Kevin, There is quite a lot about the Rudyard family (preceding your step 10) including their acquisition of land around Dieulacress Abbey in Leek in John Sleigh (1862) `A History of the Ancient Parish of Leek'. Some may be interested in a bit of local history as a background. Dieulacress Abbey was founded by Ranulph Blundeville, earl of Chester (who was a close associate of king John and who married the widow of John's older brother Geoffrey). Its name is said to derive from the utterance (in French) of Blundeville's wife "God increase it" (cf. the augmentative function of the vegetable soul). Not a lot remains from the Abbey. There is however a very usual font in St Mary's, Stafford which is believed to date from those times of the crusading Richard I and his younger brother John (who abnormally for the early Plantagenets spent a lot of his time in England and bore such titles as Lord of Ireland and Lord of Lancaster). Near the bottom, the font has lions trampling on apes and the inscription (in Latin) "You are not wise if you do not flee from lions". Near the top the font has naked women (very unusual for a Western European Christian church) and a damaged insciption (in Latin) "Thou bearest from Jerusalem ???? endowing me with grace and beauty". I understand there is Christian reference to "resisting lions" but this is rather different. Some have commented on a possible connection to the Knights Templars at Keele though there is no real evidence to support a connection t0o them. Others have commented on ancient legends of the "Black men of Biddulph Moor", said to relate to middle eastern bailiffs (said to be the origins of the surname Bailey) and concubines brought back to the locality. John -- . . John S Plant PhD MBCS MIDI KLUO . Chartered Information Systems Practitioner .......unifying cerebral creativity with intelligent algorithms Tel.(01782)58 3064 : j.s.plant@isc.keele.ac.uk :: Computing Services, Fax.(01782)58 3636 : helpdesk@isc.keele.ac.uk ::: Keele Information Services. .....Dr.J.S.Plant,Computing Services,Keele University,Staffordshire,ST5 5BG.

Updated with new sources: Thomas Rudyard Descent from Edward III LINE # 1. Edward III of England, b. November 13, 1312, Windsor Castle, co. Berks., d. June 21, 1377, Shene Palace, Richmond, Surrey = Philippa of Hainault [descendant of Henry II], b. June 24, 1311, Valenciennes, France, d. August 15, 1369, Windsor Castle, co. Berks. [8] [12] [23] [24] 2. John of Gaunt, 2nd duke of Lancaster, b. March 1339/40, St. Bavon's Abbey, Ghent, Flanders, d. February 03, 1398/99, Leicester Castle, co. Leicester = Katherine de Roet, b. abt. 1350, d. May 10, 1403. [8] [9] [12] [15] [23] [24] 3. John Beaufort, marquess of Somerset, b. abt. 1371, Kettlethorpe Manor, nr. Pottersgate, co. Lincoln, d. March 16, 1409/10, St. Catherine-by-the-Tower Hospital, London = Margaret de Holand [descendant of Edward I], b. abt. 1381, Upholand, co. Lancs., d. December 30, 1439, St. Saviour's Monastery, Bermondsey, Surrey. [8] [9] [12] [15] [23] 4. Edmund Beaufort, 2nd duke of Somerset, b. abt. 1406, Westminster, co. Middlesex, d. May 22, 1455, 1st Battle of St. Alban's = Alianore de Beauchamp [descendant of Edward I], b. September 1408, Walthamstow, co. Essex, d. March 06, 1466/67, Baynard's Castle, London. [8] [9] [12] [23] 5. Anne Beaufort, d. aft. 1496 = William Paston, Knt., Justice of the Court of Common Pleas; b. 28 May 1436, Paston, co. Norfolk, d. 1496, Paston; son of William Paston by Agnes, daughter of Sir Edmund Berry. [9] [12] [13] [15] [18] [22] 6. Anne Paston, d. bef. 1530 = Sir Gilbert Talbot [descendant of Edward III], b. abt. 1476, d. 22 Oct. 1542, Grafton Manor, co. Worcs.; son of Gilbert Talbot, Knt., of co. Salop by Elizabeth, widow of Thomas 5th baron Scrope of Masham and da. of Ralph 5th baron Greystoke by Elizabeth de Ferrers. [8] [9] [12] [14] [15] [16] [18] [22] [23] [24] 7. Elizabeth Talbot, d. bef. 19 Oct. 1542 = John Lyttelton, Esq., of Frankley Manor, co. Worcs., b. abt. 1500, d. 17 May 1532; son of William Lyttelton, Knt., of Frankley Manor by Mary Whittington. [1] [2] [7] [14] [15] [16] [18] [22] 8. Roger Lyttelton, Esq., d. bef. 11 Jan. 1588/89, Groveley, co. Warwick = Elizabeth Stanley [descendant of Edward I], da. of John Stanley of Bromwich Hall by Cecily Freebody. [2] [3] [7] [14] [16] 9. Bridget Lyttelton, d. aft. Sept. 1621 = Henry James, of Flyford Flavell, co. Worcs., son of Edmund James of Astley, co. Worcs. [3] [4] [7] [16] [21] 10. Anne James, d. aft. Sept. 1621 = Thomas Rudyard, d. 1626, of Deulacres, Leek, co. Staffs., son of Thomas Rudyard of Rudyard by Elizabeth, da. of John Osbaldston of Nethercote, co. Oxon. [4] [10] [21] 11. Anthony Rudyard, b. abt. 1610, Deulacres Abbey, Leek, co. Staffs, d. Mar. 1661/62, Deulacres, Leek; magistrate of Leek, 1654-1660 = Anne Newton [descendant of Edward I], b. abt. 1615, Wilmslow, co. Cheshire, d. Mar. 1657/58, da. of William Newton of Wilmslow by Margery, da. of Lawrence Wright of Nantwich, co. Cheshire. [4] [5] [10] [11] [19] [20] [21] 12. Thomas Rudyard, b. 1640, Leek, co. Staffs., d. 1692, Bridgetown, Barbados; attorney in the Guildhall, London; author of tracts for the London Society of Friends; associate and attorney of William Penn; original purchaser of PA; proprietor of East Jersey; deputy-governor of East Jersey 1682-1684; attorney-general of New York = Alice [Boscowen]. [5] [6] [10] [17] [19] [20] [21] Primary Documents: PCC wills, obtained from "Documents Online" at http://www.documentsonline.pro.gov.uk/ : [1] John Lyttelton, Esq., of Frankley, proved 1532 [PROB 11/24] [line 7]. [2] John Littleton, Knt., of Frankley, proved 1590 [PROB 11/75]. Among the legatees are "George Littleton eldest sonne of my deare and loving brother Roger Littleton esquire, deceastd" and "Humphrey Littleton one other of the sonnes of my said brother Roger Littleton" [lines 7-8]. [3] George Littleton of the Inner Temple, London, proved 1601 [PROB 11/96]. He gives to his "Sister James [Bridget] fyve pounds" [lines 8-9]. [4] Thomas Rudyard of Deulacres, co. Staffs., proved 1626 [PROB 11/139]. To "Mrs. Brigett James, my mother in lawe, my best nagg or mare which I shall fortune to have at the tyme of my death" [lines 9-11]. [5] Anthony Rudyard of Deulacres, co. Staffs., proved 1661 [PROB 11/310] [lines 11-12]. Secondary References: [6] Braithwaite, A. "Thomas Rudyard: early Friends' 'Oracle of Law.'" Journal of the Friends' Historical Society [London, Autumn 1956], pps. 5-19 [line 12]. [7] Butler, A., ed. The visitation of Worcestershire 1634 [Harleian Society Publications, London, 1938], p. 62 [lines 7-9]. [8] Cockayne, G. The complete peerage [St. Catherine Press, London, 1949], IV, pps. 39-44 [lines 1-3], VII, pps. 410-416 [lines 1-2]; XI, pps. 569, 706 note (a), 717 note (d), 731 chart [line 6], XII/1, pps. 49-53 [line 4]. [9] Dugdale, W. The baronage of England [G. Olms, Hildesheim ; New York, 1977], v. 1, pps. 325 chart, 331 [line 6], v. 2, pps. 114-119, 121-4 [lines 2-5]. [10] Dugdale, W., Rylands, W., & Armytage, G., eds. Staffordshire pedigrees based on the visitation of that county [Harleian Society Publications, London, 1912], v. 63, p. 95 [lines 10-12]. [11] Earwaker, J. East Cheshire: past and present [London: privately printed, 1877], v. 1, p. 128 [line 11]. [12] Faris, D. Plantagenet ancestry of seventeenth-century colonists, 2nd ed. [NEHGS, Boston, 1999], pps. 109, 162-3, 285-6, 332-33, 350 [lines 1-6]. [13] Gies, F. & J. A medieval family: the Pastons of fifteenth-century England [Harper Collins, New York, 1999], p. 368 [line 5]. [14] Jeayes, I. Descriptive catalogue of the charters & muniments of the Lyttelton family [Chas. J. Clark, London, 1893], xv, xvi, 107-108 [no. 434]. John Lyttelton of Frankley settles on his wife Elizabeth, "daughter of Sir Gilbert Talbot," the manors of Frankley and Collesdon, co. Worc., and Cressage Manor, co. Salop" [lines 6-8]. [15] Nicolas, N. Testamenta vetusta: being illustrations from wills, of manners, customs, &c. as well as of the descents and possessions of many distinguished families. From the reign of Henry the Second to the accession of Queen Elizabeth [Nichols & son, London, 1826], v. 1, pps. 140-5 [John of Gaunt], v. 2, pps. 654 [John Lyttelton, Esq.], 695-6 [Gilbert Talbot, Jr.]. [lines 2-3, 5-7]. [16] Phillimore, W., ed. The visitation of the county of Worcester made in the year 1569 [Harleian Society Publications, London 1888], pps. 94, 133-4 [lines 6-9]. Online at: http://www.uk- genealogy.org.uk/england/Worcestershire/visitations/index.html [17] Raimo, J. Biographical directory of American colonial and revolutionary governors 1607-1789 [Meckler Books, Westport, CT, 1980], p. 205 [line 12]. [18] Reade, C. The house of Cornewall [Jakeman & Carver, Hereford, 1908], p. 219 [lines 5-7]. [19] Roberts, G. The royal descents of 500 immigrants to the American colonies or the United States : who were themselves notable or left descendants notable in American history : 2nd printing, with a bibliographical supplement, 1993-2000 [Genealogical Pub. Co., Baltimore, 2001], p. 110 [lines 11-12]. [20] Rudgers, D. "Governor Thomas Rudyard of East Jersey and his descendants in New York." The New York Genealogical and Biographical Record [Oct. 1990], v. 121, pps. 193-194 [lines 11-12]. [21] Sleigh, J. A history of the ancient parish of Leek in Staffordshire [Bemrose & Sons, London, 1883], pps. 126, 129 [lines 9-12]. [22] Wambaugh, E. Littleton's tenures in English [Fred B. Rothman & Co., Littleton, CO, 1985 reprint], intro, p. li [lines 5-7]. [23] Weis, F. Ancestral roots of certain American colonists who came to America before 1700. 7th ed., additions and corrections by Walter Lee Sheppard, Jr. ; asst. by David Faris [Genealogical Publishing Co., Baltimore, 1992], pps. 3 [lines 1-4], 10 [line 6]. [24] Weis, F. The Magna Charta sureties, 1215 : the barons name in the Magna Charta, 1215, and some of their descendants who settled in America during the early Colonial years, 4th ed., with additions and corrections by Walter Lee Sheppard, Jr., with David Faris [Genealogical Pub. Co., Baltimore, 1991], pps. 32 [line 6], 190 [lines 1-2]. ***** © 2003 by: Kevin D. Bradford, M.L.S. 315 Woodway Drive Paducah, KY 42001 kdb60@earthlink.net

