Tom, The only one I can find was born in Monzie, parents were William Drummond and Janet McUrrich. No mention of a wife though. His siblings were John, Isabel and William. Doreen --- On Tue, 21/12/10, TWMc <tomwdcraftr@juno.com> wrote: > From: TWMc <tomwdcraftr@juno.com> > Subject: [PERTHSHIRE] Hoping to find parentage of Alexander Drummond > To: perthshire@rootsweb.com > Date: Tuesday, 21 December, 2010, 16:52 > I'm hoping to find information that > would help me to find Alexander Drummond's parentage. From > the information I've been able to gather it seems he was > likely born about 1761 (give or take a few years?). It seems > his wife was likely Helen Dewar and born about the same > time. I believe thier Daughter Helen/Ellen Drummond was my > Great Grandmother who married Mathew Todd. > I currently don't have a subscription to ancestry.com I'm > wondering if someone could do a quick search of the Family > Tree's at ancestry.com (or other ancestry sites) to see if > there's a Family Tree that might show Alexander Drummond and > Helen Dewar, and perhaps show their parents names and > possibly other info? > If that's possible, it would be greatly appreciated, and > would help me in making more informed searches to acquire > more information. > Thanks so much!! > Tom McMillan (Washougal, WA) > ____________________________________________________________ > Obama Urges Homeowners to Refinance > If you owe under $729k you probably qualify for Obama's > Refi Program > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4d10db6e16b008bbc9est02vuc > When replying to a message or a digest, please delete > everything except the portion to which you are replying. > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PERTHSHIRE-request@rootsweb.com > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the > subject and the body of the message >

I'm hoping to find information that would help me to find Alexander Drummond's parentage. From the information I've been able to gather it seems he was likely born about 1761 (give or take a few years?). It seems his wife was likely Helen Dewar and born about the same time. I believe thier Daughter Helen/Ellen Drummond was my Great Grandmother who married Mathew Todd. I currently don't have a subscription to ancestry.com I'm wondering if someone could do a quick search of the Family Tree's at ancestry.com (or other ancestry sites) to see if there's a Family Tree that might show Alexander Drummond and Helen Dewar, and perhaps show their parents names and possibly other info? If that's possible, it would be greatly appreciated, and would help me in making more informed searches to acquire more information. Thanks so much!! Tom McMillan (Washougal, WA) ____________________________________________________________ Obama Urges Homeowners to Refinance If you owe under $729k you probably qualify for Obama's Refi Program http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4d10db6e16b008bbc9est02vuc

Maybe it is again time I listed my family in Perth. I have a great uncle who died February 4, 1926 living at 3 Burnbank Terrace Kinnoul.. He was married to Elizabeth Barbara Croll and had seven children. His parents were John Robertson and Barbara Bell. Alexander was born in Fowlis Wester in December 12, 1862. His father was a coachman as was Alexander and then he was a gardner. His mothers parents lived for many years at 5 Mill Street Perth and he was a brass founder. Probably at the foundry on Foundry Street Perth. Here are connected names to my family John Shewster-Shoemaker Married Isabella Beanstone or Benston John Robertson-Hostler, Spirit Dealer and Postillion- married Isabella Shewster John Robertson- coachman married Barbara Bell Parents of Barbara Bell are James Bell - Brass Founder-Married Janet Thomson James Bell's parents were John Bell -wright and Barbara Dennen or Denning The Alexander I am looking for was son of John Robertson and Barbara Bell. Alexander of all the children lived all his life in Perth others of the children scattered. He had one sister who was in Perth living with an aunt and cousin in 1881 census her name was Janet (Jessie) Robertson. Hope there is someone who may be part of these families. Kaye Robertson Haughee

This is Annie the McGregor researcher. Look for double names. Alexander might go by say John Alexander. Or Duncan Alexander. I have found many double names in the Rob Roy descendants....Annie ----- Original Message ----- From: "TWMc" <tomwdcraftr@juno.com> To: <perthshire@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, December 21, 2010 11:52 AM Subject: [PERTHSHIRE] Hoping to find parentage of Alexander Drummond > I'm hoping to find information that would help me to find Alexander > Drummond's parentage. From the information I've been able to gather it > seems he was likely born about 1761 (give or take a few years?). It seems > his wife was likely Helen Dewar and born about the same time. I believe > thier Daughter Helen/Ellen Drummond was my Great Grandmother who married > Mathew Todd. > I currently don't have a subscription to ancestry.com I'm wondering if > someone could do a quick search of the Family Tree's at ancestry.com (or > other ancestry sites) to see if there's a Family Tree that might show > Alexander Drummond and Helen Dewar, and perhaps show their parents names > and possibly other info? > If that's possible, it would be greatly appreciated, and would help me in > making more informed searches to acquire more information. > Thanks so much!! > Tom McMillan (Washougal, WA) > ____________________________________________________________ > Obama Urges Homeowners to Refinance > If you owe under $729k you probably qualify for Obama's Refi Program > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4d10db6e16b008bbc9est02vuc > When replying to a message or a digest, please delete everything except > the portion to which you are replying. > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > PERTHSHIRE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.872 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3325 - Release Date: 12/19/10 02:34:00

"Late" doesn't mean dead in Scottish documents. It means "former." For example, my great-grandfather, who was very much alive, is called "late schoolmaster, Duror" -- meaning he was formerly the schoolmaster there, but is now probably retired. Sheila

a.. The 1841 census shows an Alexander Drummond and Helen Drummond in Airth, Stirlingshire. b.. Someone has a family tree showing an Alexander Hamilton Drummond born in 1761 to John Drummond and Sarah Smith in Edinburgh. John and Sarah married in 1741 in Edinburgh.

Thanks you Shelia!!!! I did some searches for the possible Dewar connection, and I think you hit the nail on the head!!! I found that connection in a round a bout way. Since I'd found who would seem to be Helen (Drummond) Todd's Brother Alexander Drummond on the 1841 census near her, I searched for him on the 1851 census. I did download one which was wrong. Then the next one I hit paydirt!! First off Alexander Drummond was shown as a basket maker on the 1851 census. His Father showed as a basket maker on the 1841 census. For this census Alexander Drummond was I believe with a family by names of Alexander and Mary Dewar and thier Daughter. Would seem the Dewar's was likely an Uncle of his, since his Mother's maiden name would seem could be Dewar (although shown as Dyet and Dyer on some records). Alexander Dewar was a cotton weaver and his Daughter a carter. Alexander Drummond's wife and 2 children are with him, but are on the next page of the census which I opted to download to confirm he was the right one. OK, and then on the second page also was another Brother of Helen's and Alexander's. This is James Drummond and his family who are lodging with a Williamson family. James and one of his Sons are also basket makers. Haven't yet found a marriage record for an Alexander Drummond and a Helen Dewar (or Dyet or Dyer), nor a birth record for either. I did take a look at the Clan MacGregor or Gregor website, and found information on Clan chiefs. Seems in 1714 there was an Alexander Drummond (MacGregor) who had become clan chief. His Son William became Chief in 1743. William's Son Alexander who was born in 1758 succeeded his Father in 1865 (7 years old??). Apparently Alexander was ousted as Chief while serving with the military in the West Indies. This Alexander apparently took it to court as to who should be chief and lost in 1795. It appears there were a lot of Alexander Drummonds, but the timing would seem to almost fit the one I'm researching. It seems he didn't have his first child until 1796, and could account for a late marriage. Just thinking out loud. Thanks again for the tip for the name Dewar!! Tom McMillan (Washougal, WA) Could Dyer also be Dewar? Sheila When replying to a message or a digest, please delete everything except the portion to which you are replying. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PERTHSHIRE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ____________________________________________________________ Refinance Rates at 2.8% $160,000 Mortgage $434/mo. No Hidden Fees- 3.1% APR! Get a Free Quote http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4d0ed1d9165b57d28dcst03vuc

> Could Dyer also be Dewar? > Sheila No - Dyer is from the occupation, dyer of cloth.

