I'm a Welles descendant as well, but I haven't yet traced his lineage back to the Plantagenets. I've been researching for about 3 years now, and the first ancestress I found whose lineage goes back to the Plantagenets is Ellin Hamilton Allison. She and her husband were Scots who emigrated in the early 1600s. I would be interested in your Welles information. Thanks, Donna ----- Original Message ----- From: KBradford@lourdes-pad.org Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2004 12:23:02 -0500 To: PLANTAGENET-DESCENDANTS-PROJECT-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PDP] My Line By way of WELLES / WELLS -Correction > > One of the das. of Gov. Thomas Welles, Sarah (nee Welles) Chester, is my > ancestress. > > The descent as given from Edward IV does not appear in Faris' Plantagenet > Ancestry, 2nd. ed., or in Roberts' RD600. > > Cecily Plantagenet had 2 das., Anne & Elizabeth, from her marriage to John, > Viscount Welles (see > http://www3.dcs.hull.ac.uk/cgi-bin/gedlkup/n=royal?royal01000 ). I haven't > been able to find a reference to any sons. > > Savage, Otis & other authorities place Thomas Welles in co. Bucks, but do > not indicate his ancestry; additionally, the name of his wife/wives is not > positively known from older sources. I'd be interested to see what your > sources are and will be happy to exchange off-list. > > Best, > Kevin > > > > > "John Belz" > <jcb123abcd@hotmail.co To: PLANTAGENET-DESCENDANTS-PROJECT-L@rootsweb.com > m> cc: > Subject: [PDP] My Line By way of WELLES / WELLS -Correction > 04/17/2004 11:24 PM > Please respond to > PLANTAGENET-DESCENDANT > S-PROJECT-L > > > > > > > Hi Cousins Here is a corrected Plant line. Got my wives mixed up. > Thanks > for reading. John Belz from Lincoln, Nebraska, USA > > King Edward IV 1442-1483 > Cecily Plantagenet 1648-1507 > Robert Welles1484- > Thomas Welles 1504-1558 > Robert Welles 1540-1617 Alice Hunt > Gov Thomas Welles 1594-1660 of Connecticut Alice Tomes 1592-Bef 1659 > > John Welles 1621-1659 ELIZABETH BOURNE 1627-1668 > > John Welles 1648-1714 Mary Hollister 1650- > Sarah Welles 1673-Aft 1729 John Everett 1670-1729 CT NY > Daniel Everett 1692- Hope Rhodes NY > James Everett 1746-1820 Hannah Water -Aft 1791 NY > Daniel Everett 1782-1823 Emma Ryerson 1786-1857 (Royal Line also) NY-NJ > Martin Everett 1814-1870 Margaret Hunt 1815-1857 Neb > Jesse Everett 1846-1898 Frances Ackland 1856-1908 Neb > Mabel Everett 1892-1973 John Stevens 1880-1956 Neb > My Mom > ME > Thanks again for reading. John from Nebraska "Go Big Red" > -- ___________________________________________________________ Sign-up for Ads Free at Mail.com http://promo.mail.com/adsfreejump.htm

That's what I love about Genealogy - always new things to learn. Barbara -----Original Message----- From: JF [mailto:gen9@cox.net] Sent: Monday, April 19, 2004 12:32 PM To: PLANTAGENET-DESCENDANTS-PROJECT-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PDP] Elizabeth de VERNON and Margaret Swynfen Barbara, Thank you for the extra effort in researching this brass. This sheds a good deal of light on the symbolism. Also, the Admiral's point is well taken, an engraver probably would never have seen a real elephant. Thanks again. Jim Barbara wrote: >This discussion that by 4/11 included the symbolism on the monumental brass >at http://www.mbs-brasses.co.uk/pic_lib/Tong_Brass.htm ><http://www.mbs-brasses.co.uk/pic_lib/Tong_Brass.htm> of Sir William >Vernon, knight constable of England, and his wife, Margaret Swynfen from >Tong piqued my interest. > > > ============================== Gain access to over two billion names including the new Immigration Collection with an Ancestry.com free trial. Click to learn more. http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=4930&sourceid=1237

