This is not directly related to the list, but I have noticed that many of you have the ability to use the German punctuation, double "s" etc in your e-mail. Is there a special setting on Windows that allows us to do that? Would someone respond to this off the list who could tell me how to reset my computer that way? Thanks for any help you are able to offer! Karla

Hartleys schrieb: > Diedesheim, Bavaria, does not come up when I search for LDS > records. Just the one in Baden is listed. Hi Cheryl, I am sure you are looking for Deidesheim (near Neustadt/Weinstrasse, in former times Neustadt/Haardt). Exchange e and i. For the rest I will contact you later. Best regards -- Fred Krebs fred@krebs-onl.de www.krebs-onl.de www.krebs-onl.de/genealogy www.krebs-onl.de/pfalz Tel +49 6353/915200 Fax +49 6353/915201

In May 1731 Johan Henrick KNOPP, wife Katrena, and 5 children sailed on board the ship "Samuel" from Rotterdam via Cowes to Philadelphia, where they arrived in August 1731. A church entry in Pennsylvania referred to them as Palatines. All attempts to find a locality of origin for them have so far been unsuccessful. The children variously used the spellings KNOP, KNOPP, KNOB, KNOBB, and in the ensuing years at least 19 different variants. Has anyone working the Pfalz encountered a KNOPP/KNOB/KNUPP emigrant family? We would really like to get "past the beach." Im Mai 1731 segelten Johan Henrick KNOPP, samt Ehefrau Katrena und 5 Kindern an Bord der "Samuel" von Rotterdam über Cowes nach Philadelphia, wo sie im August an Land gelangten. In einem späteren Schreiben hat man sie "Pfälzer" genannt, was damals als Sammelbegriff für alles Deutschsprechende gegolten habe. In späteren Jahren kommen ganze 19 verschiedene Schreibweisen vor, darunter in der zweiten Generation KNOP, KNUPP, KNOB. Um einen Herkunftsort wird dringend gesucht. Alle Hinweise sind bisher erfolglos. Hat jemand zufällig auf einen Familiennamen KNOPP usw. in der angegeben Aera gestossen? Sie müssten halt von irgendwo herstammen! Responses okay in English / auf deutsch / in't Nederlands. Bert Knupp in Music City USA

Using the two web links I just sent for Bellheim you can use to find Riessel. Riessel is in Oldenburg (Niedersachsen) and the postal code is 49393. Riessel is an area of the town of Lohne now. In distance it is 217.6 miles W of Berlin. There is also a town of Riesel which is 188.1 miles WSW of Berlin or a little NW of Kassel. Nancy Lowell Kuntz wrote: > > Hi Listers, > > The "Kirchenbüchern der katholischen Pfarrei Fischbach" contains a > baptismal record in 1754 which names the place of origin of the infant > as Reißel (Reissel). I can't find this village in the index of my Euro > Atlas of Germany, or on the map around the village of Fischbach. Can > anyone help me locate this place? > > Thanks in advance. > > Lowell Kuntz

Bellheim is in the Rheinland-Pfalz - Postal code 76756. It is situated 319.5 miles SW of Berlin. Or Between Oppau and Karlsruhe and a little west. If you use the ShtetlSeeker at: http://www.jewishgen.org/ShtetlSeeker/loctown.htm you can bring up the location on the map by inputting the town name, choosing Germany at the down arrow, and clicking Search. The town will be shown with a Red Star. I use the UniServe to check on old and present day towns and addresses. It's great for postal codes also. I hope the link below works for everyone. http://www.uniserv-online.de/cgi-bin/OE/start.pl?product=post&country=d&language=e&maske=a Nancy

I notice that many immigrants sailed from LeHavre. Some arrived in New York and Philadelphia and made their way westward I understand that travelers could come up the Hudson from New York to Albany, then take the Erie Canal and enter the Great Lakes to get closer to their destination. Others entered at New Orleans and traveled by steam boat up the Mississippi and its tributaries. I'm not sure how much rail transportation there was in the U.S. in the 1840's and '50's. Overland travel was very slow and water travel was the easier mode. >From the Immigrant Ships Transcribers Guild, the passenger list of the Ship Carack and details of the voyage are given (October 1854). http://istg.rootsweb.com/v2/1800v2/carack18541028.html (Hope this works!) Mary Ann Balzer-Sharp relates the experiences of the family of Jakob Balzer. They went by boat from their home in Neuburg am Rhein, Germany, to Strasbourg, by rail to Paris, and then to Le Havre. They were there 8 days before sailing for New Orleans. They encountered a storm while on the 42 day trip. After arriving in New Orleans and remaining for 8 days, they steamed up the Mississippi to Quincy, IL arriving there on 10 November 1854. Total traveling time was 68 days. Nan Harvey ----- Original Message ----- From: <DmRice@aol.com> To: <PFALZ-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2000 3:04 PM Subject: Re: [PFALZ] 1836 Emigration from Pfalz > Havre > NY > I too would like to know why my ancestors from Pfalz and Rhennish Hessen > chose to embark at LeHavre. > It looks so much simpler just to go up the Rhine - Why didnt they? > > Barb Rice