-----Original Message----- From: John Poaps [mailto:jpoaps@cogeco.ca] Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2003 12:23 PM To: 'PLANTAGENET-DESCENDANTS-PROJECT-D-request@rootsweb.com' Subject: FW: Poaps and Reid families pf North Plantagenet I just checked and my family came from South Plantagenet. Sorry for the mix-up John -----Original Message----- From: John Poaps [mailto:jpoaps@cogeco.ca] Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2003 12:20 PM To: 'PLANTAGENET-DESCENDANTS-PROJECT-D-request@rootsweb.com' Subject: Poaps and Reid families pf North Plantagenet Hi Have researching the Poaps family line for years and I know that my Great Grand father John James Poapst married Margaret Jane Reid. Both these families lived in the area and my great grand father had a black smith shop in Mosse Creek, Ontario. I am trying to find other researchers to the Poaps or Reid family. Please visit my web site for further info. Thanks, John Poaps http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~poaps/

You might try posting your question to another board...this one's dedicated to the medieval-era Plantagenet dynasty and is not geographical. All the best, Kevin On Saturday, August 23, 2003, 4:25:52 PM, you wrote: JP> -----Original Message----- JP> From: John Poaps [mailto:jpoaps@cogeco.ca] JP> Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2003 12:23 PM JP> To: 'PLANTAGENET-DESCENDANTS-PROJECT-D-request@rootsweb.com' JP> Subject: FW: Poaps and Reid families pf North Plantagenet JP> I just checked and my family came from South Plantagenet. Sorry for the JP> mix-up JP> John JP> -----Original Message----- JP> From: John Poaps [mailto:jpoaps@cogeco.ca] JP> Sent: Saturday, August 23, 2003 12:20 PM JP> To: 'PLANTAGENET-DESCENDANTS-PROJECT-D-request@rootsweb.com' JP> Subject: Poaps and Reid families pf North Plantagenet JP> Hi Have researching the Poaps family line for years and I know that my JP> Great Grand father John James Poapst married Margaret Jane Reid. Both JP> these families lived in the area and my great grand father had a black JP> smith shop in Mosse Creek, Ontario. I am trying to find other JP> researchers to the Poaps or Reid family. JP> Please visit my web site for further info. JP> Thanks, John Poaps JP> http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~poaps/ JP> ============================== JP> To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online genealogy records, go to: JP> http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 -- All the best, Kevin

Hello, I am looking for any information on O'Boyle's in the Plantagenet area. Please contact me if you have any information on this family. Descendants of John P. O'Boyle 1 John P. O'Boyle . +Johanna O'Connor ........ 2 Dennis O'Boyle ........ 2 James O'Boyle ........ 2 Michael O'Boyle ........ 2 Patrick O'Boyle ........ 2 Terrence O'Boyle ............ +Ann Skelly ................... 3 John Clement O'Boyle ........ 2 Bridget O'Boyle ............ +Barnabe Larocque ........ 2 Maria O'Boyle ........ 2 Margaret O'Boyle ............ +John Villeneuve ................... 3 John P. Villeneuve ................... 3 Edmond Villeneuve ................... 3 Arthur Clement Villeneuve --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.512 / Virus Database: 309 - Release Date: 8/19/2003

Marc, I'm pretty tied up this week and may not be able to post the other lines. I'll resume posting them as soon as possible. Thanks Jim

