Bob, I am the submitter of this diary entry. My g-grandfather WAS listed in Germans to America and I don't know where you got the notion that he was not! I have never received any prior correspondance with either "Margaret" or you in regard to this subject. Germans, regardless of whether their name sounded "German" to the French people writing it down at the port of LeHavre, were listed!! Also, regarding your statement that "Jordan is obviously not a German name;" The Jordan ancestry in Rödersheim has been traced back to the late 1500's which is as far back as the records go. This name was probably taken by my German family during the reign of Caesar Gordianus, III in 239 A.D. during which time that area in Germany was ruled by Rome. Coins have been found in Rödersheim with this rulers visage and name . By the way, I have come across hundreds of German Jordan immigrants in Ohio while researching my family! Natalie On 9 Apr Margaret, Mml45@aol.com, asked why her ggf and family was not in GtA. The diary entries that Natalie, KIsland@aol.com, quoted give one reason why. Natalie's GGF went from Rodersheim to Le Havre by railroad and then to Liverpool by one ship and on to NYC by another. Unless the Nevada originated in Hamburg or Bremen or was known to the transcribers to have Germans on board, it is very likely that Heinrich Ludwig Jordan is not in GtA. Also Jordan is not obviously a German name. bob gillis ----------------------- Headers -------------------------------- Return-Path: <PFALZ-L-request@rootsweb.com> Received: from rly-ye01.mx.aol.com (rly-ye01.mail.aol.com [172.18.151.198]) by air-ye03.mx.aol.com (v71.10) with ESMTP; Fri, 21 Apr 2000 17:12:22 -0400 Received: from bl-11.rootsweb.com (bl-11.rootsweb.com [209.85.6.27]) by rly-ye01.mx.aol.com (v71.10) with ESMTP; Fri, 21 Apr 2000 17:12:04 -0400 Received: (from slist@localhost) by bl-11.rootsweb.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) id OAA22028; Fri, 21 Apr 2000 14:10:21 -0700 (PDT) Resent-Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 14:10:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-Sender: rpgillis@bellatlantic.net Fri Apr 21 14:10:20 2000 Message-ID: <3900C382.4C49@bellatlantic.net> Date: Fri, 21 Apr 2000 17:09:22 -0400 From: bob gillis <rpgillis@bellatlantic.net> Reply-To: rpgillis@bellatlantic.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 Old-To: pfalz-l <pfalz-l@rootsweb.com> Old-CC: Mml45@aol.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: [PFALZ] Re: Germans to America Resent-Message-ID: <UP8u-C.A.-XF.8OMA5@bl-11.rootsweb.com> To: PFALZ-L@rootsweb.com Resent-From: PFALZ-L@rootsweb.com X-Mailing-List: <PFALZ-L@rootsweb.com> archive/latest/3239 X-Loop: PFALZ-L@rootsweb.com Precedence: list Resent-Sender: PFALZ-L-request@rootsweb.com >>

Liebe Listenteilnehmer, für die zahlreichen Zusprüche und Anregungen in dieser Angelegenheit möchte ich allen auf das Herzlichste danken. Ich hatte nur eine bittere Erfahrung, die aber umso schwerer wiegt. Der Moderator der Liste DEUTSCHLAND-L namens "Johann" alias "Don Watson" alias "dwat" hat mich u.a. mit dem Vermerk, daß er kein Sozialamt sei, aus der Liste geworfen. Ein erneuter Versuch meinerseits, indem ich mich über meine 2. E-mail-Adresse einloggte und ihm unter Hinweis auf meine Homepage unter http://mitglied.tripod.de/froboesefamily/ anzeigte, daß ich - genau wie er - ein ehrliches genealogisches Interesse verfolgt, und nur wegen der hilfsbedürftigen Dame, die eines Tages vor meiner Haustüre stand, über meinen Schatten gesprungen bin, wurde erneut mit dem sofortigen Rausschmiß quittiert. Inzwischen - und jetzt kommt das Ungeheure an dieser Angelegenheit (!!!) - erfuhr ich privat über andere Listenteilnehmer, daß er e-mails von diesen Teilnehmern, die über die Liste an mich gerichtet wurden, abgefangen und auch ihnen mit den sofortigen Rauswurf gedroht hat. Jetzt kommt mein Anliegen: Wer weiß etwas Näheres über die wahre Identität von "Johann", der auch als "Don Watson" bzw. "dwat" auftritt? Wer hat wie ich, negative Erfahrungen gemacht? Sein Verhalten als "Diktator" einer Liste verstößt eindeutig gegen die Regeln von Rootsweb. Ich habe ihm eine letzte Chance eingeräumt, Vernunft einkehren zu lassen, und erwäge im Zweifelsfall, gemeinsam mit anderen Betroffenen an die Administration von "Rootsweb.com" heranzutreten. Und noch ein offenes Wort unter uns Familienforschern: Wem die Lebenden dermaßen gleichgültig sind, braucht sich um die Ahnen auch nicht mehr zu bemühen. Oder? So, jetzt habe ich Sie aber genug strapaziert und wünschen Ihnen allen eingesegnetes Osterfest Mit freundlichen Grüßen aus Wasserburg Dr. Rolf Froböse