It seems that this family did travel around areas of Scotland quite a lot if the information I've collected is correct. I found them in Lanark, Kirkudbright, Dumfires, West Lothian, and Midlothian. For birth records I've found about 9 that show with parents of Alexander Drummond and wife. The first names I've found for the wife are Helen and one with Ellender. Last names for Helen show up as Diet, Dyet, Dyett, Dyat, and Dyer. I've downloaded 4 actual written birth records, and those appear to be written differently as Dyet, Dyett, and Dyer. The name that's throwing me is "Dyer"? Does it make sense that they could be the same person? Not sure how the Scot would pronounce the different spellings of Dyet and Dyer, if they'd be pronounced similarly? The births I found were from 1796 to 1818. The death record I found for Helen (Dyer) Drummond showed she was 82 years old at death in 1845, meaning she may have been born about 1763. First child at 33, and last at 55. I guess that's not unusual? Then on my Helen's birth record Alexander is shown as a "basket maker". On Helen's death record he's shown as the Chapman pedler. On an 1841 census I found Alexander and Helen Drummond (both 80 years) with a Daughter Elizabeth (31 years), in Airth which is where I found the 1845 death for Helen. All are shown as "Licensed Halkers", and I assume that would be Hawker. Perhaps it makes sens that a basket maker would "hawk" his wares? Would appreciate thoughts about about the name and occupation. Thanks so much!! Tom McMillan (Washougal, WA) ____________________________________________________________ How to Stay Asleep Cambridge Researchers have developed an all natural sleep aid just for you. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4d0d15b5a69387c9d83st04vuc

Could Dyer also be Dewar? Sheila

Hi Tom A transcript of the 1851 census has Ellen TODD age 51 born in Airdrie, Lanarkshire. I think Airdrie is in the New Monkland Parish but I'm not sure how close to the boundary with Old Monkland. The 1801 Christening in Old Monkland for Helen DRUMMOND, father Alexander, mother Helen DIET does seem a strong possibility particularly as a birth and a christening are two different events and can take place in different locations. The OPR's relate to the Established Church of Scotland so if the family wasn't C of S or the baptism wasn't recorded then, apart from the Catholic Parish Registers which are in a different section, it wouldn't be on Scotlandspeople. Cape of Good Hope is South Africa. Andy ----- Original Message ----- From: "TWMc" <tomwdcraftr@juno.com> To: <perthshire@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2010 12:25 PM Subject: Re: [PERTHSHIRE] Ellen nee MacGregor and/or Drummond > Hi All > I purchased some credits at Scotland's People and did some searches and > downloaded some records. > I downloaded the 1851 census which appeared could be my family. I think it > could be, but some of the info would appear wrong. > Although the transcription was Mathan Todd, it does appear written as > Mathew Todd, and his age is close. I think what showed as Andrew, may have > been spelled Andrsn, which could be my Anderson Todd, and again the age is > very close. The ages of Mathew, John, Anderson, Ellen, and Ellen seem > close to my family's ages. > There is also a Robert Todd age 55, and a James Todd age 23 (both show as > married, but apparently no wives present). I believe my Mathew had a > brother Robert close to that age. The birth for Robert though on the > census shows as: "Cape of Good Hope". Would that be near Africa?? I have a > record that Mathew's brother Robert was born in Morpeth, Northumberland, > England. I guess it could be a different relation of Mathew's, or the > birth loc could simply be wrong? I can't really make out Mathew's > birthplace too well, on this census. It doesn't seem to be where I show he > was born which was Warkworth, Northumberland, England. > My Ellen shows as 51 years of age in 1851, which would seem consistent > with the other birth dates I've found for her. It appears it says her > birth was Lanark, but can't make it all out. I'd be glad to send the PDF > file for this, if someone could help me interpret it? > I also downloaded PDF files for 2 birth records for a Helen Drummond. One > was born in 1801 in Old Monkland, and one in 1804 in Edinburgh. Then, I > did find a Helen McGregor born in Killen, Perth in 1803 to a John and > Helen McGregor. There were several other Helen McGregor/MacGregor's I > haven't downloaded yet, in the 1798 to 1804 period. > I thought the one born to a John and Helen could make sense, since they > named their second Son John. However, I believe Mathew also had a Brother > named John, so??? > So far, I haven't found any indication of a marriage record for Mathew > Todd and a Helen McGregor/Drummond. Perhaps, I need to search in England > also, or perhaps they did a "common law" type marriage where there would > be no record?? > I could email the PDF files I downloaded, if someone could help me > interpret the locations. > Thanks so much!! > Tom McMillan (Washougal, WA)

When chapman billies leave the street, And drouthy neibors, neibors, meet; As market days are wearing late, And folk begin to tak the gate, While we sit bousing at the nappy, An' getting fou and unco happy, We think na on the lang Scots miles, The mosses, waters, slaps and stiles, That lie between us and our hame, Where sits our sulky, sullen dame, Gathering her brows like gathering storm, Nursing her wrath to keep it warm A *chapman* (plural /chapmen/) was an itinerant dealer or hawker in early modern Britain. Old English /céapmann/ was the regular term for "dealer, seller", cognate to the synonymous Dutch /koopman./ Old English /céap/ meant "deal, barter, business". The modern adjective /cheap/ is a comparatively recent development from the phrase /a good cheap/, literally "a good deal". The word also appears in names such as Cheapside, Eastcheap and Chepstow; all markets or dealing places. By 1600, the word /chapman/ had come to be applied to an itinerant dealer in particular, but it remained in use for "customer, buyer" as well as "merchant" in the 17th and 18th centuries, The habit of calling a young man a /chap/ arose from the use of the abbreviated word to mean a customer, one with whom to bargain. The word was applied to hawkers of chapbooks, broadside ballads, and similar items. Their stock in trade provides a graphic insight into the methods of political and religious campaigners of the Civil War period, for example. Chapman is also a common personal name of the class derived from trades Peter On 12/18/2010 3:00 AM, perthshire-request@rootsweb.com wrote: > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Ellen nee MacGregor and/or Drummond (TWMc) > 2. Re: Ellen nee MacGregor and/or Drummond (Margaret Woodford) > 3. Re: Ellen nee MacGregor and/or Drummond (CaledonC@aol.com) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2010 06:17:16 GMT > From: "TWMc"<tomwdcraftr@juno.com> > Subject: Re: [PERTHSHIRE] Ellen nee MacGregor and/or Drummond > To: perthshire@rootsweb.com > Message-ID:<20101217.221716.14138.1@webmail08.vgs.untd.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > > I've done some more searches for Alexander and Helen. I think now the name may have been Helen Dyer, which makes more sense to me. I found birth records and some marriage records for a number of children at familysearch.org, some showing Helen with a last name of Diet, Dyet and some with Dyer. > I did find a death record for a Helen (Dyer) Drummond for 1845 when she was 82. It showed her as spouse of late Alex Drummond. It indicated Alex was what appeared to say Chapman pedler. Anyone know what "Chapman" is?? > Seems his Son Alexander, and Son in Law Mathew Todd were stone ware merchants, so likely pedlers. > Thanks, Tom McMillan > > > > Thank you Andy!! > Seems the birth record of Helen born to Alexander and Helen does make sense. It appears that birth record shows "Airdrieh". > Now, what adds to that. I did download the 1841 census. Right above Matthew and Helen/Ellen and family is another family which would seem likely related. This person is an Alexander Drummond who is also a stone ware merchant, the same as Matthew. Alexander is 35, so would seem a younger Brother to my Helen/Ellen. > I think the Alexander and Helen Diet or Diel?, would be their parents. Wow, that is exciting news for me!! > Would appreciate hearing from anyone else as to their thoughts about that? > Thanks so much!! > Tom McMillan (Washougal, WA) > > Hi Tom > > A transcript of the 1851 census has Ellen TODD age 51 born in Airdrie, > Lanarkshire. I think Airdrie is in the New Monkland Parish but I'm not sure > how close to the boundary with Old Monkland. The 1801 Christening in Old > Monkland for Helen DRUMMOND, father Alexander, mother Helen DIET does seem a > strong possibility particularly as a birth and a christening are two > different events and can take place in different locations. > The OPR's relate to the Established Church of Scotland so if the family > wasn't C of S or the baptism wasn't recorded then, apart from the Catholic > Parish Registers which are in a different section, it wouldn't be on > Scotlandspeople. > > Cape of Good Hope is South Africa. > > Andy > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "TWMc"<tomwdcraftr@juno.com> > To:<perthshire@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2010 12:25 PM > Subject: Re: [PERTHSHIRE] Ellen nee MacGregor and/or Drummond > > >> Hi All >> I purchased some credits at Scotland's People and did some searches and >> downloaded some records. >> I downloaded the 1851 census which appeared could be my family. I think it >> could be, but some of the info would appear wrong. >> Although the transcription was Mathan Todd, it does appear written as >> Mathew Todd, and his age is close. I think what showed as Andrew, may have >> been spelled Andrsn, which could be my Anderson Todd, and again the age is >> very close. The ages of Mathew, John, Anderson, Ellen, and Ellen seem >> close to my family's ages. >> There is also a Robert Todd age 55, and a James Todd age 23 (both show as >> married, but apparently no wives present). I believe my Mathew had a >> brother Robert close to that age. The birth for Robert though on the >> census shows as: "Cape of Good Hope". Would that be near Africa?? I have a >> record that Mathew's brother Robert was born in Morpeth, Northumberland, >> England. I guess it could be a different relation of Mathew's, or the >> birth loc could simply be wrong? I can't really make out Mathew's >> birthplace too well, on this census. It doesn't seem to be where I show he >> was born which was Warkworth, Northumberland, England. >> My Ellen shows as 51 years of age in 1851, which would seem consistent >> with the other birth dates I've found for her. It appears it says her >> birth was Lanark, but can't make it all out. I'd be glad to send the PDF >> file for this, if someone could help me interpret it? >> I also downloaded PDF files for 2 birth records for a Helen Drummond. One >> was born in 1801 in Old Monkland, and one in 1804 in Edinburgh. Then, I >> did find a Helen McGregor born in Killen, Perth in 1803 to a John and >> Helen McGregor. There were several other Helen McGregor/MacGregor's I >> haven't downloaded yet, in the 1798 to 1804 period. >> I thought the one born to a John and Helen could make sense, since they >> named their second Son John. However, I believe Mathew also had a Brother >> named John, so??? >> So far, I haven't found any indication of a marriage record for Mathew >> Todd and a Helen McGregor/Drummond. Perhaps, I need to search in England >> also, or perhaps they did a "common law" type marriage where there would >> be no record?? >> I could email the PDF files I downloaded, if someone could help me >> interpret the locations. >> Thanks so much!! >> Tom McMillan (Washougal, WA) > When replying to a message or a digest, please delete everything except the portion to which you are replying. > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PERTHSHIRE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > ____________________________________________________________ > New Amex Shopping Tool > For Cardmembers Only. Try It Today& Let the Offers Come To You! > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4d0c5225582ed86455cst01vuc > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2010 07:00:01 -0000 > From: "Margaret Woodford"<margaret@laineee.co.uk> > Subject: Re: [PERTHSHIRE] Ellen nee MacGregor and/or Drummond > To:<perthshire@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID:<5BA5587633D646DC960BB072FC38AE9D@MargaretLaptop> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > Hi Tom, > > In the Dictionary of the Scots language Chapman is described thus - 1. A > petty or itinerant merchant or dealer. > > By the way are you aware that there is a free site for 1841 an 1851 UK > Census lookups - www.freecen.org.uk . Does not cover all areas but always > worth a try before spending money on Scotlands People. > Regards > Margaret > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Sat, 18 Dec 2010 02:53:03 EST > From: CaledonC@aol.com > Subject: Re: [PERTHSHIRE] Ellen nee MacGregor and/or Drummond > To: perthshire@rootsweb.com > Message-ID:<1413a.ea5e39d.3a3dc25f@aol.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > > Chapman were itinerant merchants , pedlars or packmen . Burn's in Tam > O'Shanter wrote in his opening line " When Chapmen billies leave the street " > .Prior to the Statute Labour Acts , roads were virtually tracks and the > packmen or chapmen would go round the clachans and villages selling their > wares . They would often have a chain of some 5 to 10 ponies in a line with > panniers strapped to their backs At night they would be tethered in a circle > to prevent escape . Perthshire has numerous pack bridges still in good > condition and built in nthe 17th century . There is a fine example in Alyth and > a number around Crieff ( particularly Barvick and Monzie ) . Narrow and > just wide enough to allow the ponies to cross in line . The examination of > the old trades in our research is an integral part of our studies . Social > history and family history are bed mates . > > Col in Crieff > > > ------------------------------ > > To contact the PERTHSHIRE list administrator, send an email to > PERTHSHIRE-admin@rootsweb.com. > > To post a message to the PERTHSHIRE mailing list, send an email to PERTHSHIRE@rootsweb.com. > > __________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PERTHSHIRE-request@rootsweb.com > with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the body of the > email with no additional text. > > > End of PERTHSHIRE Digest, Vol 5, Issue 152 > ******************************************