This is another line which ties in with the last one I posted at Stephen V of Hungary. It's that of Theodora Comnena (sister to Alexius I, not to be confused with his daughter, also Theodora Comnena). Jim (1) Diogenes Romanus , Byzantine Emperor[1] (2) Constantios Diogenes[2],[3],[4] dd. 1074, Antoich[5],[6] & Theodora Comnena[7],[6] bd. abt 1053[6] (3) Anna Diogenissa[4] & Uros I , Prince of Serbia[8],[4] bd. ca 1080[4] dd. aft 1130[4] (4) Helena (Jelena) , Princess of Serbia[8] dd. aft 1146[9] & Bela II "the Blind" , King of Hungary[10],[9] (5) Géza II of Hungary , King of Hungary[11],[10],[12] & Euphrosyne Mstislawna Princess of Kiev[11],[10] dd. bef 1186[13] m. 1146[15] (6) Bela III of Hungary , King of Hungary*[11],[17],[18],[19] bd. abt 1154[18] dd. 23 Apr 1196[15],[20] & Agnes de Chatillon[15],[21],[18],[22] bd. 1153[15] dd. 1184[15] m. ca 1171[15],[23] (7) Andrew (Andreas) II , King of Hungary*[24],[25],[26],[27] bd. 1176[27] dd. 26 Oct 1235[24],[28],[27] & Gertrude von Meran[24] dd. ca 1214[27] m. bef 1203 (8) Béla IV of Hungary , King of Hungary[17],[29],[30],[27] bd. 1206[31] dd. 3 May 1270[31] & Maria Laskarina[17],[30] dd. 1270[30] m. 1218[31] (9) Stephen V King of Hungary & Croatia[17],[32],[33] bd. Dec 1239[31] dd. 1 Aug 1272[34],[31] & Elizabeth of Kumanien[17],[33],[31] dd. aft 1290[31] (7) Andrew (Andreas) II , King of Hungary*[24],[25],[26],[27] bd. 1176[27] dd. 26 Oct 1235[24],[28],[27] & Yolande de Courtenay , Queen of Hungary[24],[35],[28] bd. abt 1200[28] dd. 1233[15],[28] m. 1215[15],[18],[28] 1. Anna Comnena, The Alexiad of Anna Comnena, Translated by E.R.A. Sewter, Penguin Books, 1969, p. 296 n8. 2. Anna Comnena, The Alexiad of Anna Comnena, Translated by E.R.A. Sewter, Penguin Books, 1969, pp. 296 & 296 n8. 3. Detlev Schwennicke, Europäische Stammtafeln: Stammtafeln zur Geschichte der Europäischen Staaten, Neue Folge, Marburg, Germany: Verlag von J. A. Stargardt, Band II: Die Ausserdeutschen Staaten Die Regierenden Häuser der Übrigen Staaten Europas, 1984, Tafel 174. 4. Detlev Schwennicke, Europäische Stammtafeln: Stammtafeln zur Geschichte der Europäischen Staaten, Neue Folge, Marburg, Germany: Verlag von J. A. Stargardt, Band III Teilband 1, Herzogs und Grafenhäuser des Heiligen Römischen Reiches Andere Europäiche Fürstenhäuser, 1984, Tafel 181. 5. Anna Comnena, The Alexiad of Anna Comnena, Translated by E.R.A. Sewter, Penguin Books, 1969, p. 296. 6. Detlev Schwennicke, Europäische Stammtafeln: Stammtafeln zur Geschichte der Europäischen Staaten, Neue Folge, Marburg, Germany: Verlag von J. A. Stargardt, Band II: Die Ausserdeutschen Staaten Die Regierenden Häuser der Übrigen Staaten Europas, 1984, Tafel 174. 7. Anna Comnena, The Alexiad of Anna Comnena, Translated by E.R.A. Sewter, Penguin Books, 1969, pp. 296-97. 8. Detlev Schwennicke, Europäische Stammtafeln: Stammtafeln zur Geschichte der Europäischen Staaten, Neue Folge, Marburg, Germany: Verlag von J. A. Stargardt, Band II: Die Ausserdeutschen Staaten Die Regierenden Häuser der Übrigen Staaten Europas, 1984, Tafel 154. 9. Detlev Schwennicke, Europäische Stammtafeln: Stammtafeln zur Geschichte der Europäischen Staaten, Neue Folge, Marburg, Germany: Verlag von J. A. Stargardt, Band II: Die Ausserdeutschen Staaten Die Regierenden Häuser der Übrigen Staaten Europas, 1984, Tafel 143. 10. Frederick Lewis Weis, Ancestral Roots of Certain American Colonists, Who Came To America before 1700, Additions and Corrections by Walter Lee Sheppard, Jr., Genealogical Publishing Co., Inc., Seventh Edition 1992, 1993, Line 242-9. 11. Mike Ashley, The Mammoth Book of British Kings & Queens, Carol & Graf Publishers, Inc., NY, 1999. 12. Detlev Schwennicke, Europäische Stammtafeln: Stammtafeln zur Geschichte der Europäischen Staaten, Neue Folge, Marburg, Germany: Verlag von J. A. Stargardt, Band I: Die Deutschen Staaten, 1980, Tafel 39, 55. 13. Frederick Lewis Weis, Ancestral Roots of Certain American Colonists, Who Came To America before 1700, Additions and Corrections by Walter Lee Sheppard, Jr., Genealogical Publishing Co., Inc., Seventh Edition 1992, 1993. 14. Brian Tompsett, “Directory of Royal Genealogical Data, University of Hull, UK, http://www.dcs.hull.ac.uk/cgi-bin/gedlkup/n=royal,” Web Site, Information from this site should be verified by other sources. 17. Frederick Lewis Weis, Ancestral Roots of Certain American Colonists, Who Came To America before 1700, Additions and Corrections by Walter Lee Sheppard, Jr., Genealogical Publishing Co., Inc., Seventh Edition 1992, 1993, p. 98, Line 103. 18. Brigitte Gastel Lloyd, “Brigitte's Pages,” http://worldroots.clicktron.com/brigitte/famous/o/ottoorseololine.htm, Jan 3, 2001. 19. Detlev Schwennicke, Europäische Stammtafeln: Stammtafeln zur Geschichte der Europäischen Staaten, Neue Folge, Marburg, Germany: Verlag von J. A. Stargardt, Band II: Die Ausserdeutschen Staaten Die Regierenden Häuser der Übrigen Staaten Europas, 1984, Tafel 11. 20. Detlev Schwennicke, Europäische Stammtafeln: Stammtafeln zur Geschichte der Europäischen Staaten, Neue Folge, Marburg, Germany: Verlag von J. A. Stargardt, Band II: Die Ausserdeutschen Staaten Die Regierenden Häuser der Übrigen Staaten Europas, 1984, 23 Apr 1196. 21. Frederick Lewis Weis, Ancestral Roots of Certain American Colonists, Who Came To America before 1700, Additions and Corrections by Walter Lee Sheppard, Jr., Genealogical Publishing Co., Inc., Seventh Edition 1992, 1993, Line 103-27, 292-10. 22. Detlev Schwennicke, Europäische Stammtafeln: Stammtafeln zur Geschichte der Europäischen Staaten, Neue Folge, Marburg, Germany: Verlag von J. A. Stargardt, Band III Teilband 1, Herzogs und Grafenhäuser des Heiligen Römischen Reiches Andere Europäiche Fürstenhäuser, 1984, Tafel 154. 23. Frederick Lewis Weis, Ancestral Roots of Certain American Colonists, Who Came To America before 1700, Additions and Corrections by Walter Lee Sheppard, Jr., Genealogical Publishing Co., Inc., Seventh Edition 1992, 1993, Line 242-10. 24. Mike Ashley, The Mammoth Book of British Kings & Queens, Carol & Graf Publishers, Inc., NY, 1999, p. 496. 25. Frederick Lewis Weis, Ancestral Roots of Certain American Colonists, Who Came To America before 1700, Additions and Corrections by Walter Lee Sheppard, Jr., Genealogical Publishing Co., Inc., Seventh Edition 1992, 1993, Line 103, 105. 26. Detlev Schwennicke, Europäische Stammtafeln: Stammtafeln zur Geschichte der Europäischen Staaten, Neue Folge, Marburg, Germany: Verlag von J. A. Stargardt, Band II: Die Ausserdeutschen Staaten Die Regierenden Häuser der Übrigen Staaten Europas, 1984, Tafel 155, 17. 27. W.H. Turton, The Plantagenet Ancestry, Genealogical Publishing Co., Baltimore, 1968, p. 26. 28. Detlev Schwennicke, Europäische Stammtafeln: Stammtafeln zur Geschichte der Europäischen Staaten, Neue Folge, Marburg, Germany: Verlag von J. A. Stargardt, Band II: Die Ausserdeutschen Staaten Die Regierenden Häuser der Übrigen Staaten Europas, 1984, Tafel 17. 29. Detlev Schwennicke, Europäische Stammtafeln: Stammtafeln zur Geschichte der Europäischen Staaten, Neue Folge, Marburg, Germany: Verlag von J. A. Stargardt, Band I: Die Deutschen Staaten, 1980, Tafel 23. 30. Detlev Schwennicke, Europäische Stammtafeln: Stammtafeln zur Geschichte der Europäischen Staaten, Neue Folge, Marburg, Germany: Verlag von J. A. Stargardt, Band II: Die Ausserdeutschen Staaten Die Regierenden Häuser der Übrigen Staaten Europas, 1984, Tafel 155, 182. 31. Detlev Schwennicke, Europäische Stammtafeln: Stammtafeln zur Geschichte der Europäischen Staaten, Neue Folge, Marburg, Germany: Verlag von J. A. Stargardt, Band II: Die Ausserdeutschen Staaten Die Regierenden Häuser der Übrigen Staaten Europas, 1984, Tafel 155. 32. Detlev Schwennicke, Europäische Stammtafeln: Stammtafeln zur Geschichte der Europäischen Staaten, Neue Folge, Marburg, Germany: Verlag von J. A. Stargardt, Band II: Die Ausserdeutschen Staaten Die Regierenden Häuser der Übrigen Staaten Europas, 1984, Tafel 15, 155. 33. Steven Runciman, The Sicilian Vespers, A History of The Mediterranean World in the Later Thirteenth Century, Cambridge University Press, Cambridge, 1995, 1998, p. 138. 34. Frederick Lewis Weis, Ancestral Roots of Certain American Colonists, Who Came To America before 1700, Additions and Corrections by Walter Lee Sheppard, Jr., Genealogical Publishing Co., Inc., Seventh Edition 1992, 1993, Line 103. 35. Frederick Lewis Weis, Ancestral Roots of Certain American Colonists, Who Came To America before 1700, Additions and Corrections by Walter Lee Sheppard, Jr., Genealogical Publishing Co., Inc., Seventh Edition 1992, 1993, Line 105.