The first phrase should have been "conjugum Leuontey fuere". Sorry Listers! Lowell Kuntz

In the Catholic Parish Baptismal records of Bruchweiler I find the following phrase used for the 4 older siblings of my 5 x great grandfather: "conjugum Leuontey" (the handwriting is hard to read but this is my best guess as to the spelling of the 2nd word). For him the phrase is "conjugum et civium". I think that these phrases refer to his parents. Can anyone tell me the meaning of them? Thanks for your help. Lowell Kuntz

On 9 Apr Margaret, Mml45@aol.com, asked why her ggf and family was not in GtA. The diary entries that Natalie, KIsland@aol.com, quoted give one reason why. Natalie's GGF went from Rodersheim to Le Havre by railroad and then to Liverpool by one ship and on to NYC by another. Unless the Nevada originated in Hamburg or Bremen or was known to the transcribers to have Germans on board, it is very likely that Heinrich Ludwig Jordan is not in GtA. Also Jordan is not obviously a German name. bob gillis

I also want to echo the comments about the German Research companion. I used the copy at the local library quite often and find it very handy. It is very well written and prepared resource guide. It is a very good resource to have researching German ancestry both in the US and Germany. From my own experiences, it is a guide I highly recommend. Sarah Adams -----Original Message----- From: Vkhoff@aol.com <Vkhoff@aol.com> To: PFALZ-L@rootsweb.com <PFALZ-L@rootsweb.com> Date: Friday, April 21, 2000 10:45 AM Subject: [PFALZ] Re: The German Research Companion >I want to reiterate what a great book the German Research Companion is. I >just received my copy and find it to be an amazing help with my research. I >also am not affiliated with the Lorelei Press. I am just an amateur >genealogist who needs all the help she can get! Valerie Knecht Hoff in >Bellevue, WA >

The Topics are too numerous to give a representative listing, however, here are a few: Archives in Germany--federal, state, local German Archive terminology Cities in the United States that published German-language newspapers Postal Codes of german places German history German geography Medical terms, etc., German and Latin German Genealogy Vocabulary German POW camps in the US during WWII US Libraries with large German Genealogy holdings maps of German rail road system in the 1800's German Embassies in the US Naming patterns; origin of last names The calendars and when certain areas adopted the "new" calendar Reference after reference for finding out things about Germany Best part of all is that no knowledge of the German language is needed. Everything is explained in English. Nan ----- Original Message ----- From: <Mml45@aol.com> To: <PFALZ-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, April 21, 2000 11:17 AM Subject: Re: [PFALZ] Re: The German Research Companion > In a message dated 4/21/00 11:37:44 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Vkhoff@aol.com > writes: > > Hello, > > I sure would like a hint as to some of the topics that are covered

Many thanks to those of you who sent names.

