Well, there are tons of Dietz's, thirty or so entries in the Strassberger books of those that came into Philly, many more which came into New York from early 1700s on, lots into Baltimore (mostly 1800s from what I've seen). Unfortunately, it's one of those "need more information to help". My line is Johan Fredrich Dietz who came into Philly in Sept. 1749 on the ship Edinburgh. The most like suspect for his father is Johan Peter Dietz, who married 2/14/1713 in Gauersheim. Some others are convinced he's the right guy but I'm a genealogical sceptic. If you have any locations or other type pointers for Frank I'll look through what I have. My Johan's line is pretty well fleshed out. I've probably corresponded with 20-30 other researchers all Johan's descendents. I've also attached an e-mail that was sent about four years ago with a bunch of Dietzs from church records (I couldn't tie mine into it) as well as some comments on naming et al. The Lutheran Church record references were useful for me as my Dietz line in Germany were Lutherans ... knowing the religion helps a bunch.... Joe Dietz P.S. The Richard Dietz stuff they refer to is on-line .... I believe you have to pay for queries to it .... I have not used it, have not needed to. P.P.S. I do not have active e-mail accounts for these folks anymore. Attachment: I found a reference to Joes/Jois in 'German Church Books: Beyond the Basics' by Kenneth Smith. The section on common abbreviations lists: Joes = Johannes Jois = Johannis (of Johannes) It also says that a line over a letter indicates a missing 'm' or 'n' and if used over an 'm' or 'n' it means to double the existing letter. I've looked through a few books on reading old German script, including Edna Bentz's. I think I have a pretty good handle on the general alphabet, my problems in deciphering the text are mainly in damage to the book, sometimes what seems to be rather individual ways of creating capital letters (not in the reference books), and plain bad handwriting. In a churchbook for the nearby town of Bischheim it looks like the same priest kept the records for close to fifty years. It's the same hand, but the writing gets shakier and shakier as he got older. Still trying to find a reference for the first name 'Sontag'. I'm fairly certain its a capital 'S' - that 'loop'. I did post it on soc.genealogy.german but got no responses. I would have thought it unique if it wasn't for the other unrelated Sontag in the records. I did some other research and it seems to be a fairly common last name, and I think there are precedents for the conversion of surnames into given names. Thanks for the contact info on Richard Dietz. As I mentioned earlier, I'm loading some info into Brother's Keeper. I think I've found a way to paste sections of reports into email. The names below are only the ones that I can confirm as relations - I still have some work to do on the possibles. Let me know if you have a problem reading the section. Name Birth Date Death Date DIETZ Adam 1803 18 Mar 1845 DIETZ Anna Elisabeth 28 Apr 1772 dif DIETZ Anna Elisabetha 9 Jun 1742 DIETZ Anna Margaretha 17 Jun 1732 DIETZ Anna Maria 24 Feb 1695 DIETZ Anna Maria 20 May 1720 dif DIETZ Anna Maria 9 Dec 1680 DIETZ Anna Maria 8 Oct 1739 dif DIETZ Anna Maria Cecilia 13 Nov 1689 DIETZ Anna Sophia Agnes 11 Feb 1677 DIETZ Catharina 19 Feb 1806 dif DIETZ Cecilia Felicitas 1687 1 Aug 1689 DIETZ Charles 6 Feb 1888 7 Jul 1955 DIETZ Ernst? Solomon 29 Jun 1716 DIETZ Eva Maria 26 Jul 1673 13 Apr 1676 DIETZ Friedrich 16 Jan 1833 DIETZ Hans (Johann) Joachim 1649 15 Jan 1729 DIETZ Hans Fritz (Johann Friedrich) DIETZ Hans Philipp DIETZ Heinrich 10 Sep 1835 16 Sep 1835 DIETZ Heinrich Jacob 3 Jun 1718 DIETZ Johan Ludwig 10 Aug 1766 DIETZ Johann Adam 3 Mar 1745 DIETZ Johann Adam 9 Apr 1708 2 Nov 1783 DIETZ Johann Balthasar 20 Oct 1787 dif DIETZ Johann Bernhardt 24 Feb 1695 7 Jan 1735 DIETZ Johann Christian 18 Aug 1724 DIETZ Johann Christian 22 Mar 1711 DIETZ Johann Daniel 29 Sep 1742 dif DIETZ Johann Eberhardt 20 Jan 1671 25 Jul 1672 DIETZ Johann Friederich 6 Jan 1677 DIETZ Johann Friedrich 11 Mar 1721 DIETZ Johann Friedrich 1 Apr 1683 2 Sep 1689 DIETZ Johann Georg 31 Dec 1682 DIETZ Johann Georg 18 Apr 1745 DIETZ Johann Georg 28 