Thanks for the thoughts, Peter. I started researching this family in 1990 and trolled through the Dundee [and many other] censuses for 1841, 1851, 1861 reel by reel. It took hours and was truly headache inducing! If listers have only used Ancestry or other online censuses you have no idea - when the LDS produced the 1881 on disk it was wonderful [even with the limitations]. There are actually only 4 John Gibbs born in Perthshire within 5 years of 1784. In the census, John Gibb said he was born in Perth [city] & he was evidently still in the city in 1827 when his youngest son was baptized there. My new information is his death record which I just downloaded - no idea why I haven't done this before - and it says his father was James Gibb. Only the John Gib baptized in Perth had a father named James. I misspoke previously as there is a bap in Forteviot for John Gibb, s/o David and Mary Frazer in 1788. I had reservations because he was a little young to be the man in Dundee, though we all know that ages can be inaccurate, and because on the census John Gibb never said he was born in Forteviot. The full record of the 1808 marriage in Dundee is basic: it gives their names, the date, his occupation and states they were residents of the parish. Gibb's occupation [iron founder or moulder] is consistent on the censuses, his death record, his son's death record and also on his wife's death record. There are no wills for this family group. What I am really interested in is whether or not a lister has researched the Gibbs in the city of Perth or the Sim family. Liane