In a message dated 4/21/00 11:37:44 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Vkhoff@aol.com writes: Hello, I sure would like a hint as to some of the topics that are covered in this book. thanks.... Just wonder whether I could use it... Thanks... Margaret << I want to reiterate what a great book the German Research Companion is. I just received my copy and find it to be an amazing help with my research. I also am not affiliated with the Lorelei Press. I am just an amateur genealogist who needs all the help she can get! Valerie Knecht Hoff in Bellevue, WA >>

I want to reiterate what a great book the German Research Companion is. I just received my copy and find it to be an amazing help with my research. I also am not affiliated with the Lorelei Press. I am just an amateur genealogist who needs all the help she can get! Valerie Knecht Hoff in Bellevue, WA

Dear Lowell, The Pirmasens Genealogical Study Group has published a family book of Bruchweiler (1700 - 1793). Both KUNTZ and WACHTEL surnames are listed in the surname index. Both surnames also appear in the Familybooks of Bundenthal and Dahn and WACHTEL in the Fischbach book, all of these are also from the Pirmasens Group. They have a web-site at http://home.t-online.de/home/braun.b/geneengl.html I would suggest that you contact the above group for further information. They provide extracts from the above books for a small cost. Hope this helps, Manfred . > Subject: [PFALZ] WACHTLER/WACHTEL, Ottilia/Odile > Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 20:57:48 -0400 > From: Lowell Kuntz <jlkuntz@fuse.net> > To: PFALZ-L@rootsweb.com > > I am looking for the birth date, birthplace (most likely in the Pfalz), > and parents of Ottilia/Odile WACHTLER/WACHTEL, my 6X great-grandmother. > Her husband was Joannes Georg/Jean Georges KUNTZ, and they lived in > Bruchweiler, Pfalz when their son Mathias/Mathieu was born in 1732. > > The 1753 marriage record of Mathias/Mathieu at the Abbey of Notre Dame > in Sturzelbronn, Lorraine lists his mother’s surname as Ottilia > WACHTLERIN. I believe that the “IN” is not part of her surname, but the > feminine indication. The Cercle Généalogique de Moselle publication > “Table des Mariages enregistrés ? Sturzelbronn 1697 ? 1784” shows her > name as Odile WACHTEL. Neither record indicates the village that she > was born in. > > I am posting this on both the PFALZ and ALSACE LORRAINE lists since > Bruchweiler and Sturzelbronn are so close to each other. > > Thanks for any information or suggestions. > > Lowell Kuntz

Hello all, I received my copy of THE GERMAN RESEARCH COMPANION by Shirley J. Riemer this week. It is over 600 pages chock full of information about Germany as well as German research from the U. S. >From the flyer that I received a few weeks ago, it states that the pre-publication price will be in effect until May 15, 2000. $22.00 plus $4.00 for s&h. After May 15, the price will be $28.00 plus $4.00 for s&h. Send check (no credit cards) to: Lorelei Press P. O. Box 221356 Sacramento, CA 95822-8356 Disclaimer: I am not affiliated with Lorelei Press in any way. Just want to share this wonderful resource with the list. Nan

