I have looked everywhere I can think of to try to figure out what this time expression actually is and what it means. I read it as "o godzinie w połdopią , tej z południa". Does anyone know what the word that looks like połdopią is? And what does "tej z południa" mean? This from noon? I would really appreciate some help on this one. I've posted the image at the link below. This phrase starts near the end of the second line. https://picasaweb.google.com/mgardenerm/KarolLeonardKonarskiBaptism?authkey=Gv1sRgCOSAsMvZjJyF1wE#5575816574360571026 Thanks, Michele

I am looking for a way to find the catholic parish associated with a town. I have just sort of confirmed that my grandfather came from Rospudny, Suwalki. My "Polish Roots" book is not to be found. How can I determine which parish I should be looking for? Irene

Michele, Ella had a typo - the word is "kwadranse". It's possible that the godparents had to travel to Warsaw for the ceremony. Roman On 2/19/2011 3:09 PM, Michele wrote: > Ella, > > Kwardranse works perfectly instead of kwandrase as I thought it was. > Three quarters of an hour after seven makes more sense. And I had > wondered if the delay referred to the time of day or the date, but, as > you say, there is no way to know on that. Both seem to be a long time > to wait for the event. I will change residence to apartment. This > really helps because I have seen that wording in more than one of these > records. This is the first time I've seen the word kumów so I wanted to > ask for clarification, so I appreciate the explanation. > > Thank you for your help, > > Michele >

Roman, Oh, OK. These Warsaw records are giving me one challenge after another. There is an unusual phrase on another one I'm working on too. It does keep it all interesting. Thanks, Michele On 2/19/2011 1:37 PM, Roman wrote: > Michele, > > Ella had a typo - the word is "kwadranse". > > It's possible that the godparents had to travel to Warsaw for the ceremony. > > Roman > > On 2/19/2011 3:09 PM, Michele wrote: >> Ella, >> >> Kwardranse works perfectly instead of kwandrase as I thought it was. >> Three quarters of an hour after seven makes more sense. And I had >> wondered if the delay referred to the time of day or the date, but, as >> you say, there is no way to know on that. Both seem to be a long time >> to wait for the event. I will change residence to apartment. This >> really helps because I have seen that wording in more than one of these >> records. This is the first time I've seen the word kumów so I wanted to >> ask for clarification, so I appreciate the explanation. >> >> Thank you for your help, >> >> Michele >> > ********************************* > Need to contact the list manager? Write to Marie at [email protected] > ---------------------------------- > Discussion of Polish food, culture, and customs are welcome on the list as long as the discussion stays pertinent to the topic of this list: researching our Polish roots. > ---------------------------------- > Browse the list's archives here: > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=poland-roots > Search the list's archives here: > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/search?aop=1 > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I wrote that time incorrectly in my reply. I meant 6:45. Michele On 2/19/2011 1:09 PM, Michele wrote: > Ella, > > Kwardranse works perfectly instead of kwandrase as I thought it was. > Three quarters of an hour after seven makes more sense. And I had > wondered if the delay referred to the time of day or the date, but, as > you say, there is no way to know on that. Both seem to be a long time > to wait for the event. I will change residence to apartment. This > really helps because I have seen that wording in more than one of > these records. This is the first time I've seen the word kumów so I > wanted to ask for clarification, so I appreciate the explanation. > > Thank you for your help, > > Michele > > On 2/19/2011 8:57 AM, singmore wrote: >> Michelle, >> >> 1. Kwadrans = [quarter] = 15min; Kwardranse = plural kwadrans >> "trzy kwadranse na siódmą" = 6:45 [here PM - po południu - as >> mentioned in the document] >> This is a very old form of describing the time - not used any more. >> Today you would say "za kwardans siódma" [quarter to seven] or >> "szósta czterdzieści pięć" [6:45] >> >> 2. w mieszkaniu jego = in his flat [apartment] >> >> 3. Spoznienie Aktu tego nastąpiło z powodu oczekiwania na Kumów. The >> delay of this act [could mean record, action or event] was caused by >> waiting for the godparents. >> >> Kum/Kuma/Kumowie = godfather/godmother/godparents - again very old >> word not used anymore. Typically one would use "rodzice chrześni" or >> "chrześni". >> >> matka chrzestna = godmother >> ojciec chrzestny = godfather >> rodzice chrześni or chrześni = godparents >> >> Unfortunately, it is not clear if the delay referred to the >> christening day (born on June 25th, christened on Jul 13th) or to the >> writing of the record itself (6:45PM is kind of late hour for such >> ceremony). >> >> >> Ella >> >> >> >> ********************************* >> Need to contact the list manager? Write to Marie at >> [email protected] >> ---------------------------------- >> Discussion of Polish food, culture, and customs are welcome on the >> list as long as the discussion stays pertinent to the topic of this >> list: researching our Polish roots. >> ---------------------------------- >> Browse the list's archives here: >> http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=poland-roots >> Search the list's archives here: >> http://archiver.