Thank you, Rafał, for covering Elżbieta Brożka's visit to the Polish Mission and the work of the Polonica Americana Research Institute (PARI). http://www.telewizjadetroit.com/video.html?data=xml/StyczenKwiecien.xml&flvI D=118 and http://www.telewizjadetroit.com/video.html?data=xml%2FStyczenKwiecien.xml&fl vID=99

Hello Barbara: This is regarding your question on abscesses. Unfortunately this can apply to other issues besides teeth. My grandmother had hip surgery and was bed-ridden for quite a while. She developed a bed sore which the doctors referred to as an abscess (a hole in the skin that can go down inches and will not heal or close). This infection eventually spread and had to be treated with strong antibiotics. Thankfully she beat the infection and was able to return home. Back in the day prior to penicillin, these abscesses could easily have caused death to our relatives. Today, I think a death certificate would state "sepsis or infection" as the cause of death. I hope this helps in your research. Sincerely, Heidi Sisco

"Wrzo~d" is one of the causes of death I see occasionally in records. I know it translates as "abscess." What kind(s) of abscess(es) would this refer to? Would it be anything other than a dental abscess? Thanks for any info, Barbara Proko(powicz) Basia's Polish Family: From Wilno to Worcester http://wilnoworcester.blogspot.com/

Vera, Like most governmental records (U.S. included), their are time limits placed on when certain records are available to the public. Basically, Polish Urza~d Stanu Cywilnego (USC= local vital records) offices send their "current" records to the state archives when they are 100 years old. You can request records from the USC but they will require proof of your connection and may not honor the request at all. Certainly they will not do research for you. The best you can hope for is one or two records. If you are trying to locate living family I suggest you contact the priest in the appropriate parish and start by asking if there is anyone in his parish with "your" surname. Debbie Vera Miller wrote: > > Hello all, > > I am curious about what years of documents are considered archives. I paid > Bialystok archives to research my family up until 1907, which is when their > archives end. I have two lines that need completion. I am interested in > hiring a researcher for the Bialystok area. What year would archives end- > 1978?? Thanks. >

This site will assist you in identifying what records are available in the Bialystok archives and for what years they cover: http://baza.archiwa.gov.pl/sezam/pradziad.php?l=en. Type in the parish in the top line and click on your enter key to find them. Click in Information and Searching Guidelines for help in using the site. Tina Ellis On Fri, Feb 4, 2011 at 4:13 AM, Vera Miller <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Hello all, > > I am curious about what years of documents are considered archives. I > paid > Bialystok archives to research my family up until 1907, which is when > their > archives end. I have two lines that need completion. I am interested in > hiring a researcher for the Bialystok area. What year would archives end- > 1978?? Thanks. > ********************************* > Need to contact the list manager? Write to Marie at > [email protected] > ---------------------------------- > Discussion of Polish food, culture, and customs are welcome on the list as > long as the discussion stays pertinent to the topic of this list: > researching our Polish roots. > ---------------------------------- > Browse the list's archives here: > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=poland-roots > Search the list's archives here: > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/search?aop=1 > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Hello all, I am curious about what years of documents are considered archives. I paid Bialystok archives to research my family up until 1907, which is when their archives end. I have two lines that need completion. I am interested in hiring a researcher for the Bialystok area. What year would archives end- 1978?? Thanks.