Hi Tom, In the Dictionary of the Scots language Chapman is described thus - 1. A petty or itinerant merchant or dealer. By the way are you aware that there is a free site for 1841 an 1851 UK Census lookups - www.freecen.org.uk . Does not cover all areas but always worth a try before spending money on Scotlands People. Regards Margaret

I've done some more searches for Alexander and Helen. I think now the name may have been Helen Dyer, which makes more sense to me. I found birth records and some marriage records for a number of children at familysearch.org, some showing Helen with a last name of Diet, Dyet and some with Dyer. I did find a death record for a Helen (Dyer) Drummond for 1845 when she was 82. It showed her as spouse of late Alex Drummond. It indicated Alex was what appeared to say Chapman pedler. Anyone know what "Chapman" is?? Seems his Son Alexander, and Son in Law Mathew Todd were stone ware merchants, so likely pedlers. Thanks, Tom McMillan Thank you Andy!! Seems the birth record of Helen born to Alexander and Helen does make sense. It appears that birth record shows "Airdrieh". Now, what adds to that. I did download the 1841 census. Right above Matthew and Helen/Ellen and family is another family which would seem likely related. This person is an Alexander Drummond who is also a stone ware merchant, the same as Matthew. Alexander is 35, so would seem a younger Brother to my Helen/Ellen. I think the Alexander and Helen Diet or Diel?, would be their parents. Wow, that is exciting news for me!! Would appreciate hearing from anyone else as to their thoughts about that? Thanks so much!! Tom McMillan (Washougal, WA) Hi Tom A transcript of the 1851 census has Ellen TODD age 51 born in Airdrie, Lanarkshire. I think Airdrie is in the New Monkland Parish but I'm not sure how close to the boundary with Old Monkland. The 1801 Christening in Old Monkland for Helen DRUMMOND, father Alexander, mother Helen DIET does seem a strong possibility particularly as a birth and a christening are two different events and can take place in different locations. The OPR's relate to the Established Church of Scotland so if the family wasn't C of S or the baptism wasn't recorded then, apart from the Catholic Parish Registers which are in a different section, it wouldn't be on Scotlandspeople. Cape of Good Hope is South Africa. Andy ----- Original Message ----- From: "TWMc" <tomwdcraftr@juno.com> To: <perthshire@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2010 12:25 PM Subject: Re: [PERTHSHIRE] Ellen nee MacGregor and/or Drummond > Hi All > I purchased some credits at Scotland's People and did some searches and > downloaded some records. > I downloaded the 1851 census which appeared could be my family. I think it > could be, but some of the info would appear wrong. > Although the transcription was Mathan Todd, it does appear written as > Mathew Todd, and his age is close. I think what showed as Andrew, may have > been spelled Andrsn, which could be my Anderson Todd, and again the age is > very close. The ages of Mathew, John, Anderson, Ellen, and Ellen seem > close to my family's ages. > There is also a Robert Todd age 55, and a James Todd age 23 (both show as > married, but apparently no wives present). I believe my Mathew had a > brother Robert close to that age. The birth for Robert though on the > census shows as: "Cape of Good Hope". Would that be near Africa?? I have a > record that Mathew's brother Robert was born in Morpeth, Northumberland, > England. I guess it could be a different relation of Mathew's, or the > birth loc could simply be wrong? I can't really make out Mathew's > birthplace too well, on this census. It doesn't seem to be where I show he > was born which was Warkworth, Northumberland, England. > My Ellen shows as 51 years of age in 1851, which would seem consistent > with the other birth dates I've found for her. It appears it says her > birth was Lanark, but can't make it all out. I'd be glad to send the PDF > file for this, if someone could help me interpret it? > I also downloaded PDF files for 2 birth records for a Helen Drummond. One > was born in 1801 in Old Monkland, and one in 1804 in Edinburgh. Then, I > did find a Helen McGregor born in Killen, Perth in 1803 to a John and > Helen McGregor. There were several other Helen McGregor/MacGregor's I > haven't downloaded yet, in the 1798 to 1804 period. > I thought the one born to a John and Helen could make sense, since they > named their second Son John. However, I believe Mathew also had a Brother > named John, so??? > So far, I haven't found any indication of a marriage record for Mathew > Todd and a Helen McGregor/Drummond. Perhaps, I need to search in England > also, or perhaps they did a "common law" type marriage where there would > be no record?? > I could email the PDF files I downloaded, if someone could help me > interpret the locations. > Thanks so much!! > Tom McMillan (Washougal, WA) When replying to a message or a digest, please delete everything except the portion to which you are replying. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PERTHSHIRE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ____________________________________________________________ New Amex Shopping Tool For Cardmembers Only. Try It Today & Let the Offers Come To You! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4d0c5225582ed86455cst01vuc

