Jim - He was grandfather of Edward I and father of Henry III.I guess just John, KoE. The file I use calls him de Normandie and others I have seen say John Lackland. Do you know if both are correct? It seems they all have a couple of names. My line to Edward I branches off at Eudo de Welles' wife Maud Greystroke and goes to John as such: John de Normandie, KoE (1166-1216) Richard Fitzroy, PoE (Abt.1186-1270) Isabella De Chilham (1218-1276) Edward I. King of England (d. 1307) Sir Thomas Berkeley Baron (1245-1321) Thomas of Brotherton, Earl of Norfolk (1300-1338) Sir Maurice Berkeley Baron (1281-1326) Margaret Plantagenet, Duch. of Norfolk (1322-1399) Isabella Berkeley Baroness (Abt. 1307-1362) Elizabeth de Segrave (1338-1375) Sir Roger Clifford Baron (1335-1369) Eleanor Mowbray (1355-1404) Catherine Clifford Baroness (Abt. 1367-1413) Eudo de Wel1es (Abt. 1387 - Bef. 1421) married 1406 Maud Greystoke (Abt 1387) Lionel de Welles, 6th Baron Welles (1407-1461) E1eanor de We1les (Abt. 1428) Anne Hoo (Abt. 1448) Margaret Copley (Abt. 1493) Edward Lewknor (Abt. 1516/17) Mary Lewknor (Abt. 1549) Mary Machell (Abt. 1574) James Cudworth (1605 - 1681) Hopefully this format will retain itself. If not I will repost. And those other connections are interesting! Out of curiosity, does illegitimacy have any bearing on ancestry? Hamlin is supposedly a 24th g grandfather, Robert de Cael a 24th g grandfather, Maud, and her sister Alice, both 27th g grandmothers, as well other grandparents among his 8 other wives. Edmund 21st g grandfather:-) A virtual medieval Peyton Place:-) Thanks, Jim