Hi Fred, Thanks for your insights on my translation efforts. I hadn't thought about Lagodka starting with Ł instead of L, although I hope I will next time. You are right. It is there at www.herby.com.pl/indexslo.html. I will be studying your suggestions. The Cyrillic characters came through fine and really help me to understand it better. Also, I just got "In Their Words: Russian" within the last couple of weeks. Aside from several websites and much appreciated help from Poland Roots list members, I'd been using Shea's older book "Russian Language Documents from Russian Poland" previously. It has been very helpful, but there is so much more in the new book that I am already enjoying using it. Surprisingly, I came across something about palatalized consonants when I was struggling with a word the other day (really!). I'll read those pages to get a better understanding of what it means. Thanks again, Michele On 2/3/2011 1:55 PM, Fred Hoffman wrote: > Hi, > > Michelle wrote: > >> Thank you very much for your help. I'll have to pay close attention to >> those words relating to times. I am very pleased that I got the names >> right. Lagodka was not at www.herby.com. Lagoda was but the 'k' was so >> clear that it had to be in there. > Ah, but it is at www.herby.com.pl/indexslo.html. You have to search for > ?AG?DKA, and you'll find it. Remember, when Russian has the characters > corresponding to our LA-, which look like JIA-, it equates to Polish ŁA- (if > that doesn't come through clearly, the first letter is the slash-L). Polish > LA- corresponds to the letters that look like JI R with the R backwards. > > If these characters display properly, you'll see what I mean: > > Polish Lagodka = Лягодка > Polish Łagodka = Лагодка > > Actually, the Polish name would usually be ŁAGÓDKA, pronounced roughly > "wah-GOOT-kah," which Russians might spell ЛАГОДКА or ЛАГУДКА or even > ЛАГУТКА. But if the Russian spelling begins with ЛА-, expect the Polish > spelling to begin ŁA-. Similarly, Lublin is normally spelled Люблин when > rendered in the Cyrillic alphabet, whereas ŁUPAK would be ЛУПАК. Polish LE- > and ŁE- would typically both be rendered ЛЕ-, LI- would normally be ЛИ-, ŁY- > = ЛЫ- (Polish can't have the letter combinations LY- or ŁI-), LO- and ŁO- = > ЛО-. > > Some Polish letters are very easy to match up with their Cyrillic > counterparts. Others are tricky. I'm afraid any combination of L- or Ł and a > vowel needs extra attention. The use of wild cards at the Herby site can be > very useful in dealing with these complications. > > Now, looking back over this note, I sure hope the foreign characters come > through correctly, or it will be complete gibberish. I think I recall that > you have a copy of _In Their Words ... Russian_, Michelle. If so, the info > on pages 23-27 tries to make sense of all this. But the only way to get a > really good grip on it is to learn the importance of palatalized consonants > in the Slavic languages, and then become familiar with how Polish and > Russian express them in their alphabets. Not exactly light reading! > > Fred Hoffman > > > ********************************* > Need to contact the list manager? Write to Marie at [email protected] > ---------------------------------- > Discussion of Polish food, culture, and customs are welcome on the list as long as the discussion stays pertinent to the topic of this list: researching our Polish roots. > ---------------------------------- > Browse the list's archives here: > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=poland-roots > Search the list's archives here: > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/search?aop=1 > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi, Michelle wrote: > Thank you very much for your help. I'll have to pay close attention to > those words relating to times. I am very pleased that I got the names > right. Lagodka was not at www.herby.com. Lagoda was but the 'k' was so > clear that it had to be in there. Ah, but it is at www.herby.com.pl/indexslo.html. You have to search for ?AG?DKA, and you'll find it. Remember, when Russian has the characters corresponding to our LA-, which look like JIA-, it equates to Polish ŁA- (if that doesn't come through clearly, the first letter is the slash-L). Polish LA- corresponds to the letters that look like JI R with the R backwards. If these characters display properly, you'll see what I mean: Polish Lagodka = Лягодка Polish Łagodka = Лагодка Actually, the Polish name would usually be ŁAGÓDKA, pronounced roughly "wah-GOOT-kah," which Russians might spell ЛАГОДКА or ЛАГУДКА or even ЛАГУТКА. But if the Russian spelling begins with ЛА-, expect the Polish spelling to begin ŁA-. Similarly, Lublin is normally spelled Люблин when rendered in the Cyrillic alphabet, whereas ŁUPAK would be ЛУПАК. Polish LE- and ŁE- would typically both be rendered ЛЕ-, LI- would normally be ЛИ-, ŁY- = ЛЫ- (Polish can't have the letter combinations LY- or ŁI-), LO- and ŁO- = ЛО-. Some Polish letters are very easy to match up with their Cyrillic counterparts. Others are tricky. I'm afraid any combination of L- or Ł and a vowel needs extra attention. The use of wild cards at the Herby site can be very useful in dealing with these complications. Now, looking back over this note, I sure hope the foreign characters come through correctly, or it will be complete gibberish. I think I recall that you have a copy of _In Their Words ... Russian_, Michelle. If so, the info on pages 23-27 tries to make sense of all this. But the only way to get a really good grip on it is to learn the importance of palatalized consonants in the Slavic languages, and then become familiar with how Polish and Russian express them in their alphabets. Not exactly light reading! Fred Hoffman

