Barbara, I think what you mean by "demonstrated marital alliance" is the fact that, in some instances, a line may be interrupted by a false paternity event (gotta love those techno-euphemisms). While these "false events" undoubtedly occured here and there, what is far more common to be observed in medieval genealogy are extra-marital alliances. The Beaufort branch of the Plantagenets, which produced the last of the reigning Lancaster and Yorkist kings, found its origins in the illegitimate union of John of Gaunt & Katherine Swynford. Nobles and kings, and lesser gentry, were remarkably responsible to their progeny. One finds examples of this care in the legacies left to their heirs, both legally and "naturally" conceived. Many of these "bastards of the king" were provided sizeable legacies and expansive titles. The actual paternity of the queen's offspring was a bit more dicey to try to conceal: she was rarely out of sight of her ladies-in-waiting, even in the boudoir. One can thus be confident that Edward III, despite having a father more interested in his pals than in his queen, was in fact sired by Edward II of England. Apologies to Hollywood and Mel Gibson. As far as original events and facts in the distant past being "all" supposition, we may have to agree to disagree. Hardly anyone disputes the fact that Edward III was the reigning monarch of England from 1327 to 1377, yet there are no living witnesses to this fact. What we know was recorded for us. "Absolute" proof is not necessary for us to be confident in the facts of history or lineage, provided we learn how to seek out the best sources of that history. Educating oneself in this category is a lifetime process, but it does become easier with practice. Best, Kevin "Barbara" <ladybbug@earthlink.ne To: PLANTAGENET-DESCENDANTS-PROJECT-L@rootsweb.com t> cc: Subject: RE: [PDP] Ancestors of our ancestors 04/30/2004 12:26 PM Please respond to PLANTAGENET-DESCENDANT S-PROJECT-L Of course, whatever one's genealogical chart might show of our "contemporaneously documented Plantagenet ancestors", notwithstanding "Modern standards of proof" there is always the distinct possibility that one or two out of those many generations of offspring was not - shall I delicately say - strictly from the demonstrated marital alliance - human nature being what it is. In actuality, if DNA were available from some of these guys, we might find we are all descended from the gardener and not the kings at all. In fact, there IS no ABSOLUTE proof of our ancestry. It's ALL supposition. I just like the thought of having a king, a notably romantic part of world history, for a grampa. And mowing the weeds in my yard in my tiara from time to time has earned me a certain status, if you will, in my neighborhood. I prefer to think our real inheritance from our forebears is attitudinal and cultural. (And, when there's an ancestor who particularly embarrasses me I can always claim illegitimacy in my mind.) It's nice I have such nice smart cousins on this list who are so genealogically generous. Love, "Lady Barbara" ============================== Gain access to over two billion names including the new Immigration Collection with an Ancestry.com free trial. Click to learn more. http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=4930&sourceid=1237 CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message.

Kevin Actually, I wasn't particularly sure as to the absolute technical meaning of "demonstrated marital alliance". I stole it and "Modern standards of proof" from your earlier post. Ergo the quotation marks. And as to your correction of my saying it was "ALL supposition" I agree to agree with you. Your point is well taken. I forgot the ladies in waiting. That's reassuring. And as another example of nobles acknowledging their offspring, truth be told our Sutton Dudley line to the Plantagenets would have ended abruptly with Elizabeth Tomlinson, my 9th great grandmother the well-known mistress of Edward Lord Dudley and mother of his 12 children were that not true. Instead, his will shows she and her children inherited from him. I'm learning so much. Thanks. Barbara -----Original Message----- From: KBradford@lourdes-pad.org [mailto:KBradford@lourdes-pad.org] Sent: Friday, April 30, 2004 2:20 PM To: PLANTAGENET-DESCENDANTS-PROJECT-L@rootsweb.com Subject: RE: [PDP] Ancestors of our ancestors Barbara, I think what you mean by "demonstrated marital alliance" is the fact that, in some instances, a line may be interrupted by a false paternity event (gotta love those techno-euphemisms). While these "false events" undoubtedly occured here and there, what is far more common to be observed in medieval genealogy are extra-marital alliances. The Beaufort branch of the Plantagenets, which produced the last of the reigning Lancaster and Yorkist kings, found its origins in the illegitimate union of John of Gaunt & Katherine Swynford. Nobles and kings, and lesser gentry, were remarkably responsible to their progeny. One finds examples of this care in the legacies left to their heirs, both legally and "naturally" conceived. Many of these "bastards of the king" were provided sizeable legacies and expansive titles. The actual paternity of the queen's offspring was a bit more dicey to try to conceal: she was rarely out of sight of her ladies-in-waiting, even in the boudoir. One can thus be confident that Edward III, despite having a father more interested in his pals than in his queen, was in fact sired by Edward II of England. Apologies to Hollywood and Mel Gibson. As far as original events and facts in the distant past being "all" supposition, we may have to agree to disagree. Hardly anyone disputes the fact that Edward III was the reigning monarch of England from 1327 to 1377, yet there are no living witnesses to this fact. What we know was recorded for us. "Absolute" proof is not necessary for us to be confident in the facts of history or lineage, provided we learn how to seek out the best sources of that history. Educating oneself in this category is a lifetime process, but it does become easier with practice. Best, Kevin "Barbara" <ladybbug@earthlink.ne To: PLANTAGENET-DESCENDANTS-PROJECT-L@rootsweb.com t> cc: Subject: RE: [PDP] Ancestors of our ancestors 04/30/2004 12:26 PM Please respond to PLANTAGENET-DESCENDANT S-PROJECT-L Of course, whatever one's genealogical chart might show of our "contemporaneously documented Plantagenet ancestors", notwithstanding "Modern standards of proof" there is always the distinct possibility that one or two out of those many generations of offspring was not - shall I delicately say - strictly from the demonstrated marital alliance - human nature being what it is. In actuality, if DNA were available from some of these guys, we might find we are all descended from the gardener and not the kings at all. In fact, there IS no ABSOLUTE proof of our ancestry. It's ALL supposition. I just like the thought of having a king, a notably romantic part of world history, for a grampa. And mowing the weeds in my yard in my tiara from time to time has earned me a certain status, if you will, in my neighborhood. I prefer to think our real inheritance from our forebears is attitudinal and cultural. (And, when there's an ancestor who particularly embarrasses me I can always claim illegitimacy in my mind.) It's nice I have such nice smart cousins on this list who are so genealogically generous. Love, "Lady Barbara" ============================== Gain access to over two billion names including the new Immigration Collection with an Ancestry.com free trial. Click to learn more. http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=4930&sourceid=1237 CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message. ============================== Gain access to over two billion names including the new Immigration Collection with an Ancestry.com free trial. Click to learn more. http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=4930&sourceid=1237