May 1702 DIETZ Johann Georg 20 Jan 1678 DIETZ Johann Heinrich 15 Oct 1724 dif DIETZ Johann Heinrich 23 Sep 1698 DIETZ Johann Jacob 29 Mar 1722 DIETZ Johann Peter 2 May 1685 12 Feb 1764 DIETZ Johann Peter 27 Feb 1747 DIETZ Johann Peter 27 Aug 1750 dif DIETZ Johann Peter 1 Mar 1711 DIETZ Johann Peter 9 Sep 1732 dif DIETZ Johann Peter 20 Jul 1769 27 Feb 1829 DIETZ Johann Peter 23 Apr 1706 21 Sep 1762 DIETZ Johann Solomon 28 May 1708 DIETZ Johann Valentin 27 Nov 1782 DIETZ Johann Valentin 19 Sep 1680 9 Oct 1681--died young DIETZ Johann Valentin 24 Jun 1680 DIETZ Johannes 15 Mar 1727 DIETZ Johannes 18 Feb 1683 2 Jul 1684 DIETZ Johannes 22 Apr 1779 DIETZ Johannes 19 Apr 1797 DIETZ Ludwig 9 Apr 1839 DIETZ Maria Apollonia 13 Sep 1722 DIETZ Maria Apollonia Feb 1734 DIETZ Maria Apollonia 13 Sep 1775 dif DIETZ Maria Apollonia 20 Mar 1794 DIETZ Maria Catherina 5 May 1734 DIETZ Maria Dorothea 20 Nov 1715 dif DIETZ Maria Dorothea 22 Jul 1730 DIETZ Maria Dorothea 25 Feb 1685 10 Aug 1685 DIETZ Maria Dorothea 22 Mar 1676 4 Mar 1677 DIETZ Maria Elisabeth 2 Feb 1706 DIETZ Maria Margaretha 5 Jun 1726 DIETZ Peter 15 Nov 1836 20 Feb 1905 DIETZ Philipp Jacob 19 Apr 1750 DIETZ Solomon 26 Aug 1691 DIETZ Solomon 16 Sep 1675 10 May 1731 DIETZ Sontag? DIETZ Sophia Anastasia 2 Nov 1669 dif DIETZ Sussana Margaretha 29 Jun 1692 DIETZ Sybilla Catharina 15 Sep 1685 11 Nov 1689 Dave ***************************************************************** In a message dated 96-10-07 13:03:17 EDT, you wrote: >I found a reference to Joes/Jois in 'German Church Books: Beyond the Basics' >by Kenneth Smith. The section on common abbreviations lists: > Joes = Johannes > Jois = Johannis (of Johannes) >It also says that a line over a letter indicates a missing 'm' or 'n' and if >used over an 'm' or 'n' it means to double the existing letter. Hi Dave: This is very interesting...Don't believe I've ever found a name with a line over any of the letters, but then some of the films I read were quite bad... >I've looked through a few books on reading old German script, including Edna >Bentz's. I think I have a pretty good handle on the general alphabet, my >problems in deciphering the text are mainly in damage to the book, sometimes >what seems to be rather individual ways of creating capital letters (not in >the reference books), and plain bad handwriting. In a churchbook for the >nearby town of Bischheim it looks like the same priest kept the records for >close to fifty years. It's the same hand, but the writing gets shakier and >shakier as he got older. Some record keepers in all of Europe prided themselves on fancy penmanship. The flouishes !!! Very tough to read sometimes, until one figures out one entry with lots of letters, and uses that as a guide..The time period I scanned was after the invasion of Louis the 14th and his ravaging of the area, so the books probably were in bad condition after all the earth scorching... >Still trying to find a reference for the first name 'Sontag'. I'm fairly >certain its a capital 'S' - that 'loop'. I did post it on soc.genealogy.german >but got no responses. I would have thought it unique if it wasn't for the >other unrelated Sontag in the records. I did some other research and it seems Don't give up, post it from time to time, and you might get an answer... >to be a fairly common last name, and I think there are precedents for the >conversion of surnames into given names. Yes, surnames did become Christian names all over Europe...In Holland, I have many families named Jans, and their fathers were all Jan ? (no surname)...all in the 1600s, before surnames were required by law... >As I mentioned earlier, I'm loading some info into Brother's Keeper. I think >I've found a way to paste sections of reports into email. The names below are >only the ones that I can confirm as relations - I still have some work to do >on the possibles. Let me know if you have a problem reading the section. I will check your list...a quick scan...the name Apollonia....I have one named Apollonia Merckmich or Merkonich...Now that should be easy to find...but... I also have many Annas and will have to check for sure to see if any match. Our ggrampa was Valentin, also a name I see...I'll just bet we're going to