What is PhillyLabs?? Bonnie Rardin ________________________________ From: Susan Abramson <[email protected]> To: PhillyRoots Rootsweb <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, June 2, 2009 12:28:45 PM Subject: Re: [Phly-Rts] PHILLY-ROOTS Digest, Vol 4, Issue 130 Thanks for the response!  I'll check out PhillyLabs again - looks like it's down for maintenance right now. > To: [email protected] > From: [email protected] > Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 12:08:08 -0400 > Subject: Re: [Phly-Rts] PHILLY-ROOTS Digest, Vol 4, Issue 130 > > > Susan, FamilySearch the LDS site has a trial site which they have > volunteers indexing records. There are Philly Marriage and Death records > on these lists you can search them by last name of bride or groom and then > send for a copy, the marriage certificates are not online but the deaths > certificates are there. > > They have a number of different records from other states and other > countries a great place to start. > > "A question: I have located the index numbers for about a dozen > Philadelphia marriages. Is there an on-line way to access a copy of the > document? Because I have only the year of marriage, I can't apply to the > Philly Marriage Records Office, so I think my only means of finding these > marriages is through the index numbers." > > > Thanks, > Carol L. Heap > FL > > > ********* > Visit the threaded archives of this list: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/PHILLY-ROOTS > ********* > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message _________________________________________________________________ Lauren found her dream laptop. Find the PC that’s right for you. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/choosepc/?ocid=ftp_val_wl_290 ********* Visit the threaded archives of this list: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/PHILLY-ROOTS ********* ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thanks to Jane and to Carol for sending this message my way. I would much appreciate have a list of the Film Numbers. The index numbers (license numbers) are as follows: 75842 (1895) 440084 (1921) 31076 (1889) 141159 (1901) 28305 (1889) 7624 (1886) 312100 (1914) 73422 (1894) 261793 (1911) 75056 (1895) 47138 (1891) Thanks for bringing me a step closer to finding these records! Susan A. > To: [email protected] > From: [email protected] > Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 14:07:20 -0400 > Subject: [Phly-Rts] Marriage Records > > > Susan, This may help you- > > Carol, > Not sure if this should be to a requester or you. > There are no licenses on line. Once you find the year and license number > there are 500 corresponding > rolls of film. These will give you a front legal page, license application > and ministers return. Actually it is better > than paying the archives as you would get a typed out form. > I have the film numbers copied, so if you send the numbers I can give you > > the corresponding rolls. > Jane > ----- Original Message ----- > > Thanks, > Carol L. Heap > FL > > > ********* > Visit the threaded archives of this list: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/PHILLY-ROOTS > ********* > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live™ SkyDrive™: Get 25 GB of free online storage. http://windowslive.com/online/skydrive?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_SD_25GB_062009

Thanks for the response! I'll check out PhillyLabs again - looks like it's down for maintenance right now. > To: [email protected] > From: [email protected] > Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 12:08:08 -0400 > Subject: Re: [Phly-Rts] PHILLY-ROOTS Digest, Vol 4, Issue 130 > > > Susan, FamilySearch the LDS site has a trial site which they have > volunteers indexing records. There are Philly Marriage and Death records > on these lists you can search them by last name of bride or groom and then > send for a copy, the marriage certificates are not online but the deaths > certificates are there. > > They have a number of different records from other states and other > countries a great place to start. > > "A question: I have located the index numbers for about a dozen > Philadelphia marriages. Is there an on-line way to access a copy of the > document? Because I have only the year of marriage, I can't apply to the > Philly Marriage Records Office, so I think my only means of finding these > marriages is through the index numbers." > > > Thanks, > Carol L. Heap > FL > > > ********* > Visit the threaded archives of this list: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/PHILLY-ROOTS > ********* > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message _________________________________________________________________ Lauren found her dream laptop. Find the PC that’s right for you. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/choosepc/?ocid=ftp_val_wl_290