Here is the second line from the Byzantine Emperors to the Plantagenet kings. Jim (1) Alexius I Comnenus , Byzantine Emperor[1],[2],[3],[4] bd. 1056[5] dd. 15 Aug 1118[6],[4] & Irene "Augusta" Ducas , Byzantine Empress[1],[7],[8],[4] bd. 1066[9],[4] dd. ca 19 Feb 1123, a convent as a nun[4] m. ca 1078[7],[4] (2) Theodora Comnenus , Byzantine Princess[7],[10],[11] bd. 15 Jan 1096[12] & Constantine Angelus[7],[13],[14] dd. Antioch[5] (3) Andronikos Angelus , Kuroplates[7],[15] & Eurosyne Castamonita[7],[11] (4) Alexius III Angelus , Byzantine Emperor[16],[17],[18],[19],[20] dd. aft 1211, in prison[11] & Euphrosyne Dukaina Kamaterina[11],[21],[20] (5) Anna Angelina*[15],[18] dd. 1212[18] & Issac Komnenos , Sebastokrator[18] (5) Anna Angelina*[15],[18] dd. 1212[18] & Theodore I Lascaris , Byzantine Emperor[22],[23],[24],[25] bd. ca 1174[25],[26] dd. Aug 1222[27],[18] m. 1199, Fruhjahr[18] (6) Maria Laskarina[22],[23] dd. 1270[23] & Béla IV of Hungary , King of Hungary[22],[28],[23],[29] bd. 1206[30] dd. 3 May 1270[30] m. 1218[30] (7) Stephen V King of Hungary & Croatia[22],[31],[32] bd. Dec 1239[30] dd. 1 Aug 1272[33],[30] & Elizabeth of Kumanien[22],[32],[30] dd. aft 1290[30] (8) Mary , Princess of Hungary[22],[31],[32] dd. 25 Mar 1323, she was assassinated[33],[34] & Charles II "the Lame" d'Anjou , King of Naples[35],[32] bd. 1254[34] dd. 1309, Casanuova at Naples, Italy[36],[37] m. 1270[38],[34] (9) Marguerite d'Anjou , Countess of Anjou[22],[34] bd. abt 1273[34] dd. 31 Dec 1299[34] & Charles I von Frankenreich , Count of Valois[22],[27],[39],[40],[41] dd. 16 Dec 1325[34] m. 16 Aug 1290, Corbeil[38],[34] (10) Jeanne de Valois[42],[43],[44] bd. abt 1294[44] dd. 7 Mar 1342[44] & William III d'Avesnes , Count of Holland[42],[45],[44] bd. ca 1286[44] dd. 7 Jun 1337, Valenciennes[46],[44] m. 19 May 1305[46],[44] (11) Philippa of Hainaut[47],[48],[22],[49],[50],[51],[44] bd. 24 Jun 1311, Valenciennes[52],[53],[44] dd. 15 Aug 1369, Windsor Castle, Windsor, Berkshire, England[47],[52],[44] & Edward III , King of England[54],[48],[55],[49],[56],[57],[44] bd. 13 Nov 1312, Windsor Castle, Windsor, Berkshire, England[47],[52] dd. 21 Jun 1377, Sheen Palace, Surrey[58],[52] m. 24 Jan 1329, York Minister[47],[44] (4) Isaac II Angelus , Byzantine Emperor*[7],[59],[17],[60],[12] bd. abt 1155[11] dd. 1195[15] & NN[11] (5) Irene Angelus , of Byzantium*[7],[61],[62] bd. 1172[62] dd. 27 Aug 1208, Hohenstaufen, Germany, murdered[62] & Roger , Duke of Apulia[62],[63] dd. ca 1193[62],[64] (5) Irene Angelus , of Byzantium*[7],[61],[62] bd. 1172[62] dd. 27 Aug 1208, Hohenstaufen, Germany, murdered[62] & Philip II of Swabia von Hohenstaufens , Holy Roman Emperor[7],[61],[17],[65] bd. abt 1176[38],[62] dd. 21 Jun 1208, Bamburg Germany, murdered[38],[62] m. 25 May 1197[38],[62],[64] (6) Maria of Swabia von Hohenstaufens , Princess of Germany[7],[66] bd. abt 1201[66] dd. 1235[66] & Henry II "the Courageous" , Duke of Brabant[7],[67],[68],[66],[41] bd. abt 1207[38] dd. 1 FEB 1247/48, Louvain, Brabant, Belgium[38],[69],[62] m. bef 22 Aug 1215[38] (7) Henry III of Brabant , Duke of Brabant[38],[69],[70],[71] dd. 28 FEB 1260/61[38] & Alix (Adelheid) of Burgundy[38],[69],[70] dd. 23 Oct 1273[70] m. 1251[38] (8) Marie of Brabant[38],[69] bd. ca 1256, Lions, France[71] dd. 12 Jan 1321, Murel at Meulant[38],[69],[71] & Philip III "le Hardi" Capet , King of France[38],[72],[73],[74],[71] bd. 1 May 1245, Poissy, France[38],[69],[71] dd. 5 Oct 1285, Perpignan[38],[69],[71] m. 24 Aug 1274, Vincennes[69],[71] (9) Marguerite , of France[38],[48],[69] bd. ca 1275[71] dd. 14 Feb 1318, London, England[71] & Edward I "Longshanks" , King of England[38],[48],[42],[75],[76],[77],[78],[79],[80],[71] bd. 17-18 Jun 1239, Westminster Palace, London, England[52] dd. 8 Jul 1307, Burgh-on-the-Sands, Cumberland[52] m. 10 Sep 1299, Canterbury Cathedral, Canterbury, Kent[38],[71] (4) Isaac II Angelus , Byzantine Emperor*[7],[59],[17],[60],[12] bd. abt 1155[11] dd. 1195[15] & Irene Comnenus,[12] m. Summer 1183[12] (4) Isaac II Angelus , Byzantine Emperor*[7],[59],[17],[60],[12] bd. abt 1155[11] dd. 1195[15] & Maria (Margaret) , of Hungary[27],[82] bd. ca 1175[82] dd. aft 1223[83] m. 1185[82] 1. Anna Comnena, The Alexiad of Anna Comnena, Translated by E.R.A. Sewter, Penguin Books, 1969, passim. 2. Frederick Lewis Weis, Ancestral Roots of Certain American Colonists, Who Came To America before 1700, Additions and Corrections by Walter Lee Sheppard, Jr., Genealogical Publishing Co., Inc., Seventh Edition 1992, 1993, Line 45, 105A. 3. George Ostrogorsky, History of the Byzantine State, Translated by Joan Hussey, Rutgers University Press, New Brunswick, N.J., 1999, pp. 356-375. 4. Detlev Schwennicke, Europäische Stammtafeln: Stammtafeln zur Geschichte der Europäischen Staaten, Neue Folge, Marburg, Germany: Verlag von J. A. Stargardt, Band II: Die Ausserdeutschen Staaten Die Regierenden Häuser der Übrigen Staaten Europas, 1984, Tafel 178. 5. Anna Comnena, The Alexiad of Anna Comnena, Translated by E.R.A. Sewter, Penguin Books, 1969. 6. Anna Comnena, The Alexiad of Anna Comnena, Translated by E.R.A. Sewter, Penguin Books, 1969, p. 525. 7. Frederick Lewis Weis, Ancestral Roots of Certain American Colonists, Who Came To America before 1700, Additions and Corrections by Walter Lee Sheppard, Jr., Genealogical Publishing Co., Inc., Seventh Edition 1992, 1993, Line 45. 8. George Ostrogorsky, History of the Byzantine State, Translated by Joan Hussey, Rutgers University Press, New Brunswick, N.J., 1999, p. 349. 9. George Andrews Moriarty, The Plantagenet Ancestry of King Edward III and Queen Philippa, Mormon Pioneer Genealogy Society, Salt Lake City, UT, 1985, p. 138 "c.1065". 10. George Ostrogorsky, History of the Byzantine State, Translated by Joan Hussey, Rutgers University Press, New Brunswick, N.J., 1999, p. 401. 11. Detlev Schwennicke, Europäische Stammtafeln: Stammtafeln zur Geschichte der Europäischen Staaten, Neue Folge, Marburg, Germany: Verlag von J. A. Stargardt, Band II: Die Ausserdeutschen Staaten Die Regierenden Häuser der Übrigen Staaten Europas, 1984, Tafel 179. 12. Detlev Schwennicke, Europäische Stammtafeln: Stammtafeln zur Geschichte der Europäischen Staaten, Neue Folge, Marburg, Germany: Verlag von J. A. Stargardt, Band II: Die Ausserdeutschen Staaten Die Regierenden Häuser der Übrigen Staaten Europas, 1984, Tafel 175. 13. George Ostrogorsky, History of the Byzantine State, Translated by Joan Hussey, Rutgers University Press, New Brunswick, N.J., 1999, p. 577, Chart 6. Dynasty of the Comneni 1081-1085. 14. Detlev Schwennicke, Europäische Stammtafeln: Stammtafeln zur Geschichte der Europäischen Staaten, Neue Folge, Marburg, Germany: Verlag von J. A. Stargardt, Band II: Die Ausserdeutschen Staaten Die Regierenden Häuser der Übrigen Staaten Europas, 1984, Tafel 175, 179. 15. George Ostrogorsky, History of the Byzantine State, Translated by Joan Hussey, Rutgers University Press, New Brunswick, N.J., 1999. 16. George Ostrogorsky, History of the Byzantine State, Translated by Joan Hussey, Rutgers University Press, New Brunswick, N.J., 1999, pp. 408, 410-16, 425, 429. 17. Geoffrey de Villehardouin (1160-1213), Memoirs or Chronicla of the Fourth Crusade and the Conquest of Constantinople, Translated by Frank T. Marzails, J.M. Dent, London, 1908, http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis/villehardouin.html. 18. Detlev Schwennicke, Europäische Stammtafeln: Stammtafeln zur Geschichte der Europäischen Staaten, Neue Folge, Marburg, Germany: Verlag von J. A. Stargardt, Band II: Die Ausserdeutschen Staaten Die Regierenden Häuser der Übrigen Staaten Europas, 1984, Tafel 182. 19. John Julius Norwich, Byzatium, The Decline and Fall, Alfred A. Knopf, Inc, 2000, pp. 156, 163, 171-72. 20. Robert Browning, The Byzantine Empire, Weidenfeld and Nicolsen, London, 1980, p. 136. 21. John Julius Norwich, Byzatium, The Decline and Fall, Alfred A. Knopf, Inc, 2000, p. 178. 22. Frederick Lewis Weis, Ancestral Roots of Certain American Colonists, Who Came To America before 1700, Additions and Corrections by Walter Lee Sheppard, Jr., Genealogical Publishing Co., Inc., Seventh Edition 1992, 1993, p. 98, Line 103. 23. Detlev Schwennicke, Europäische Stammtafeln: Stammtafeln zur Geschichte der Europäischen Staaten, Neue Folge, Marburg, Germany: Verlag von J. A. Stargardt, Band II: Die Ausserdeutschen Staaten Die Regierenden Häuser der Übrigen Staaten Europas, 1984, Tafel 155, 182. 24. George Ostrogorsky, History of the Byzantine State, Translated by Joan Hussey, Rutgers University Press, New Brunswick, N.J., 1999, pp. 425-34. 25. “"Theodore I Lascaris",” Britannica 2001 DVD-ROM, Britannica.com, Inc., March 31, 2001. 26. Detlev Schwennicke, Europäische Stammtafeln: Stammtafeln zur Geschichte der Europäischen Staaten, Neue Folge, Marburg, Germany: Verlag von J. A. Stargardt, Band II: Die Ausserdeutschen Staaten Die Regierenden Häuser der Übrigen Staaten Europas, 1984, Tafel 182 "1175". 27. Brigitte Gastel Lloyd, “Brigitte's Pages,” http://worldroots.clicktron.com/brigitte/famous/o/ottoorseololine.htm, Jan 3, 2001. 28. Detlev Schwennicke, Europäische Stammtafeln: Stammtafeln zur Geschichte der Europäischen Staaten, Neue Folge, Marburg, Germany: Verlag von J. A. Stargardt, Band I: Die Deutschen Staaten, 1980, Tafel 23. 29. W.H. Turton, The Plantagenet Ancestry, Genealogical Publishing Co., Baltimore, 1968, p. 26. 30. Detlev Schwennicke, Europäische Stammtafeln: Stammtafeln zur Geschichte der Europäischen Staaten, Neue Folge, Marburg, Germany: Verlag von J. A. Stargardt, Band II: Die Ausserdeutschen Staaten Die Regierenden Häuser der Übrigen Staaten Europas, 1984, Tafel 155. 31. Detlev Schwennicke, Europäische Stammtafeln: Stammtafeln zur Geschichte der Europäischen Staaten, Neue Folge, Marburg, Germany: Verlag von J. A. Stargardt, Band II: Die Ausserdeutschen Staaten Die Regierenden Häuser der Übrigen Staaten Europas, 1984, Tafel 15, 155. 32. Steven Runciman, The Sicilian Vespers, A History of The Mediterranean World in the Later Thirteenth Century, Cambridge University Press, Cambridge, 1995, 1998, p. 138. 33. Frederick Lewis Weis, Ancestral Roots of Certain American Colonists, Who Came To America before 1700, Additions and Corrections by Walter Lee Sheppard, Jr., Genealogical Publishing Co., Inc., Seventh Edition 1992, 1993, Line 103. 34. Detlev Schwennicke, Europäische Stammtafeln: Stammtafeln zur Geschichte der Europäischen Staaten, Neue Folge, Marburg, Germany: Verlag von J. A. Stargardt, Band II: Die Ausserdeutschen Staaten Die Regierenden Häuser der Übrigen Staaten Europas, 1984, Tafel 15. 35. Frederick Lewis Weis, Ancestral Roots of Certain American Colonists, Who Came To America before 1700, Additions and Corrections by Walter Lee Sheppard, Jr., Genealogical Publishing Co., Inc., Seventh Edition 1992, 1993, LInes 103, 104. 36. Frederick Lewis Weis, Ancestral Roots of Certain American Colonists, Who Came To America before 1700, Additions and Corrections by Walter Lee Sheppard, Jr., Genealogical Publishing Co., Inc., Seventh Edition 1992, 1993, Line 103 "5 May". 37. Detlev Schwennicke, Europäische Stammtafeln: Stammtafeln zur Geschichte der Europäischen Staaten, Neue Folge, Marburg, Germany: Verlag von J. A. Stargardt, Band II: Die Ausserdeutschen Staaten Die Regierenden Häuser der Übrigen Staaten Europas, 1984, Tafel 15 "6 May", 155 "6 Jun". 38. Brian Tompsett, “Directory of Royal Genealogical Data, University of Hull, UK, http://www.dcs.hull.ac.uk/cgi-bin/gedlkup/n=royal,” Web Site, Information from this site should be verified by other sources. 39. Paul Theroff, “Paul Theroff's dynastic genealogy files,” Bridget's Pages, http://worldroots.clicktron.com/brigitte/pther_e.html, Feb 7, 2001. 40. Detlev Schwennicke, Europäische Stammtafeln: Stammtafeln zur Geschichte der Europäischen Staaten, Neue Folge, Marburg, Germany: Verlag von J. A. Stargardt, Band II: Die Ausserdeutschen Staaten Die Regierenden Häuser der Übrigen Staaten Europas, 1984, Tafel 4, 12, 15, 17. 41. Detlev Schwennicke, Europäische Stammtafeln: Stammtafeln zur Geschichte der Europäischen Staaten, Neue Folge, Marburg, Germany: Verlag von J. A. Stargardt, Band III Teilband 1, Herzogs und Grafenhäuser des Heiligen Römischen Reiches Andere Europäiche Fürstenhäuser, 1984, Tafel 70. 42. Mike Ashley, The Mammoth Book of British Kings & Queens, Carol & Graf Publishers, Inc., NY, 1999. 43. Frederick Lewis Weis, Ancestral Roots of Certain American Colonists, Who Came To America before 1700, Additions and Corrections by Walter Lee Sheppard, Jr., Genealogical Publishing Co., Inc., Seventh Edition 1992, 1993, Line 103-33, 168-31. 44. Detlev Schwennicke, Europäische Stammtafeln: Stammtafeln zur Geschichte der Europäischen Staaten, Neue Folge, Marburg, Germany: Verlag von J. A. Stargardt, Band II: Die Ausserdeutschen Staaten Die Regierenden Häuser der Übrigen Staaten Europas, 1984, Tafel 4. 45. Frederick Lewis Weis, Ancestral Roots of Certain American Colonists, Who Came To America before 1700, Additions and Corrections by Walter Lee Sheppard, Jr., Genealogical Publishing Co., Inc., Seventh Edition 1992, 1993, Line 168-31, 103-33. 46. Frederick Lewis Weis, Ancestral Roots of Certain American Colonists, Who Came To America before 1700, Additions and Corrections by Walter Lee Sheppard, Jr., Genealogical Publishing Co., Inc., Seventh Edition 1992, 1993, Line 168. 47. John Burke & Sir Bernard Burke, C.B., Burke's Peerage, Baronetage, and Knightage, Edited by Peter Townsend, Burke's Peerage Ltd.,London, MCMLXIII (1963), p. lx. 48. Elizabeth Hallam, ed., Chronicles of the Age of Chivalry, CLB/Quadrillion Publishing Ltd., Surrey, England, 1998. 49. David Faris, Plantagenet Ancestry of Seventeenth-Century Colonists, New England Historic Genealogical Society, Second Edition, 1999, p. 43. 50. George Edward Cokayne, The Complete Peerage of England Scotland Ireland Great Britain and the United Kingdom, Extant Extinct or Dormant, The Hon. Vicary Gibbs, The St. Catherine Press, Ltd., London, Volume II Bass to Canning, 1912, p. 153. 51. George Edward Cokayne, The Complete Peerage of England Scotland Ireland Great Britain and the United Kingdom, Extant Extinct or Dormant, H. A. Doubleday & Lord Howard de Walden, The St. Catherine Press, Ltd., London, Volume V, Eardley of Spalding to Goojerat, 1926, p. 736. 52. Frederick Lewis Weis, Ancestral Roots of Certain American Colonists, Who Came To America before 1700, Additions and Corrections by Walter Lee Sheppard, Jr., Genealogical Publishing Co., Inc., Seventh Edition 1992, 1993, Line 1. 53. David Faris, Plantagenet Ancestry of Seventeenth-Century Colonists, New England Historic Genealogical Society, Second Edition, 1999, p. 285. 54. John Burke & Sir Bernard Burke, C.B., Burke's Peerage, Baronetage, and Knightage, Edited by Peter Townsend, Burke's Peerage Ltd.,London, MCMLXIII (1963), pp. lx-lxi. 55. Frederick Lewis Weis, Ancestral Roots of Certain American Colonists, Who Came To America before 1700, Additions and Corrections by Walter Lee Sheppard, Jr., Genealogical Publishing Co., Inc., Seventh Edition 1992, 1993, Line 1-30, 103-34. 56. George Edward Cokayne, The Complete Peerage of England Scotland Ireland Great Britain and the United Kingdom, Extant Extinct or Dormant, H. A. Doubleday & Lord Howard de Walden, The St. Catherine Press, Ltd., London, Volume V, Eardley of Spalding to Goojerat, 1926. 57. George Edward Cokayne, The Complete Peerage of England Scotland Ireland Great Britain and the United Kingdom, Extant Extinct or Dormant, H.A. Doubleday & Lord Howard de Walden, The St. Catherine Press, Ltd., London, Volume IX Moels to Nuneham, 1936, p. 714. 58. Brian Tompsett, “Directory of Royal Genealogical Data, University of Hull, UK, http://www.dcs.hull.ac.uk/cgi-bin/gedlkup/n=royal,” Web Site, Information from this site should be verified by other sources, p. lxii. 59. George Ostrogorsky, History of the Byzantine State, Translated by Joan Hussey, Rutgers University Press, New Brunswick, N.J., 1999, pp. 401-09. 60. Detlev Schwennicke, Europäische Stammtafeln: Stammtafeln zur Geschichte der Europäischen Staaten, Neue Folge, Marburg, Germany: Verlag von J. A. Stargardt, Band I: Die Deutschen Staaten, 1980, Tafel 5, 39. 61. George Ostrogorsky, History of the Byzantine State, Translated by Joan Hussey, Rutgers University Press, New Brunswick, N.J., 1999, p. 412. 62. Detlev Schwennicke, Europäische Stammtafeln: Stammtafeln zur Geschichte der Europäischen Staaten, Neue Folge, Marburg, Germany: Verlag von J. A. Stargardt, Band I: Die Deutschen Staaten, 1980, Tafel 5. 63. Detlev Schwennicke, Europäische Stammtafeln: Stammtafeln zur Geschichte der Europäischen Staaten, Neue Folge, Marburg, Germany: Verlag von J. A. Stargardt, Band II: Die Ausserdeutschen Staaten Die Regierenden Häuser der Übrigen Staaten Europas, 1984, Tafel 206. 64. John Julius Norwich, Byzatium, The Decline and Fall, Alfred A. Knopf, Inc, 2000, p. 164. 65. Detlev Schwennicke, Europäische Stammtafeln: Stammtafeln zur Geschichte der Europäischen Staaten, Neue Folge, Marburg, Germany: Verlag von J. A. Stargardt, Band I: Die Deutschen Staaten, 1980, Tafel 5, 58, 96. 66. Detlev Schwennicke, Europäische Stammtafeln: Stammtafeln zur Geschichte der Europäischen Staaten, Neue Folge, Marburg, Germany: Verlag von J. A. Stargardt, Band I: Die Deutschen Staaten, 1980, Tafel 5, 96. 67. David Faris, Plantagenet Ancestry of Seventeenth-Century Colonists, New England Historic Genealogical Society, Second Edition, 1999, p. 202. 68. George Edward Cokayne, The Complete Peerage of England Scotland Ireland Great Britain and the United Kingdom, Extant Extinct or Dormant, H. A. Doubleday & Lord Howard de Walden, The St. Catherine Press, Ltd., London, Volume VII, Husee to Lincolnshire, 1929, p. 386. 69. Frederick Lewis Weis, Ancestral Roots of Certain American Colonists, Who Came To America before 1700, Additions and Corrections by Walter Lee Sheppard, Jr., Genealogical Publishing Co., Inc., Seventh Edition 1992, 1993. 70. Detlev Schwennicke, Europäische Stammtafeln: Stammtafeln zur Geschichte der Europäischen Staaten, Neue Folge, Marburg, Germany: Verlag von J. A. Stargardt, Band I: Die Deutschen Staaten, 1980, Tafel 96. 71. Detlev Schwennicke, Europäische Stammtafeln: Stammtafeln zur Geschichte der Europäischen Staaten, Neue Folge, Marburg, Germany: Verlag von J. A. Stargardt, Band II: Die Ausserdeutschen Staaten Die Regierenden Häuser der Übrigen Staaten Europas, 1984, Tafel 12. 72. Frederick Lewis Weis, Ancestral Roots of Certain American Colonists, Who Came To America before 1700, Additions and Corrections by Walter Lee Sheppard, Jr., Genealogical Publishing Co., Inc., Seventh Edition 1992, 1993, Line 101. 73. Rev. W.M.H. Milner, M.A., The Royal House of Britain an Enduring Dynasty, The Covenant Publishing Co., Ltd., London, Twelfth Edition Revised, 1952, early lines should be corroborated by other sources. 74. Henry John Chaytor, A History of Aragon and Catalonia, Methuen, 1933, http://libro.uca.edu/chaytor/achistory.htm. 75. Frederick Lewis Weis, Ancestral Roots of Certain American Colonists, Who Came To America before 1700, Additions and Corrections by Walter Lee Sheppard, Jr., Genealogical Publishing Co., Inc., Seventh Edition 1992, 1993, Line 16. 76. David Faris, Plantagenet Ancestry of Seventeenth-Century Colonists, New England Historic Genealogical Society, Second Edition, 1999, p. 228. 77. George Edward Cokayne, The Complete Peerage of England Scotland Ireland Great Britain and the United Kingdom, Extant Extinct or Dormant, The Hon. Vicary Gibbs, The St. Catherine Press, Ltd., London, Volume I Ab-Adam to Basing, 1910, p. 242. 78. George Edward Cokayne, The Complete Peerage of England Scotland Ireland Great Britain and the United Kingdom, Extant Extinct or Dormant, The Hon. Vicary Gibbs, The St. Catherine Press, Ltd., London, Volume II Bass to Canning, 1912, Appendix H, Chart 1. 79. George Edward Cokayne, The Complete Peerage of England Scotland Ireland Great Britain and the United Kingdom, Extant Extinct or Dormant, The Hon. Vicary Gibbs, The St. Catherine Press, Ltd., London, Volume IV Dacre to Dysart, 1916. 80. George Edward Cokayne, The Complete Peerage of England Scotland Ireland Great Britain and the United Kingdom, Extant Extinct or Dormant, Geoffrey H. White, F.S.A., F.R. Hist.S., The St. Catherine Press, Ltd., London, Volume XII, Part 1 Skelmerdale to Towton, 1953, p. 508. 82. John Julius Norwich, Byzatium, The Decline and Fall, Alfred A. Knopf, Inc, 2000, p. 157. 83. Detlev Schwennicke, Europäische Stammtafeln: Stammtafeln zur Geschichte der Europäischen Staaten, Neue Folge, Marburg, Germany: Verlag von J. A. Stargardt, Band I: Die Deutschen Staaten, 1980, Tafel 179.