Hi Joe, Thank you very much for your help. I'll have to pay close attention to those words relating to times. I am very pleased that I got the names right. Lagodka was not at www.herby.com. Lagoda was but the 'k' was so clear that it had to be in there. Sobiestian was a fun one to sound out so I'm glad that was correct. And I don't think I ever would have figured out that phrase at the end! One has to wonder what had happened with the father that delayed the baptism. Thanks again, Michele On 2/2/2011 6:48 PM, Joe Armata wrote: > Hi Michele! Great job, here's the rest: > > The record was made at 6:00 "after noon" (po poludni - after > midnight would be po polunochi). > > Malinowski is right. > > The child was born at 2:00 after noon (po poludni). > > Right, godparents were Sobiestian Lisiewski and Krystyna > Lagodka. > > The phrase at the end is: "The creation of this record was > delayed due to the fault of the father." (Opoznyeno > sosta-vlyeniye sego Akta po prichinye ottsa) > > > Joe > > >> Could someone please help me with this translation of the >> birth record of Florentyna Laske? I have gotten most of >> it but would appreciate it if someone could check the >> names and word in red to see if I got those right. And >> what is the extra phrase is near the end of the record? >> The words I can't find at all have a red line above them >> at this link: >> >> http://picasaweb.google.com/mgardenerm/BirthRecordOfFlorentynaLaske1872?authkey=Gv1sRgCKfRiPCI-Pa71wE#5569153254440001570 >> >> Thanks, >> >> Michele >> body of the message > ********************************* > Need to contact the list manager? Write to Marie at [email protected] > ---------------------------------- > Discussion of Polish food, culture, and customs are welcome on the list as long as the discussion stays pertinent to the topic of this list: researching our Polish roots. > ---------------------------------- > Browse the list's archives here: > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=poland-roots > Search the list's archives here: > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/search?aop=1 > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thanks for your responses to my question. I will have to determine when my family was there to find out what their reason for being there.

Hi Michele! Great job, here's the rest: The record was made at 6:00 "after noon" (po poludni - after midnight would be po polunochi). Malinowski is right. The child was born at 2:00 after noon (po poludni). Right, godparents were Sobiestian Lisiewski and Krystyna Lagodka. The phrase at the end is: "The creation of this record was delayed due to the fault of the father." (Opoznyeno sosta-vlyeniye sego Akta po prichinye ottsa) Joe > Could someone please help me with this translation of the > birth record of Florentyna Laske? I have gotten most of > it but would appreciate it if someone could check the > names and word in red to see if I got those right. And > what is the extra phrase is near the end of the record? > The words I can't find at all have a red line above them > at this link: > > http://picasaweb.google.com/mgardenerm/BirthRecordOfFlorentynaLaske1872?authkey=Gv1sRgCKfRiPCI-Pa71wE#5569153254440001570 > > Thanks, > > Michele > body of the message

My dad's name was Marion and he always signed his name as Maryan. I always thought that this was a male version of Mary. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roman" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 5:18 PM Subject: Re: [POLAND] The names Marian and Marianna > Lindy asked that I clarify a few items... and it may be a wise thing to > do here since one can easily get confused with these names. > > With regard to origins... > > Marian (male) and Marianna (female, also Mariana) have Latin origins and > designate someone belonging to Mariusz or that family or to Mars (the > Roman god of War). The Latin form for Mariusz is Marius (as in Gajus > Marius). > > In particular, these names are not Polish equivalents of the English > name Maryann, a combinational form of Mary Ann, nor do they originate > from the name Mary (which has Hebrew origins). > > With regard to grammar... > > The Polish Masculine Genitive Singular case endings are -a and -u. A > noun stem ending in -n will almost always form