Look at the conditions needed to keep land granted that early. Purchases weren't out right, they required development or else they could be re-sold by the Penns. Selling parcels prior to the deadline could help keep the land both undeveloped and unclaimed. What you need to do is determine why it "generally" is believed, and what did Granville Leach support his statement with. It's odd for someone to make a point of the legal age at all in a land transaction unless they weren't implying there was some claim to him not being of legal age. Is there anything else in Leach giving context to the remark? Why do people generally believe they know Joseph Jr's age? A quick look at Ancestry didn't show any references to the arrivals in PA, births, marriages etc, while they do have some extensive early PA references they're not complete. I would be checking the records for something more concrete then others generally believe. The Ashtons are pretty documented, where they lived, attended church etc is known. If there is nothing showing Jr. was born here I'd be seriously questioning the generally knowns. Liz Harrison In a message dated 6/2/2009 5:37:08 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, [email protected] writes: Liz asked, "What actually would make more sense on this thread is to state what the point is of proving someone was at least 21 and what the link was to Philadelphia." Since I posted the question I will answer. The point is to identify my family, who the kids were, and how old they were, thus perhaps also determining where they were born! The land in question was purchased in Philadelphia, which is why the question was posted here. My ancestor Joseph Ashton Sr had land in Lower Dublin in 1681 -- it shows on the maps of the time. I found a land deed in which Joseph Jr purchased 500 acres of land in 1698, however, he was "generally" believed to have been b ca 1682 in PA, making him about 16 years old in 1698. IF he was older, that's a huge difference, and may also indicate he was born prior to his parents immigration, which may also aid in tracking the entire family down overseas. In 1703 Joseph Jr sold this same land (500 acres) purchased in 1698 to his father Joseph Sr. Granville Leach notes at this sale that "Joseph Jr was 'of age'" implying that he was at least 21 and that comment is probably why he was listed as b ca 1682. In 1708 Joseph Sr died. His will explicitly states, "I give & bequeath unto Joseph my Eldest Son 250 acres of Land . . . upon the same that 'I purchased'', and the remaining 250 was to be inherited by Joseph Jr's oldest son when he came of age. So we have a son who buys land, sells it to his dad several years later, Dad subsequently claims he bought the land and wills it back to his son and grandson. So if anyone can explain this to me, I'm very interested. Sharon **************An Excellent Credit Score is 750. See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222585042x1201462767/aol?redir=htt p://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&hmpgID=62&bcd=Jun eExcfooterNO62) ********* Visit the threaded archives of this list: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/PHILLY-ROOTS ********* ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message **************An Excellent Credit Score is 750. See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222585042x1201462767/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&hmpgID=62&bcd=Jun eExcfooterNO62)

Liz asked, "What actually would make more sense on this thread is to state what the point is of proving someone was at least 21 and what the link was to Philadelphia." Since I posted the question I will answer. The point is to identify my family, who the kids were, and how old they were, thus perhaps also determining where they were born! The land in question was purchased in Philadelphia, which is why the question was posted here. My ancestor Joseph Ashton Sr had land in Lower Dublin in 1681 -- it shows on the maps of the time. I found a land deed in which Joseph Jr purchased 500 acres of land in 1698, however, he was "generally" believed to have been b ca 1682 in PA, making him about 16 years old in 1698. IF he was older, that's a huge difference, and may also indicate he was born prior to his parents immigration, which may also aid in tracking the entire family down overseas. In 1703 Joseph Jr sold this same land (500 acres) purchased in 1698 to his father Joseph Sr. Granville Leach notes at this sale that "Joseph Jr was 'of age'" implying that he was at least 21 and that comment is probably why he was listed as b ca 1682. In 1708 Joseph Sr died. His will explicitly states, "I give & bequeath unto Joseph my Eldest Son 250 acres of Land . . . upon the same that 'I purchased'', and the remaining 250 was to be inherited by Joseph Jr's oldest son when he came of age. So we have a son who buys land, sells it to his dad several years later, Dad subsequently claims he bought the land and wills it back to his son and grandson. So if anyone can explain this to me, I'm very interested. Sharon **************An Excellent Credit Score is 750. See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222585042x1201462767/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&hmpgID=62&bcd=Jun eExcfooterNO62)

Hi Susan, With the year and the file number, you can get the certificates, either pre-1916 (at Philadelphia City Archives) or up to present (at City Hall, Marriage License Bureau) -- I'm not sure which you mean by "Philly Marriage Records Office" -- though it might be cheaper to go in person (or hire someone to do it for you) than to pay the city their copying fees. (Again, depending on which office, the fees vary greatly). HTH Claire K. On May 30, 2009, at 10:24 AM, Susan Abramson wrote: > > A question: I have located the index numbers for about a dozen > Philadelphia marriages. Is there an on-line way to access a copy > of the document? Because I have only the year of marriage, I can't > apply to the Philly Marriage Records Office, so I think my only > means of finding these marriages is through the index numbers.