connect somewhere here... Thanks for this list, I will get back to you, after I check.... Lynn P/S Very interested in your Johann Valentin Dietz b. 6/24/1680...Please tell me where you found his birth...Was he Lutheran as well? Did he name any sons Johann? I find it odd, living so close to Worms, that my Dietzes attended a Catholic parish in Heimersheim near Alzey...What do you think? **************************************************** >From Lynn on 2-16-2000 The Dietz Database, 10528 Lower Azusa Rd. #162, El Monte CA 91731-1296; (818) 309-0764, Richard R. Dietz; incl. Dietze & Diez He is probably online somewhere, but it's been a while since we have been in touch... Two more messages I found in old files: unfortunately, still no surname for David... :-( But... he lists a place of Lutheran records he has been searching in !!! So maybe you can still find your Johan Fridrich in the LDS films of this region... *************************************************** Hi David: I missed your original post but saw bits of it on the following message from Dakota: Ä Area: Soc.Genealog ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Date: 09-23-96 01:28 From: Dakota@uncc.campus.mci.ne To: ALL Subj: Re: Palatinate Names... ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ -=> Quoting Dakota@uncc.campus.mci.ne to All <=- (David ) wrote: >I have been researching the following names in and around the village >of Gauersheim (just west of Worms) 1668-1850: > DIETZ REMBE SCHAFFER/SCHAEFER/SCHA"FER HAHN >and a few other names that I still have to figure out (the writing in >churchbooks can be so - interesting): > BREHIN? FURGOU? HINTAND? PARIOTS? >Would like to compare notes via e-mail with anyone researching same >names/region. Dak> What resources are you using? I am looking for info on the village of Dak> Lautersheim, which is also just west of Worms. LD> I have DIETZes in Bermersheim and Heimersheim in the same region of Alzey/Worms...a tiny bit northwest of Alzey, I believe...I'd love to exchange information with you on the Dietzes...Studying your names with (?) Maybe I can help...I copied a bunch of names that were on the same films as my Dietzes..My earliest Dietz, Joannes was b. there abt 1711. I had great problems with the poor film...Had smudges, water(?) stains (from putting out fires?) etc, and in general was quite unreadable. LD> That area, I'm told, still has many Dietzes...Lynn Hi David: the following is the message from Dakota: on Soc.gen.german the Dak> are his remarks, and the > are from your orig. message..... Apparently he didn't think to answer you by EMail. Date: 09-23-96 01:28 Subj: Re: Palatinate Names... ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ (David ) wrote: >I have been researching the following names in and around the village >of Gauersheim (just west of Worms) 1668-1850: > DIETZ REMBE SCHAFFER/SCHAEFER/SCHA"FER HAHN >and a few other names that I still have to figure out (the writing in >churchbooks can be so - interesting): > BREHIN? FURGOU? HINTAND? PARIOTS? >Would like to compare notes via e-mail with anyone researching same >names/region. Dak> What resources are you using? I am looking for info on the village of Dak> Lautersheim, which is also just west of Worms. ******************************************************** Date: 96-09-26 15:59:22 EDT >I've collected a number of DIETZ names in Gauersheim - direct ancestors, >general relations, and ??? - from microfilm of the Evangelical Lutheran >churchbook. My ancestors remained Catholic thru the Reformation, so we are probably not closely connected, altho one never knows. ;^ ) >My notes are about as complete as I could get for the period 1668-1798. I >was more selective for later dates since the records had more data and I could >more easily trace back from birth to marriage to birth etc. For the earlier >period I sometimes had to resort to things like "X's godmother Y was the >father's sister" to confirm connections, which required complete family > group data. Have 100 births, about 35 marriages, and a bunch of deaths. Yes, this is tough working out family groups, when there were so many in the area...Have you sent information to Richard Dietz, the relative listed as the Dietz Family