One of the das. of Gov. Thomas Welles, Sarah (nee Welles) Chester, is my ancestress. The descent as given from Edward IV does not appear in Faris' Plantagenet Ancestry, 2nd. ed., or in Roberts' RD600. Cecily Plantagenet had 2 das., Anne & Elizabeth, from her marriage to John, Viscount Welles (see http://www3.dcs.hull.ac.uk/cgi-bin/gedlkup/n=royal?royal01000 ). I haven't been able to find a reference to any sons. Savage, Otis & other authorities place Thomas Welles in co. Bucks, but do not indicate his ancestry; additionally, the name of his wife/wives is not positively known from older sources. I'd be interested to see what your sources are and will be happy to exchange off-list. Best, Kevin "John Belz" <jcb123abcd@hotmail.co To: PLANTAGENET-DESCENDANTS-PROJECT-L@rootsweb.com m> cc: Subject: [PDP] My Line By way of WELLES / WELLS -Correction 04/17/2004 11:24 PM Please respond to PLANTAGENET-DESCENDANT S-PROJECT-L Hi Cousins Here is a corrected Plant line. Got my wives mixed up. Thanks for reading. John Belz from Lincoln, Nebraska, USA King Edward IV 1442-1483 Cecily Plantagenet 1648-1507 Robert Welles1484- Thomas Welles 1504-1558 Robert Welles 1540-1617 Alice Hunt Gov Thomas Welles 1594-1660 of Connecticut Alice Tomes 1592-Bef 1659 John Welles 1621-1659 ELIZABETH BOURNE 1627-1668 John Welles 1648-1714 Mary Hollister 1650- Sarah Welles 1673-Aft 1729 John Everett 1670-1729 CT NY Daniel Everett 1692- Hope Rhodes NY James Everett 1746-1820 Hannah Water -Aft 1791 NY Daniel Everett 1782-1823 Emma Ryerson 1786-1857 (Royal Line also) NY-NJ Martin Everett 1814-1870 Margaret Hunt 1815-1857 Neb Jesse Everett 1846-1898 Frances Ackland 1856-1908 Neb Mabel Everett 1892-1973 John Stevens 1880-1956 Neb My Mom ME Thanks again for reading. John from Nebraska "Go Big Red" _________________________________________________________________ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar ? get it now! http://toolbar.msn.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/ ============================== Gain access to over two billion names including the new Immigration Collection with an Ancestry.com free trial. Click to learn more. http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=4930&sourceid=1237 CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message.

Barbara, Barbara wrote: >This is the St Margaret story I knew > > >St. Margaret of Scotland > >Born about 1045, died 16 Nov., 1092, was a daughter of Edward "Outremere", >or "the Exile", by Agatha, kinswoman of Gisela, the wife of St. Stephen of >Hungary... > ES I:3 and ES II:78 (also Wikipedia, "Bruno of Augsburg") make her as the daughter of Bruno, Bishop of Augsburg, brother to Agatha, wife of Stephen I of Hungary. Both Bruno and Agatha, along with St. Henry II and Brigitta were children of Henry II, Duke of Bavaria and Gisela of Burgundy. So Agatha would have been Gisela's niece. Jim

Barbara, Thank you for the extra effort in researching this brass. This sheds a good deal of light on the symbolism. Also, the Admiral's point is well taken, an engraver probably would never have seen a real elephant. Thanks again. Jim Barbara wrote: >This discussion that by 4/11 included the symbolism on the monumental brass >at http://www.mbs-brasses.co.uk/pic_lib/Tong_Brass.htm ><http://www.mbs-brasses.co.uk/pic_lib/Tong_Brass.htm> of Sir William >Vernon, knight constable of England, and his wife, Margaret Swynfen from >Tong piqued my interest. > > >