Susan, This may help you- Carol, Not sure if this should be to a requester or you. There are no licenses on line. Once you find the year and license number there are 500 corresponding rolls of film. These will give you a front legal page, license application and ministers return. Actually it is better than paying the archives as you would get a typed out form. I have the film numbers copied, so if you send the numbers I can give you the corresponding rolls. Jane ----- Original Message ----- Thanks, Carol L. Heap FL

Susan, FamilySearch the LDS site has a trial site which they have volunteers indexing records. There are Philly Marriage and Death records on these lists you can search them by last name of bride or groom and then send for a copy, the marriage certificates are not online but the deaths certificates are there. They have a number of different records from other states and other countries a great place to start. "A question: I have located the index numbers for about a dozen Philadelphia marriages. Is there an on-line way to access a copy of the document? Because I have only the year of marriage, I can't apply to the Philly Marriage Records Office, so I think my only means of finding these marriages is through the index numbers." Thanks, Carol L. Heap FL

Are there any FINEMAN marriages listed? Thanks, Carol L. Heap FL

Be aware as the link given states a guardian could sell or buy for the minor, the deed would be in the owner's name not the guardian's name. What actually would make more sense on this thread is to state what the point is of proving someone was at least 21 and what the link was to Philadelphia, then someone might actually be able to help with the real question behind the assumption. Liz Harrison In a message dated 6/1/2009 7:48:47 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, [email protected] writes: Blackstone says that under common law: "an infant* can neither aliene his lands, nor do any legal act, nor make a deed, nor indeed any manner of contract. that is of any force or effect." So, although minors can inherit & from a certain age bequeath property, buying and selling was out because the contract had no 'force' behind it. As Liz said, your person could have inherited the land & could be any age, but if the person you are interested in is buying or selling, then that is another matter. [Blackstone was writing mid-1700s but his purpose was to present English common law.] *Under common law majority was at age 21, anyone under that age was an 'infant' thus the above usage of that term. This site has a nice page addressing these issues: http://www.genfiles.com/legal/legalage.htm Liane ********* Visit the threaded archives of this list: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/PHILLY-ROOTS ********* ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message **************An Excellent Credit Score is 750. See Yours in Just 2 Easy Steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222377040x1201454360/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&hmpgID=62&bcd=Jun eExcfooterNO62)

Blackstone says that under common law: "an infant* can neither aliene his lands, nor do any legal act, nor make a deed, nor indeed any manner of contract. that is of any force or effect." So, although minors can inherit & from a certain age bequeath property, buying and selling was out because the contract had no 'force' behind it. As Liz said, your person could have inherited the land & could be any age, but if the person you are interested in is buying or selling, then that is another matter. [Blackstone was writing mid-1700s but his purpose was to present English common law.] *Under common law majority was at age 21, anyone under that age was an 'infant' thus the above usage of that term. This site has a nice page addressing these issues: http://www.genfiles.com/legal/legalage.htm Liane