Chapman were itinerant merchants , pedlars or packmen . Burn's in Tam O'Shanter wrote in his opening line " When Chapmen billies leave the street " .Prior to the Statute Labour Acts , roads were virtually tracks and the packmen or chapmen would go round the clachans and villages selling their wares . They would often have a chain of some 5 to 10 ponies in a line with panniers strapped to their backs At night they would be tethered in a circle to prevent escape . Perthshire has numerous pack bridges still in good condition and built in nthe 17th century . There is a fine example in Alyth and a number around Crieff ( particularly Barvick and Monzie ) . Narrow and just wide enough to allow the ponies to cross in line . The examination of the old trades in our research is an integral part of our studies . Social history and family history are bed mates . Col in Crieff

Thank you Andy!! Seems the birth record of Helen born to Alexander and Helen does make sense. It appears that birth record shows "Airdrieh". Now, what adds to that. I did download the 1841 census. Right above Matthew and Helen/Ellen and family is another family which would seem likely related. This person is an Alexander Drummond who is also a stone ware merchant, the same as Matthew. Alexander is 35, so would seem a younger Brother to my Helen/Ellen. I think the Alexander and Helen Diet or Diel?, would be their parents. Wow, that is exciting news for me!! Would appreciate hearing from anyone else as to their thoughts about that? Thanks so much!! Tom McMillan (Washougal, WA) Hi Tom A transcript of the 1851 census has Ellen TODD age 51 born in Airdrie, Lanarkshire. I think Airdrie is in the New Monkland Parish but I'm not sure how close to the boundary with Old Monkland. The 1801 Christening in Old Monkland for Helen DRUMMOND, father Alexander, mother Helen DIET does seem a strong possibility particularly as a birth and a christening are two different events and can take place in different locations. The OPR's relate to the Established Church of Scotland so if the family wasn't C of S or the baptism wasn't recorded then, apart from the Catholic Parish Registers which are in a different section, it wouldn't be on Scotlandspeople. Cape of Good Hope is South Africa. Andy ----- Original Message ----- From: "TWMc" <tomwdcraftr@juno.com> To: <perthshire@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, December 18, 2010 12:25 PM Subject: Re: [PERTHSHIRE] Ellen nee MacGregor and/or Drummond > Hi All > I purchased some credits at Scotland's People and did some searches and > downloaded some records. > I downloaded the 1851 census which appeared could be my family. I think it > could be, but some of the info would appear wrong. > Although the transcription was Mathan Todd, it does appear written as > Mathew Todd, and his age is close. I think what showed as Andrew, may have > been spelled Andrsn, which could be my Anderson Todd, and again the age is > very close. The ages of Mathew, John, Anderson, Ellen, and Ellen seem > close to my family's ages. > There is also a Robert Todd age 55, and a James Todd age 23 (both show as > married, but apparently no wives present). I believe my Mathew had a > brother Robert close to that age. The birth for Robert though on the > census shows as: "Cape of Good Hope". Would that be near Africa?? I have a > record that Mathew's brother Robert was born in Morpeth, Northumberland, > England. I guess it could be a different relation of Mathew's, or the > birth loc could simply be wrong? I can't really make out Mathew's > birthplace too well, on this census. It doesn't seem to be where I show he > was born which was Warkworth, Northumberland, England. > My Ellen shows as 51 years of age in 1851, which would seem consistent > with the other birth dates I've found for her. It appears it says her > birth was Lanark, but can't make it all out. I'd be glad to send the PDF > file for this, if someone could help me interpret it? > I also downloaded PDF files for 2 birth records for a Helen Drummond. One > was born in 1801 in Old Monkland, and one in 1804 in Edinburgh. Then, I > did find a Helen McGregor born in Killen, Perth in 1803 to a John and > Helen McGregor. There were several other Helen McGregor/MacGregor's I > haven't downloaded yet, in the 1798 to 1804 period. > I thought the one born to a John and Helen could make sense, since they > named their second Son John. However, I believe Mathew also had a Brother > named John, so??? > So far, I haven't found any indication of a marriage record for Mathew > Todd and a Helen McGregor/Drummond. Perhaps, I need to search in England > also, or perhaps they did a "common law" type marriage where there would > be no record?? > I could email the PDF files I downloaded, if someone could help me > interpret the locations. > Thanks so much!! > Tom McMillan (Washougal, WA) When replying to a message or a digest, please delete everything except the portion to which you are replying. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PERTHSHIRE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ____________________________________________________________ How to Stay Asleep Cambridge Researchers have developed an all natural sleep aid just for you. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4d0c1c192e174834606st02vuc