the genitive case by > attaching the ending -a. This means that the Genitive Case for the male > name Marian is Mariana (not Marianna). > > The Female Genitive Case of Marianna is Marianny. > > Hope this helps a bit. > > Roman > > On 1/31/2011 2:40 PM, Lindy Kasperski wrote: >> Just to add to this and I trust Roman and others to clarify any mistakes: >> Maryan or Marian is a very common male Polish name that in a different >> grammatical case could show up as Marianna or Maryanna. >> >> My official name is Lindy Marian Kasperski. Please don't ask about >> Lindy, >> but I am a male. However my 1950 birth certificate is Lindy Maryan >> Kasperski. I changed Maryan to Marian after my second visit to Poland in >> 1974 at a Polish folk dance school in Lublin when officials there >> suggested >> my middle name was not correct i.e. Maryan should be Marian. I send this >> email with humorous intention but also to point out that in official >> documents of Poles arriving in Canada before WW2 a female could have her >> name listed as Maria, Marya or Marja and a male Marian, Maryan or >> Marjan. >> Obviously this is nominative case but reflects persons who recorded the >> documents. >> >> Fred Hoffman wrote an article on this sometime back that is interchange >> of >> i j and y. I will track it down or better yet ask Fred to identify it. >> >> >> Lindy Marian Kasperski >> Regina, Sk >> > ********************************* > Need to contact the list manager? Write to Marie at > [email protected] > ---------------------------------- > Discussion of Polish food, culture, and customs are welcome on the list as > long as the discussion stays pertinent to the topic of this list: > researching our Polish roots. > ---------------------------------- > Browse the list's archives here: > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=poland-roots > Search the list's archives here: > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/search?aop=1 > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I know of at least one other salt mine in Poland. It is located in Bochnia and is apparently the oldest salt mine in Poland. It contains a chapel where occasional masses are said. You can google Bochnia Salt Mine. Dorothy On Feb 1, 2011, at 2:37 PM, Debbie Greenlee wrote: Tom, I believe there are several salt mines in Poland. I think I remember a native Pole telling me there was one (with tunnels) under or near the city of Inowrocl~aw. Wieliczka is famous because of the sculptures inside the mine tunnels. There is another well-known salt mine in Bochnia near Krakow. You might try searching the internet for other salt mines. Debbie Thomas McGovern wrote: > A recent post mentioned a salt mine attraction near Krakow? Studies of Poland in the 1815 to WW1 period talk about salt mines along the southern border with Austria. > > Can anyone tell me if there were/are salt mines in the northwest in the area around Lipno? My family lived between Tupadly, Wielgie and Pokrzywnik until they emigrated in the 1890's and in the early 1950's, some Russian representatives came to my uncle's home in New York and required him to sign over ownership of some property we think was a salt mine? > > Tom McGovern ********************************* Need to contact the list manager? Write to Marie at [email protected] ---------------------------------- Discussion of Polish food, culture, and customs are welcome on the list as long as the discussion stays pertinent to the topic of this list: researching our Polish roots. ---------------------------------- Browse the list's archives here: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=poland-roots Search the list's archives here: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/search?aop=1 ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Could someone please help me with this translation of the birth record of Florentyna Laske? I have gotten most of it but would appreciate it if someone could check the names and word in red to see if I got those right. And what is the extra phrase is near the end of the record? The words I can't find at all have a red line above them at this link: http://picasaweb.google.com/mgardenerm/BirthRecordOfFlorentynaLaske1872?authkey=Gv1sRgCKfRiPCI-Pa71wE#5569153254440001570 Thanks, Michele