Subject: Church Microfilm in Salt Lake City Utah This sounds great. I will be in Frankfort on May 10th to visit the Churches of: Bellheim, Germersheim and Evangelische Landeskirche der Plalz. I have copies of, baptism, marriage and death. Would be great to get a better copy. I do want pictures of these Churches. I have learned a great deal since I have joined this Web Site. It is great and 10+ people have written and told me the same story, that I will not find the graves of 270 yrs ago. Records say they are in the Church - Cemetery and that is good enough. American Airlines is doing my vacation and they do not know if there are buses to Offenbach, which is just across the River from Frankfort, Muhlhofen, Ingenheim, Isheim, Germersheim where they were married. The brides family: David Preisch/Breisch were from Offenbach. Does anyone know about the book entitled "1200 Jahre in Offenbach 784-1984 A History of Offenbach about 1" thick in English? My son is US Air Force retired, my g'daughter was born in Stuttgart 1972. - He advises me to rent a car - I do not want to unless I am unable to get around any other way. My GERMAN Families: Hans Wilhelm Harloss + Anna Margaretha Huppert John Wilhelm Volger 1706 _ Anna Catharina Georg Harless - first Harless in Wlterod b. 1639 + Anna Otlelia Radel d. 1701 Johann Wilhelm 1660; Anna 1662; Chrestianus Harlos 1662 Lutheran Parish, Welterod, Germany The Direct Line: Ferdinand Harless 1680 Muhlhofen, Rheiland Pfalz d. Apr 6, 1740 Billingheim + Anna Volger 1685 m. Muhlhofen Pfalz, d. 1752 Billingheim John Philip Harless b. 1716 Muhlofen d. 1772 Montgomery Co, VA USA + Anna Margaretha Preisch b. 9-21-1713 Offenbach Landau Rheiland (these are my gggg grandparents) David Preisch b. 1686 Offenbach Landau d. 7-11-1735 Offenbach + Agnes Hoffman b. 8-25-1686 Offenbach m. 6-27-1713 Offenbach died after 1726 in Germany Hernicus Hoffman b. 1660 Offenbach Landau d. 9-23-1727 Offenbach + Anna Elizabetha 1665 m 2-23-1704/5 d all in Offenbach. ======================== Another question: My great grandmother, Rachel Harless Allison read from a Dutch Bible every day of her life. Her father John purchased the Bible from the Invetory of his Fathers will (Henry Harless Sr d 1815 Madison Co Alabama USA) Henry was the son of John Phillip Harless and Anna Margaretha Preisch (Listed above as the Immigrant Ancestors) I cannot understand why she did not read a German Bible.??? Perhaps a family from that area came to Offenbach & married into the family. Would that be "Black Dutch" German + Dutch??? Hate to ask so many questions, but someone out there knows the answers and tells me. I do appreciate it very much. Just knowing the rules of paying for the grave space saved me time. I have had 3 cousins to look for the graves and did not them. The above info saved me a weeks work and I can plan something else while I am there. Regards, Georgia Hornbuckle Dallas, TX 20 Apr 00

I am looking for anyone researching Freiderich Michael Speyrer who married Catharina Schloegel in Doerrenbach, Pfalz, about 1816. They had a son, Conrad, my great grandfather, and a daughter whose name I do not know. They both died when both children were young. Both children eventually came to USA. I am also looking for a local German researcher in the area of Doerrenbach or Speyer. Can anyone help? Many thanks !

>Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 20:57:48 -0400 >From: Lowell Kuntz <jlkuntz@fuse.net> >To: PFALZ-L@rootsweb.com >Subject: [PFALZ] WACHTLER/WACHTEL, Ottilia/Odile > >I am looking for the birth date, birthplace (most likely in the Pfalz), >and parents of Ottilia/Odile WACHTLER/WACHTEL, my 6X great-grandmother. >Her husband was Joannes Georg/Jean Georges KUNTZ, and they lived in >Bruchweiler, Pfalz when their son Mathias/Mathieu was born in 1732. > >The 1753 marriage record of Mathias/Mathieu at the Abbey of Notre Dame >in Sturzelbronn, Lorraine lists his mother’s surname as Ottilia >WACHTLERIN. I believe that the “IN” is not part of her surname, but the >feminine indication. The Cercle Généalogique de Moselle publication >“Table des Mariages enregistrés ? Sturzelbronn 1697 ? 1784” shows her >name as Odile WACHTEL. Neither record indicates the village that she >was born in. > >I am posting this on both the PFALZ and ALSACE LORRAINE lists since >Bruchweiler and Sturzelbronn are so close to each other. > >Thanks for any information or suggestions. > >Lowell Kuntz > Lowell, That name, Ottilie WACHTEL, is listed in the LDS IGI as from Zinswiller, Bas-Rhin, France. (See http://www.familysearch.org/.) This town appears to be only about 15 miles from Sturzelbronn. Since names are commonly reused by the same families throughout several generations, there is a good possibility that this Ottilie WACHTEL may be a descendant of the same bloodline. -- mailto:fhheld@freewwweb.com _____________________________________________ NetZero - Defenders of the Free World Click here for FREE Internet Access and Email http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html

Max At the Mormon Family History Center you can order 11 microfilms for the Evangelische Kirche Worms 1604-1876. Also there is one microfilm for Katholische Kirche Sankt Lambertus Worms 1594-1794 Earl Ross ----- Original Message ----- From: Max Dinges <bluemax@desupernet.net> To: <PFALZ-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2000 10:31 PM Subject: [PFALZ] Records of Worms > Any one have any sugestions where to find Church records of the Worms > area prior to 1689. > > Max Dinges >

