opinion is irrelevant), it would seem to me that if you believed that you were a member of the one true Faith (whichever one it was), it wouldn't matter if another church tried to baptize one of your own: it would be invalid anyway and thus have no effect. Carol Goodson Carrollton GA

Being an active member of the LDS Church, I want to put my 2 cents worth in here. I don't understand why anyone would object to the practice of baptizing posthumously. If you don't believe that the LDS Church has any power or is a "true" church than what does it matter? If you are Catholic, as my son-in-law is, as well as many of my ancestors and were baptized as a Catholic and you truly believe in the Catholic church, then why would you care? If you really true believe in your own church's doctrine, what is the harm? If you were baptized a Lutheran, as almost all of my father's ancestors were and then I, as an active Mormon had them baptized into the LDS faith, if my aunts and uncles who are still Lutherans didn't agree with my faith, I believe they are comfortable knowing that their ancestors were baptized as Lutherans. I think in the world that we live in that we all need to be accepting and tolerant of other's believe and opinions. I love my sons-in-laws and my grandchildren baptized in the Catholic church, as much as I love my grandchildren baptized into the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day-SAints. I believe in the teachings and tenets of the LDS church, but I was not offended or upset that my children chose another faith and I believe that my ancestors would have felt the same. I believe all of us climbing our family trees do it for different reasons, I do it both for my faith, but also because I want to feel a connection with others who have come before me. I don't feel I'm better or worse because of the church my ancestors chose to join. Let us all be more tolerant. I think it is very sad that the Catholic church has done this, as I think it was done for the wrong reason, because somehow they felt threatened. The only reason to act out of fear is if you are unsure of your own beliefs. Julia Price ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Hoffman" <wmfhoffman@sbcglobal.net> To: <poland-roots@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 10:52 AM Subject: Re: [POLAND] Vatican Orders Records Withheld from Mormons > HI, > > Anne Keen <akdl25466_2@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote: > >> Is there any evidence that the Church of Jesus >> Christ of Latter-Day Saints >> has rebapitzed people's ancestors ( after death) >> without their descendents' >> knowledge or agreement? > > Yes, there's plenty of evidence of that. Just > Google "Mormons baptizing dead" and you'll find > plenty of articles about this, and especially > about Jews objecting to the LDS's repeated baptism > of Jews who are no longer around to object. You'll > also find articles that explain why the LDS > promotes genealogy -- in order to baptize all > people who were ancestors to Mormons. They're > trying to document humankind as far back as > possible, because the further back you go, the > more certain it is your ancestors and mine > coincide. The way they see it, no one should be > "off limits" to them because all people who ever > lived are potential ancestors. That's also why > they willingly let non-Mormons use their > facilities. The more family trees are documented, > the more ancestors of Mormons will be found. > > A really interesting book was published last year > on the doctrinal underpinning for LDS genealogical > research. It's by Donald Harman Akenson, and it's > entitled _Some Family: The Mormons and How > Humanity Keeps Track of Itself_ (ISBN > 978-0773532953 ). I haven't finished it yet; the > middle chapters are rather heavy going. But I > intend to finish it, as it is very informative, > and the author has a nice sense of humor. I'm > learning a lot I didn't know about why Mormons > take genealogy so seriously. The doctrine sounds > like utter nonsense to me, but religious beliefs > always seem like drivel as long as they're not > yours.... > > Fred Hoffman > > ********************************* > Need to contact the list manager? Write to Marie at > Poland-Roots-admin@rootsweb.com > ---------------------------------- > Discussion of Polish food, culture, and customs are welcome on the list as > long as the discussion stays pertinent to the topic of this list: > researching our Polish roots. > ---------------------------------- > Browse the list's archives here: > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=poland-roots > Search the list's archives here: > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/search?aop=1 > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > POLAND-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Anne, It should not be done without the nearest living relative's consent. Sharon Anne Keen <akdl25466_2@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote: Denise, Marie, None of my German/ Polish ancestors were Catholic, so this issue does not affect me directly. I can see both points of view here, and both are equally valid. Is there any evidence that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints has rebapitzed people's ancestors ( after death) without their descendents' knowledge or agreement? Or is the practice restricted to living members of the LDS Church? - That is, living members of the Church have agreed to their ancestors' rebaptism, so that they will meet again in the afterlife? I'm not especially religious, and know very little about the LDS Church, its doctrines and rules, but I cannot see it baptizing people's ancestors on an ad hoc basis, as it were. Anne ----- Original Message ----- From: "MJDallas" To: Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2008 3:37 PM Subject: Re: [POLAND] Vatican Orders Records Withheld from Mormons Denise Patterson wrote: > We may never see the parrish records on line Annoying as it may be, we do have to remember that sacramental records were not created for genealogical purposes. And if the RC Church doesn't want to allow them to be digitized by the LDS church, well, that's their right. However, another thing to keep in mind is that priests were the "official" record keepers in occupied Poland, so the copies of their records that they turned over to the local civil government can be a decent stand-in for parish records. Where my ancestors were from (Jasienica parish near Ostrów Maz.), the civil copies of birth records contain the date of baptism as well as the names of the godparents. -Marie ********************************* Need to contact the list manager? Write to Marie at Poland-Roots-admin@rootsweb.com ---------------------------------- Discussion of Polish food, culture, and customs are welcome on the list as long as the discussion stays pertinent to the topic of this list: researching our Polish roots. ---------------------------------- Browse the list's archives here: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=poland-roots Search the list's archives here: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/search?aop=1 ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to POLAND-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ********************************* Need to contact the list manager? Write to Marie at Poland-Roots-admin@rootsweb.com ---------------------------------- Discussion of Polish food, culture, and customs are welcome on the list as long as the discussion stays pertinent to the topic of this list: researching our Polish roots. ---------------------------------- Browse the list's archives here: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=poland-roots Search the list's archives here: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/search?aop=1 ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to POLAND-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Carol, Amen. I think that people who take things too seriously in life, are missing out on life. Edwina Carol Goodson <sunybuffaloalum@mindspring.com> wrote: Although I am a lapsed Catholic (so perhaps my opinion is irrelevant), it would seem to me that if you believed that you were a member of the one true Faith (whichever one it was), it wouldn't matter if another church tried to baptize one of your own: it would be invalid anyway and thus have no effect. Carol Goodson Carrollton GA ********************************* Need to contact the list manager? Write to Marie at Poland-Roots-admin@rootsweb.com ---------------------------------- Discussion of Polish food, culture, and customs are welcome on the list as long as the discussion stays pertinent to the topic of this list: researching our Polish roots. ---------------------------------- Browse the list's archives here: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=poland-roots Search the list's archives here: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/search?aop=1 ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to POLAND-ROOTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message --------------------------------- Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