Yes, I found this info on the Bochnia site plus two others but they're all in the south. I just raised the question because of what we assumed what the family property may have been that the Russians/USSR wanted. Thanks everyone. Tom McGovern -------------------------------------------------- From: "D Petraitis" <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, February 02, 2011 11:19 AM To: <[email protected]> Subject: Re: [POLAND] Salt mines in Poland > I know of at least one other salt mine in Poland. It is located in > Bochnia and is apparently the oldest salt mine in Poland. It contains a > chapel where occasional masses are said. You can google Bochnia Salt > Mine. > Dorothy > > On Feb 1, 2011, at 2:37 PM, Debbie Greenlee wrote: > > Tom, > > I believe there are several salt mines in Poland. I think I remember a > native Pole telling me there was one (with tunnels) under or near > the city of Inowrocl~aw. > > Wieliczka is famous because of the sculptures inside the mine tunnels. > > There is another well-known salt mine in Bochnia near Krakow. > > You might try searching the internet for other salt mines. > > Debbie > > Thomas McGovern wrote: >> A recent post mentioned a salt mine attraction near Krakow? Studies of >> Poland in the 1815 to WW1 period talk about salt mines along the southern >> border with Austria. >> >> Can anyone tell me if there were/are salt mines in the northwest in the >> area around Lipno? My family lived between Tupadly, Wielgie and >> Pokrzywnik until they emigrated in the 1890's and in the early 1950's, >> some Russian representatives came to my uncle's home in New York and >> required him to sign over ownership of some property we think was a salt >> mine? >> >> Tom McGovern > ********************************* > Need to contact the list manager? Write to Marie at > [email protected] > ---------------------------------- > Discussion of Polish food, culture, and customs are welcome on the list as > long as the discussion stays pertinent to the topic of this list: > researching our Polish roots. > ---------------------------------- > Browse the list's archives here: > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=poland-roots > Search the list's archives here: > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/search?aop=1 > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ********************************* > Need to contact the list manager? Write to Marie at > [email protected] > ---------------------------------- > Discussion of Polish food, culture, and customs are welcome on the list as > long as the discussion stays pertinent to the topic of this list: > researching our Polish roots. > ---------------------------------- > Browse the list's archives here: > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=poland-roots > Search the list's archives here: > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/search?aop=1 > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Debbie, You wrote, " In Poland it was and is fairly easy to check whose someone parents were. The baptismal records are right there in the same parish as the marriage. In the U.S. often people didn't/don't marry in the same church as their baptism." That's what puzzles me.  My great-grandmother was Weronika Grzesiak, and her parents were Jozef Grzesiak and Maryanna Krawczynska.  The records from Weronika's home parish are available from the LDS.  I've got Weronika's  1876 baptismal record, her parents' 1865 marriage record, and I was able to trace the family tree back a few  more generations on the Grzesiak line.  However, I was unable to find baptismal records for any of Weronika's  siblings, born abt.  1867, 1874, and 1882 .  Unfortunately, two of those baptisms (1867 and 1882) would fall into the LDS records gap for that parish.   (R ecords go from 1808 -1865 and from 1868-1879.)  But that 1874 baptism should have been in there.  One possible explanation is that, according to her marriage record,  Maryanna was from another village (I'm thinking Cienin Koscielny, but I'm going from memory here).  It did not state specifically that the marriage banns were read in another parish, but the complete absence of any Krawczynskis in the parish records I already searched, suggests that Maryanna's village must have been in a different parish.  I haven't had a chance to check the records for Cienin Koscielny yet, but I wonder if Maryanna and Jozef moved back to her parish at some point after Weronika was born, and that's why I can't find Maryanna's death record, any records at all for the Krawczynski family, and that 1874 birth record.  What do you think? Julie ---- Original Message ----- From: "Debbie Greenlee" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Tuesday, February 1, 2011 11:03:36 AM Subject: Re: [POLAND] POLAND-ROOTS Digest, -- 3 Mariannas Julie, You wrote: "I'm thinking that they "made one up" when they needed to put something down for their own marriage records, unbelievable as that may sound from our modern perspective." Keep in mind that what happened in the U.S. is not necessarily what happened in Poland. In Poland it was and is fairly easy to check whose someone parents were. The baptismal records are right there in the same parish as the marriage. In the U.S. often people didn't/don't marry in the same church as their baptism. Debbie [email protected] wrote: > > Hi, Karen, >> > I haven't been following this thread, but I did happen to see your message, and it struck me as being similar to a situation in my own family.  Please post to the list (or me, privately) if you are eventually able to obtain documentation for all three of those marriages.  My g-g-grandfather was supposedly married 3 times, according to his children's (US) marriage records -- to Maryanna Krawczynska, Anna Nowacka, and Marya Cebulska.  