Hi All I purchased some credits at Scotland's People and did some searches and downloaded some records. I downloaded the 1851 census which appeared could be my family. I think it could be, but some of the info would appear wrong. Although the transcription was Mathan Todd, it does appear written as Mathew Todd, and his age is close. I think what showed as Andrew, may have been spelled Andrsn, which could be my Anderson Todd, and again the age is very close. The ages of Mathew, John, Anderson, Ellen, and Ellen seem close to my family's ages. There is also a Robert Todd age 55, and a James Todd age 23 (both show as married, but apparently no wives present). I believe my Mathew had a brother Robert close to that age. The birth for Robert though on the census shows as: "Cape of Good Hope". Would that be near Africa?? I have a record that Mathew's brother Robert was born in Morpeth, Northumberland, England. I guess it could be a different relation of Mathew's, or the birth loc could simply be wrong? I can't really make out Mathew's birthplace too well, on this census. It doesn't seem to be where I show he was born which was Warkworth, Northumberland, England. My Ellen shows as 51 years of age in 1851, which would seem consistent with the other birth dates I've found for her. It appears it says her birth was Lanark, but can't make it all out. I'd be glad to send the PDF file for this, if someone could help me interpret it? I also downloaded PDF files for 2 birth records for a Helen Drummond. One was born in 1801 in Old Monkland, and one in 1804 in Edinburgh. Then, I did find a Helen McGregor born in Killen, Perth in 1803 to a John and Helen McGregor. There were several other Helen McGregor/MacGregor's I haven't downloaded yet, in the 1798 to 1804 period. I thought the one born to a John and Helen could make sense, since they named their second Son John. However, I believe Mathew also had a Brother named John, so??? So far, I haven't found any indication of a marriage record for Mathew Todd and a Helen McGregor/Drummond. Perhaps, I need to search in England also, or perhaps they did a "common law" type marriage where there would be no record?? I could email the PDF files I downloaded, if someone could help me interpret the locations. Thanks so much!! Tom McMillan (Washougal, WA) Hi Karen Thank you so much for that offer!! I thought I'd sent a message earlier today, but got interrupted by a computer problem. I'm so very impressed with the kindness and generosity of this group!! Thank you all so very much!! I know more than when I first joined this group, thanks to everone's help!! I have been to the Scotland's People website, and will look at it closer. I want to familiarize myself with the website a bit, and will then likely buy some credits to do some searches there. I am interested in looking at what may be the 1851 Scotland census that may be my Todd family, and will seek other records. Thanks so much!! Tom McMillan (Washougal, WA) I have some extra Scotland's People credits if you need a look up. Karen ________________________________ From: "perthshire-request@rootsweb.com" <perthshire-request@rootsweb.com> To: perthshire@rootsweb.com Sent: Fri, December 17, 2010 3:00:40 AM Subject: PERTHSHIRE Digest, Vol 5, Issue 149 Today's Topics: 1. Re: Ellen nee MacGregor and/or Drummond born in Scotlanda bout 1800 (tomwdcraftr@juno.com) 2. Re: Ellen nee MacGregor and/or Drummond born inScotlanda bout 1800 (S Tryk) 3. Fw: Ellen nee MacGregor and/or Drummond born Scotland about 1800 (CandROverson) 4. Re: Ellen nee MacGregor and/or Drummond born inScotlanda bout 1800 (Peter Booth (2)) 5. Re: Ellen nee MacGregor and/or Drummond born inScotlanda bout 1800 (CandROverson) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2010 19:57:44 GMT From: "tomwdcraftr@juno.com" <tomwdcraftr@juno.com> Subject: Re: [PERTHSHIRE] Ellen nee MacGregor and/or Drummond born in Scotlanda bout 1800 To: perthshire@rootsweb.com Message-ID: <20101216.115744.5565.0@webmail23.vgs.untd.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Thanks Peter for your messages!! The oldest Daughter Janet Todd married William Murray. I don't know where I got the info or if it's accurate, but I show they married Nov 8, 1845 in Glencairn, Dumfrieshire, Scotland. It seems they were on the 1851 Scotland census, and on the 1861 Ontario, Canada census. I show they had a Son in Scotland in 1852, and a Son in Ontario in 1855, which narrows the date they would have immigrated. The Daughter Ellen Todd married James Snaden/Snadden probably in Scotland. They had a Daughter in Scotland in March 1855 and a Daughter in Ontario in 1857. If they all immigrated at the same time, it would seem it may have been after March of 1855. I had found one 1851 Scotland census I thought might have been Matthew and Ellen and some of the children. However, the name showed as "Mathan" for Matthew and he showed as 50, an Ellen showed as 51, a Daughter Ellen showed as 21, and a John at 14. They were listed with a larger group of people and there were other Todd names. It showed them as lodgers traveling Marsh? Not sure what that means? They were in Biggar, Lanarkshire on South Frunt Street. I think I'd seen another 1851 Scotland census for I think an Annie Todd about my Anderson's age who was a different name than the family she was with an showed as a "servant", but don't know if it could have been her?? The birth info for the one showed as Mathan I think would have been wrong for my Matthew, but hard to know who reported the information. On this the Ellen Todd showed born in 1800 in Airdrie, Lanarkshire. Hard to know if this could be my Ellen MacGregor/Drummond?? Oh there is an 1851/52 Canada census, but my understanding is that some of those records were destroyed or are missing. I never found one for Matthew and Ellen and family. Thanks to all so much for your kind help!!! Tom McMillan (Washougal, WA) Tom, I tutor in genealogy as well as do some professional research. The answers will be at Scotland's People, but because it's a pay site, you'll have to cover the cost and do the work yourself. But it's quite easy and inexpensive at about $2 per lookup. IGI has christenings for Robert & John in Roxborough and Lanark. One is an extracted, the other a user submission. The various locations suggest the family didn't stay in the one place for long, so any records for the other children may well be scattered.. I can't see them in 1851 census of Scotland or England which suggests they migrated before that date. I don't know if there is census of Canada around 1850. Otherwise, you might have to look for shipping records. I'd also look for possible marriages of the eldest daughters Janet and Ellen before leaving Scotland. That might help fix a date for migration. It would be helpful to see if their first child was born in Scotland or Canada. Peter in Sydney When replying to a message or a digest, please delete everything except the portion to which you are replying. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PERTHSHIRE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ____________________________________________________________ Obama Urges Homeowners to Refinance If you owe under $729k you probably qualify for Obama's Refi Program http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4d0a6f7431bf6823c9dst01vuc ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2010 15:03:11 -0600 From: "S Tryk" <wombat@ecarthage.com> Subject: Re: [PERTHSHIRE] Ellen nee MacGregor and/or Drummond born inScotlanda bout 1800 To: <perthshire@rootsweb.com> Message-ID: <04FEE18F61A64B60B1CBF5DD460FC5C5@tryk92b94e6e5e> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Don't forget that Nellie and Nelly also work for Helen and Ellen. Sheila ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 00:31:33 -0000 From: "CandROverson" <overson12@btinternet.com> Subject: [PERTHSHIRE] Fw: Ellen nee MacGregor and/or Drummond born Scotland about 1800 To: <perthshire@rootsweb.com> Message-ID: <D404034B96834E08B95BA2C987956A2B@Chris> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Just copying my correspondence with Tom to the List (with his permission). May come in useful for someone some day. Oldest message at foot of page. Rhoda ----- Original Message ----- From: CandROverson To: tomwdcraftr@juno.com Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2010 11:16 AM Subject: Re: Ellen nee MacGregor and/or Drummond born Scotland about 1800 Hi Tom Sorry you can't view the image. But here is what it says for JOHN: " Matthew TODD Hawker from Alnwick in Northumberland and Helen DRUMMOND his Wife had a Son born at Leadhills upon the 4th and baptized upon the 5th day of November 1836 by the Revd. W Hope before Witnesses. Named John." It is interesting that the Baptism followed a day after the Birth. It suggests the family were passing through Leadhills when Helen gave birth. The other three Baptisms on the entry page all took place some months after the Birth and were children of parents living in Leadhills. When ROBERT was Baptised two years earlier in the parish of Melrose, Roxburghshire, the family appeared to be resident in what is now Galashiels in Selkirkshire. That baptism says: "Robert Lawful son of Matthew TODD China Merchant Darlingshaugh & Helen DRUMMOND was born 10 July 1854 and baptd 21 July 1834." Googling 'Darlingshaugh' shows that it was on the outskirts of Galashiels. 