SMITH C. Annie, 1/29/59 C. Matilda T., 4/24/58 Carlin, 3/30/57 Caroline, 4/6/54 caroline, 2/16/56, 2/18/56 Carrie C., 12/18/57 Carrie E., 6/2/62 Catharine, 5/2/57, 5/1/61 Catherine, 10/22/53, 7/24/57 Cecilia C., 5/11/52 Cecilia J., 2/7/54 Cervantes, 12/30/62 Chas., 2/13/55, 12/28/55, 7/11/63 Chas. E., 2/2/64 Charles, 1/5/53, 5/17/53, 11/19/53, 8/21/55, 5/8/57, 3/27/61, 3/16/65 Charles E., 2/3/64 Charles H., 10/11/60, 3/19/61, 10/23/63 Charles, N., 9/24/64 Charles P., 1/17/59, 2/7/60 Christian F., 9/21/65 Christiana, 8/2/59 Christopher, Jr. 3/15/65 Conrad, 8/4/55, 11/22/62 Curtis, 11/1/59 D.M., 5/15/54 Daniel, 11/1/65, 4/7/59 David, Cart., 8/29/56, 9/22/60, 10/1/64 Deborah B., 2/24/58 Dilaplaine R., 4/4/57 Bill Pallatt

Sorry that should have been, 1920 not 1820 in Philly census. " I have been looking for Philip FINNEY born in Philly born Sept 12, 1892, he was in New York, Long Island by 1930 census , father born in Ireland. After many searches my Brother Ed finds a Philip FINEMAN in Philly 1920 census with a wife Estelle (same name as 1930), daughter Jean (Gina in 1930). Parents born in Russia. SS application says parents Abraham Finney & Sarah Leshem. Next we found an Abe Fineman in Philly, with a wife Sarah and a son Philip along with 4 more kids, born in Russia. Has anyone run into this before? Russian becoming Irish??? Was there a problem being Russian & maybe Jewish in 1820, they seem to have made the name change when they moved to NY. Any ideas where I could look for records of name change in that time period? By the way Philip was buried Baptist, could be two different families I know but names & ages are awfully close. Thanks, Carol L. Heap FL

A question: I have located the index numbers for about a dozen Philadelphia marriages. Is there an on-line way to access a copy of the document? Because I have only the year of marriage, I can't apply to the Philly Marriage Records Office, so I think my only means of finding these marriages is through the index numbers. Any help would be much appreciated! Susan _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail® has ever-growing storage! Don’t worry about storage limits. http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Storage?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_Storage1_052009

The reason you can't find an age is because there wasn't one, just as today there isn't. Children inherited land you can find that in many wills. The law in England was no different. There was not and is not a minimum age for landownership. A child would be required to have a legal adult in charge of their affairs but those adults would be administering the child's property. While it is not likely a child purchased land it's not impossible, a guardian could make the purchase for investment for the child, but the deed would show the owner - the child. Deeds don't request ages and they don't show ages so any deed you saw for the late 1600s wouldn't show an age. Inheritance could be in play, I researched a family where the father died on the voyage over from England in the 1680s, he wasn't the only one to die on voyages over or shortly after. Working on assumption may give you what ends up being the correct answer but you are still going to need some other record to actually verify the age of a landowner. If you can't find birth records a will or probate would be a better source for a guess - did the person have a wife? Children and if so were they minors or adults? Liz Harrison In a message dated 5/30/2009 12:18:06 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, [email protected] writes: I've looked at a number of deeds and tax lists for Philadelphia & surrounds in the late 1600s but none of those I was looking for was under 21. Most were men who received grants of land from the Crown or Penn or whomever was selling it and were men with families, so well over 21. Under English law you would have to be 21 - you would think it would have been the same. Most were probably first generation immigrants pre-1700, too, so inheritance wasn't in play yet - even then, there would be some sort of guardian for a minor. Liane ********* Visit the threaded archives of this list: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/PHILLY-ROOTS ********* ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1221322950x1201367186/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&hmpgID=62&bcd= MaystepsfooterNO62)

SMITH Beaton, Jr., 3/23/60 Benjamin, 6/6/64 Benjamin S., 3/2/64 Burrows J., 3/29/61 That is all the Bs' that are listed. I have no further information. Bill Pallatt

