We just uncovered a little bit of a surprise that breaks off one branch of our tree and grafts a new one onto it (we think). I share it here for a couple of reasons: a) I'm curious to know from others how common the following type of name change is and b) to let other people know about this kind of thing in case it happens to you! Our ancestors out of Feilbingert, Rheinpfalz (just south of Kreuznach) are Joh. Heinrich Betz and his wife Maria Christina Dressel. We already figured out that most people whose names started with Johann or Maria or Anna usually went by their middle name, and in fact, this is what we see on most of the church records for this couple. He goes by Heinrich (while still in Germany; Henry after moving to Buffalo, NY), and she goes by Christina. When I was in the Pfalz last spring, and with the stateside assistance of my microfilm-reading cousin, we found the parents of each of these two people. He was son of Valentin Betz (we thought), and she was daughter of Adam Dressel. In Germany, I tried unsuccessfully to find Heinrich's and Christina's marriage record. Instead, I found a marriage record for Heinrich Betz and Maria Magdalena Dressel. This Heinrich was the son, not of Valentin, but of Jacob Betz; but Magdalena was also the daughter of Adam Dressel. We figured that the two sisters (Christina and Magdalena) just happened to marry two different Heinrich Betzes; we'd seen stuff like this happen before. I took a copy of this marriage record home anyway, in case we later found a connection to this other Heinrich. Good thing I did. As we burrowed into the church records to find the births of our Dressel ancestress, we discovered that the Maria Christina we thought was ours was born in 1783 but she died six years later in 1789! We figured that, as Germans often did back then, that the next daughter born would be named Maria Christina. BUT! The next daughter born, 7 April 1790, they named Maria Magdalena. Ah... here's the Magdalena that marries that *other* Heinrich (we thought). But where's our "new" Christina who marries OUR Heinrich and moves with him and several of their children to Buffalo in 1837? We could not find any more Maria Christina Dressels born to Adam and his wife. Strange. We moved on to documenting the rest of their family in Buffalo, and in doing so, we find Christina Dressel Betz's DEATH record in 1852. On it is indicated her date of birth: 7 April 1790. Huh?! That's the date of birth for her SISTER, Maria Magdalena Dressel. So we returned to our notes about the Feilbingert church records and found a Christina Dressel (daughter of Adam) who was CONFIRMED in 1804. Confirmation age is usually 14. 1804 minus 14 equals 1790. Again, the birth year of (we thought) her sister Magdalena. Keep in mind that finding these different pieces of information took place disjointedly over a nine-month period, and we only started putting these pieces together in the last couple of weeks. So, we now have significant evidence to believe that: * There was no "new" Maria Christina Dressel born sometime in the 1790s (who married our Heinrich about 20 years later) for whom we just hadn't found birth record yet; * That the Maria Magdalena Dressel, first daughter born after the death of her sister Maria Christina, was CALLED Christina even though her legal name was M. Magdalena. (And it's this that I want to know about -- how common was something like this?); and * That the marriage certificate that I found for Heinrich and Magdalena is indeed that of "OUR" Heinrich and Christina, that she used her legal name on this civil document. The branch this broke off was that of Heinrich's parents. We thought our Heinrich was the son of Valentin Betz and Maria Magdalena Wagner. We'd found his birth record (and I guess we just hadn't found the birth record of Heinrich, son of Jacob). But if all the above is true (and we really believe it is), then our Heinrich is actually the son of Jacob Betz and Anna Maria Seiz. Further evidence that this is true is that our Heinrich and Christina's first born son is named JACOB and NONE of their sons are named Valentin. (And I'm kicking myself because two weeks before we discovered all this, I sent off a request to the Civil Archivist for this region to research the line of Valentin Betz!) I'm very curious to hear your thoughts on this matter. Sincerely, Jillaine Smith, Washington DC http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~jillaine (which has not yet been edited to reflect the above new information) __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com