'Ellen' is a variation of the name 'Helen'. It is a less formal use of the name. I have many Helens in my tree who became known as 'Ellen'. A bit like 'James' and 'Jim' etc. It is entirely possible that Helen could have been born in Edinburgh, or perhaps in a small town/village nearby. The only Helen Drummond born in the vicinity of Edinburgh appearing on the Birth/Baptism index on Scotlands People between 1795 and 1810 was one baptised or born in Cramond (now in Edinburgh) on 17 August 1804 to Thomas DRUMMOND and Helen ANDERSON. The fact that your Great Grandmother was named 'Anderson' suggests a link to a family surname and it is possible that this Helen ANDERSON was her grandmother. But it could just be a coincidence. Rhoda in London, UK ----- Original Message ----- From: tomwdcraftr@juno.com To: overson12@btinternet.com Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2010 4:28 AM Subject: RE: Ellen nee MacGregor and/or Drummond born Scotland about 1800 Hi Rhoda Oh, thank you so very much!! Unfortunately, I can't seem to get my photo program to bring it in too clear. I can make some out, but not all. Would it be possible to transcribe what the record says for John's birth? The Family knew her as, and I think even on her grave in Canada it shows "Ellen"? But, in Scotland I wonder if it would have always been "Helen"? I've also seen it as Helen some in Canada. Some of the handed down family history felt she was born in Edinburgh, so I don't know if that's possible? I have collected some records from England for Matthew, and it seems his Father had been a potter, but may have also been a hawker for the pottery. It seems that Matthew's parents had about 7 or eight children born in several different areas in Northumberland. Your kindness is greatly appreciated!! Tom McMillan Hello Tom This is in response to your message on the Perthshire List. I am attaching the image of John Todd's baptism entry in the Crawford and Leadhills (Lanarkshire) 1836 Parish Register (downloaded from the Scotlands People website). This records Matthew Todd as a hawker from the parish of Alnwick in Northumberland. This suggests that he was what we would call nowadays, a commercial traveller. Unfortunately it doesn't record Helen's place of birth, but according to the 1841 Census she was born outside Perthshire. Rhoda ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 12:10:08 +1100 From: "Peter Booth \(2\)" <peterbooth2@bigpond.com> Subject: Re: [PERTHSHIRE] Ellen nee MacGregor and/or Drummond born inScotlanda bout 1800 To: <perthshire@rootsweb.com> Message-ID: <001001cb9d87$2573c140$0400a8c0@family> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Tom, You need to move away from using possibly and probably and put in confirmed facts and sources. And to do this you should go to Scotland's People which will cost a few dollars. I have no doubt that the Mathan Todd entry in 1851 census is your man and his family. I think Andrew will be Anderson. I'm not sure if Robert aged 55 should be aged 25. But you can only tell by looking at the original census image which is available only at Scotland's People. Having proved that, it means they didn't leave Scotland until after 1851 and narrows down the migration window. On Scotland's People you may also be able to find marriages of Janet and Ellen and exact birth dates of any children. Again, this helps narrow the migration timeframe. I'm assuming they all migrated together, so the migration then fits between the last child born in Scotland and the first BDM event in Canada. Good luck Peter ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 01:52:43 -0000 From: "CandROverson" <overson12@btinternet.com> Subject: Re: [PERTHSHIRE] Ellen nee MacGregor and/or Drummond born inScotlanda bout 1800 To: <perthshire@rootsweb.com> Message-ID: <B0D74823EEDA4C65A3EEF7F3F035BEDB@Chris> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Hi Tom The IGI shows 3 children born in Scotland for James SNADON or SNEDDON and Helen TODD. They were: Drummond SNADON (female) born Clackmannan, 14 November 1851 (extracted record) Robert SNADON born Clackmannan, 25 September 1853 (extracted record) Helen SNEDDON born Bathgate, West Lothian, 20 March 1855 (extracted record). The birth certificate for daughter Helen on Scotlands People, records that Helen Snadon/Sneddon m.s Todd was 24 in 1855 and was born in Ayrshire (sorry I can't decipher the town or village where she was born). I think that the 1841 Census recorded Helen as being born in Perthshire. It could be that the clerk who entered the details on the birth register heard "Perthshire" as "Ayrshire"; or the 1841 Census entry could have been wrong. According to the certificate, she and James married in the parish of Fossoway in Perth and Kinross in 1849. James SNADON/SNEDDON was born in Kennet, Clackmannanshire and was a Coal and Ironstone Miner. All 3 children (including Helen junior) were "living" when the birth was registered by James Snadon on 14 April 1855. Rhoda ----- Original Message ----- From: <tomwdcraftr@juno.com> To: <perthshire@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2010 7:57 PM Subject: Re: [PERTHSHIRE] Ellen nee MacGregor and/or Drummond born inScotlanda bout 1800 > Thanks Peter for your messages!! > The oldest Daughter Janet Todd married William Murray. I don't know where > I got the info or if it's accurate, but I show they married Nov 8, 1845 in > Glencairn, Dumfrieshire, Scotland. It seems they were on the 1851 Scotland > census, and on the 1861 Ontario, Canada census. I show they had a Son in > Scotland in 1852, and a Son in Ontario in 1855, which narrows the date > they would have immigrated. > The Daughter Ellen Todd married James Snaden/Snadden probably in Scotland. > They had a Daughter in Scotland in March 1855 and a Daughter in Ontario in > 1857. > ------------------------------ To contact the PERTHSHIRE list administrator, send an email to PERTHSHIRE-admin@rootsweb.com. To post a message to the PERTHSHIRE mailing list, send an email to PERTHSHIRE@rootsweb.com. __________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PERTHSHIRE-request@rootsweb.com with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the body of the email with no additional text. End of PERTHSHIRE Digest, Vol 5, Issue 149 ****************************************** When replying to a message or a digest, please delete everything except the portion to which you are replying. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PERTHSHIRE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ____________________________________________________________ How to Stay Asleep Cambridge Researchers have developed an all natural sleep aid just for you. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4d0be2e5b4c4f855b4est01vuc When replying to a message or a digest, please delete everything except the portion to which you are replying. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PERTHSHIRE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Karen Thank you so much for that offer!! I thought I'd sent a message earlier today, but got interrupted by a computer problem. I'm so very impressed with the kindness and generosity of this group!! Thank you all so very much!! I know more than when I first joined this group, thanks to everone's help!! I have been to the Scotland's People website, and will look at it closer. I want to familiarize myself with the website a bit, and will then likely buy some credits to do some searches there. I am interested in looking at what may be the 1851 Scotland census that may be my Todd family, and will seek other records. Thanks so much!! Tom McMillan (Washougal, WA) I have some extra Scotland's People credits if you need a look up. Karen ________________________________ From: "perthshire-request@rootsweb.com" <perthshire-request@rootsweb.com> To: perthshire@rootsweb.com Sent: Fri, December 17, 2010 3:00:40 AM Subject: PERTHSHIRE Digest, Vol 5, Issue 149 Today's Topics: 1. Re: Ellen nee MacGregor and/or Drummond born in Scotlanda bout 1800 (tomwdcraftr@juno.com) 2. Re: Ellen nee MacGregor and/or Drummond born inScotlanda bout 1800 (S Tryk) 3. Fw: Ellen nee MacGregor and/or Drummond born Scotland about 1800 (CandROverson) 4. Re: Ellen nee MacGregor and/or Drummond born inScotlanda bout 1800 (Peter Booth (2)) 5. Re: Ellen nee MacGregor and/or Drummond born inScotlanda bout 1800 (CandROverson) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2010 19:57:44 GMT From: "tomwdcraftr@juno.com" <tomwdcraftr@juno.com> Subject: Re: [PERTHSHIRE] Ellen nee MacGregor and/or Drummond born in Scotlanda bout 1800 To: perthshire@rootsweb.com Message-ID: <20101216.115744.5565.0@webmail23.vgs.untd.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Thanks Peter for your messages!! The oldest Daughter Janet Todd married William Murray. I don't know where I got the info or if it's accurate, but I show they married Nov 8, 1845 in Glencairn, Dumfrieshire, Scotland. It seems they were on the 1851 Scotland census, and on the 1861 Ontario, Canada census. I show they had a Son in Scotland in 1852, and a Son in Ontario in 1855, which narrows the date they would have immigrated. The Daughter Ellen Todd married James Snaden/Snadden probably in Scotland. They had a Daughter in Scotland in March 1855 and a Daughter in Ontario in 1857. If they all immigrated at the same time, it would seem it may have been after March of 1855. I had found one 1851 Scotland census I thought might have been Matthew and Ellen and some of the children. However, the name showed as "Mathan" for Matthew and he showed as 50, an Ellen showed as 51, a Daughter Ellen showed as 21, and a John at 14. They were listed with a larger group of people and there were other Todd names. It showed them as lodgers traveling Marsh? Not sure what that means? They were in Biggar, Lanarkshire on South Frunt Street. I think I'd seen another 1851 Scotland census for I think an Annie Todd about my Anderson's age who was a different name than the family she was with an showed as a "servant", but don't know if it could have been her?? The birth info for the one showed as Mathan I think would have been wrong for my Matthew, but hard to know who reported the information. On this the Ellen Todd showed born in 1800 in Airdrie, Lanarkshire. Hard to know if this could be my Ellen MacGregor/Drummond?? Oh there is an 1851/52 Canada census, but my understanding is that some of those records were destroyed or are missing. I never found one for Matthew and Ellen and family. Thanks to all so much for your kind help!!! Tom McMillan (Washougal, WA) Tom, I tutor in genealogy as well as do some professional research. The answers will be at Scotland's People, but because it's a pay site, you'll have to cover the cost and do the work yourself. But it's quite easy and inexpensive at about $2 per lookup. IGI has christenings for Robert & John in Roxborough and Lanark. One is an extracted, the other a user submission. The various locations suggest the family didn't stay in the one place for long, so any records for the other children may well be scattered.. I can't see them in 1851 census of Scotland or England which suggests they migrated before that date. I don't know if there is census of Canada around 1850. Otherwise, you might have to look for shipping records. I'd also look for possible marriages of the eldest daughters Janet and Ellen before leaving Scotland. That might help fix a date for migration. It would be helpful to see if their first child was born in Scotland or Canada. Peter in Sydney When replying to a message or a digest, please delete everything except the portion to which you are replying. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PERTHSHIRE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ____________________________________________________________ Obama Urges Homeowners to Refinance If you owe under $729k you probably qualify for Obama's Refi Program http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4d0a6f7431bf6823c9dst01vuc ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2010 15:03:11 -0600 From: "S Tryk" <wombat@ecarthage.com> Subject: Re: [PERTHSHIRE] Ellen nee MacGregor and/or Drummond born inScotlanda bout 1800 To: <perthshire@rootsweb.com> Message-ID: <04FEE18F61A64B60B1CBF5DD460FC5C5@tryk92b94e6e5e> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Don't forget that Nellie and Nelly also work for Helen and Ellen. Sheila ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 00:31:33 -0000 From: "CandROverson" <overson12@btinternet.com> Subject: [PERTHSHIRE] Fw: Ellen nee MacGregor and/or Drummond born Scotland about 1800 To: <perthshire@rootsweb.com> Message-ID: <D404034B96834E08B95BA2C987956A2B@Chris> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Just copying my correspondence with Tom to the List (with his permission). May come in useful for someone some day. Oldest message at foot of page. Rhoda ----- Original Message ----- From: CandROverson To: tomwdcraftr@juno.com Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2010 11:16 AM Subject: Re: Ellen nee MacGregor and/or Drummond born Scotland about 1800 Hi Tom Sorry you can't view the image. But here is what it says for JOHN: " Matthew TODD Hawker from Alnwick in Northumberland and Helen DRUMMOND his Wife had a Son born at Leadhills upon the 4th and baptized upon the 5th day of November 1836 by the Revd. W Hope before Witnesses. Named John." It is interesting that the Baptism followed a day after the Birth. It suggests the family were passing through Leadhills when Helen gave birth. The other three Baptisms on the entry page all took place some months after the Birth and were children of parents living in Leadhills. When ROBERT was Baptised two years earlier in the parish of Melrose, Roxburghshire, the family appeared to be resident in what is now Galashiels in Selkirkshire. That baptism says: "Robert Lawful son of Matthew TODD China Merchant Darlingshaugh & Helen DRUMMOND was born 10 July 1854 and baptd 21 July 1834." Googling 'Darlingshaugh' shows that it was on the outskirts of Galashiels. 'Ellen' is a variation of the name 'Helen'. It is a less formal use of the name. I have many Helens in my tree who became known as 'Ellen'. A bit like 'James' and 'Jim' etc. It is entirely possible that Helen could have been born in Edinburgh, or perhaps in a small town/village nearby. The only Helen Drummond born in the vicinity of Edinburgh appearing on the Birth/Baptism index on Scotlands People between 1795 and 1810 was one baptised or born in Cramond (now in Edinburgh) on 17 August 1804 to Thomas DRUMMOND and Helen ANDERSON. The fact that your Great Grandmother was named 'Anderson' suggests a link to a family surname and it is possible that this Helen ANDERSON was her grandmother. But it could just be a coincidence. Rhoda in London, UK ----- Original Message ----- From: tomwdcraftr@juno.com To: overson12@btinternet.com Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2010 4:28 AM Subject: RE: Ellen nee MacGregor and/or Drummond born Scotland about 1800 Hi Rhoda Oh, thank you so very much!! Unfortunately, I can't seem to get my photo program to bring it in too clear. I can make some out, but not all. Would it be possible to transcribe what the record says for John's birth? The Family knew her as, and I think even on her grave in Canada it shows "Ellen"? But, in Scotland I wonder if it would have always been "Helen"? I've also seen it as Helen some in Canada. Some of the handed down family history felt she was born in Edinburgh, so I don't know if that's possible? I have collected some records from England for Matthew, and it seems his Father had been a potter, but may have also been a hawker for the pottery. It seems that Matthew's parents had about 7 or eight children born in several different areas in Northumberland. Your kindness is greatly appreciated!! Tom McMillan Hello Tom This is in response to your message on the Perthshire List. I am attaching the image of John Todd's baptism entry in the Crawford and Leadhills (Lanarkshire) 1836 Parish Register (downloaded from the Scotlands People website). This records Matthew Todd as a hawker from the parish of Alnwick in Northumberland. This suggests that he was what we would call nowadays, a commercial traveller. Unfortunately it doesn't record Helen's place of birth, but according to the 1841 Census she was born outside Perthshire. Rhoda ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 12:10:08 +1100 From: "Peter Booth \(2\)" <peterbooth2@bigpond.com> Subject: Re: [PERTHSHIRE] Ellen nee MacGregor and/or Drummond born inScotlanda bout 1800 To: <perthshire@rootsweb.com> Message-ID: <001001cb9d87$2573c140$0400a8c0@family> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Tom, You need to move away from using possibly and probably and put in confirmed facts and sources. And to do this you should go to Scotland's People which will cost a few dollars. I have no doubt that the Mathan Todd entry in 1851 census is your man and his family. I think Andrew will be Anderson. I'm not sure if Robert aged 55 should be aged 25. But you can only tell by looking at the original census image which is available only at Scotland's People. Having proved that, it means they didn't leave Scotland until after 1851 and narrows down the migration window. On Scotland's People you may also be able to find marriages of Janet and Ellen and exact birth dates of any children. Again, this helps narrow the migration timeframe. I'm assuming they all migrated together, so the migration then fits between the last child born in Scotland and the first BDM event in Canada. Good luck Peter ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 01:52:43 -0000 From: "CandROverson" <overson12@btinternet.com> Subject: Re: [PERTHSHIRE] Ellen nee MacGregor and/or Drummond born inScotlanda bout 1800 To: <perthshire@rootsweb.com> Message-ID: <B0D74823EEDA4C65A3EEF7F3F035BEDB@Chris> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Hi Tom The IGI shows 3 children born in Scotland for James SNADON or SNEDDON and Helen TODD. They were: Drummond SNADON (female) born Clackmannan, 14 November 1851 (extracted record) Robert SNADON born Clackmannan, 25 September 1853 (extracted record) Helen SNEDDON born Bathgate, West Lothian, 20 March 1855 (extracted record). The birth certificate for daughter Helen on Scotlands People, records that Helen Snadon/Sneddon m.s Todd was 24 in 1855 and was born in Ayrshire (sorry I can't decipher the town or village where she was born). I think that the 1841 Census recorded Helen as being born in Perthshire. It could be that the clerk who entered the details on the birth register heard "Perthshire" as "Ayrshire"; or the 1841 Census entry could have been wrong. According to the certificate, she and James married in the parish of Fossoway in Perth and Kinross in 1849. James SNADON/SNEDDON was born in Kennet, Clackmannanshire and was a Coal and Ironstone Miner. All 3 children (including Helen junior) were "living" when the birth was registered by James Snadon on 14 April 1855. Rhoda ----- Original Message ----- From: <tomwdcraftr@juno.com> To: <perthshire@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2010 7:57 PM Subject: Re: [PERTHSHIRE] Ellen nee MacGregor and/or Drummond born inScotlanda bout 1800 > Thanks Peter for your messages!! > The oldest Daughter Janet Todd married William Murray. I don't know where > I got the info or if it's accurate, but I show they married Nov 8, 1845 in > Glencairn, Dumfrieshire, Scotland. It seems they were on the 1851 Scotland > census, and on the 1861 Ontario, Canada census. I show they had a Son in > Scotland in 1852, and a Son in Ontario in 1855, which narrows the date > they would have immigrated. > The Daughter Ellen Todd married James Snaden/Snadden probably in Scotland. > They had a Daughter in Scotland in March 1855 and a Daughter in Ontario in > 1857. > ------------------------------ To contact the PERTHSHIRE list administrator, send an email to PERTHSHIRE-admin@rootsweb.com. 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Tom, You need to move away from using possibly and probably and put in confirmed facts and sources. And to do this you should go to Scotland's People which will cost a few dollars. I have no doubt that the Mathan Todd entry in 1851 census is your man and his family. I think Andrew will be Anderson. I'm not sure if Robert aged 55 should be aged 25. But you can only tell by looking at the original census image which is available only at Scotland's People. Having proved that, it means they didn't leave Scotland until after 1851 and narrows down the migration window. On Scotland's People you may also be able to find marriages of Janet and Ellen and exact birth dates of any children. Again, this helps narrow the migration timeframe. I'm assuming they all migrated together, so the migration then fits between the last child born in Scotland and the first BDM event in Canada. Good luck Peter