I have searched through the records from their home parish in Poland (courtesy of the LDS FHC) and have only been able to document the first marriage, to Maryanna Krawczynska.  I have been unable to locate a death record for her, or records for any of the subsequent marriages that should have taken place.   > > > > Grandma has always insisted that "people didn't talk about that stuff back then" and I've uncovered a lot of evidence to support her assertion.  I'm beginning to wonder if there was only one marriage, to Marianna Krawczynska, and my g-grandmother's siblings simply never knew their mother's name.  I'm thinking that they "made one up" when they needed to put something down for their own marriage records, unbelievable as that may sound from our modern perspective.  I've seen this before in at least one other old marriage record (from the US), for which the person put down "unknown" for mother's maiden name.  I'd be interested to know if others on the list have had similar experiences.  I haven't given up searching for those other marriage and death records, but since they aren't in the batch of records that they should be in, I'm a little perplexed.   > Julie > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Karen Carpenter" <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 9:27:55 PM > Subject: Re: [POLAND] POLAND-ROOTS Digest, -- 3 Mariannas > > Hi, Bronwyn, > I think Debbie answered my query. I have the possibility of my gggrandfather > being married twice before Marianna Ulatowska. I am searching to verify > marriage and death records.  All three of the wives' first name was > Marianna: Sierecki, Radeski, and now Ulatowska. > Thanks. > Karen > >> ********************************* Need to contact the list manager?  Write to Marie at [email protected] ---------------------------------- Discussion of Polish food, culture, and customs are welcome on the list as long as the discussion stays pertinent to the topic of this list: researching our Polish roots. ---------------------------------- Browse the list's archives here: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=poland-roots Search the list's archives here: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/search?aop=1 ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Debbie, I didn't infer anything sinister -- I just assumed that people were too busy working hard to make a living and it didn't matter to people the way it does to us now.  I always thought it odd that my grandfather did not know his mother's birthday, or her father's given name, but that was just how it was.  That was what led me to believe, given the difficulty in finding these other marriage records, that maybe there really was only one wife, and the younger kids just never knew her name.   I believe Grandma said her grandmother died shortly after the youngest child was born, so it wouldn't be unreasonable to think that perhaps the youngest child would have given her step-mother's name in place of her biological mother's name.  Finding some additional marriage, death, or even birth records (for great-grandma's siblings) would be nice to help clarify this.  Julie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Debbie Greenlee" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Sent: Tuesday, February 1, 2011 10:53:36 AM Subject: [POLAND] Multiple Marriages  thread was  3 Mariannas Julie, A man would marry more than once in Poland usually because the mother of his children died and he needed someone to take care of them. Multiple marriages in Poland were common (prior to modern medicine). It was not all that important to people who their birth mother was - they were taken care of and that's what was important. I don't think your grandmother meant anything sinister when said people didn't talk about things like that. I think she just meant the question never came up. Debbie [email protected] wrote: > > Hi, Karen, > I haven't been following this thread, but I did happen to see your   message, and it struck me as being similar to a situation in my own   family.  Please post to the list (or me, privately) if you are   eventually able to obtain documentation for all three of those   marriages.  My g-g-grandfather was supposedly married 3 times,   according to his children's (US) marriage records -- to Maryanna Krawczynska, Anna Nowacka, and Marya Cebulska.  I have searched through the records from their home parish in Poland (courtesy of   the LDS FHC) and have only been able to document the first marriage,   to Maryanna Krawczynska.  I have been unable to locate a death record for her, or records for any of the subsequent marriages that   should have taken place. > Grandma has always insisted that "people didn't talk about that stuff back then" and I've uncovered a lot of evidence to support her assertion.  I'm beginning to wonder if there was only one   marriage, to Marianna Krawczynska, and my g-grandmother's siblings   simply never knew their mother's name.  