This is the St Margaret story I knew St. Margaret of Scotland Born about 1045, died 16 Nov., 1092, was a daughter of Edward "Outremere", or "the Exile", by Agatha, kinswoman of Gisela, the wife of St. Stephen of Hungary. She was the granddaughter of Edmund Ironside. A constant tradition asserts that Margaret's father and his brother Edmund were sent to Hungary for safety during the reign of Canute, but no record of the fact has been found in that country. The date of Margaret's birth cannot be ascertained with accuracy, but it must have been between the years 1038, when St. Stephen died, and 1057, when her father returned to England. It appears that Margaret came with him on that occasion and, on his death and the conquest of England by the Normans, her mother Agatha decided to return to the Continent. A storm however drove their ship to Scotland, where Malcolm III received the party under his protection, subsequently taking Margaret to wife. This event had been delayed for a while by Margaret's desire to entire religion, but it took place some time between 1067 and 1070. In her position as queen, all Margaret's great influence was thrown into the cause of religion and piety. A synod was held, and among the special reforms instituted the most important were the regulation of the Lenten fast <http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09152a.htm> , observance of the Easter <http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05224d.htm> communion, and the removal of certain abuses concerning marriage within the prohibited degrees. Her private life was given up to constant prayer and practices of piety. She founded several churches, including the Abbey of Dunfermline, built to enshrine her greatest treasure, a relic <http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12734a.htm> of the true Cross. Her book of the Gospels, richly adorned with jewels, which one day dropped into a river and was according to legend miraculously <http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10338a.htm> recovered, is now in the Bodleian library at Oxford. She foretold the day of her death, which took place at Edinburgh on 16 Nov., 1093, her body being buried before the high altar at Dunfermline. In 1250 Margaret was canonized by Innocent IV <http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08017a.htm> , and her relics <http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12734a.htm> were translated on 19 June, 1259, to a new shrine, the base of which is still visible beyond the modern east wall of the restored church. At the Reformation her head passed into the possession of Mary Queen of Scots, and later was secured by the Jesuits <http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14081a.htm> at Douai, where it is believed to have perished during the French Revolution <http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13009a.htm> . According to George Conn, "De duplici statu religionis apud Scots" (Rome, 1628), the rest of the relics <http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12734a.htm> , together with those of Malcolm, were acquired by Philip II of Spain, and placed in two urns in the Escorial. When, however, Bishop Gillies of Edinburgh applied through Pius IX <http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12134b.htm> for their restoration to Scotland, they could not be found. The chief authority for Margaret's life is the contemporary biography printed in "Acta SS.", II, June, 320. Its authorship has been ascribed to Turgot, the saint's confessor, a monk of Durham and later Archbishop of St. Andrews, and also to Theodoric, a somewhat obscure monk; but in spite of much controversy the point remains quite unsettled. The feast of St. Margaret is now observed by the whole Church on 10 June. This Margaret was my many-great grandmother Who can put these stories together? Barbara

This discussion that by 4/11 included the symbolism on the monumental brass at http://www.mbs-brasses.co.uk/pic_lib/Tong_Brass.htm <http://www.mbs-brasses.co.uk/pic_lib/Tong_Brass.htm> of Sir William Vernon, knight constable of England, and his wife, Margaret Swynfen from Tong piqued my interest. First, I researched the University of Aberdeen Bestiary Project pages and found our beast Here’s a wonderful example of an elephant – like that under Margaret’s feet. http://www.clues.abdn.ac.uk:8080/bestiary_old/alt/comment/det_com/elepf65v.h tml <http://www.clues.abdn.ac.uk:8080/bestiary_old/alt/comment/det_com/elepf65v. html> And here’s the commentary in elephants translated from the Latin http://www.clues.abdn.ac.uk:8080/bestiary_old/alt/comment/analysis.html <http://www.clues.abdn.ac.uk:8080/bestiary_old/alt/comment/analysis.html> I also wrote to Rear Admiral Harris at the MBS brasses site for any insight he might have. This morning I received the following from Rear admiral Harris - “As far as your questions are concerned, the animal at Margaret's feet is an elephant. A fifteenth century engraver wouldn't have seen one, and might have thought it would do for a dragon, which could allude to St.Margaret's triumph over a dragon. Sir William has a grassy mound as a footrest and the plant is probably meant to represent, we think, a clover.” (This appears to be the actual St Margaret to whom he refers http://www.catholicforum.com/saints/saintm19.htm <http://www.catholic-forum.com/saints/saintm19.htm> ) “English brasses are, as you say, a wonderful resource and I, for one, have been enjoying them for fifty years. All your thoughts are correct except, interestingly, that about physical likeness. It seems that they used to go to great trouble to get the status and heraldry absolutely right, but weren't interested in any attempt at portraiture until the 16th or 17th centuries, and maybe not even then, since there are no proven examples.” He wrote again later and added (regarding Paulette Marta’s suggestion of the shamrock): “Also, I've been talking to a colleague some more about the plant on the grassy mound, and she likes your idea of a shamrock to symbolize the Trinity, so thanks for putting it forward.” Just a little more to think about Barbara