Hi Listers, The "Kirchenbüchern der katholischen Pfarrei Fischbach" contains a baptismal record in 1754 which names the place of origin of the infant as Reißel (Reissel). I can't find this village in the index of my Euro Atlas of Germany, or on the map around the village of Fischbach. Can anyone help me locate this place? Thanks in advance. Lowell Kuntz

For anybody else, like myself, interested in some genealogy related links, not exclusively limited to the Pfalz, you might want to visit this: (some info is in English but German definitely helps) http://www.bawue.de/~hanacek/eindex.htm >From there exploring the site will take to others, some of which you might include are these: http://www.bawue.de/~hanacek/info/earchive.htm http://www.bawue.de/~hanacek/dgene/dprefov.htm http://www.bawue.de/~hanacek/info/darchi11.htm#1102 Anybody know of other links to Zweibrücken in the mid 1700's relating to settlement there, religion, migration from there to other parts of Germany, (not the USA), I would be appreciative to see them here. Herb. herbpalm@juno.com herbpalm@flash.net Albuquerque, New Mexico Please visit my "Genealogy" web page at: http://www.flash.net/~herbpalm ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

On Tue, 11 Apr 2000 16:04:09 EDT DmRice@aol.com writes: >I too would like to know why my ancestors from Pfalz and Rhennish Hessen >chose to embark at LeHavre. Maybe the French border, being closer, was easier to get to for a variety of reasons. >. . .The FEIGELs from Bellheim traveled there by way of Paris. I couldn't find Bellheim on my fairly current Autoatlas and may not exsist any more. Snip . . . >I am not sure how the GRIESS family from Kircheimbolanden or the nearby >DECKER cousins came - Havre is the only port with which I can connect. I found a slightly different spelling - KIRCHHEIMBOLANDEN (with two H's) but it's near Kaiserslauten, in the area you are asking about. >It looks so much simpler just to go up the Rhine - Why didnt they? Actually, it would be down the Rhein. It flows northwest into Holland and empties around Rotterdam into the Northsea. That might have been more difficult in those days. Herb. herbpalm@juno.com herbpalm@flash.net Albuquerque, New Mexico Please visit my "Genealogy" web page at: http://www.flash.net/~herbpalm ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

On Tue, 11 Apr 2000 16:36:02 -0600 Hartleys <hartleys@mciworld.com> writes: Snip . . . >His military records list his place of birth as Diedesheim, Bavaria. >Prior to this I had only suspected that the family was from somewhere >near Oppau. I found only one DIEDESHEIM on my fairly recent German Autoatlas, that one is about 30km (19 miles) airline distance east-southeast from Heidelberg. Diedesheim looks like a northern suburb of MOSBACH. Looking at my 1815-1866 Central Europe Map(from the web) that puts it just inside Baden. That is however a long distance from Bavaria further east. There could have been another town/village by that name there then, but not now. OPPAU looks like a suburb of and just north of Ludwigshafen, that is about 10 km (just over 6 miles) south-east from Grossniedesheim. Ludwigshafen is right on the border of Baden and the Pfalz. The old part of the town, as of today, is on the east side of the Rhein and more than likely was in Baden in the 1800 time frame. >My first question is, how much did Bavarians move around during this >time period? I found an IGI christening record from Grossniedesheim, 11 >miles from Diedesheim, for Andreas MüLLER. Using the same measurements, the distance between Grossniedesheim and Diedesheim is more like 70km or 44 miles, again airline distance. Where did you get the 11 mile distance from? Snip . . . >Is it likely that a family moved around in a ten or twenty mile area in >this time period? I was under the impression that there was little >freedom to move. That I don't know, 20 miles was a great distance then. I have a 3ggf born about 1755 in Zweibrücken, Pfalz and he died in 1828 in Schlicherun, Düsseldorf, Rheinland. Now that is a great distance. What caused his family to relocate was a result of religious persecution. History repeats itself. > . . .The family was Evangelisch. Did every little town >have a church, or would christenings have taken place in a larger town >nearby? During two visits (one just last summer) and traveling extensivily, I observed even the smallest village had at least one church, more if different denominations required one. The churches were well preserved and were built well before the turn of the century. They all also had at least one Gaststube, but that is another story. >Diedesheim, Bavaria, does not come up when I search for LDS >records. Just the one in Baden is listed. Try a search on Mosbach, Baden instead. Diedesheim in under the jurisdiction (Kreis) of Mosbach. Hope I was of some help. Herb. herbpalm@juno.com herbpalm@flash.net Albuquerque, New Mexico Please visit my "Genealogy" web page at: http://www.flash.net/~herbpalm ________________________________________________________________ YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET! Juno now offers FREE Internet Access! Try it today - there's no risk! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