I'm thinking that they   "made one up" when they needed to put something down for their own   marriage records, unbelievable as that may sound from our modern perspective.  I've seen this before in at least one other old   marriage record (from the US), for which the person put down   "unknown" for mother's maiden name.  I'd be interested to know if   others on the list have had similar experiences.  I haven't given   up searching for those other marriage and death records, but since   they aren't in the batch of records that they should be in, I'm a   little perplexed. > Julie > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Karen Carpenter" <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 9:27:55 PM > Subject: Re: [POLAND] POLAND-ROOTS Digest, -- 3 Mariannas > > Hi, Bronwyn, > I think Debbie answered my query. I have the possibility of my gggrandfather being married twice before Marianna Ulatowska. I am searching to verify marriage and death records.  All three of the wives' first name was Marianna: Sierecki, Radeski, and now Ulatowska. > Thanks. > Karen > > >> On Sun, Jan 30, 2011 at 2:12 AM, Karen Carpenter   <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >>> Oh, boy! That means three -- all named Marianna! >>> Thanks, Debbie. >>> Karen ********************************* Need to contact the list manager?  Write to Marie at [email protected] ---------------------------------- Discussion of Polish food, culture, and customs are welcome on the list as long as the discussion stays pertinent to the topic of this list: researching our Polish roots. ---------------------------------- Browse the list's archives here: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=poland-roots Search the list's archives here: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/search?aop=1 ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Tom, I believe there are several salt mines in Poland. I think I remember a native Pole telling me there was one (with tunnels) under or near the city of Inowrocl~aw. Wieliczka is famous because of the sculptures inside the mine tunnels. There is another well-known salt mine in Bochnia near Krakow. You might try searching the internet for other salt mines. Debbie Thomas McGovern wrote: > A recent post mentioned a salt mine attraction near Krakow? Studies of Poland in the 1815 to WW1 period talk about salt mines along the southern border with Austria. > > Can anyone tell me if there were/are salt mines in the northwest in the area around Lipno? My family lived between Tupadly, Wielgie and Pokrzywnik until they emigrated in the 1890's and in the early 1950's, some Russian representatives came to my uncle's home in New York and required him to sign over ownership of some property we think was a salt mine? > > Tom McGovern

Julie, If I were you I would look at the parish records for Cienin Koscielny which was in the diocese of Wl~oc~lawek to see what's there. It is entirely possible that Marianna Krawczyn~ska and Jo~zef Grzesiak did move back and forth from her home village. (good guess on your part) Also, it is possible that the birth records are at the civil archives in Wl~ocl~awek especially since the time period you're interested in was at a time when records were written in Russian Cyrillic. You should look for civil and church records for both of your g.g.grandparents. BTW there seems to be a "too" long gap between the child born in 1867 and the one born in 1874. I'd say at least two children were probably born within that time. But this also could have been the time when one mother/wife died and Jo~zef Grzesiak found another wife. BTW In which parish did you find the marriage record for Jo~zef Grzesiak and Marianna Krawczyn~ska? Debbie [email protected] wrote: > > Debbie, > > > > You wrote, " In Poland it was and is fairly easy to check whose someone parents were. The baptismal records are right there in the same parish as the marriage. In the U.S. often people didn't/don't marry in the same church as their baptism." > > That's what puzzles me. My great-grandmother was Weronika Grzesiak, and her parents were Jozef Grzesiak and Maryanna Krawczynska. The records from Weronika's home parish are available from the LDS. I've got Weronika's 1876 baptismal record, her parents' 1865 marriage record, and I was able to trace the family tree back a few more generations on the Grzesiak line. However, I was unable to find baptismal records for any of Weronika's siblings, born abt. 1867, 1874, and 1882 . Unfortunately, two of those baptisms (1867 and 1882) would fall into the LDS records gap for that parish. (R ecords go from 1808 -1865 and from 1868-1879.) But that 1874 baptism should have been in there. > > > > One possible explanation is that, according to her marriage record, Maryanna was from another village (I'm thinking Cienin Koscielny, but I'm going from memory here). It did not state specifically that the marriage banns were read in another parish, but the complete absence of any Krawczynskis in the parish records I