I am reposting my lineage to Edward I without the "spouses". In copying and pasting into Outlook, the tabs got all messed up and made it difficult and confusing to read. Hopefully this is easier. Sorry for the confusion. Edward I. King of England (d. 1307) Thomas of Brotherton, Earl of Norfolk (1300-1338) Margaret Plantagenet, Duch. of Norfolk (1322-1399) Elizabeth de Segrave (1338-1375) Eleanor Mowbray (1355-1404) Eudo de Wel1es (Abt. 1387 - Bef. 1421) Lionel de Welles, 6th Baron Welles (1407-1461) E1eanor de We1les (Abt. 1428) Anne Hoo (Abt. 1448) Margaret Copley (Abt. 1493) Edward Lewknor (Abt. 1516/17) Mary Lewknor (Abt. 1549) Mary Machell (Abt. 1574) James Cudworth (1605 - 1681)

In a message dated 4/18/2004 10:07:24 AM Mountain Daylight Time, gym4jim@bellsouth.net writes: <<Edward I. King of England (d. 1307) - Margaret of France Thomas of Brotherton, Earl of Norfolk (1300-1338) - Alice de Hales>> I have Edward's parents as King HENRY (1 Oct 1207 - 16 Nov 1272) and Eleanor BERENGER (ABOUT 1217 - 24 Jun 1291). Regards, Diane Plantagenets linked through Beuford > Stafford > Neville > Fiennes > Lennard/Leonard > Barnham > Barnum.

This is the lineage I have from Cudworth to Edward I. There are a few Welles in there.as well:-) FYI Edward I. King of England (d. 1307) - Margaret of France Thomas of Brotherton, Earl of Norfolk (1300-1338) - Alice de Hales Margaret Plantagenet, Duch. of Norfolk (1322-1399) - John de Segrave 4th Baron Segrave (1320-1353) Elizabeth de Segrave (1338-1375) - John Mowbray, 4th Baron Mowbray (1340-1368) Eleanor Mowbray (1355-1404) - John de Welles, 5th Baron Welles (1342-1421) Eudo de Wel1es (Abt. 1387 - Bef. 1421) - Maud de Greystock Lionel de Welles, 6th Baron Welles (1407-1461) - Joan Waterton E1eanor de We1les (Abt. 1428) - Thomas Hoo, 1st Baron Hoo (abt. 1396) Anne Hoo (Abt. 1448) - Sir Roger Copley (Abt. 1429) Margaret Copley (Abt. 1493) - Edward Lewknor (Abt. 1492) Edward Lewknor (Abt. 1516/17) - Dorothy Wroth Mary Lewknor (Abt. 1549) - Matthew Machell (Abt.1537) Mary Machell (Abt. 1574) - Ralph Cudworth (Aft. 1572) James Cudworth (1605 - 1681)