Jim, > > In the longer term this is also helpful in tying down the MRCA of > > the family as a whole. > > > Let's hope the next time we hear from you you'll be able to tell us his > name, DOB, etc. I'd be interested to know what you find out about him. You are quite right to pick up on my sloppy wording here. What I really meant was more like "limiting the 90% probability range for the MRCA to within a couple of centuries" which is sufficient to be of some interest. Beyond that we would be back to old fashioned conjecture backed up by a sadly lacking amount of water-tight evidence. We can always sustain a faint hope for an interesting outcome however. I make the following comments in the context of pretty much the *most informative* that it seems could be hoped for in terms of identifying particular individuals. You will note that there is repeated use of the word *IF* below. For example *IF* a DNA link were found to confirm claims of relatedness between Plant and Plantagenet and *IF* the MRCA for the Plant family were found to confirm the *extant* documentary evidence of Plant origins in the 13th century, a conjectural finger might begin wending its way towards the lecherous king John (based on odd bits of tenuous supporting evidence) or, perhaps partly depending on the Warren DNA project, towards the 13th century Warren earls of Surrey. If the Plants were found to be related instead to persons unknown or to other families that are less fully documented, the chances of identifying particular individuals would most probably be less than this. The above *hypothetical* basis for future conjecture relates solely to Plant and Planatagenet. There are many other combinations of relatedness that *could* arise amongst the many different Plant-like names with various different implications. For example, there could be implications of geographical migration. Negative DNA results could destroy existing theories just as surely as positive DNA results could help to create new ones. For example, only two with the spelling Plante have yet been tested and they were both held to be French Canadian descendants of a 17th century imigrant from western France. However their DNA did not match showing that they could not both be descendants of the said Nicholas Plante born c1593 at Laleu, La Rochelle, France. The Plante name is clustered mostly around Aquitaine but there have not *yet* been enough Plante volunteers to arrive at any conclusions about whether the Plantes are largely a single family. I guess I am just reiterating that the DNA evidence is of a different nature from the more usual genealogical evidence but that it can be relevant to genealogical conjectures that involve specific individuals with DOBs etc. Those involved in one-name studies are accustomed to dealing with generalities about family names as well as with specific individuals. Incidentally, the measurements are of haplotypes and so they are only *indicative* of the haplogroup but it can be added that the male-line haplogroup of one of the Plante volunteers indicated ancient Middle Eastern origins (cf. ?Septamania) whereas the other was more suggestive of Scandinavian origins. The modal haplotype for the Plant family (as opposed to individuals with the spelling Plante) indicates ancient Western European (e.g. Ireland, Wales, Western France, Spain, etc) origins. Regards, John -- . . John S Plant PhD MBCS MIDI KLUO . Chartered Information Systems Practitioner .......unifying cerebral creativity with intelligent algorithms Tel.(01782)58 3064 : j.s.plant@isc.keele.ac.uk :: Computing Services, Fax.(01782)58 3636 : helpdesk@isc.keele.ac.uk ::: Keele Information Services. .....Dr.J.S.Plant,Computing Services,Keele University,Staffordshire,ST5 5BG.