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/search?aop=1 >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Ella, Kwardranse works perfectly instead of kwandrase as I thought it was. Three quarters of an hour after seven makes more sense. And I had wondered if the delay referred to the time of day or the date, but, as you say, there is no way to know on that. Both seem to be a long time to wait for the event. I will change residence to apartment. This really helps because I have seen that wording in more than one of these records. This is the first time I've seen the word kumów so I wanted to ask for clarification, so I appreciate the explanation. Thank you for your help, Michele On 2/19/2011 8:57 AM, singmore wrote: > Michelle, > > 1. Kwadrans = [quarter] = 15min; Kwardranse = plural kwadrans > "trzy kwadranse na siódmą" = 6:45 [here PM - po południu - as mentioned in the document] > This is a very old form of describing the time - not used any more. Today you would say "za kwardans siódma" [quarter to seven] or "szósta czterdzieści pięć" [6:45] > > 2. w mieszkaniu jego = in his flat [apartment] > > 3. Spoznienie Aktu tego nastąpiło z powodu oczekiwania na Kumów. The delay of this act [could mean record, action or event] was caused by waiting for the godparents. > > Kum/Kuma/Kumowie = godfather/godmother/godparents - again very old word not used anymore. Typically one would use "rodzice chrześni" or "chrześni". > > matka chrzestna = godmother > ojciec chrzestny = godfather > rodzice chrześni or chrześni = godparents > > Unfortunately, it is not clear if the delay referred to the christening day (born on June 25th, christened on Jul 13th) or to the writing of the record itself (6:45PM is kind of late hour for such ceremony). > > > Ella > > > > ********************************* > Need to contact the list manager? Write to Marie at [email protected] > ---------------------------------- > Discussion of Polish food, culture, and customs are welcome on the list as long as the discussion stays pertinent to the topic of this list: researching our Polish roots. > ---------------------------------- > Browse the list's archives here: > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=poland-roots > Search the list's archives here: > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/search?aop=1 > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Michelle, 1. Kwadrans = [quarter] = 15min; Kwardranse = plural kwadrans "trzy kwadranse na siódmą" = 6:45 [here PM - po południu - as mentioned in the document] This is a very old form of describing the time - not used any more. Today you would say "za kwardans siódma" [quarter to seven] or "szósta czterdzieści pięć" [6:45] 2. w mieszkaniu jego = in his flat [apartment] 3. Spoznienie Aktu tego nastąpiło z powodu oczekiwania na Kumów. The delay of this act [could mean record, action or event] was caused by waiting for the godparents. Kum/Kuma/Kumowie = godfather/godmother/godparents - again very old word not used anymore. Typically one would use "rodzice chrześni" or "chrześni". matka chrzestna = godmother ojciec chrzestny = godfather rodzice chrześni or chrześni = godparents Unfortunately, it is not clear if the delay referred to the christening day (born on June 25th, christened on Jul 13th) or to the writing of the record itself (6:45PM is kind of late hour for such ceremony). Ella

I would really appreciate some help with this birth record of Aloizy Jan Konarskifrom a Warsaw parish. I have put on better glasses this time but since some of the wording is different than I have seen before, I still have a few questions relating to the translation. I have listed these questions below. I have posted the image at the link below and the transcription and translation below my questions. Thanks, Michele https://picasaweb.google.com/mgardenerm/AloizyJanKonarskiBirthRecord?authkey=Gv1sRgCNDM96CT87-AgAE#5575125354476367010 1. o godzinie trzy kwandranse (kwadrase)na siodmą This record has this word spelled kwandrase - I'm guessing it should be kwadrase. Does this say that it was three quarters of an hour before or after seven o'clock? 2. w mieszkania jego- in his apartment or in his residence? 3. Spoznienie Aktu tego nastąpiło z powodu oczekiwania na Kumów. The delay of this ceremony/record is due to waiting for the godfather. Does this mean that the creation of this record was delayed due to waiting for the godfather, as in a previous Cyrillic record that was worded differently, or does it mean that the ceremony was delayed due to waiting for the godfather? I understand that the result is the same but I am trying to prepare for this wording in the future. 4. Niniejszy Akt po odczytania onego podpisanym został przez Nas w raz z ojcem i obecnym Świadkami. This document, after being read to those above, was signed by Us, with his father and witnesses present. Is this correct? Birth record of Aloizy Jan Konarski 1851 Parafja Św. Jana Chrzciciela, Warszawa 449. Działo się w Warszawie dnia trzynastego Miesiąca Lipca tysiąc ośmset pięcdziesiąt pierwszego roku o godzinie trzy kwandranse na siodmą wieczorem. Stawił się Ignacy Konarski majster krawiecki liczący lat trzydzieści ośm w Warszawie w Rynku Starego Miasto pod liczby sześćdziesiąt pierwszą zamieszkały, w obecności z Stanisławą Płodowskiego czeladnika krawieckiego, tudzież Stanisława Śląszkiewicza majstra stolarskiego, pełnoletnich w Warszawie zamieszkałych, i okazał Nam Dziecię płci męzkiej urodzone tu w Warszawie w mieszkania jego na dnia dwudziestym piątym Czerwca roku bieżącego, o godzinie szóstej z rana, z jego Małżonki Julii z Trzebińskich, lat dwadzieśćia siedm mającej. Dziecięciu temu na Chrzcie Świętym odbytym w dniu dzisiejszym nadane zostały imiona Aloizy Jan a Rodzicami jego Chrzestnemi byli wyż wspomniach Stanisław Płodowski z Katarzyna Śląszkiewicz, iz Stanisław Ślaszkiewicz z Sabiną Petlińska. Spoznienie Aktu tego nastąpiło z powodu oczekiwania na Kumów. Niniejszy Akt po odczytania onego podpisanym został przez Nas w raz z ojcem i obecnym Świadkami. X. Szczepan Łański W. M. W. Po Proboszcza Ignacy Konarski – Ojciec. Stanisław Płodowski Stanisław Ślaszkiewicz 449. It happened in Warsaw on the 13th day of the month of July, 1851, at three quarters of ??? the seventh hour in the evening. He presented himself, Ignacy Konarski, master tailor, 38 years of age, residing in Warsaw at Rynek Starego Miasto (Old Town Square) at number 61, in the presence of Stanisław Płodowski, apprentice tailor, as well as Stanisław Ślaszkiewicz, master carpenter, of age, residing in Warsaw, and showed us a child of the male gender born here in Warsaw at his residence on the 25th day of June of the current year, at 6:00 in the morning, to his wife Julia née Trzebiński, 27 years of age. This child, at holy baptism which took place today, was given the name Aloizy Jan, and his godparents were the above-mentioned Stanisław Płodowski and Katarzyna Śląszkiewicz, and Stanisław Ślaszkiewicz and Sabina Petlińska. The delay of this ceremony/record is due to waiting for the godfather. This document, after being read to those above, was signed by Us, with his father and witnesses present. Rev. Szczepan Łanski W. M. W. for the Pastor Ignacy Konarski - Father Stanisław Płodowski Stanisław Ślaszkiewicz