I have some extra Scotland's People credits if you need a look up. Karen ________________________________ From: "perthshire-request@rootsweb.com" <perthshire-request@rootsweb.com> To: perthshire@rootsweb.com Sent: Fri, December 17, 2010 3:00:40 AM Subject: PERTHSHIRE Digest, Vol 5, Issue 149 Today's Topics: 1. Re: Ellen nee MacGregor and/or Drummond born in Scotlanda bout 1800 (tomwdcraftr@juno.com) 2. Re: Ellen nee MacGregor and/or Drummond born inScotlanda bout 1800 (S Tryk) 3. Fw: Ellen nee MacGregor and/or Drummond born Scotland about 1800 (CandROverson) 4. Re: Ellen nee MacGregor and/or Drummond born inScotlanda bout 1800 (Peter Booth (2)) 5. Re: Ellen nee MacGregor and/or Drummond born inScotlanda bout 1800 (CandROverson) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2010 19:57:44 GMT From: "tomwdcraftr@juno.com" <tomwdcraftr@juno.com> Subject: Re: [PERTHSHIRE] Ellen nee MacGregor and/or Drummond born in Scotlanda bout 1800 To: perthshire@rootsweb.com Message-ID: <20101216.115744.5565.0@webmail23.vgs.untd.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Thanks Peter for your messages!! The oldest Daughter Janet Todd married William Murray. I don't know where I got the info or if it's accurate, but I show they married Nov 8, 1845 in Glencairn, Dumfrieshire, Scotland. It seems they were on the 1851 Scotland census, and on the 1861 Ontario, Canada census. I show they had a Son in Scotland in 1852, and a Son in Ontario in 1855, which narrows the date they would have immigrated. The Daughter Ellen Todd married James Snaden/Snadden probably in Scotland. They had a Daughter in Scotland in March 1855 and a Daughter in Ontario in 1857. If they all immigrated at the same time, it would seem it may have been after March of 1855. I had found one 1851 Scotland census I thought might have been Matthew and Ellen and some of the children. However, the name showed as "Mathan" for Matthew and he showed as 50, an Ellen showed as 51, a Daughter Ellen showed as 21, and a John at 14. They were listed with a larger group of people and there were other Todd names. It showed them as lodgers traveling Marsh? Not sure what that means? They were in Biggar, Lanarkshire on South Frunt Street. I think I'd seen another 1851 Scotland census for I think an Annie Todd about my Anderson's age who was a different name than the family she was with an showed as a "servant", but don't know if it could have been her?? The birth info for the one showed as Mathan I think would have been wrong for my Matthew, but hard to know who reported the information. On this the Ellen Todd showed born in 1800 in Airdrie, Lanarkshire. Hard to know if this could be my Ellen MacGregor/Drummond?? Oh there is an 1851/52 Canada census, but my understanding is that some of those records were destroyed or are missing. I never found one for Matthew and Ellen and family. Thanks to all so much for your kind help!!! Tom McMillan (Washougal, WA) Tom, I tutor in genealogy as well as do some professional research. The answers will be at Scotland's People, but because it's a pay site, you'll have to cover the cost and do the work yourself. But it's quite easy and inexpensive at about $2 per lookup. IGI has christenings for Robert & John in Roxborough and Lanark. One is an extracted, the other a user submission. The various locations suggest the family didn't stay in the one place for long, so any records for the other children may well be scattered.. I can't see them in 1851 census of Scotland or England which suggests they migrated before that date. I don't know if there is census of Canada around 1850. Otherwise, you might have to look for shipping records. I'd also look for possible marriages of the eldest daughters Janet and Ellen before leaving Scotland. That might help fix a date for migration. It would be helpful to see if their first child was born in Scotland or Canada. Peter in Sydney When replying to a message or a digest, please delete everything except the portion to which you are replying. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PERTHSHIRE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ____________________________________________________________ Obama Urges Homeowners to Refinance If you owe under $729k you probably qualify for Obama's Refi Program http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4d0a6f7431bf6823c9dst01vuc ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2010 15:03:11 -0600 From: "S Tryk" <wombat@ecarthage.com> Subject: Re: [PERTHSHIRE] Ellen nee MacGregor and/or Drummond born inScotlanda bout 1800 To: <perthshire@rootsweb.com> Message-ID: <04FEE18F61A64B60B1CBF5DD460FC5C5@tryk92b94e6e5e> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Don't forget that Nellie and Nelly also work for Helen and Ellen. Sheila ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 00:31:33 -0000 From: "CandROverson" <overson12@btinternet.com> Subject: [PERTHSHIRE] Fw: Ellen nee MacGregor and/or Drummond born Scotland about 1800 To: <perthshire@rootsweb.com> Message-ID: <D404034B96834E08B95BA2C987956A2B@Chris> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Just copying my correspondence with Tom to the List (with his permission). May come in useful for someone some day. Oldest message at foot of page. Rhoda ----- Original Message ----- From: CandROverson To: tomwdcraftr@juno.com Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2010 11:16 AM Subject: Re: Ellen nee MacGregor and/or Drummond born Scotland about 1800 Hi Tom Sorry you can't view the image. But here is what it says for JOHN: " Matthew TODD Hawker from Alnwick in Northumberland and Helen DRUMMOND his Wife had a Son born at Leadhills upon the 4th and baptized upon the 5th day of November 1836 by the Revd. W Hope before Witnesses. Named John." It is interesting that the Baptism followed a day after the Birth. It suggests the family were passing through Leadhills when Helen gave birth. The other three Baptisms on the entry page all took place some months after the Birth and were children of parents living in Leadhills. When ROBERT was Baptised two years earlier in the parish of Melrose, Roxburghshire, the family appeared to be resident in what is now Galashiels in Selkirkshire. That baptism says: "Robert Lawful son of Matthew TODD China Merchant Darlingshaugh & Helen DRUMMOND was born 10 July 1854 and baptd 21 July 1834." Googling 'Darlingshaugh' shows that it was on the outskirts of Galashiels. 'Ellen' is a variation of the name 'Helen'. It is a less formal use of the name. I have many Helens in my tree who became known as 'Ellen'. A bit like 'James' and 'Jim' etc. It is entirely possible that Helen could have been born in Edinburgh, or perhaps in a small town/village nearby. The only Helen Drummond born in the vicinity of Edinburgh appearing on the Birth/Baptism index on Scotlands People between 1795 and 1810 was one baptised or born in Cramond (now in Edinburgh) on 17 August 1804 to Thomas DRUMMOND and Helen ANDERSON. The fact that your Great Grandmother was named 'Anderson' suggests a link to a family surname and it is possible that this Helen ANDERSON was her grandmother. But it could just be a coincidence. Rhoda in London, UK ----- Original Message ----- From: tomwdcraftr@juno.com To: overson12@btinternet.com Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2010 4:28 AM Subject: RE: Ellen nee MacGregor and/or Drummond born Scotland about 1800 Hi Rhoda Oh, thank you so very much!! Unfortunately, I can't seem to get my photo program to bring it in too clear. I can make some out, but not all. Would it be possible to transcribe what the record says for John's birth? The Family knew her as, and I think even on her grave in Canada it shows "Ellen"? But, in Scotland I wonder if it would have always been "Helen"? I've also seen it as Helen some in Canada. Some of the handed down family history felt she was born in Edinburgh, so I don't know if that's possible? I have collected some records from England for Matthew, and it seems his Father had been a potter, but may have also been a hawker for the pottery. It seems that Matthew's parents had about 7 or eight children born in several different areas in Northumberland. Your kindness is greatly appreciated!! Tom McMillan Hello Tom This is in response to your message on the Perthshire List. I am attaching the image of John Todd's baptism entry in the Crawford and Leadhills (Lanarkshire) 1836 Parish Register (downloaded from the Scotlands People website). This records Matthew Todd as a hawker from the parish of Alnwick in Northumberland. This suggests that he was what we would call nowadays, a commercial traveller. Unfortunately it doesn't record Helen's place of birth, but according to the 1841 Census she was born outside Perthshire. Rhoda ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 12:10:08 +1100 From: "Peter Booth \(2\)" <peterbooth2@bigpond.com> Subject: Re: [PERTHSHIRE] Ellen nee MacGregor and/or Drummond born inScotlanda bout 1800 To: <perthshire@rootsweb.com> Message-ID: <001001cb9d87$2573c140$0400a8c0@family> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Tom, You need to move away from using possibly and probably and put in confirmed facts and sources. And to do this you should go to Scotland's People which will cost a few dollars. I have no doubt that the Mathan Todd entry in 1851 census is your man and his family. I think Andrew will be Anderson. I'm not sure if Robert aged 55 should be aged 25. But you can only tell by looking at the original census image which is available only at Scotland's People. Having proved that, it means they didn't leave Scotland until after 1851 and narrows down the migration window. On Scotland's People you may also be able to find marriages of Janet and Ellen and exact birth dates of any children. Again, this helps narrow the migration timeframe. I'm assuming they all migrated together, so the migration then fits between the last child born in Scotland and the first BDM event in Canada. Good luck Peter ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Fri, 17 Dec 2010 01:52:43 -0000 From: "CandROverson" <overson12@btinternet.com> Subject: Re: [PERTHSHIRE] Ellen nee MacGregor and/or Drummond born inScotlanda bout 1800 To: <perthshire@rootsweb.com> Message-ID: <B0D74823EEDA4C65A3EEF7F3F035BEDB@Chris> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Hi Tom The IGI shows 3 children born in Scotland for James SNADON or SNEDDON and Helen TODD. They were: Drummond SNADON (female) born Clackmannan, 14 November 1851 (extracted record) Robert SNADON born Clackmannan, 25 September 1853 (extracted record) Helen SNEDDON born Bathgate, West Lothian, 20 March 1855 (extracted record). The birth certificate for daughter Helen on Scotlands People, records that Helen Snadon/Sneddon m.s Todd was 24 in 1855 and was born in Ayrshire (sorry I can't decipher the town or village where she was born). I think that the 1841 Census recorded Helen as being born in Perthshire. It could be that the clerk who entered the details on the birth register heard "Perthshire" as "Ayrshire"; or the 1841 Census entry could have been wrong. According to the certificate, she and James married in the parish of Fossoway in Perth and Kinross in 1849. James SNADON/SNEDDON was born in Kennet, Clackmannanshire and was a Coal and Ironstone Miner. All 3 children (including Helen junior) were "living" when the birth was registered by James Snadon on 14 April 1855. Rhoda ----- Original Message ----- From: <tomwdcraftr@juno.com> To: <perthshire@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, December 16, 2010 7:57 PM Subject: Re: [PERTHSHIRE] Ellen nee MacGregor and/or Drummond born inScotlanda bout 1800 > Thanks Peter for your messages!! > The oldest Daughter Janet Todd married William Murray. I don't know where > I got the info or if it's accurate, but I show they married Nov 8, 1845 in > Glencairn, Dumfrieshire, Scotland. It seems they were on the 1851 Scotland > census, and on the 1861 Ontario, Canada census. I show they had a Son in > Scotland in 1852, and a Son in Ontario in 1855, which narrows the date > they would have immigrated. > The Daughter Ellen Todd married James Snaden/Snadden probably in Scotland. > They had a Daughter in Scotland in March 1855 and a Daughter in Ontario in > 1857. > ------------------------------ To contact the PERTHSHIRE list administrator, send an email to PERTHSHIRE-admin@rootsweb.com. To post a message to the PERTHSHIRE mailing list, send an email to PERTHSHIRE@rootsweb.com. __________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PERTHSHIRE-request@rootsweb.com with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the body of the email with no additional text. End of PERTHSHIRE Digest, Vol 5, Issue 149 ******************************************