Liebe Listenteilnehmer, darf ich mich ausnahmsweise mit einem Anliegen an Sie wenden, das nichts mit Genealogie zu tun hat? Es handelt sich um eine Dame aus unserem Nachbardorf, die eines Tages vor unserer Tür stand und mir ein Buch anbot, das sie selber geschrieben und herausgegeben hat. Da ich als Journalist von Natur aus ein Herz für Schriftsteller habe, nahm ich ihr ein Exemplar ab. Vor wenigenWochen traf ich sie per Zufall wieder und erkündigt mich nach ihrem Verkaufserfolg. Bei dieser Gelegenheit mußte ich erfahren, daß sie als Mutter einer behinderten Tochter buchstäblich ums "nackte Überleben" kämpft. Ihre Einkünfte reichen gerade aus, um die Miete für eine einfache Wohnung zu bezahlen und selbst dieses ist momentan gefährdet. Das ansprechend illustrierte Buch trägt den Titel "Lola und Leo". Es ist eine Tiererzählung, die sich sowohl an Kinder als auch an Erwachsene wendet. In dem mit viel Herz geschriebenem Buch geht es immer um die Tierliebe in Gestalt guter Taten, die überwiegend auf eigenen Erlebnissen der Autorin beruhen. Wenn Sie wie ich ein Buch erwerben und der Frau helfen möchten, wenden Sie sich bitte schriftlich oder telefonisch an Frau Eva Albrich Lärchenstr. 12c 83533 Edling Tel: 08071-3388 Das Buch kostet inklusive Versand DM 25,- und es eignet sich auch sehr schön als Geschenk. Und noch eine Bitte: Wenn Sie der Meinung sind, daß es nicht richtig war, den Multiplikator "Liste" für diesen Zweck zu verwenden, "schimpfen" Sie bitte mit mir, aber nicht mit Frau Albrich. Sie hat genügend andere Sorgen. Ich wiederum möchte Frau Albrich einfach helfen. Leider bin ich "nur" Journalist und kein Verleger. Ich wünsche allen Listenteilnehmern ein gesegnetes Osterfest Mit freundlichen Grüßen Dr. Rolf Froböse http://mitglied.tripod.de/froboesefamily/

Any one have any sugestions where to find Church records of the Worms area prior to 1689. Max Dinges

I am looking for the birth date, birthplace (most likely in the Pfalz), and parents of Ottilia/Odile WACHTLER/WACHTEL, my 6X great-grandmother. Her husband was Joannes Georg/Jean Georges KUNTZ, and they lived in Bruchweiler, Pfalz when their son Mathias/Mathieu was born in 1732. The 1753 marriage record of Mathias/Mathieu at the Abbey of Notre Dame in Sturzelbronn, Lorraine lists his mother’s surname as Ottilia WACHTLERIN. I believe that the “IN” is not part of her surname, but the feminine indication. The Cercle Généalogique de Moselle publication “Table des Mariages enregistrés ? Sturzelbronn 1697 ? 1784” shows her name as Odile WACHTEL. Neither record indicates the village that she was born in. I am posting this on both the PFALZ and ALSACE LORRAINE lists since Bruchweiler and Sturzelbronn are so close to each other. Thanks for any information or suggestions. Lowell Kuntz

I have JUNG and MAURER lines in Eßweiler and Bosenbach villages of the Pfalz. Nancy ----- Original Message ----- From: John Albertini <johna@telplus.net> To: <PFALZ-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2000 9:17 PM Subject: [PFALZ] Surnames with unknown German ancestry I have the following surnames among my gg or ggg grandparents but don't know where in Germany they came from. There are others I know where in Germany they were from (ALBERTINI from Clausthal-Hannover, CRAMLICH/GRAMLICH from Palatine, KOEPF from Wurttemberg). Any leads appreciated, including which Rootsweb mailing list covers all of Germany in English (DEUTSCHLAND is supposedly all in German). Thank you. I am only on the Baden-Wurttemberg, Niedersachsen, and Pfalz lists now so if you are replying from one of the other lists please reply to me directly not to the list. John Albertini HAGEMEIER HÜLS JUNG KALTMAIER MAURER PFANDER PRESSNIAR REUPER STETTNER