That's right, JOHANNES (also Johannis) is Latin for John. German Johann; English John; French Jean; Italian Giovanni; Spanish Juan; Portuguese Joao (my name); Russian Ivan; Hungarian Janos; Arabian Yahya; Polish Jan; Lithuanian Jonas, etc ----- Original Message ----- From: <smada@webtv.net> To: <PFALZ-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, July 31, 2000 12:17 AM Subject: [PFALZ] Re: John > I believe Johannes was Latin for Johan. > > > ==== PFALZ Mailing List ==== > Going on vacation longer than 4 days? > send your message to Pfalz-L-request@rootsweb.com (click and ready to go) > mailto:Pfalz-L-request@rootsweb.com?subject=unsubscribe >

If you want to get a good idea of how common it was to name children with the same first name, take a look at the registers in any of the German church books! I've look at the KBs of several communities in Pfalz and in Hesse. My ancestors used the same naming patterns . . . as did most of the community. Almost all the male children in the parish are named Johann (something) or Heinrich (something) and the females Anna (something) or Maria (something). I found that when they emigrated to New York, however, they switched the names. Heinrich Jacob became Jacob H., Heinrich Ludwig became Louis (!) H., etc. Kathleen Schilling kschilli@hotmail.com ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com

I have the perplexing problem of three Valentins in one family and they all lived. They went by their first names and not their middle names. Their names are as follows: Valentin Peter Quetschenbach, Valentin Melchoir Quetschenbach, and Valentin Quetschenbach. This same family also had three daughters named Christina and two of the three survived to adulthood. Matching the wife and the kids to the right Valentin has been amusing journey. Oddly of those in my database that did not use Johann or Johannes they opted to use Philip or George and went by their middle names with the acception of one, George Adam Schotthoefer. I have also have one family in my Ackermann lines that has three Johannes Jacob Ackermanns and two of the Jacobs survived to adulthood and both married women named Barbara. Also during this time period they also have a cousin by the same name who married Barbara all between 1790 and 1820. I have a several births of children born to Johannes Jacob Ackermann and Barbara and I have no clue which ones they are. The priest did not record the surname of the mother on 6 children born about 1803. The three Barbaras in question are Barbara Schaefer, Barbara Munz and Barbara Schreckenberger. The Johannes Jacob married to Barbara Munz, her name was also listed as Anna Barbara Munz. Good luck to everyone on their research! BTW, Is anyone aware of Altdorf, near Landau, Pfalz, if there are Catholic Church records that exist for this village or were they part of another parish? I am looking for Johannes Adam, son of Johannes Adam and Clara Pflug. He was born in February 1823 according to the civil records for this village. His name in the record was recorded as Jean Adam. Interestingly, when this gentleman, my 4x greatgrandfather was buried in 1903 in Reynolds, Traill, ND, he was buried as Johannes Adam. His wife was buried as Johanna Schotthöfer Adam. Sarah Adams -----Original Message----- From: Joseph Kaemerer <towjoe42@wwdb.org> To: PFALZ-L@rootsweb.com <PFALZ-L@rootsweb.com> Date: Sunday, July 30, 2000 11:42 AM Subject: Re: [PFALZ] which to choose??? >My Great Grandfather was Johann Anton Kaemmerer. After his entry into >the US at his enlistment as a volunteer in the Mo Light Artillery, His >name was recorded on the enlistment papers as Anton John Kaemmerer. >Thats all I know, do not know why it was done that way. All subsequent >recordings of any official nature, listed him as John Anton or Just >John Kaemmerer. Two or three US Census's list him as John. His >marriage lists him as John Anton. Joe > > >==== PFALZ Mailing List ==== >Going on vacation longer than 4 days? >send your message to Pfalz-L-request@rootsweb.com (click and ready to go) >mailto:Pfalz-L-request@rootsweb.com?subject=unsubscribe >

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I believe Johannes was Latin for Johan.

Don't forget the French; Napoleon, et al: while they occupied the Pfalz, you may find John, written as; Jean, Jois, Joes (with an accent mark) or Johannes/Joannes, with an is, rather than es. Ray __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/