I have recently found a link to the Plantagenet's (Edward I, King of England, d. 1307) through General James Cudworth (1605-1681), a well known early MA colonist. I am aware of a partial fraud compiled by Mrs. Harriet Bainbridge de Salis. However, this was later corrected, and proven, by Debrett Ancestry Research, commissioned by Ms. Jane E. Grunwell, as stated on pg. 337 of the book, Royal Descents of 600 Immigrants. I am wondering if anyone else is descended from Cudworth. I am related to him through my grandmother who was a Pratt. I originally thought I was connected to "royalty" through her mother's line, Pierce (John Pierce, 1588) but after questioning the person who uploaded the GEDCOM and used his own research as many sources, said the connection of John to the Percy's (and thus on to Plantagenet, and Edward I) was pure speculation and conjecture. LOL! That was, thankfully, an early queue to check sources for me.as I resume my genealogical hobby after 35 years hiatus. Thank you.and interested in any thoughts this may conjure up. Jim Wormelle

Hi Cousins Here is a corrected Plant line. Got my wives mixed up. Thanks for reading. John Belz from Lincoln, Nebraska, USA King Edward IV 1442-1483 Cecily Plantagenet 1648-1507 Robert Welles1484- Thomas Welles 1504-1558 Robert Welles 1540-1617 Alice Hunt Gov Thomas Welles 1594-1660 of Connecticut Alice Tomes 1592-Bef 1659 John Welles 1621-1659 ELIZABETH BOURNE 1627-1668 John Welles 1648-1714 Mary Hollister 1650- Sarah Welles 1673-Aft 1729 John Everett 1670-1729 CT NY Daniel Everett 1692- Hope Rhodes NY James Everett 1746-1820 Hannah Water -Aft 1791 NY Daniel Everett 1782-1823 Emma Ryerson 1786-1857 (Royal Line also) NY-NJ Martin Everett 1814-1870 Margaret Hunt 1815-1857 Neb Jesse Everett 1846-1898 Frances Ackland 1856-1908 Neb Mabel Everett 1892-1973 John Stevens 1880-1956 Neb My Mom ME Thanks again for reading. John from Nebraska "Go Big Red" _________________________________________________________________ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar – get it now! http://toolbar.msn.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/

Hi Ken and all, I've been lurking on the list for a long while and reading with interest all the posts. I found it interesting that you have an Airey line in your family, and that was what actually got me interested in the Plantagenet's list as I saw reference to another Airey some time back on another website, I think it was a Margaret Airey who had a son who I can't remember the name now, but I think he had Talbot Plantagenet Stapleton in his name. I don't know if these Airey's are related to mine somewhere way back in history, but I was just curious as I am of Airey descent also although when they came to Australia to settle, they changed the spelling to Arey. I am great great grand daughter to a Robert Ellwood Airey/Arey of Luzerne Co. Pennsylvania, who was one of about 9 children. His father came from Cumberland UK. All of Robert Ellwood Airey's siblings remained in the USA as far as I am aware, and so my cousins from them are in the US. I don't know if my Airey's are related, but I am desperately trying to find my relatives who remained there, and find out more of the ancient origins. I have heard that the Airey name is Bernician, from the Scottish/English border area, and they were of Pict and Angle descent, but that their more ancient origins are as descendants of Beriah, son of Asher, of the Tribe of Asher, (Lost Tribes of Israel). I'm just wondering if you may know anything more about the Airey connections, and their connections to the Plantagenet lines as your Airey connection is the second I have seen now to the Plantagenet name. Any info would be gratefully appreciated from anyone. This is all very new to me. PS. If this is a bit off topic, feel free to contact my private email address lynette@fastrac.net.au Thanks in advance! Regards, Lynette Day ----- Original Message ----- From: "kwhittemore" <kwhittemore@sbcglobal.net> To: <PLANTAGENET-DESCENDANTS-PROJECT-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, April 10, 2004 11:17 AM Subject: Re: [PDP] My most direct Plantagenet linneage > For what it is worth, this is one of my lines: > GEOFFREY "PLANTAGENET" > HENRY II > JOHN LACKLAND > HENRY III > EDWARD I OF ENGLAND > > EDWARD II OF ENGLAND > > Edward III, King of England and France=Phillippa of Hainault > John Plantagenet of Gaunt, 1st Duke of Lancaster, K.G.=Katherine Roelt of > Hainault > Joan Beaufort (Plantagenet)=Sir Ralph Nevill, 1st Earl of Westmoreland, K.G. > Sir Edward Neville, 3rd Baron Bergavenny, K.G.=Elizabeth Beauchamp of Hanley > Sir George Neville, 4th Baron Bergavenny=Margaret Fenne of Soulton Burdeleys > Sir George Neville, 5th Baron Bergavenny, K.G., P.C.=Mary Stafford of > Monmouth > Sir Henry Neville, 6th Baron Bergavenny=Frances Manners Baroness le > Despencer > Mary Neville, Baroness le Despencer=Sir Thomas Fane, Knt., of Badsell > > Sir Francis Fane, 1st (Fane) Earl of Westmoreland=Mary Mildmay of Apethorpe > Elizabeth Cope neé Fane, widow of Sir John Cope=Col. William Cope of Icombe > Elizabeth Whitney neé Cope, widow of Thomas Whitney=Thomas Geers, Esq., of > the Marsh > Elizabeth Geers of Icombe=William Gregory, Esq., of How Caple > Elizabeth Gregory of How Caple=John Nourse, Esq., of Weston-under-Penyard > James Nourse, Esq., of Weston-under-Penyard=Sarah Foauce of London > Gabriel Nourse (1770-1839), married Ann Doudle, and had issue. > Ann Nourse married Joseph B. Austin > > Ezra Austin married Anne Stouffer > > Minnie Kathryn Austin married John Charles Rowland > > Frank Wilbur Rowland married Anna Beatrice Airey > > My Grand parents > Ken