Denise Patterson wrote: > We may never see the parrish records on line Annoying as it may be, we do have to remember that sacramental records were not created for genealogical purposes. And if the RC Church doesn't want to allow them to be digitized by the LDS church, well, that's their right. However, another thing to keep in mind is that priests were the "official" record keepers in occupied Poland, so the copies of their records that they turned over to the local civil government can be a decent stand-in for parish records. Where my ancestors were from (Jasienica parish near Ostrów Maz.), the civil copies of birth records contain the date of baptism as well as the names of the godparents. -Marie

At the Parker Stake Center in my town, it's done all the time. When asked about it, members of the Mormon church openly explain that is one of the purposes attached to their dedication to researching family history. As one Mormon genealogist who spoke at a local breakfast meeting on Monday explained (and I'm paraphrasing from memory), "If baptism of those who were not baptized is required to enter the Kingdom of Heaven, a member of the church (in this case the Church of Latter Day Saints) can stand in for the dead so that they would be baptized into the Mormon church. If we're wrong, then it's all a mute issue and the Mormon Church has wasted a lot of time and money in the effort. If we're correct, we've done them a favor by bringing them into the Mormon Church so that they can enter the Kingdom of Heaven." While it would be nice if all churches recognized that their church books have a limited shelf-life. They will (and are) becoming extremely fragile -- some records are too fragile to handle any longer. Lessons should be learned from the leading archives throughout the world and take great care in preserving the documents in a digital form that can be upgraded as technology changes without disrupting the fragility of the original source. This has nothing to do with a priest's responsibility to protect the church books -- it can be argued that not preserving the documents is actually a blatant case of NOT protecting the church books. Now, it comes down to an issues of WHO shall preserve the records. Most archives do not have the funds to launch into a full-scale effort to digitize their records. The Mormons offer to do the work at their expense, but with the stigma attached to it that SOME people who use the microfilm will use it for the Baptism of the Dead. Those who use the files at Ancestry or go to local town halls to view the original records, or visit local parishes to view those records -- MAY also use that information for the Baptism of the Dead. Even though I have no empirical data to support my opinion, but I would venture to say that most of us who use the myriad of sources available online or in archives for research purposes OTHER than Baptizing the Dead into our own particular religious beliefs. The Roman Catholic Church does not appreciate their church members (as indicated by their church records) being baptized into another faith. It would be like a group of any other faith coming to town and saying they would like access to all the Mormon records so the visiting religious group can convert those members into the other faith. To me, that's a reflection of religious arrogance of some people. When I was doing research at the Lawrence Massachusetts City Hall, I got into a conversation with a city council member after overhearing his conversation with the clerk. They were complaining that much of their time was being spent pulling books for people looking for genealogy information. Since I was the only one in the room that was making genealogy requests, I decided to speak up. I told the council member that more and more communities are microfilming or digitizing their public records so that citizens can do their own work. He informed me the city did not have the money to do that. I told them the Mormons would probably be more than happy to do the work for them at their expenses. The council member never heard of the Mormons (even though Mitt Romney was their governor at the time), but the city clerk immediately started rolling her eyes over the mention of "Mormons". Again, we could have argued the religious implications of making public records public -- or we could have argued the importance of preserving those records. Or we could have argued how digitizing or microfilming public records will actually save staff-hours of public employees. Either way, it would have been more valuable if there was an organized effort to help educate the decision-makers about the importance and value of preserving these records. This includes the town clerks in small towns where our ancestors immigrated, lived, and raised a family. And it includes the decision-makers at the Roman Catholic Churches who want to further block the Mormons from microfilming their records. -- Alan On May 7, 2008, at 9:16 AM, Anne Keen wrote: > Denise, Marie, > > None of my German/ Polish ancestors were Catholic, so this issue > does not > affect me directly. I can see both points of view here, and both are > equally > valid. > > Is there any evidence that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day > Saints > has rebapitzed people's ancestors ( after death) without their > descendents' > knowledge or agreement? Or is the practice restricted to living > members of > the LDS Church? - That is, living members of the Church have agreed > to their > ancestors' rebaptism, so that they will meet again in the afterlife? > > I'm not especially religious, and know very little about the LDS > Church, its > doctrines and rules, but I cannot see it baptizing people's > ancestors on an > ad hoc basis, as it were. > > Anne