Finally I have something to ask the list. I have some general questions about life in the Pfalz region in the first half of the 19th century (1800-1850). I received new info today about Philipp MüLLER/MILLER, b. 1838, who I believe to be the brother of Andrew MüLLER/MILLER, b. 1847, and the son of Philipp MILLER, b. 1810. The Philipp in question was killed in battle in the American Civil War. His military records list his place of birth as Diedesheim, Bavaria. Prior to this I had only suspected that the family was from somewhere near Oppau. My first question is, how much did Bavarians move around during this time period? I found an IGI christening record from Grossniedesheim, 11 miles from Diedesheim, for Andreas MüLLER. The christening was one week after the birth date that I have for Andrew. The names of the parents match, but Müller is such a common name, it is difficult to know if I am looking at the right family. Is it likely that a family moved around in a ten or twenty mile area in this time period? I was under the impression that there was little freedom to move. The family was Evangelisch. Did every little town have a church, or would christenings have taken place in a larger town nearby? Diedesheim, Bavaria, does not come up when I search for LDS records. Just the one in Baden is listed. Anyway, this is a big breakthrough for me. I just need to know where to take it next. Cheryl Hartley, Beckley, WV

I don't have any written information but I would think this is likely. The family would have traveled by wagon or more likely two wheeled cart to the head of navigation on a tributary of the Seine in France, then by river boat down the Seine to Havre. The adults would have walked and the children and the family belongings would have been caarted. In that time period and earlier people moved from New England to Ohio and to Indiana, much longer jouneys than from the Pfalz to Le Havre. Yes the trip down the Rhine to Rotterdam would have been easier but many more ships sailed from Havre to NYC and New Orleans as that is where the mail and freight traffic was. bob gillis Bjorkman wrote: > > Last week I was successful finding the ships manifest for my > THURN ancestors from the port of Havre, France to New York. > > They lived in Kirchheimbolanden in the Pfalz, which is about 30 > km NNW of Kaiserslautern. The question is, " How did they travel > from KB to the port of Havre? > > There is no direct river connection ...... were railroads running > that then? Stages? They traveled with their two and five year old sons, > so walking was out of the question. > > Does anyone have any information on the most likely mode of travel in > this period, either in print or in anecdotal documentation? > > BTW, the American flag ship, ROGER SHERMAN, carried 190 passengers. > Thirteen were French, the remaining 177 were Bavarians. It appears they > may have had an advertised one-way special running in the Pfalz > newspapers. :-) > > Bob Bjorkman

REPOSTING OF DATA Would SKS please consider assisting in an effort to identify and locate references to the following: Johannes [Jerj/Georg] [Opffer/Opfer]/b. 1734, Germany, Urbach/Neuwied -farmer/m1,1761/m2,[Germany]/d.July 15,1817[Canada] -w1...Anna Dorothea Schmidt-Endters [widow of a Peter Endters who d.1752, son of Matheaus Endters of Doernbach][daughter of a Tiels Schmidt]/b.May 31,1734/m.1761/d.[Germany] -w2...Elwyn Simons [nothing is known of her past] -children: not known if Anna's or Elwyn's John: b. 1762, Germany Catherine: b. 1764, more than likely Germany It is rumoured that the Opffers[?], uprooted by the prevailing unsettled weather, crop failures, wars, famine, and family ruin, escaped, as best they could, from the Palatine region to the embarkation point and onto Rotterdam [following the death of his mother, who had been ill for some time]...then to Philadelphia, on the "Minerva" [either on October 10, October 29 or November 09]. Various references are unclear. But the November 09, 1767 date is most probable, but not fully supported yet. Sincerely, Al Dempster -- GOD IS WATCHING YOU, SO MAKE IT A GOOD ONE! Visit: www.myfamily.com for the latest in our Family's genealogy. An ancient philosopher once said, "When here is there, and there is here, the picture is more confused, and the idea is less clear." "Whoever sees evil around him, let him change it first with his hands, then his tongue, and if it has not been affected, lastly with his heart." Paraphrasing from the Book of Islam.