Vera, It seems that your reference contains no image. Roman On 2/17/2011 3:07 PM, Vera Miller wrote: > > Hello all, > I hope someone can help. I cannot get further in my research in Poland > without knowing the places Pauline Kretzer and Carl Hoffmann were > born. I already had my Austrian-American aunt translate the whole > document. I just need someone to tell me whether she has the town of > Pichanowisc, Poland as the right birthplace of Carl in 1835 and Biala > near Egierz, Poland as the right town of Pauline's birth. > > > > I have posted an image of this document at > [1]http://forumgenealogiczne.pl/viewtopic.php?p=4037#4037. > Thank you in advance. I am very grateful for all the members' help on > this board. > Vera > > References > > 1. http://forumgenealogiczne.pl/viewtopic.php?p=4037#4037

Hello all, I hope someone can help. I cannot get further in my research in Poland without knowing the places Pauline Kretzer and Carl Hoffmann were born. I already had my Austrian-American aunt translate the whole document. I just need someone to tell me whether she has the town of Pichanowisc, Poland as the right birthplace of Carl in 1835 and Biala near Egierz, Poland as the right town of Pauline's birth. I have posted an image of this document at [1]http://forumgenealogiczne.pl/viewtopic.php?p=4037#4037. Thank you in advance. I am very grateful for all the members' help on this board. Vera References 1. http://forumgenealogiczne.pl/viewtopic.php?p=4037#4037

Ella, Thanks for the information. This is all fascinating. It does look like the record is referring to an occupation with Dworski but it is interesting to learn all of the possibilities. Thanks again, Michele On 2/17/2011 7:09 AM, singmore wrote: > Roman, Michelle > > Piwo is a noun - beer > Piwny/Piwna/Piwne is an adjective (masculine/feminine/plural). > > Ulica Piwna [Piwna Street - or Beer Street] is a very old street in Warsaw. And the adjective Piwna (not Piwny) because the word 'ulica' has a feminine gender. The name comes from many, many breweries (and pubs) that used to be there, and probably the whole street reeked of beer - hence an adjective 'piwna'. > > As an interesting addition to the word piwny. 'Piwne oczy' [here 'piwne' because of the plural word oczy - eyes] is used to describe the eyes colour that we know as the hazel eyes. > > Dworski - most likely you guessed correctly - somebody who served (worked) in the manor or on the manor estate but it could also mean a peasant who came from the village owned by a landed gentry. Back then the villages (and towns) belonged either to the aristocracy/nobility, the church, the crown or were free (independent). > > Cheers, > > Ella > > > > ********************************* > Need to contact the list manager? Write to Marie at [email protected] > ---------------------------------- > Discussion of Polish food, culture, and customs are welcome on the list as long as the discussion stays pertinent to the topic of this list: researching our Polish roots. > ---------------------------------- > Browse the list's archives here: > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=poland-roots > Search the list's archives here: > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/search?aop=1 > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I found the following Wikipedia articles (English, Polish) on eye colors quite interesting: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_color > http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolor_oczu Roman On 2/17/2011 9:09 AM, singmore wrote: > Roman, Michelle > > Piwo is a noun - beer Piwny/Piwna/Piwne is an adjective > (masculine/feminine/plural). > > Ulica Piwna [Piwna Street - or Beer Street] is a very old street in > Warsaw. And the adjective Piwna (not Piwny) because the word 'ulica' > has a feminine gender. The name comes from many, many breweries (and > pubs) that used to be there, and probably the whole street reeked of > beer - hence an adjective 'piwna'. > > As an interesting addition to the word piwny. 'Piwne oczy' [here > 'piwne' because of the plural word oczy - eyes] is used to describe > the eyes colour that we know as the hazel eyes. > > Dworski - most likely you guessed correctly - somebody who served > (worked) in the manor or on the manor estate but it could also mean a > peasant who came from the village owned by a landed gentry. Back then > the villages (and towns) belonged either to the aristocracy/nobility, > the church, the crown or were free (independent). > > Cheers, > > Ella >

Roman, Interesting that Poles have so many eye colors or names for eye colors. Piwo/beer and bursztyn/amber were ones I'd never heard of before you and Ella brought it up. Debbie Roman wrote: > I found the following Wikipedia articles (English, Polish) on eye colors > quite interesting: > >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_color >> http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolor_oczu > > Roman > > > On 2/17/2011 9:09 AM, singmore wrote: >> Roman, Michelle >> >> Piwo is a noun - beer Piwny/Piwna/Piwne is an adjective >> (masculine/feminine/plural). >> >> Ulica Piwna [Piwna Street - or Beer Street] is a very old street in >> Warsaw. And the adjective Piwna (not Piwny) because the word 'ulica' >> has a feminine gender. The name comes from many, many breweries (and >> pubs) that used to be there, and probably the whole street reeked of >> beer - hence an adjective 'piwna'. >> >> As an interesting addition to the word piwny. 'Piwne oczy' [here >> 'piwne' because of the plural word oczy - eyes] is used to describe >> the eyes colour that we know as the hazel eyes. >> >> Dworski - most likely you guessed correctly - somebody who served >> (worked) in the manor or on the manor estate but it could also mean a >> peasant who came from the village owned by a landed gentry. Back then >> the villages (and towns) belonged either to the aristocracy/nobility, >> the church, the crown or were free (independent). >> >> Cheers, >> >> Ella >>