Jim, > We seem to agree the DNA test are not a genealogical solution, but > rather an aid. And again, the reliability is always a question or none > of your group would have retested. In your particular application the > tests have a greater importance simply because yours is more one of a > one-name study rather than a genealogical tree. So the fact this affects > a fraction of 1% of one's overall tree and the probability factors > involved with the MRCA work better in your situation. The comment was > originally in a genealogical context however. I agree that your comments were originally in a more general genealogical context and that confusions can arise unless the differences between the objectives of different projects are pointed out. For those interested I shall try to explain some of the differences in objectives a bit further. For those who are not interested in DNA testing, read no further. We do indeed seem to agree that DNA testing at random, without any clear objective in mind, is unlikely to be informative but that there are occasions where it can be a useful aid. We seem to agree furthermore that Y-line DNA testing is most conveniently and most usefully carried within the context of a one-name society. Many who thought that they were related, because they shared the same surname, are finding from DNA testing that they are not related at all. The Plant name bucks this general trend - it was generally said that they were an assortment of unrelated gardeners whereas in fact the DNA shows that the Plants are largely a single family. Another example is the Mumma surname study which showed that those with the USA name spelling Mumma matched with the spelling Momma in Estonia but not with Mumma in Germany. This is the sort of information that Y-line testing is good for. In the Plant(agenet)-like name study so far, most of those with the spelling Plant have matched with one another and one of the Plant volunteers tells me (and I have no reason to doubt him) that he descends from the spelling Plantt. Certainly there is widespread evidence in records for the spelling Plantt. However two with the spelling Plante have not matched and we have not had any volunteers so far with the Swiss noble name Planta nor with the French name Plantard which has been claimed to have fathered *Planta* in *England* (not there is evidence of Planta as opposed to Plant in England). Nor do I yet know of any Y-line measurements for an acredited male-line descendant of the Plantagenets though the Warrens are actively testing with that objective in mind. Without boring list members with too many technical details, our objective for repeating some of the Plant tests is not primarily to check the results though it is always a bonus to be able to do so. It is more that the Plant results matched together so well that we cannot tell by our DNA results alone one Plant branch from another. The initial tests with Oxford Ancestors measured 10 markers for each volunteer and we are sending some of these to FT-DNA so that we can measure 25 markers for each volunteer. By measuring more markers we increase the chances of finding small Y-STR mutations between different branches of the Plant family, since a few such mutations can be expected to have arisen of the time span of a surname. In the longer term this is also helpful in tying down the MRCA of the family as a whole. Of the 25 newly measured markers for each volunteer 9 will be the same as those previously measured and this provides a means of checking the reliability of the test results though this was not the *primary* objective of the "repeat" measurements as I have explained. I guess not everyone on this list is interested in all of these details but hopefully this will help sweep away some of the misunderstandings that so far tend to surround the new techniques of DNA testing. I note that you are not alone in not getting a warm fuzzy feeling from hearing about the DNA techniques but, as time passes and the benefits and shortcomings become more widely known, I guess that tiny little outbreaks of warmth and fuzz might gradually begin to appear. Best wishes, John -- . . John S Plant PhD MBCS MIDI KLUO . Chartered Information Systems Practitioner .......unifying cerebral creativity with intelligent algorithms Tel.(01782)58 3064 : j.s.plant@isc.keele.ac.uk :: Computing Services, Fax.(01782)58 3636 : helpdesk@isc.keele.ac.uk ::: Keele Information Services. .....Dr.J.S.Plant,Computing Services,Keele University,Staffordshire,ST5 5BG.