Would SKS please assist. I am trying to find a site or person who may have knowledge of a ship called the Minerva, under a Captain Spurrier, which sailed from Rotterdam, then to Cowes, then to Philadelphia in 1767. This ship carried my ancestors out of the Palatines and on to the New World. Aboard her, were Johannes Georg Opffer, [w] Elwyn Simons, [c] Catherine, and John. It is believed that when they reached Philadelphia, and before they reached their homestead in upper New Jersey, that the surname had changed to Upper...John George Upper...and then to George Upper. Al Dempster [OPPER, OPFER, OPFFER, UPPER, and variations] -- GOD IS WATCHING YOU, SO MAKE IT A GOOD ONE! Visit: www.myfamily.com for the latest in our Family's genealogy. An ancient philosopher once said, "When here is there, and there is here, the picture is more confused, and the idea is less clear." "Whoever sees evil around him, let him change it first with his hands, then his tongue, and if it has not been affected, lastly with his heart." Paraphrasing from the Book of Islam.

I too would like to know why my ancestors from Pfalz and Rhennish Hessen chose to embark at LeHavre. The FEIGELs from Bellheim traveled there by way of Paris. (Some of them went to N.York - Others to N.Oleans and up river to St.Louis and Indiana. This was in the 1850 decade) I assume the ELZERs & ROTHs may have used the same route. I am not sure how the GRIESS family from Kircheimbolanden or the nearby DECKER cousins came - Havre is the only port with which I can connect. It looks so much simpler just to go up the Rhine - Why didnt they? Barb Rice

Last week I was successful finding the ships manifest for my THURN ancestors from the port of Havre, France to New York. They lived in Kirchheimbolanden in the Pfalz, which is about 30 km NNW of Kaiserslautern. The question is, " How did they travel from KB to the port of Havre? There is no direct river connection ...... were railroads running that then? Stages? They traveled with their two and five year old sons, so walking was out of the question. Does anyone have any information on the most likely mode of travel in this period, either in print or in anecdotal documentation? BTW, the American flag ship, ROGER SHERMAN, carried 190 passengers. Thirteen were French, the remaining 177 were Bavarians. It appears they may have had an advertised one-way special running in the Pfalz newspapers. :-) Bob Bjorkman

I AM INTERSTED IN THE FOLLOWING SURNAMES, ALL PROTESTANT, FROM OSTHOFEN NEAR WORMS, 1700-1800 - MEHSENGER or MESSENGER, KLAUDER or CLAUDER, and WILL. Also intersted in WILL from Friedberg in Wetterau, Protestant, erlay 1700's and before Thanks T Diemer New Orleans

Mae and List: Mae and List, I am related to Friedrich Christian Schwab (born 14 Apr 1816 in Massweiler. He was married to Anna Elizabeth Wolf, daughter of Johann Jacob Wolf and Maria Elizabeth Keller (also written as Kellerin in the old days since she is female). They were married in Reifenberg on 20 Dec 1843. Anna Elizabeth Wolf was born on 14 Aug 1819 in Rieschweiler and Christened on 19 Aug 1891. She emigrated around 1853 from Germany to the USA. She died on 20 Mar 1877 in Ohio. ----- If you have any information I would appreciate any help. John C. Heiby, O.D.

Does anyone recognize these surnames: HOUSEHOLDER/HAUSSHALTER; BALMER; SIGLER; KREPS; HORINE; HAGER; KERSHNER; MILLER; MARTIN; WOLF; SPRECKER; BEECH; DOWNIN; COCKSWELL; ALVORD; WELLINGS; FOWLER; MACE; GAUDINIER, and associate them with NEIBERT/NIBERT? Any help will be gratefully appreciated. Mae Neibert Nielson attamaya@ccountry.net

One of my early immigrant ancestors, Jacob Cramlick, immigrated to Maryland before 1755. There is strong speculation that his proper surname was GRAMLICH and that he came from Palatine. He was born c.1721. (His surname is spelled seven different ways in the US but his signature looks like Gramlich so we think he was illiterate in English but not necessarily in German. Most of his descendents use one form or another of Cramblit(t) or Cramblet(t).) Any leads on a Jacob Gramlich b.c.1721 in Palatine greatly appreciated. John Albertini Dexter, ME