For Jillaine, I have no answers, but I would like to pose another question, perhaps related. Have any of you out there found a child born in year xxxx, and then another child with the *exact* same name born a few years later, without the first child dying? Could it be that there might be 2 children in the same family with the same name (ala George Foreman) - and I know that there is no variation in name - e.g. 2 Johann Jacobs. I have scoured for a death of the first child and not found it. Another example - wife #1 has died, and wife #2 steps in. I have never even in this case found a duplication of names unless the first child with the name has died. So, is it the mistake of the pastor who transcribed an incorrect name? Or could it happen? Jillaine Smith wrote: > > We just uncovered a little bit of a surprise that breaks off one branch of > our tree and grafts a new one onto it (we think). I share it here for a > couple of reasons: > > a) I'm curious to know from others how common the following type of name > change is > and > b) to let other people know about this kind of thing in case it happens to you! > > Our ancestors out of Feilbingert, Rheinpfalz (just south of Kreuznach) are > Joh. Heinrich Betz and his wife Maria Christina Dressel. We already > figured out that most people whose names started with Johann or Maria or > Anna usually went by their middle name, and in fact, this is what we see on > most of the church records for this couple. He goes by Heinrich (while > still in Germany; Henry after moving to Buffalo, NY), and she goes by > Christina. > > When I was in the Pfalz last spring, and with the stateside assistance of > my microfilm-reading cousin, we found the parents of each of these two > people. He was son of Valentin Betz (we thought), and she was daughter of > Adam Dressel. > > In Germany, I tried unsuccessfully to find Heinrich's and Christina's > marriage record. Instead, I found a marriage record for Heinrich Betz and > Maria Magdalena Dressel. This Heinrich was the son, not of Valentin, but > of Jacob Betz; but Magdalena was also the daughter of Adam Dressel. We > figured that the two sisters (Christina and Magdalena) just happened to > marry two different Heinrich Betzes; we'd seen stuff like this happen > before. I took a copy of this marriage record home anyway, in case we later > found a connection to this other Heinrich. Good thing I did. > > As we burrowed into the church records to find the births of our Dressel > ancestress, we discovered that the Maria Christina we thought was ours was > born in 1783 but she died six years later in 1789! We figured that, as > Germans often did back then, that the next daughter born would be named > Maria Christina. BUT! The next daughter born, 7 April 1790, they named > Maria Magdalena. Ah... here's the Magdalena that marries that *other* > Heinrich (we thought). > > But where's our "new" Christina who marries OUR Heinrich and moves with him > and several of their children to Buffalo in 1837? We could not find any > more Maria Christina Dressels born to Adam and his wife. Strange. > > We moved on to documenting the rest of their family in Buffalo, and in > doing so, we find Christina Dressel Betz's DEATH record in 1852. On it is > indicated her date of birth: 7 April 1790. Huh?! That's the date of birth > for her SISTER, Maria Magdalena Dressel. > > So we returned to our notes about the Feilbingert church records and found > a Christina Dressel (daughter of Adam) who was CONFIRMED in > 1804. Confirmation age is usually 14. 1804 minus 14 equals 1790. Again, > the birth year of (we thought) her sister Magdalena. > > Keep in mind that finding these different pieces of information took place > disjointedly over a nine-month period, and we only started putting these > pieces together in the last couple of weeks. > > So, we now have significant evidence to believe that: > > * There was no "new" Maria Christina Dressel born sometime in the 1790s > (who married our Heinrich about 20 years later) for whom we just hadn't > found birth record yet; > > * That the Maria Magdalena Dressel, first daughter born after the death of > her sister Maria Christina, was CALLED Christina even though her legal name > was M. Magdalena. (And it's this that I want to know about -- how common > was something like this?); and > > * That the marriage certificate that I found for Heinrich and Magdalena is > indeed that of "OUR" Heinrich and Christina, that she used her legal name > on this civil document. > > The branch this broke off was that of Heinrich's parents. We thought our > Heinrich was the son of Valentin Betz and Maria Magdalena Wagner. We'd > found his birth record (and I guess we just hadn't found the birth record > of Heinrich, son of Jacob). But if all the above is true (and we really > believe it is), then our Heinrich is actually the son of Jacob Betz and > Anna Maria Seiz. Further evidence that this is true is that our Heinrich > and Christina's first born son is named JACOB and NONE of their sons are > named Valentin. > > (And I'm kicking myself because two weeks before we discovered all this, I > sent off a request to the Civil Archivist for this region to research the > line of Valentin Betz!) > > I'm very curious to hear your thoughts on this matter. > > Sincerely, > > Jillaine Smith, Washington DC > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~jillaine > (which has not yet been edited to reflect the above new information) > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. > http://im.yahoo.com > > ==== PFALZ Mailing List ==== > Going on vacation longer than 4 days? Go to > http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/intl/DEU/PFALZ.html > to unsubscribe

----- Original Message ----- From: "Karen Kolb" Sent: Friday, January 19, 2001 3:43 PM > So, is it the mistake of the pastor who transcribed an incorrect name? > Or could it happen? I have seen a correction in the names several times in church registers. Sometimes the given name of the father was changed and sometimes it is the child's where the given names are added to or lined through. I don't remember it happening for the mother but I suppose that happened also. I don't think that I ever saw the surname changed. Karen Grossart

Karen Kolb wrote: > > Have any of you out there found a child born in year xxxx, and then > another child with the *exact* same name born a few years later, without > the first child dying? Could it be that there might be 2 children in the > same family with the same name (ala George Foreman) - and I know that > there is no variation in name - e.g. 2 Johann Jacobs. I have scoured for > a death of the first child and not found it. > Yes I have found it a number of times, even just today. The answer is that that the first child died but there is no known record of the death. Recording the death of very young children was not a very high priority. bob gillis

At 04:43 PM 01/19/2001 -0500, Karen Kolb wrote: >Have any of you out there found a child born in year xxxx, and then >another child with the *exact* same name born a few years later, without >the first child dying? >Could it be that there might be 2 children in the >same family with the same name (ala George Foreman) - and I know that >there is no variation in name - e.g. 2 Johann Jacobs. I have scoured for >a death of the first child and not found it. I've not run into this. Have you found proof that the first child lived beyond the birth of the second child with the same name? For example, look for confirmations when they're 14, or marriage records. If you can't find existence of the first child past the date of the birth of the second child, it's likely that the first child did die and for some reason the death wasn't recorded, or you just can't find it because the pastor's handwriting was bad! <grin> >Another example - wife #1 has died, and wife #2 steps in. I have never >even in this case found a duplication of names unless the first child >with the name has died. > >So, is it the mistake of the pastor who transcribed an incorrect name? >Or could it happen? I suppose anything could happen, but I'd look for evidence that the first child lived beyond the second child. -- Jillaine http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~jillaine Feilbingert, Rheinpfalz and Schwarzwald to Buffalo 1837-1850 BETZ; BOGDONOFF; DRESSEL; FASSNACHT; GLUNZ; JAUCH; SCHMIDT; SESS _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com