John, J.S. Plant wrote: >I agree that your comments were originally in a more general >genealogical context and that confusions can arise unless the >differences between the objectives of different projects are pointed >out. > Well, mine and those I was responding to. >In the >longer term this is also helpful in tying down the MRCA of the family >as a whole. > Let's hope the next time we hear from you you'll be able to tell us his name, DOB, etc. I'd be interested to know what you find out about him. >I note that you are not alone in not getting a warm >fuzzy feeling from hearing about the DNA techniques but > John, again, what I said was I don't get a warm fuzzy feeling reading about all the DNA errors made by these labs. In the last instance alone, 1,300 criminal cases have to be reviewed for possible retrial or dismissal--according to the article. In light of this, and other similar stories we've been reading about over the past few years, your group was smart to double-check their results. >...as time >passes and the benefits and shortcomings become more widely known, I >guess that tiny little outbreaks of warmth and fuzz might gradually >begin to appear. > Perhaps instead, when more discoveries have been made that allows us to trace, say... the remaining 99.99% of our family trees, we'll have something to really get excited about. But as your group is a one-name study, these shortcomings really shouldn't hurt your efforts to find name relatedness. Jim

Gordon, Gordon Banks wrote: >I'd have to find it in a library. Cheapest price on the Internet is > >$100, and I have higher priorities for my money. > No doubt, I do also. I found a copy for about $27 some time ago and in VG condition. Often enough booksellers pick up something they just have no market for and let it go cheap. It is a very interesting book for more than just the Theuderic/Makhir question, though. Jim

John, J.S. Plant wrote: >Hi Jim, > >Mostly I am busy at the moment and staying well out of this. I >couldn't resist a brief remark on the following however... > Somehow, I'm not too surprised--given our past discussions on the limitations of genealogical DNA research. >Reliability isn't really a problem. One can always get the test done >with another testing Laboratory and see if the results are the same. >In fact that is what we are currently doing with the >Plant(agenet)-like name project, though mainly with the objective of >measuring more markers to limit the generation-range of the MRCA. I >do not really expect the results to be different, as others have >cross checked many times before and they report that, with reliable >companies, discrepancies are essentially non-existent. It is always >good to be able to double-check important results however. One of the >main strengths of the scientific method is that people can always >repeat an experiment to check its validity (unlike the situation with >an old report by one person about events). > The mere fact you and others have cross-checked information indicates it is a potential problem. Why else would any of your group re-checked their data? My only thought is that if major criminal DNA labs are having these problems, why not other labs providing less critical genealogical DNA testing? Cross checking aside, who would know? >I am not claiming that the DNA method is the answer to everything. >Far from it. In my experience the main problems are the limited range >of the situations for which DNA can give an answer, the expense of >the test (even if one doesn't repeat it), and the difficulty finding >volunteers to take the test. I do not think that the reliability of >the test is an issue however. Far from it. > We seem to agree the DNA test are not a genealogical solution, but rather an aid. And again, the reliability is always a question or none of your group would have retested. In your particular application the tests have a greater importance simply because yours is more one of a one-name study rather than a genealogical tree. So the fact this affects a fraction of 1% of one's overall tree and the probability factors involved with the MRCA work better in your situation. The comment was originally in a genealogical context however. Jim

Jim, James P. Robinson III wrote: > I have read Zuckerman, and I must say I found him unconvincing both in > his Theuderic/Makhir theory and in his larger theory of the existence > of a Jewish territorial principality on the Spanish marches. One of > the principal problems with the Theuderic/Makhir theory is that it is > based almost entirely on negative evidence and Zuckerman's > reconstruction of what he believes was left out of or revised out of > certain popular lays. At best, these songs are very tricky to tease > history out of, but when you start trying to interpolate facts into > them which admittedly are not there (the theory is that all references > that would connect Theuderic and his family with Makhir or other Jews > were purposefully omitted or removed) and then use those interpolated > facts (the ones that do not appear in the text) as the basis of your > "proof", you have a problem. At the end of the day, my personal > opinion from Zuckerman (and Nat Taylor) is that Theuderic could have > been Makhir, but that there is no credible evidence supporting the > identification. On the other had, I think that Zuckerman fails more > completely to demonstrate the existence of a territorial Jewish state > in SW France subsidiary to the Franks. Having said all of the above, > I still enjoyed Zuckerman and believe his work is important. I think Zuckerman's work is important, and his contention that records were altered in the eleventh century may explain the lack of information on a Jewish presence in Septimania. I've also seen mention of fraudulent and altered documents by other authors not connected with Zuckerman. Even so, and despite it's plausibility, I'm not completely convinced that explains the lack of information. Other sources have verified there was a Jewish presence in the marches, but vary in opinion as to it's overall importance. In all fairness, none seemed to have found it as significant as Professor Zuckerman. I have for some time thought the key to clarifying any of this lay in finding more information on the events leading up to and directly following the fall of Narbonne in 759. > I think Taylor made very good points, but I think he went too far with > them. That's another way of putting it. > Just as I feel Zuckerman failed to establish that Theuderic was > Makhir, I do not think that Taylor proved that Theuderic could not > have been Makhir. Incidently, there was a refutation of Nat Taylor's > article in one of the Augustan Society publications, but it was also > unconvincing and really rather facile. While I haven't seen the AS article, based on it's source I wouldn't particularly expect it to add a great deal to the discussion. All in all I think the book on it's own falls somewhat short of proving either premise and both subjects, that of a Carolinian/Jewish relationship and the origins of Theuderic-Makhir need more study. Thanks for your input though. Jim

I'd have to find it in a library. Cheapest price on the Internet is > $100, and I have higher priorities for my money. On Tue, 2003-08-05 at 17:01, JF wrote: > Gordon, > > Gordon Banks wrote: > > >No, it was a forwarded post from gen-medieval-l that I thought people > >here might be interested in. I haven't investigated this material > >myself. > > > Perhaps you might want to look into Zuckerman's book. It's 490 pages and > extensively footnoted, but it's an interesting read to say the least.