As one also known all my life by my middle name, I can relate! In one's own little cultural cocoon, everyone knows that you are called Anton in everyday life, although your "legal" name is Johann Anton, . When you are required to enter your birth-certificate name on official records (especially the military, but also in schools) the roster is going to read "Kammerer, Johann A." -- and Johann is what you will be called. He probably just switched the order so he wouldn't fail to respond when they called his name. I can remember the amusement in the first two or three sessions of nearly every school and college class when the instructor called on "Ethel", and I sat like a stone until the impatient, second request -- "Ethel Wilmoth!" Teachers kindly made notes, and soon remembered to call me Virginia -- military superiors are often not so accomodating. In my case, I was named for my dad's beloved little sister, Ethel, who died when she was 8. My mother, Clara, had chosen Virginia from a novel she had read. Her sisters, used to German and Norwegian names with harder consonants, hated Ethel, which sounded to them like lisping, and made such fun of the name, my parents switched when I was an infant. To be honest, I never cared much for either name, but that's how it goes. Regards, Virginia. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joseph Kaemerer" <towjoe42@wwdb.org> To: <PFALZ-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2000 9:32 AM Subject: Re: [PFALZ] which to choose??? > My Great Grandfather was Johann Anton Kaemmerer. After his entry into > the US at his enlistment as a volunteer in the Mo Light Artillery, His > name was recorded on the enlistment papers as Anton John Kaemmerer. > Thats all I know, do not know why it was done that way. All subsequent > recordings of any official nature, listed him as John Anton or Just > John Kaemmerer. Two or three US Census's list him as John. His > marriage lists him as John Anton. Joe > > > ==== PFALZ Mailing List ==== > Going on vacation longer than 4 days? > send your message to Pfalz-L-request@rootsweb.com (click and ready to go) > mailto:Pfalz-L-request@rootsweb.com?subject=unsubscribe > > --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.166 / Virus Database: 79 - Release Date: 6/20/00

Another listmember sent the main URL for this site, but I had some difficulty accessing it. I was able to get to the page listed below, which has answers to most of the questions asked about these German naming patterns -- including "just Johann" Re my original post: I did receive one private criticism telling me I was wrong about Johannes being a diminutive of Johann -- that both are names in theri own right. Since I am six generations from my own German roots, and far from an expert on German names, I thought I should also mention this comment. Regards, Virginia http://www.kerchner.com/germname.htm --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.166 / Virus Database: 79 - Release Date: 6/20/00

My Great Grandfather was Johann Anton Kaemmerer. After his entry into the US at his enlistment as a volunteer in the Mo Light Artillery, His name was recorded on the enlistment papers as Anton John Kaemmerer. Thats all I know, do not know why it was done that way. All subsequent recordings of any official nature, listed him as John Anton or Just John Kaemmerer. Two or three US Census's list him as John. His marriage lists him as John Anton. Joe

Per; http://www.wf.net/~jyates/names.htm John's Genealogy Junction....What's in a name? Each child was given a 1st & middle name, but was called by the middle name. The 1st name of each daughter was USUALLY the 1st name of the mother & the 1st name of each son was USUALLY the name of his father. Middle names were SOMETIME derived from the child's godparents. The name may have been from a family member, parent or friend of the family. I have found, a lot of the time, that the oldest male was named for the paternal grandfather, 2nd male was named for the maternal grandfather; ditto for the females. If a child died, the next born, was, SOMETIMES, given the same name as the deceased. The abosulte laws of physics do not apply to genealogy! Ray __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/

Hi, also if one son by the name of Johann died in the early years another boy would get the name. Fritz H. Friederich -----Original Message----- From: TBaldy@aol.com <TBaldy@aol.com> To: PFALZ-L@rootsweb.com <PFALZ-L@rootsweb.com> Date: Sunday, July 30, 2000 8:26 AM Subject: Re: [PFALZ] which to choose??? >If you guys think that's strange.... I've got the same problem in generation >after generation of Germans. One family had Johann Joseph, Johann Jacob, >Johann Michael, Johann Adam, Johann Nicholas, Johann Peter, etc.... and >only the first born son used the name Johann... the others wen by the middle >name. > >For Girls, I had Anna Maria, Anna Catherine, Anna Regina, Anna Elisabeth, >Anna Christina, and so on... again the first born daughter went by Anna, the >rest by the middle name. One case, the Family ran out of ideas (my thought) >and named one daughter Anna Marie and one Anna Maria and a third Anna >Margaretha. One was Anna, one Maria and one Margaretha. > >In really, really big families, I did notice that this trend seems to >"break". After a whole series of Johann's, there would be the last two sons >who did not carry the symbolic first name. One such family with ten boys >named the last two simply Christian and Arnold (according to the church >records). . > >It seems (in my family anyway) that this practiced stopped when they came to >America. The first genrations born here in the middle 1800's had similar >names, but now were mixing things up and using variations: Nicholas Michael, >Michael Nicholas, John Michael, Andrew Nicholas, Jacob Andrew, Peter >Michael, Julius Andrew, Adolph Michael, and so on. All ther first names being >different, but the middle names being one of the others first names. > >Tim > > >==== PFALZ Mailing List ==== >Going on vacation longer than 4 days? >send your message to Pfalz-L-request@rootsweb.com (click and ready to go) >mailto:Pfalz-L-request@rootsweb.com?subject=unsubscribe > >

