thank you for your notes, Bob, first, I did indeed note in my original post that Johannes was b. in R. Pfalz. I got that from his naturalization-actually it says Bavaria, but this was in about 1785 and I have learned from talking with other researchers that Bergzabern was in the R. Pfalz at that time, but people called the area Bavaria. it is not at all where the "new" Bavaria is. there are many hits for Charles Wagner's online and in Filby's books, it's a very, very common name. so far I haven't been able to discver which Charles Wagner is mine, with exception to the 1883 immigration and later records. those later records I've been able to prove were him. earlier records haven't been so easy to ferrit out. as far as I have found there is no death record for him...but that's another story all together. Jacob does not give much information, and Christopher even less as he (Christopher) d. before 1850, but Martha Dunifer (note spelling variation), Jacob's daughter and Edwin's great grandmother, states in her census records that her father was born in "Bavaria". again, this would be R. Pfalz. Charles obviously was not born in R. Pfalz, but I threw him in because he's part of the mix. that is, regarding immigration records and not being able to find passengers. I will look into the advice you gave and see if some of the lists you mentioned may be able to help. regards, Cornelia ps, someone mentioned that only certain people were listed on the Ellis Island index-I think 1st and 2nd class? well, I've found that at Ancestry, everyone's listed, whether cabin or sterage, and that some cabin people aren't listed at Ellis...so, caveat....also, each site has a mostly completely different set of immigrants-Immigrant Ships Guild, Ellis Island, Castle Garden's and Ancestry-some obviously because they are from different eras, but some simply because of different collections. so check all of them. unfortunately, most of my people aren't there...and I've noticed a large collection of British immigrants, and not as many German immigrants...so far. so I've found most if not all of my 1800's British immigrants and none of my same era German immigrants. they'll show up, eventually. On Mon Nov 13 6:04 , bob gillis <robertgillis@verizon.net> sent: >Since you do not know where in the German states any of your men were >born, you will be better asking on GENMTD or ADVANCED-RESEARCH or a >general German list or surname lists.. > >bob gillis > >fenenga@connpoint.net wrote: > >>both of my mother's grandfather's were German, though I suspect one immigrated to >>England before he arrived in America. I'm also looking for a German ancestor of >>Edwins. none of them show up in either Ellis Island, Castle Garden or the Immigrant >>ships guild, searching both by given name and by surnames. however one of them >>shows up sporaticly in Ancestry's immigration records...but not for his original >>immigration, as far as I can find. >> > >snip > >

Cornelia said: > ps, someone mentioned that only certain people were listed on the Ellis > Island > index-I think 1st and 2nd class? My steerage grandmother was on the list at Ellis Island. Marybeth

fenenga@connpoint.net wrote: >thank you for your notes, Bob, > > >first, I did indeed note in my original post that Johannes was b. in R. Pfalz. I >got that from his naturalization; actually it says Bavaria, but this was in about >1785 and I have learned from talking with other researchers that Bergzabern was in >the R. Pfalz at that time, but people called the area Bavaria. it is not at all >where the "new" Bavaria is. > Yes Bad Bersbern was in Bavaria and today is in Reinlad-Pfalz. From about 1777 until about 1914 the Pfalz was part of the Kingdom of Bavaria. Actually the Palatine Elector was the last of four lines of the house of Wittelsbach and he inherited Bavaria 1742. The capital of Bavaria was in the Pfalz for a number of years until it was moved to Munich. From 1914 to 1945 the Pfalz was part of the German state of Bavaria. After WW2, Germany realigned the states and the Pfalz became part of the state of Rheinland-Pfalz. Again when and where did these men live? They may not have entered through NYC. > >there are many hits for Charles Wagner's online and in Filby's books, it's a very, >very common name. so far I haven't been able to discver which Charles Wagner is >mine, with exception to the 1883 immigration and later records. those later >records I've been able to prove were him. earlier records haven't been so easy to >ferrit out. as far as I have found there is no death record for him...but that's >another story all together. > What is the last Census he appeared in. Did he leave an estate? >Jacob does not give much information, and Christopher even less as he >(Christopher) d. before 1850, but Martha Dunifer (note spelling variation), >Jacob's daughter and Edwin's great grandmother, > Who is Edwin? > states in her census records that >her father was born in "Bavaria". again, this would be R. Pfalz. > Not necessarily. > >Charles obviously was not born in R. Pfalz, but I threw him in because he's part >of the mix. that is, regarding immigration records and not being able to find >passengers. > >I will look into the advice you gave and see if some of the lists you mentioned >may be able to help. > bob gillis