Roman, Michelle Piwo is a noun - beer Piwny/Piwna/Piwne is an adjective (masculine/feminine/plural). Ulica Piwna [Piwna Street - or Beer Street] is a very old street in Warsaw. And the adjective Piwna (not Piwny) because the word 'ulica' has a feminine gender. The name comes from many, many breweries (and pubs) that used to be there, and probably the whole street reeked of beer - hence an adjective 'piwna'. As an interesting addition to the word piwny. 'Piwne oczy' [here 'piwne' because of the plural word oczy - eyes] is used to describe the eyes colour that we know as the hazel eyes. Dworski - most likely you guessed correctly - somebody who served (worked) in the manor or on the manor estate but it could also mean a peasant who came from the village owned by a landed gentry. Back then the villages (and towns) belonged either to the aristocracy/nobility, the church, the crown or were free (independent). Cheers, Ella

On 2/16/2011 3:54 PM, Michele wrote: > Roman, > >> There are two issues here. >> >> First, the typical style for naming streets in Poland is to assign >> ownership of the street to some person, event, or other name. Hence we >> see in Warsaw street names such as the following: >> >> Aleja 3 Maja = Avenue of May 3rd (Any significance here?) >> Plac Bankowy = Bank's Place (though Plac has different translations) >> Kanadyjska = Canadian (in the Diplomatic section Saska Kępa) >> Dowcip = Joke (There are exceptions!) >> >> Second, since streets are normally specified as belonging to someone or >> something, the owner must be rendered in the Genitive Case. Polish, >> after all, is a heavily declined language and noun usage must follow >> declension requirements. The ending -a is a Genitive Case ending. >> >> In your case we have the following: >> >> Piwny = beer; Nominative Case - the owner of the street. >> Ulica Piwna = Beer's Street; Genitive Case. >> przy Ulicy Piwnej = Locative Case - required with preposition "przy". > I have come across another example like the ones you wrote above. In a > different record (the next one I'd like to post), the same family lived > on "Rynku Starego Miasto" in the record. On the map, it is Rynek > Starego Miasto and I am reading that to mean Old Town Market Street. > Rynek Starego Miasta = Old Town (market) Square The usage you site above is clearly in a clause beginning with a preposition. Hence, the change in Case. "Starego Miasta" is the Genitive Case of "Stare Miasto" on translates to "of the Old Town" or "Old Town's". In this case, it is not likely a street - but the Central Square. Rynek also means "market" and the connection is that even today you will find lots of bazaars and market activity in the Old Square. > So would it be Piwno Street in the translation of this record? And what > case would that be? You were already given the answer. See the Nominative Case above. Incidentally, the typical word for beer is "piwo". "Piwny" does, however, reside in old dictionaries. "Piwny" is also a (very rare) surname. So this street could have been named for a person. >>> Thanks again for your help, >>> >>> Michele

The first character there is actually a flag, and the word is "dworskiego". It was signed by the priest to show it's legit. The corresponding flag is in the text after "corką Wincentego Trzybińskiego". So the original record as first written omitted Vince's occupation, and it was inserted later, probably when it was read aloud to those present. I take dworski to mean someone who works at the manorhouse, maybe a servant or clerk. Joe > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] [mailto:poland-roots- > [email protected]] On Behalf Of Michele > Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 2:05 PM > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [POLAND] Need help with Polish translation > > Roman, > > Thank you very much for the compliment and the corrections. I got out > of practice during a long spell with no new records and it looks like I > may need to get new glasses too! I should have gotten at least a few > more of these. I appreciate that you got me back on track. I got 'na > dniu' right farther down in the record but the way it was written in > that one spot was puzzling. It was fun to come across so many new > words > (for me) in this record. I didn't know what to do with (Ulicy) > "Piwnej" > so I had done a Google map search for St. John's Cathedral in Warsaw > and > looked at street names in the neighborhood. That is where I found > Piwna > Street. I notice that many of the streets in that area end in the > letter a. Would it be different in the narrative than it is on a map? > Also, I have one other question I forgot to ask. Do you know what the > writing above the priest's name says in the left hand margin? It looks > to me like either powerskiego or pdwerskiego but I can't figure out why > it is there. I have posted just that at this link. The arrow above it > leads to the entire document. > > https://picasaweb.google.com/mgardenerm/KonarskiTrzebinskaMarriageRecor > d?authkey=Gv1sRgCNXo_dSv2N2k7gE#5574362385170679250 > > Thanks again for your help, > > Michele > > > > On 2/16/2011 1:21 AM, Roman wrote: > > Michele, > > > > Overall, you have done a fine job. Look below for line-by-line > comments. > > > > Roman > > > > On 2/15/2011 4:34 PM, Michele wrote: > >> I would really appreciate some help with this marriage record of > Ignacy > >> Konarski and Julianna Trzybińska. The marriage took place in Warsaw > and > >> the records are written differently enough to give me some new > puzzlers. > >> Here are my questions: > >> > >> 1. What is the word that looks like nacmen? (2nd word, 7th line on > image). > >> > >> 2. What does wyż mean in the phrase "pod liczba wyż rzeczona"? > >> > >> 3. On the Warsaw records, I keep finding something that looks like > "po > >> prob" or "po