Hi Jim, Mostly I am busy at the moment and staying well out of this. I couldn't resist a brief remark on the following however... > Add to that the fact that potential testers have it only on good > faith (or polished advertising) that the facility itself employs > high chain of custory standards (most send the samples out to a > third party lab). One of the larger criminal DNA test facilities in > the country was in the news just last week. The charges were poor > handling procedures, undertrained staff members, sample degradation > and cross-contamination (and no, it wasn't the LAPD lab again). I > don't know about you but these stories don't give me a warm fuzzy > feeling about a test that, at best (and done in a clean facility > under stringent conditions), can only provide an indication of > relatedness. Reliability isn't really a problem. One can always get the test done with another testing Laboratory and see if the results are the same. In fact that is what we are currently doing with the Plant(agenet)-like name project, though mainly with the objective of measuring more markers to limit the generation-range of the MRCA. I do not really expect the results to be different, as others have cross checked many times before and they report that, with reliable companies, discrepancies are essentially non-existent. It is always good to be able to double-check important results however. One of the main strengths of the scientific method is that people can always repeat an experiment to check its validity (unlike the situation with an old report by one person about events). I am not claiming that the DNA method is the answer to everything. Far from it. In my experience the main problems are the limited range of the situations for which DNA can give an answer, the expense of the test (even if one doesn't repeat it), and the difficulty finding volunteers to take the test. I do not think that the reliability of the test is an issue however. Far from it. Thank you again for your contributions to the interesting debate that is going on. Being busy I am not reading all of it but I am enjoying the bits that I do read. John -- . . John S Plant PhD MBCS MIDI KLUO . Chartered Information Systems Practitioner .......unifying cerebral creativity with intelligent algorithms Tel.(01782)58 3064 : j.s.plant@isc.keele.ac.uk :: Computing Services, Fax.(01782)58 3636 : helpdesk@isc.keele.ac.uk ::: Keele Information Services. .....Dr.J.S.Plant,Computing Services,Keele University,Staffordshire,ST5 5BG.

As the clock struck 05:01 PM 8/5/2003 -0700, JF took pen in hand and wrote: >Gordon, > >Gordon Banks wrote: > >>No, it was a forwarded post from gen-medieval-l that I thought people >>here might be interested in. I haven't investigated this material >>myself. >Perhaps you might want to look into Zuckerman's book. It's 490 pages and >extensively footnoted, but it's an interesting read to say the least. Like >everything else, though, it needs verification by other sources. At the >very least, investigation of all supporting materials and documentation >would be necessary. Unfortunately, that's no small undertaking. Again, >find a copy of the book and you'll see what I mean. I have checked his >information on the counts of Toulouse several generations after >Theuderic-Makhir, and was disturbed by the fact his accounts were the >opposite of other scholarly sources. That itself doesn't diminish the work >as a whole, nor disprove the Theuderic-Makhir theory, but like everything >else, it needs to be carefully scrutinized point for point. Something I've >been unable to do time wise as yet. I have read Zuckerman, and I must say I found him unconvincing both in his Theuderic/Makhir theory and in his larger theory of the existence of a Jewish territorial principality on the Spanish marches. One of the principal problems with the Theuderic-Makhir theory is that it is based almost entirely on negative evidence and Zuckerman's reconstruction of what he believes was left out of or revised out of certain popular lays. At best, these songs are very tricky to tease history out of, but when you start trying to interpolate facts into them which admittedly are not there (the theory is that all references that would connect Theuderic and his family with Makhir or other Jews were purposefully omitted or removed) and then use those interpolated facts (the ones that do not appear in the text) as the basis of your "proof", you have a problem. At the end of the day, my personal opinion from Zuckerman (and Nat Taylor) is that Theuderic could have been Makhir, but that there is no credible evidence supporting the identification. On the other had, I think that Zuckerman fails more completely to demonstrate the existence of a territorial Jewish state in SW France subsidiary to the Franks. Having said all of the above, I still enjoyed Zuckerman and believe his work is important. >> I find Nat Taylor's article pretty convincing in debunking >>Zuckerman. >If someone hasn't read and studied Zuckerman, it would be difficult to >arrive at that conclusion. Actually, I've read and enjoyed several things >by Nat Taylor, all of them, I thought, better than this TAG article. The >main problem I had with it was that it seemed to be absolutely dripping >with cynicism. Had he approached the material in the same manner as >Zuckerman had, I think it would have been a far more effective critique. >He had some valid points, but he missed some also. I think Taylor made very good points, but I think he went too far with them. Just as I feel Zuckerman failed to establish that Theuderic was Makhir, I do not think that Taylor proved that Theuderic could not have been Makhir. Incidently, there was a refutation of Nat Taylor's article in one of the Augustan Society publications, but it was also unconvincing and really rather facile. Jim R. -- ================================================= James P. Robinson III jprobins@ix.netcom.com All original material contained herein is copyright and property of the author. It may be quoted only in discussions on this forum and with an attribution to the author, unless permission is otherwise expressly given in writing. =================================================

Gordon, Gordon Banks wrote: >No, it was a forwarded post from gen-medieval-l that I thought people >here might be interested in. I haven't investigated this material >myself. > Perhaps you might want to look into Zuckerman's book. It's 490 pages and extensively footnoted, but it's an interesting read to say the least. Like everything else, though, it needs verification by other sources. At the very least, investigation of all supporting materials and documentation would be necessary. Unfortunately, that's no small undertaking. Again, find a copy of the book and you'll see what I mean. I have checked his information on the counts of Toulouse several generations after Theuderic-Makhir, and was disturbed by the fact his accounts were the opposite of other scholarly sources. That itself doesn't diminish the work as a whole, nor disprove the Theuderic-Makhir theory, but like everything else, it needs to be carefully scrutinized point for point. Something I've been unable to do time wise as yet. > I find Nat Taylor's article pretty convincing in debunking >Zuckerman. > If someone hasn't read and studied Zuckerman, it would be difficult to arrive at that conclusion. Actually, I've read and enjoyed several things by Nat Taylor, all of them, I thought, better than this TAG article. The main problem I had with it was that it seemed to be absolutely dripping with cynicism. Had he approached the material in the same manner as Zuckerman had, I think it would have been a far more effective critique. He had some valid points, but he missed some also. > I also don't accept the lines through the Irish kings. Too >many ulterior motives to make the Kings relate to the Bible in Christian >times. > I agree completely. Many kings seemed to have felt it necessary to invent glorious lineages which served to prove they were ordained by the heavens to rule. >The only line I think has possibilities that I've seen is the >one through Michael III, which I know you don't accept. I do think >there are some good possibilities for more research through >Spainish/Arab connections (not Zaida Denia, which is bogus). > The Zaida connection certainly holds no water. Again... I just think that there is insufficient evidence to prove Michael was the father of Leo. Anyone can believe anything they like, but genealogy is not a faith-based discipline. I think you're probably right about the Spanish/Arab connections though. Jim

I think Lindsay is a male. On Tue, 2003-08-05 at 16:03, JF wrote: > Gordon, > > Gordon Banks wrote: > > >Well, you'd have to get the article to see what the evidence is. > >Lindsay Brook is a reputable genealogist. All genealogy except that > >proven with DNA is probabilistic. The further back you go, the less > >certain things get. But it's fun to read about and consider. > > > > > It doesn't matter who it is, I'd still like to verify it with other > (good) sources. I'll put her article on my "to get" list however. > > Certainly all genealogy is problematic in the abstract. How many know > with absolute certainty, for example, that the baby their parents > brought home from the hospital wasn't inadvertently switched at birth? > Other than a great grandmother's tacit approval, how would anyone know > with absolute certainty that her husband was the father of all of her > children? Fortunately, genealogists and family historians don't operate > in the abstract, nor could they. They operate using the best information > available that meets established genealogical standards. Exactly. What do you suppose the percentage is of cases where the biological father isn't the father of record? 1%? Probably higher. Given how long are lines are, that makes it pretty probable that for any one line, it is hard to have too much confidence it, isn't it?

Gordon, Gordon Banks wrote: >Well, you'd have to get the article to see what the evidence is. >Lindsay Brook is a reputable genealogist. All genealogy except that >proven with DNA is probabilistic. The further back you go, the less >certain things get. But it's fun to read about and consider. > > It doesn't matter who it is, I'd still like to verify it with other (good) sources. I'll put her article on my "to get" list however. Certainly all genealogy is problematic in the abstract. How many know with absolute certainty, for example, that the baby their parents brought home from the hospital wasn't inadvertently switched at birth? Other than a great grandmother's tacit approval, how would anyone know with absolute certainty that her husband was the father of all of her children? Fortunately, genealogists and family historians don't operate in the abstract, nor could they. They operate using the best information available that meets established genealogical standards. As for the DNA issue, only an extremely minute fraction of 1% of your entire family tree can be verified by a DNA test (Y-DNA or mtDNA), and then only for an indication of a match. It doesn't prove anything in the sense of providing the names, dates, marriages, other siblings, etc., between either test subject. And it can't tell you the name of a MCRA, when or where he or she lived. Add to that the fact that potential testers have it only on good faith (or polished advertising) that the facility itself employs high chain of custory standards (most send the samples out to a third party lab). One of the larger criminal DNA test facilities in the country was in the news just last week. The charges were poor handling procedures, undertrained staff members, sample degradation and cross-contamination (and no, it wasn't the LAPD lab again). I don't know about you but these stories don't give me a warm fuzzy feeling about a test that, at best (and done in a clean facility under stringent conditions), can only provide an indication of relatedness. I agree, it is fun to consider who _might_ possibly be an ancient ancestor. But it's far better to have some confidence in the connections based on sound genealogical research. And to have guidelines to tell you when it's not possible to make such a determination. Keep in mind that, courtesy of the Human Genome project, we've learned that all humans on the planet are from a common pair. So even if you can't prove a direct line back to King David (or other famous persons in history), at least there's the compensation that such individuals are probably indirect ancestors. Jim