Assoc. creator in USA? I believe his earliest known ancestor was about 2-3 miles west of Alzey....he is collecting all Dietzes.... His Dietz ancestors were also Lutheran or Evangelische. >I copied my notes into Excel (Vers 7 for Win95) to make sorting easier. I >would be happy to send them to you if you'd like. It would probably be better >if you could read the .xls files since the worksheet formatting may be >corrupted the farther I get away from the original file format. I'd love to have them, but don't know if my Windows 3.11 can read these files...If you think I can, let me know...If you have any Joannes, Joannis or Joes (abbreviation for the former) or Jois, in your files, I'd sure like to know... >I noticed a Bermersheim on a map I have of the area. It looks to be only about >a mile and a half west of the northern boundary of the city of Worms. If >you're looking for good maps, I recommend the multivolume series 'The Atlantic >Bridge to Germany' by Charles M. Hall. The maps of the Palatinate are fairly >detailed (1:200,000) and since they don't have color or much shading they copy >well. Golly, I'm really glad you said this, as I never found Bermersheim !!! I did locate Heimersheim, which is where their parish was, I believe. The family births were all (presumably at home) in Bermersheim, while all the marriages and burials were in Heimersheim. I'll look for the books and copy the maps...Thanks so much...This gives me a newer location to check further back on... >By the way, what (or who) is Dakota? My original post was on >soc.genealogy.german, and must have been picked up from there. If there are >other researchers interested in this area I'd like to know. See above for the message Dakota sent...My small BB, where I get these newsgroups, is down for a few days, so don't know if there were any other responses to your/his message. It was down when your message was posted as I *never* miss a Dietz message otherwise... Let me know what you think....Lynn ********************************************************* Lynn: I found the birth of Johann Valentin (1680) in the Evangelical Lutheran churchbook for Gauersheim. I didn't find any records of his marriage, children, or death in Gauersheim and assumed that he moved to another village. That seems to have been the case with a number of sons as the family grew. His parents were Hans (Johann) Joachim DIETZ (b 1649, d 1729) and Maria Dorothea BRAMOND(?). There was another Johann Valentin b 1680 to Joachim's brother Hans Philipp, but the boy died the following year. >From what I've read, the 'official' religion of the Palatinate after the Reformation depended on the inclination of the Elector-Prince. Lutheranism, Calvinism, and Catholicism each had turns. Sometimes the advent of a new religion led to particularly zealous purges of the remains of the former one, but generally there seems to have been some tolerance. The old village church often had services held in different denominations.. It may be the case with your Dietzes that the more unpredictable and urgent events like baptisms and burials occurred locally in a mixed denomination church, and events that could be planned, like marriages, could take place in a church where they felt more comfortable. Just a thought. I've seen many Apollonias in the Gauersheim book. It seems to have been a fairly common woman's name in the period. Does the birth or marriage record for Joannes [Johannes] DIETZ/DIEZ (b 1711) mention his parents' names? The marriage records I've looked at in Gauersheim and nearby Bischheim generally have the fathers' names and, if not residents of the village, often indicate where they were from. I see you've run across the DIETZ/DIEZ variant. In Gauersheim, the spelling of the last name was not always consistent, particularly before about 1700, and seemed to depend on the priest writing the record. For some individuals there are different spellings in birth, marriage, and death records where the difference in handwriting indicates a high turnover of priests. I even came across the variant TITSCHE which sent me to the reference books. In the books I found the following variants of DIETZ: Dietz(e), Diez, Diet(z)ch(e), Diczsh(e), Tietz(e), Titz(e), Tit(z)sch. Dave