prosob" "p.o. prosob" next to the pastor's name. What > is > >> that and how should it be spelled? > >> > >> Below is my transcription and translation and I posted the image at > the > >> link below. > >> > >> Thanks for any help, > >> > >> Michele > >> > >> > https://picasaweb.google.com/mgardenerm/KonarskiTrzebinskaMarriageRecor > d?authkey=Gv1sRgCNXo_dSv2N2k7gE#5574023078313077314 > >> > >> Marriage record of Ignacy Konarski and Julianna Trzebińska 1844 > >> > >> Działo się w Warszawie, dnia dziewiętnastego miesiąca Listopada, > tysiąc > >> ośmset czterdziestego czwartego Roku, o godzinie piątej z południa. > >> Wiadomo czyniomy, że w obecności swiadków, Ignacego Szklanika, > byłego > > świadków (misspelt in doc) > > > >> Nauczyada, i Stanisława Płodowskiego, Czeladnika Krawieckiego, > obadwoch > > Nauczyciela > > > >> petnoletnich, w Warszawie zamieszkałych, nacmen ? dzisiejszym > zawarte > > pełnoletnich, na dniu dzisiejszym (on this day) > > > >> zostało religiinie i przez nizej podpisanego pobłogostewione > Małżeństwo > > religijnie, niżej, pobłogosławione > > > >> miedzy Ignacym Konarskim młodzienem, czeladnikiem Krawieckim, przy > Ulicy > > między, młodzianem > > > >> Piwnej, pod liczbą dziewięcdziesiąt szóstą, w Parafii Swiątego Jana > > Świętego > > > >> zamieszkałym, urodzonym we Wsi Pankach, Gubernii Kaliskiej, z Pawła > >> Konarskiego dworskiego, i Petronelli z Niepiekłów, małżonków, tamże > >> zamieszkałych, mającym lat trzydzieści dwa a Julianną Trzybińską, > Panną, > > ... dwa, a ... > > > >> corką Wincentego Trzybińskiego, i Katarzyny małżonków, zrodzona w > > zrodzoną (urodzoną) > > > >> Mieście Mszczonowie, Gubernii Mazowieckiej, mającą lat dwudzieścia > dwa, > > dwadzieścia > > > >> przy Rodzicach swoich, pod liczba wyż rzeczona w Parafii Swiątego > Jana, > > liczbą wyż rzeczoną (at the address given above), Świętego > > > >> stale zamieszkała. Małżeństwo to, poprzedzily trzy zapowiedzie, w > > poprzedziły, zapowiedzia > > > >> dniach,trzecim, dziesiątym i siedmnastym Listopada, Roku bieżącego, > w > >> Kościele Parafialnym Warszawskim Swiętego Jana. Tamowanie małżoństwa > nie > > małżeństwa > > > >> zasło Małzonkowie Nowi Oświadczaja, iż nie zawarti umowy > przedslubnej. > > ... zaszło. Mał ... oświadczają ... nie zawarli ... przedślubnej. > > > >> Niniejszy Akt stawającym i Świadkom przeczytany, podpiscmym został > przez > > podpisanym > > > >> Nas, wraz z Zaślubionym i Swiadkomi, Zaślubiona zaś pisać nieumie. > > Świadkami > > > >> Ks. Wincenty Miszkich po prob ? parafii S Jana > > po prob (most likely it is "po proboszcza" = for the pastor) > > > >> Igay (sic) Konarski > >> Ignacy Szklanik > >> Stanisław Słodowski > >> > >> It happened in Warsaw, the 19th day of November, 1844, at 5:00 in > the > >> afternoon. We make it known that in the presence of witnesses, > Ignacy > >> Szklanik, former teacher, and Stanisław Płodowski, apprentice > tailor, > >> both of age, residing in Warsaw, _________ . A religious marriage > was > >> contracted and blessed by the undersigned today between Ignacy > Konarski, > >> young apprentice tailor residing at number 96 Piwna Street in St. > John’s > > the intent here is młodzian = youth (not previously married) > > most likely Piwno Street > > > >> Parish, born in the village of Panki, province of Kalisz, to Pawel > >> Konarski of the court, and Petronela née Niepiekło, married couple, > >> living at the same place, 32 years of age, and Julianna Trzybińska, > >> unmarried woman, daughter of Wincenty and Katarzyna Trzybiński, a > >> married couple, born in the town of Mszczonow, province of > Mazowiecki, > >> 22 years of age, living constantly with her parents, at the > aforesaid > >> number _______ and in St. John’s Parish. This marriage was preceded > by > >> three readings of the banns, on the 3rd, 10th, and 17th of November > of > >> the current year, in St. John’s Parish in Warsaw. No impediments to > the > >> marriage arose. There is no prenuptial agreement. This document was > read > >> to the declarant and witnesses and was signed by Us, whereas the > >> newlyweds and witnesses together cannot write. > >> > >> Rev. Wincenty Miszkich Pastor ? St. John's Parish > >> Igay (sic) (Ignacy) Konarski > >> Ignacy Szklanik > >> Stanisław Słodowski > >> > >> > > ********************************* > > Need to contact the list manager? Write to Marie at Poland-Roots- > [email protected] > > ---------------------------------- > > Discussion of Polish food, culture, and customs are welcome on the > list as long as the discussion stays pertinent to the topic of this > list: researching our Polish roots. > > ---------------------------------- > > Browse the list's archives here: > > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=poland-roots > > Search the list's archives here: > > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/search?aop=1 > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to POLAND-ROOTS- > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in > the subject and the body of the message > ********************************* > Need to contact the list manager? Write to Marie at Poland-Roots- > [email protected] > ---------------------------------- > Discussion of Polish food, culture, and customs are welcome on the list > as long as the discussion stays pertinent to the topic of this list: > researching our Polish roots. > ---------------------------------- > Browse the list's archives here: > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=poland-roots > Search the list's archives here: > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/search?aop=1 > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to POLAND-ROOTS- > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in > the subject and the body of the message