Karen Deeds-Jarvie wrote: > > I have a question that only another frustrated genealogist can answer. If you were searching for the wife of a man named Johannes, and two possibilities in the death index occurred, which would you choose, the one listed as the wife of JOHANNES, or the wife of JOHAN? Would there be an old world distinction? Both women I have found could be my 6-ggrandfather's wife. They are both named Maria Catharina, and both died within two years of each other, and both were only 8 years apart in age. I tend to lean toward the Johannes, because it is definite. So many of the people we research in the Pfalz have the name Johann before the name they go by. All of my 5-ggrandfather's sons were named Johann-something, even the one named Johannes. > In my experience with German names there often was a first name, usually Johann or Peter or Anna or Maria, with a second name by which the person was known. EXCEPT when the person's name was Johannes, then the first Johann was not used. This is true for Lutheran and Reformed. So I would go with the Johannes. Actually in a similar case I would add a second marriage for Johannes. In the first I would have the sentence read, "Johannes probably married Maria Catherina Surname1, yyyy -yyyy." The sentence for the second marriage would read "It is possible that Johannes married Maria Catherine Surname2, yyyy - yyyy". Are the two marriage records missing or perhaps not in the town or church where the children were baptized and the women died? Karen are you saying that your 5ggf's sons were names Johan Peter, Johan Michael, Johan Nicolas and Johan Johannes etc.? Did these names come from a film of the church records or from secondary sources? bob gillis

If you guys think that's strange.... I've got the same problem in generation after generation of Germans. One family had Johann Joseph, Johann Jacob, Johann Michael, Johann Adam, Johann Nicholas, Johann Peter, etc.... and only the first born son used the name Johann... the others wen by the middle name. For Girls, I had Anna Maria, Anna Catherine, Anna Regina, Anna Elisabeth, Anna Christina, and so on... again the first born daughter went by Anna, the rest by the middle name. One case, the Family ran out of ideas (my thought) and named one daughter Anna Marie and one Anna Maria and a third Anna Margaretha. One was Anna, one Maria and one Margaretha. In really, really big families, I did notice that this trend seems to "break". After a whole series of Johann's, there would be the last two sons who did not carry the symbolic first name. One such family with ten boys named the last two simply Christian and Arnold (according to the church records). . It seems (in my family anyway) that this practiced stopped when they came to America. The first genrations born here in the middle 1800's had similar names, but now were mixing things up and using variations: Nicholas Michael, Michael Nicholas, John Michael, Andrew Nicholas, Jacob Andrew, Peter Michael, Julius Andrew, Adolph Michael, and so on. All ther first names being different, but the middle names being one of the others first names. Tim

I cannot answer your question, but the topic raises a question for me. Although it appears typical that most of the men routinely used their middle name when preceded by Johann, the only name we have found for my ancestor is Johann. We have yet to discover his middle name. Is there a precedent about which any of you know as to why this person may have used Johann instead of his middle name? Help is appreciated! Betty -----Original Message----- From: Virginia Beck [mailto:ginia2@san.rr.com] Sent: Saturday, July 29, 2000 8:30 PM To: PFALZ-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [PFALZ] which to choose??? I believe that Johann would be the father (if they are father and son), and that Johannes is a diminutive, similar to John and Johnnie. I was also told that in the early German naming pattern, the first name was given to honor a saint or a revered or respected person, and that the second name was the one actually used. My husband's ancestor was Johann Antony Beck, anglicized to John Anthony, and always called Anthony. If I am wrong about any of this, I hope more knowledgeable list members will provide the correct, and/or more complete answer. Regards, Virginia. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Karen Deeds-Jarvie" <deeds@bghost.net> To: <PFALZ-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, July 29, 2000 3:03 PM Subject: [PFALZ] which to choose??? > I have a question that only another frustrated genealogist can answer. If you were searching for the wife of a man named Johannes, and two possibilities in the death index occurred, which would you choose, the one listed as the wife of JOHANNES, or the wife of JOHAN? Would there be an old world distinction? Both women I have found could be my 6-ggrandfather's wife. They are both named Maria Catharina, and both died within two years of each other, and both were only 8 years apart in age. I tend to lean toward the Johannes, because it is definite. So many of the people we research in the Pfalz have the name Johann before the name they go by. All of my 5-ggrandfather's sons were named Johann-something, even the one named Johannes. > > Any thoughts on this from anyone???? > > Thanks, > Karen Deeds-Jarvie :-) > B.G., Ohio > > > ==== PFALZ Mailing List ==== > Going on vacation longer than 4 days? > send your message to Pfalz-L-request@rootsweb.com (click and ready to go) > mailto:Pfalz-L-request@rootsweb.com?subject=unsubscribe > > --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.166 / Virus Database: 79 - Release Date: 6/20/00 ==== PFALZ Mailing List ==== Going on vacation longer than 4 days? send your message to Pfalz-L-request@rootsweb.com (click and ready to go) mailto:Pfalz-L-request@rootsweb.com?subject=unsubscribe