In a message dated 4/16/2004 3:13:10 PM Eastern Standard Time, jcb123abcd@hotmail.com writes: Any of your Welles?

Hi Cousins Here is another of my lines back. It is not one of my strongest, but is one of the most recent. Thanks for reading. John Belz from Nebraska, USA King Edward IV 1442-1483 Cecily Plantagenet 1648-1507 Robert Welles1484- Thomas Welles 1504-1558 Robert Welles 1540-1617 Alice Hunt Gov Thomas Welles 1594-1660 of Connecticut Alice Tomes 1592-Bef 1659 John Welles 1621-1659 Joanna Treat Bef 1618-1694 John Welles 1648-1714 Mary Hollister 1650- Sarah Welles 1673-Aft 1729 John Everett 1670-1729 CT NY Daniel Everett 1692- Hope Rhodes NY James Everett 1746-1820 Hannah Water -Aft 1791 NY Daniel Everett 1782-1823 Emma Ryerson 1786-1857 (Royal Line also) NY-NJ Martin Everett 1814-1870 Margaret Hunt 1815-1857 Neb Jesse Everett 1846-1898 Frances Ackland 1856-1908 Neb Mabel Everett 1892-1973 John Stevens 1880-1956 Neb My Mom ME Thanks again for reading. John from Nebraska Go Big Red _________________________________________________________________ Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee® Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963

Kevin, KBradford@lourdes-pad.org wrote: >Jim, > >I don't find these Grays [de Grai, etc.],in DD; I'll check Moor's Knights >of Edward I as soon as I get a chance; the time period may be too late for >the former resource. > > It's hard to know what time period the Grays of Northumberland branched off from the family in Scotland. Being "of great antiquity in Northumberland" doesn't say much as to when this may have occurred. We have the same problem with the Gray family in Scotland. That is that, prior to Sir John Gray of Broxmouth we don't have an accurate record of this family either. All we can determine from the armorial bearings is that Sir John Gray of Broxmouth was heir to the senior branch of the family while Thomas Gray of Wark was heir to a cadet branch. I appreciate you looking though--thanks. Jim

Jim, I don't find these Grays [de Grai, etc.],in DD; I'll check Moor's Knights of Edward I as soon as I get a chance; the time period may be too late for the former resource. Kevin Just a thought--Kevin, if you don't mind me asking, any chance DD has anything on this family in Northumberland (WARK or WERKE, also Heton) that might help fill in these blanks? Jim CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE: This e-mail message, including any attachments, is for the sole use of the intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and privileged information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply e-mail and destroy all copies of the original message.