Michele, See below. Roman On 2/16/2011 2:04 PM, Michele wrote: > Roman, > > Thank you very much for the compliment and the corrections. I got out > of practice during a long spell with no new records and it looks like I > may need to get new glasses too! I should have gotten at least a few > more of these. I appreciate that you got me back on track. I got 'na > dniu' right farther down in the record but the way it was written in > that one spot was puzzling. It was fun to come across so many new words > (for me) in this record. I didn't know what to do with (Ulicy) "Piwnej" > so I had done a Google map search for St. John's Cathedral in Warsaw and > looked at street names in the neighborhood. That is where I found Piwna > Street. I notice that many of the streets in that area end in the > letter a. Would it be different in the narrative than it is on a map? There are two issues here. First, the typical style for naming streets in Poland is to assign ownership of the street to some person, event, or other name. Hence we see in Warsaw street names such as the following: Aleja 3 Maja = Avenue of May 3rd (Any significance here?) Plac Bankowy = Bank's Place (though Plac has different translations) Kanadyjska = Canadian (in the Diplomatic section Saska Kępa) Dowcip = Joke (There are exceptions!) Second, since streets are normally specified as belonging to someone or something, the owner must be rendered in the Genitive Case. Polish, after all, is a heavily declined language and noun usage must follow declension requirements. The ending -a is a Genitive Case ending. In your case we have the following: Piwny = beer; Nominative Case - the owner of the street. Ulica Piwna = Beer's Street; Genitive Case. przy Ulicy Piwnej = Locative Case - required with preposition "przy". > Also, I have one other question I forgot to ask. Do you know what the > writing above the priest's name says in the left hand margin? It looks > to me like either powerskiego or pdwerskiego but I can't figure out why > it is there. The answer is "Yes". Let me give you a hint: that's not a "p". The marginal entry is "^ dworskiego". Find the corresponding caret. I have posted just that at this link. The arrow above it > leads to the entire document. > > https://picasaweb.google.com/mgardenerm/KonarskiTrzebinskaMarriageRecord?authkey=Gv1sRgCNXo_dSv2N2k7gE#5574362385170679250 > > Thanks again for your help, > > Michele

Roman, On 2/16/2011 2:12 PM, Roman wrote: > > On 2/16/2011 3:54 PM, Michele wrote: >> Roman, >> >>> There are two issues here. >>> >>> First, the typical style for naming streets in Poland is to assign >>> ownership of the street to some person, event, or other name. Hence we >>> see in Warsaw street names such as the following: >>> >>> Aleja 3 Maja = Avenue of May 3rd (Any significance here?) >>> Plac Bankowy = Bank's Place (though Plac has different translations) >>> Kanadyjska = Canadian (in the Diplomatic section Saska Kępa) >>> Dowcip = Joke (There are exceptions!) >>> >>> Second, since streets are normally specified as belonging to someone or >>> something, the owner must be rendered in the Genitive Case. Polish, >>> after all, is a heavily declined language and noun usage must follow >>> declension requirements. The ending -a is a Genitive Case ending. >>> >>> In your case we have the following: >>> >>> Piwny = beer; Nominative Case - the owner of the street. >>> Ulica Piwna = Beer's Street; Genitive Case. >>> przy Ulicy Piwnej = Locative Case - required with preposition "przy". >> I have come across another example like the ones you wrote above. In a >> different record (the next one I'd like to post), the same family lived >> on "Rynku Starego Miasto" in the record. On the map, it is Rynek >> Starego Miasto and I am reading that to mean Old Town Market Street. >> > Rynek Starego Miasta = Old Town (market) Square > > The usage you site above is clearly in a clause beginning with a > preposition. Hence, the change in Case. "Starego Miasta" is the Genitive > Case of "Stare Miasto" on translates to "of the Old Town" or "Old Town's". > > In this case, it is not likely a street - but the Central Square. Rynek > also means "market" and the connection is that even today you will find > lots of bazaars and market activity in the Old Square. Interesting. I'll get that one fixed. I like the images that come with it being "Old Town Square." >> So would it be Piwno Street in the translation of this record? And what >> case would that be? > You were already given the answer. See the Nominative Case above. > > Incidentally, the typical word for beer is "piwo". "Piwny" does, > however, reside in old dictionaries. "Piwny" is also a (very rare) > surname. So this street could have been named for a person. That is where my confusion was - Piwny vs. Piwno. I'll fix it. Thanks for your help. Michele > >>>> Thanks again for your help, >>>> >>>> Michele > ********************************* > Need to contact the list manager? Write to Marie at [email protected] > ---------------------------------- > Discussion of Polish food, culture, and customs are welcome on the list as long as the discussion stays pertinent to the topic of this list: researching our Polish roots. > ---------------------------------- > Browse the list's archives here: > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=poland-roots > Search the list's archives here: > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/search?aop=1 > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Joe, I get it now. So I will put Vince's occupation into the record as the priest intended. And thank you for the definition. Dworski is another one of my new vocabulary words from these records. When I looked it up, court was one of the meanings but so were manor and yard so I just picked the wrong one. Thanks for your help, Michele On 2/16/2011 1:18 PM, Armata, Joseph R wrote: > The first character there is actually a flag, and the word is "dworskiego". It was signed by the priest to show it's legit. The corresponding flag is in the text after "corką Wincentego Trzybińskiego". So the original record as first written omitted Vince's occupation, and it was inserted later, probably when it was read aloud to those present. I take dworski to mean someone who works at the manorhouse, maybe a servant or clerk. > > Joe > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: [email protected] [mailto:poland-roots- >> [email protected]] On Behalf Of Michele >> Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2011 2:05 PM >> To: [email protected] >> Subject: Re: [POLAND] Need help with Polish translation >> >> Roman, >> >> Thank you very much for the compliment and the corrections. I got out >> of practice during a long spell with no new records and it looks like I >> may need to get new glasses too! I should have gotten at least a few >> more of these. I appreciate that you got me back on track. I got 'na >> dniu' right farther down in the record but the way it was written in >> that one spot was puzzling. It was fun to come across so many new >> words >> (for me) in this record. I didn't know what to do with (Ulicy) >> "Piwnej" >> so I had done a Google map search for St. John's Cathedral in Warsaw >> and >> looked at street names in the neighborhood. That is where I found >> Piwna >> Street. I notice that many of the streets in that area end in the >> letter a. Would it be different in the narrative than it is on a map? >> Also, I have one other question I forgot to ask. Do you know what the >> writing above the priest's name says in the left hand margin? It looks >> to me like either powerskiego or pdwerskiego but I can't figure out why >> it is there. I have posted just that at this link. The arrow above it >> leads to the entire document. >> >> https://picasaweb.google.com/mgardenerm/KonarskiTrzebinskaMarriageRecor >> d?authkey=Gv1sRgCNXo_dSv2N2k7gE#5574362385170679250 >> >> Thanks again for your help, >> >> Michele >> >> >> >> On 2/16/2011 1:21 AM, Roman wrote: >>> Michele, >>> >>> Overall, you have done a fine job. Look below for line-by-line >> comments. >>> Roman >>> >>> On 2/15/2011 4:34 PM, Michele wrote: >>>> I would really appreciate some help with this marriage record of >> Ignacy >>>> Konarski and Julianna Trzybińska. The marriage took place in Warsaw >> and >>>> the records are written differently enough to give me some new >> puzzlers. >>>> Here are my questions: >>>> >>>> 1. What is the word that looks like nacmen? (2nd word, 7th line on >> image). >>>> 2. What does wyż mean in the phrase "pod liczba wyż rzeczona"? >>>> >>>> 3. On the Warsaw records, I keep finding something that looks like >> "po >>>> prob" or "po prosob" "p.o. prosob" next to the pastor's name. What >> is >>>> that and how should it be spelled? >>>> >>>> Below is my transcription and translation and I posted the image at >> the >>>> link below. >>>> >>>> Thanks for any help, >>>> >>>> Michele >>>> >>>> >> https://picasaweb.google.com/mgardenerm/KonarskiTrzebinskaMarriageRecor >> d?authkey=Gv1sRgCNXo_dSv2N2k7gE#5574023078313077314 >>>> Marriage record of Ignacy Konarski and Julianna Trzebińska 1844 >>>> >>>> Działo się w Warszawie, dnia dziewiętnastego miesiąca Listopada, >> tysiąc >>>> ośmset czterdziestego czwartego Roku, o godzinie piątej z południa. >>>> Wiadomo czyniomy, że w obecności swiadków, Ignacego Szklanika, >> byłego >>> świadków (misspelt in doc) >>> >>>> Nauczyada, i Stanisława Płodowskiego, Czeladnika Krawieckiego, >> obadwoch >>> Nauczyciela >>> >>>> petnoletnich, w Warszawie zamieszkałych, nacmen ? dzisiejszym >> zawarte >>> pełnoletnich, na dniu dzisiejszym (on this day) >>> >>>> zostało religiinie i przez nizej podpisanego pobłogostewione >> Małżeństwo >>> religijnie, niżej, pobłogosławione >>> >>>> miedzy Ignacym Konarskim młodzienem, czeladnikiem Krawieckim, przy >> Ulicy >>> między, młodzianem >>> >>>> Piwnej, pod liczbą dziewięcdziesiąt szóstą, w Parafii Swiątego Jana >>> Świętego >>> >>>> zamieszkałym, urodzonym we Wsi Pankach, Gubernii Kaliskiej, z Pawła >>>> Konarskiego dworskiego, i Petronelli z Niepiekłów, małżonków, tamże >>>> zamieszkałych, mającym lat trzydzieści dwa a Julianną Trzybińską, >> Panną, >>> ... dwa, a ... >>> >>>> corką Wincentego Trzybińskiego, i Katarzyny małżonków, zrodzona w >>> zrodzoną (urodzoną) >>> >>>> Mieście Mszczonowie, Gubernii Mazowieckiej, mającą lat dwudzieścia >> dwa, >>> dwadzieścia >>> >>>> przy Rodzicach swoich, pod liczba wyż rzeczona w Parafii Swiątego >> Jana, >>> liczbą wyż rzeczoną (at the address given above), Świętego >>> >>>> stale zamieszkała. Małżeństwo to, poprzedzily trzy zapowiedzie, w >>> poprzedziły, zapowiedzia >>> >>>> dniach,trzecim, dziesiątym i siedmnastym Listopada, Roku bieżącego, >> w >>>> Kościele Parafialnym Warszawskim Swiętego Jana. Tamowanie małżoństwa >> nie >>> małżeństwa >>> >>>> zasło Małzonkowie Nowi Oświadczaja, iż nie zawarti umowy >> przedslubnej. >>> ... zaszło. Mał ... oświadczają ... nie zawarli ... przedślubnej. >>> >>>> Niniejszy Akt stawającym i Świadkom przeczytany, podpiscmym został >> przez >>> podpisanym >>> >>>> Nas, wraz z Zaślubionym i Swiadkomi, Zaślubiona zaś pisać nieumie. >>> Świadkami >>> >>>> Ks. Wincenty Miszkich po prob ? parafii S Jana >>> po prob (most likely it is "po proboszcza" = for the pastor) >>> >>>> Igay (sic) Konarski >>>> Ignacy Szklanik >>>> Stanisław Słodowski >>>> >>>> It happened in Warsaw, the 19th day of November, 1844, at 5:00 in >> the >>>> afternoon. We make it known that in the presence of witnesses, >> Ignacy >>>> Szklanik, former teacher, and Stanisław Płodowski, apprentice >> tailor, >>>> both of age, residing in Warsaw, _________ . A religious marriage >> was >>>> contracted and blessed by the undersigned today between Ignacy >> Konarski, >>>> young apprentice tailor residing at number 96 Piwna Street in St. >> John’s >>> the intent here is młodzian = youth (not previously married) >>> most likely Piwno Street >>> >>>> Parish, born in the village of Panki, province of Kalisz, to Pawel >>>> Konarski of the court, and Petronela née Niepiekło, married couple, >>>> living at the same place, 32 years of age, and Julianna Trzybińska, >>>> unmarried woman, daughter of Wincenty and Katarzyna Trzybiński, a >>>> married couple, born in the town of Mszczonow, province of >> Mazowiecki, >>>> 22 years of age, living constantly with her parents, at the >> aforesaid >>>> number _______ and in St. John’s Parish. This marriage was preceded >> by >>>> three readings of the banns, on the 3rd, 10th, and 17th of November >> of >>>> the current year, in St. John’s Parish in Warsaw. No impediments to >> the >>>> marriage arose. There is no prenuptial agreement. This document was >> read >>>> to the declarant and witnesses and was signed by Us, whereas the >>>> newlyweds and witnesses together cannot write. >>>> >>>> Rev. Wincenty Miszkich Pastor ? St. John's Parish >>>> Igay (sic) (Ignacy) Konarski >>>> Ignacy Szklanik >>>> Stanisław Słodowski >>>> >>>> >>> ********************************* >>> Need to contact the list manager? Write to Marie at Poland-Roots- >> [email protected] >>> ---------------------------------- >>> Discussion of Polish food, culture, and customs are welcome on the >> list as long as the discussion stays pertinent to the topic of this >> list: researching our Polish roots. >>> ---------------------------------- >>> Browse the list's archives here: >>> http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=poland-roots >>> Search the list's archives here: >>> http://archiver.