Again, as told to me, the early Lutheran Germans did not abandon their Saints when they first quit being Catholics. Virginia ----- Original Message ----- From: <Fathchuck@aol.com> To: <PFALZ-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, July 29, 2000 5:58 PM Subject: Re: [PFALZ] which to choose??? > In a message dated 7/29/00 8:15:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > ginia2@san.rr.com writes: > > << I was also told that > in the early German naming pattern, the first name was given to honor a > saint or a revered or respected person, and that the second name was the one > actually used. >> > > > That would explain wby my ggreatgrandmother and her sisters were Maria > Dorothea, Maria Sarah, and Maria Valentine! I amways wondered. Had they been > Catholic it would have made sense, but they were Lutheran. > > Thanks! > > > Chuck Schwartz > > > ==== PFALZ Mailing List ==== > Going on vacation longer than 4 days? > send your message to Pfalz-L-request@rootsweb.com (click and ready to go) > mailto:Pfalz-L-request@rootsweb.com?subject=unsubscribe > > --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.166 / Virus Database: 79 - Release Date: 6/20/00

I believe that Johann would be the father (if they are father and son), and that Johannes is a diminutive, similar to John and Johnnie. I was also told that in the early German naming pattern, the first name was given to honor a saint or a revered or respected person, and that the second name was the one actually used. My husband's ancestor was Johann Antony Beck, anglicized to John Anthony, and always called Anthony. If I am wrong about any of this, I hope more knowledgeable list members will provide the correct, and/or more complete answer. Regards, Virginia. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Karen Deeds-Jarvie" <deeds@bghost.net> To: <PFALZ-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, July 29, 2000 3:03 PM Subject: [PFALZ] which to choose??? > I have a question that only another frustrated genealogist can answer. If you were searching for the wife of a man named Johannes, and two possibilities in the death index occurred, which would you choose, the one listed as the wife of JOHANNES, or the wife of JOHAN? Would there be an old world distinction? Both women I have found could be my 6-ggrandfather's wife. They are both named Maria Catharina, and both died within two years of each other, and both were only 8 years apart in age. I tend to lean toward the Johannes, because it is definite. So many of the people we research in the Pfalz have the name Johann before the name they go by. All of my 5-ggrandfather's sons were named Johann-something, even the one named Johannes. > > Any thoughts on this from anyone???? > > Thanks, > Karen Deeds-Jarvie :-) > B.G., Ohio > > > ==== PFALZ Mailing List ==== > Going on vacation longer than 4 days? > send your message to Pfalz-L-request@rootsweb.com (click and ready to go) > mailto:Pfalz-L-request@rootsweb.com?subject=unsubscribe > > --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.166 / Virus Database: 79 - Release Date: 6/20/00

I have a question that only another frustrated genealogist can answer. If you were searching for the wife of a man named Johannes, and two possibilities in the death index occurred, which would you choose, the one listed as the wife of JOHANNES, or the wife of JOHAN? Would there be an old world distinction? Both women I have found could be my 6-ggrandfather's wife. They are both named Maria Catharina, and both died within two years of each other, and both were only 8 years apart in age. I tend to lean toward the Johannes, because it is definite. So many of the people we research in the Pfalz have the name Johann before the name they go by. All of my 5-ggrandfather's sons were named Johann-something, even the one named Johannes. Any thoughts on this from anyone???? Thanks, Karen Deeds-Jarvie :-) B.G., Ohio

Naming patterns by Charles Kerchner can be found at: http://www.kerchner.com/germname/htm

In a message dated 7/29/00 8:15:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ginia2@san.rr.com writes: << I was also told that in the early German naming pattern, the first name was given to honor a saint or a revered or respected person, and that the second name was the one actually used. >> That would explain wby my ggreatgrandmother and her sisters were Maria Dorothea, Maria Sarah, and Maria Valentine! I amways wondered. Had they been Catholic it would have made sense, but they were Lutheran. Thanks! Chuck Schwartz

Hello, I apologize: Birkenhördt is located about 10 km West of Bad Bergzabern. Regards Ernst Dierich. ----- Original Message ----- From: Ernst Dierich <edierich@t-online.de> To: <PFALZ-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, July 29, 2000 5:01 PM Subject: Re: [PFALZ] RE: Birkenhoerdt > Birkenhördt does exist and lays about 10 km East of Bad Bergzabern in the > Süd-Pfalz (Southern Palatinate). > The ZIP-code of Birkenhördt is 76889. > Regards > Ernst Dierich.