Jim, Thank you so much for your help. It sounds as though you have a lot of experience with UK records. Grace -----Original Message----- From: JF [mailto:gen9@cox.net] Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2004 10:14 PM To: PLANTAGENET-DESCENDANTS-PROJECT-L@rootsweb.com Subject: RE: [PDP] Norman-Anglo-Irish Resources? Grace, Burke's peerage is good, but that's not to say it doesn't have some mistakes. Early publishers, in their enthusiasm, accepted submissions of family histories with less than good evidence of their accuracy. Later editors worked to progressively correct the errors and improve the accuracy (and reputation) of BP. The versions published by Burke's Peerage Limited between 1960 and 1970 (when the publishers finally went out of business), are held to be the most accurate. The current company publishing Burke's Peerage is a different company which purchased the rights to the name. Their current version, including the online database, is reputedly based on the 1970 version. The only disquieting thing is that this same company sells British peerage titles. They do a lot advertising as to how good their publications are, but the late versions published by Burke's Peerage Limited (1960-1970) are a known entity. The Complete Peerage is considered perhaps the premier reference on the peerage of the British Isles. And again, it's not without mistakes here and there. There are many good references on Scotland, depending on the family and the time period. But my first choice would be The Scots Peerage, often cited by the Complete Peerage, is an excellent source on Scottish landed and titled families. Hope this helps. Jim ============================== Gain access to over two billion names including the new Immigration Collection with an Ancestry.com free trial. Click to learn more. http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=4930&sourceid=1237

Grace, Burke's peerage is good, but that's not to say it doesn't have some mistakes. Early publishers, in their enthusiasm, accepted submissions of family histories with less than good evidence of their accuracy. Later editors worked to progressively correct the errors and improve the accuracy (and reputation) of BP. The versions published by Burke's Peerage Limited between 1960 and 1970 (when the publishers finally went out of business), are held to be the most accurate. The current company publishing Burke's Peerage is a different company which purchased the rights to the name. Their current version, including the online database, is reputedly based on the 1970 version. The only disquieting thing is that this same company sells British peerage titles. They do a lot advertising as to how good their publications are, but the late versions published by Burke's Peerage Limited (1960-1970) are a known entity. The Complete Peerage is considered perhaps the premier reference on the peerage of the British Isles. And again, it's not without mistakes here and there. There are many good references on Scotland, depending on the family and the time period. But my first choice would be The Scots Peerage, often cited by the Complete Peerage, is an excellent source on Scottish landed and titled families. Hope this helps. Jim

Jim, Thanks for the tip on O'Hart and the info on Lodge. What about Burke's Peerage (online version)? Or The Complete Peerage (GEC)? Are they considered accurate? Which is the best source book for Scotland? Thanks so much, Grace -----Original Message----- From: JF [mailto:gen9@cox.net] Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2004 4:10 PM To: PLANTAGENET-DESCENDANTS-PROJECT-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PDP] Norman-Anglo-Irish Resources? Grace, Finding information on any Irish family is difficult at best. You might look into finding a copy of Lodge's Peerage of Ireland, (1764, four volumes). It's not the easiest to find, but if you can't find a print copy it is available on Microfiche. As for O'Hart's, it's reputation is far less than reliable. The Irish Pedigrees you ordered should be used with caution, if at all, and only use information that can be verified by other (reputable) sources. Jim Grace Bliss Smith wrote: >Everyone, > >I am having a devil of a time finding information about some old >Norman-Anglo-Irish families. > >I have ordered Irish Pedigrees: The Origin and the Stem of the Irish Nation > > >from NEHGS. Would this book have enough information or should I also get >THE IRISH AND ANGLO-IRISH LANDED GENTRY, When Cromwell Came to Ireland; or, >A Supplement to Irish Pedigrees. > >Are there other books you might recommend? > ============================== Gain access to over two billion names including the new Immigration Collection with an Ancestry.com free trial. Click to learn more. http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=4930&sourceid=1237