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/search?aop=1 >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to POLAND-ROOTS- >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in >> the subject and the body of the message >> ********************************* >> Need to contact the list manager? Write to Marie at Poland-Roots- >> [email protected] >> ---------------------------------- >> Discussion of Polish food, culture, and customs are welcome on the list >> as long as the discussion stays pertinent to the topic of this list: >> researching our Polish roots. >> ---------------------------------- >> Browse the list's archives here: >> http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=poland-roots >> Search the list's archives here: >> http://archiver.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/search?aop=1 >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to POLAND-ROOTS- >> [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in >> the subject and the body of the message > ********************************* > Need to contact the list manager? Write to Marie at [email protected] > ---------------------------------- > Discussion of Polish food, culture, and customs are welcome on the list as long as the discussion stays pertinent to the topic of this list: researching our Polish roots. > ---------------------------------- > Browse the list's archives here: > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=poland-roots > Search the list's archives here: > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/search?aop=1 > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Roman, I'm glad you knew why I was asking the question about the street name. I've come from initially thinking words would be as they appear to assuming that all words can and will be changed in some way by declension, etc. dependent on the situation. More comments below... On 2/16/2011 1:13 PM, Roman wrote: > Michele, > > See below. > > Roman > > On 2/16/2011 2:04 PM, Michele wrote: >> Roman, >> >> Thank you very much for the compliment and the corrections. I got out >> of practice during a long spell with no new records and it looks like I >> may need to get new glasses too! I should have gotten at least a few >> more of these. I appreciate that you got me back on track. I got 'na >> dniu' right farther down in the record but the way it was written in >> that one spot was puzzling. It was fun to come across so many new words >> (for me) in this record. I didn't know what to do with (Ulicy) "Piwnej" >> so I had done a Google map search for St. John's Cathedral in Warsaw and >> looked at street names in the neighborhood. That is where I found Piwna >> Street. I notice that many of the streets in that area end in the >> letter a. Would it be different in the narrative than it is on a map? > There are two issues here. > > First, the typical style for naming streets in Poland is to assign > ownership of the street to some person, event, or other name. Hence we > see in Warsaw street names such as the following: > > Aleja 3 Maja = Avenue of May 3rd (Any significance here?) > Plac Bankowy = Bank's Place (though Plac has different translations) > Kanadyjska = Canadian (in the Diplomatic section Saska Kępa) > Dowcip = Joke (There are exceptions!) > > Second, since streets are normally specified as belonging to someone or > something, the owner must be rendered in the Genitive Case. Polish, > after all, is a heavily declined language and noun usage must follow > declension requirements. The ending -a is a Genitive Case ending. > > In your case we have the following: > > Piwny = beer; Nominative Case - the owner of the street. > Ulica Piwna = Beer's Street; Genitive Case. > przy Ulicy Piwnej = Locative Case - required with preposition "przy". I have come across another example like the ones you wrote above. In a different record (the next one I'd like to post), the same family lived on "Rynku Starego Miasto" in the record. On the map, it is Rynek Starego Miasto and I am reading that to mean Old Town Market Street. So would it be Piwno Street in the translation of this record? And what case would that be? > >> Also, I have one other question I forgot to ask. Do you know what the >> writing above the priest's name says in the left hand margin? It looks >> to me like either powerskiego or pdwerskiego but I can't figure out why >> it is there. > The answer is "Yes". Let me give you a hint: that's not a "p". The > marginal entry is "^ dworskiego". Find the corresponding caret. Ah, OK. I see it now. Thanks! Michele > I have posted just that at this link. The arrow above it >> leads to the entire document. >> >> https://picasaweb.google.com/mgardenerm/KonarskiTrzebinskaMarriageRecord?authkey=Gv1sRgCNXo_dSv2N2k7gE#5574362385170679250 >> >> Thanks again for your help, >> >> Michele > ********************************* > Need to contact the list manager? Write to Marie at [email protected] > ---------------------------------- > Discussion of Polish food, culture, and customs are welcome on the list as long as the discussion stays pertinent to the topic of this list: researching our Polish roots. > ---------------------------------- > Browse the list's archives here: > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index?list=poland-roots > Search the list's archives here: > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/search?aop=1 > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message