SMITH Abbie, A 6/30/62 Abel, 12/1/65 Absalom, 1/10/61 Addie, 11/1/59, 4/18/62 Adelaide, 1/31/55 Agnes Ann, Grover 12/17/53 Albert, 10/3/59 Alecia, F. 10/12/61 Alexander, 4/7/58 Alexander M. 8/26/56 Alfred, 5/23/54 Alice, 3/17/57 Alice mary, 8/12/64 Allen, 11/8/56 Allen S. 3/9/58 Allen W. 7/26/54 Amanada, 6/12/52, 6/14/58, 9/23/65 Amanda Perscilla, 12/27/65 Amelia C. 10/31/54 Amos Newton, 11/29/62 Amy jane, 10/30/55 Andrew, 10/1/53, 5/17/64 Angeline, 3/24/52 Angeline S, 6/3/63 Ann, 4/14/58 Anna, 3/29/54, 3/14/63, 1/23/64, 11/29/65 Anna C, 4/4/57 Anna E, 2/29/64 Anna Eliza, 9/2/62 Anna Elizabeth, 11/24/57 Anna F, 5/29/58 Anna L, 6/22/61 Anna maria, 9/17/53, 12/12/57 Anna R, 11/8/59 Anna Rebecca, 3/13/55 Anna virginia, 9/25/56 Annie, 9/25/52, 1/21/54, 3/18/56, 8/6/56, 1/1/57, 1/23/57, 4/6/64 Annie E, 5/21/59, 9/15/63 Annie M, 6/9/60,3/23/63 Armer P, 12/17/63 Asa Alonzo, Dr., 5/27/65 That is all the info I have. There are a Gazillion Smiths listed, it will take awhile to get them all. Bill Pallatt

The reason you can't find an age is because there wasn't one, just as today there isn't. Children inherited land you can find that in many wills. The law in England was no different. There was not and is not a minimum age for landownership. A child would be required to have a legal adult in charge of their affairs but those adults would be administering the child's property. While it is not likely a child purchased land it's not impossible, a guardian could make the purchase for investment for the child, but the deed would show the owner - the child. Deeds don't request ages and they don't show ages so any deed you saw for the late 1600s wouldn't show an age. Inheritance could be in play, I researched a family where the father died on the voyage over from England in the 1680s, he wasn't the only one to die on voyages over or shortly after. Working on assumption may give you what ends up being the correct answer but you are still going to need some other record to actually verify the age of a landowner. If you can't find birth records a will or probate would be a better source for a guess - did the person have a wife? Children and if so were they minors or adults? Liz Harrison In a message dated 5/30/2009 12:18:06 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, [email protected] writes: I've looked at a number of deeds and tax lists for Philadelphia & surrounds in the late 1600s but none of those I was looking for was under 21. Most were men who received grants of land from the Crown or Penn or whomever was selling it and were men with families, so well over 21. Under English law you would have to be 21 - you would think it would have been the same. Most were probably first generation immigrants pre-1700, too, so inheritance wasn't in play yet - even then, there would be some sort of guardian for a minor. Liane ********* Visit the threaded archives of this list: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/PHILLY-ROOTS ********* ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1221322950x1201367186/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072&hmpgID=62&bcd= MaystepsfooterNO62)

I've looked at a number of deeds and tax lists for Philadelphia & surrounds in the late 1600s but none of those I was looking for was under 21. Most were men who received grants of land from the Crown or Penn or whomever was selling it and were men with families, so well over 21. Under English law you would have to be 21 - you would think it would have been the same. Most were probably first generation immigrants pre-1700, too, so inheritance wasn't in play yet - even then, there would be some sort of guardian for a minor. Liane

Hello, I am trying to find Lucinda MAY born 1857 in NY. In the 1900 census she lives in Ward 32. She is not listed in the Phila death records that I can find any help greatly appreciated. Kathy list "mom' for Blinn-L, Brauch-L, Clapper, Figiel-L, Germans-IN-HuntingtonCo-L, Germans-to-Phila-L, Germans-OH-Starkco-L, Hamby-L, Hofmann-L, Holsinger-L, Huther-L, Laughran-L, Loose-L, Paszotta-L, Riley-L, Rupsis-L, Schumacher-L, Sibel-L, Soyster-L, Troop-L, Vollmer-L, Wedler-L, Wherity-L homepage http://community.webtv.net/kathy556/DoughertyGordonBaer http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/h/a/m/Kathryn-R-Hamby-PA/index.html _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail® goes with you. http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Mobile?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_Mobile1_052009