already searched, suggests that Maryanna's village must have been in a different parish. I haven't had a chance to check the records for Cienin Koscielny yet, but I wonder if Maryanna and Jozef moved back to her parish at some point after Weronika was born, and that's why I can't find Maryanna's death record, any records at all for the Krawczynski family, and that 1874 birth record. What do you think? > > > > Julie > > > > ---- Original Message ----- > From: "Debbie Greenlee" <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Sent: Tuesday, February 1, 2011 11:03:36 AM > Subject: Re: [POLAND] POLAND-ROOTS Digest, -- 3 Mariannas > > Julie, > > You wrote: "I'm thinking that they "made one up" when they needed to > put something down for their own marriage records, unbelievable as > that may sound from our modern perspective." > > Keep in mind that what happened in the U.S. is not necessarily what > happened in Poland. In Poland it was and is fairly easy to check whose > someone parents were. The baptismal records are right there in the > same parish as the marriage. In the U.S. often people didn't/don't > marry in the same church as their baptism. > > Debbie > > [email protected] wrote: >> Hi, Karen, >> I haven't been following this thread, but I did happen to see your message, and it struck me as being similar to a situation in my own family. Please post to the list (or me, privately) if you are eventually able to obtain documentation for all three of those marriages. My g-g-grandfather was supposedly married 3 times, according to his children's (US) marriage records -- to Maryanna Krawczynska, Anna Nowacka, and Marya Cebulska. I have searched through the records from their home parish in Poland (courtesy of the LDS FHC) and have only been able to document the first marriage, to Maryanna Krawczynska. I have been unable to locate a death record for her, or records for any of the subsequent marriages that should have taken place. >> >> >> >> Grandma has always insisted that "people didn't talk about that stuff back then" and I've uncovered a lot of evidence to support her assertion. I'm beginning to wonder if there was only one marriage, to Marianna Krawczynska, and my g-grandmother's siblings simply never knew their mother's name. I'm thinking that they "made one up" when they needed to put something down for their own marriage records, unbelievable as that may sound from our modern perspective. I've seen this before in at least one other old marriage record (from the US), for which the person put down "unknown" for mother's maiden name. I'd be interested to know if others on the list have had similar experiences. I haven't given up searching for those other marriage and death records, but since they aren't in the batch of records that they should be in, I'm a little perplexed. > >> Julie >> >>

Ella, Thanks for that background. I had heard something about the name Maria but could not remember the detail! In many of my 1800s records Mariannas turn into Marias over time - although I have to confess that these are Evangelical rather than Roman Catholic records. Maybe a similar idea applied to both? Bronwyn. On Tue, Feb 1, 2011 at 1:58 PM, singmore <[email protected]> wrote: > Adding to Roman's excellent explanation. Marianna (female name) was > extremely popular in pre-WWI Poland due to the fact that the church frowned > on anybody who wanted to name their girl Maria. Reasoning being that Maria > was the name of the Mother of God and no mortal being should bear that name. > So people would put Marianna (as sounding somewhat similar) on the church > record but use Maria at home anyway. And while the name Maria has been since > de-throned (so to speak) and has been widely used, you will not find a Pole > named Jesus (as opposed to Italy and Spain for example). > > Ella > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto: > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Roman > Sent: Monday, January 31, 2011 5:19 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [POLAND] The names Marian and Marianna > > Lindy asked that I clarify a few items... and it may be a wise thing to > do here since one can easily get confused with these names. > > With regard to origins... > > Marian (male) and Marianna (female, also Mariana) have Latin origins and > designate someone belonging to Mariusz or that family or to Mars (the > Roman god of War). The Latin form for Mariusz is Marius (as in Gajus > Marius). > > In particular, these names are not Polish equivalents of the English > name Maryann, a combinational form of Mary Ann, nor do they originate > from the name Mary (which has Hebrew origins). > > With regard to grammar... > > The Polish Masculine Genitive Singular case endings are -a and -u. A > noun stem ending in -n will almost always form the genitive case by > attaching the ending -a. This means that the Genitive Case for the male > name Marian is Mariana (not Marianna). > > The Female Genitive Case of Marianna is Marianny. > > Hope this helps a bit. > > Roman >