Ruth, Catherine McKay was never married. She had 2 children though. Yes her death certificate could be wrong......which I have felt quite often, as the informant only puts down what he or she knows, and that could be completely of the mark. Carol

Hello Carol, I noticed you said that on HER death certificate she mentioned her parents names, there is no way she could do that, I have found you never rely on death certificates, as it is someone else who gives the information, I had a death certificate for my Great Grandmother, and searched for her parents which were listed on the certificate, for years only to find it was her Aunt and Uncle, as the niece had given the info, have got Catherine's marriage certificate , that might be more accurate. Ruth Edwards

Carol, Have you tried Scotland's People? It's a pay site, but at $2 for the equivalent of a certificate, it's as cheap as you're ever going to get. If Catherine was born 1792, her parents were born around 1770. So they would be around age 70, or more than likely deceased by 1841 which is the earliest census. As Duncan was an auctioneer, I would also recommend looking on the Scotland's People site for Wills and inventories. Peter in Sydney

Good Morning from Australia. I have a great great great grandmother who was baptized on the 8 February 1792 in the Port of Monteith. She lived all her live in Callander, but on her death certificate she mentioned the parents names. I have never been able to find a marriage of her parents. Duncan Mackay and Catherine Macarthur. Duncan McKay was an auctioneer apparently. I have never found him in a census. Catherine McKay baptized in 1792 mentions on all her census she was born in Perthshire, but I was very lucky to notice on one she said Dunkell or what it looked like. I have found an entry on the IGI of a Catherine being baptized 8 February 1792 in Port of Monteith. She seems to be the only child with those parents there. Has anyone this family on their tree, or know of them at all? Or is there anyone that has the OPR to look up the original entry and let me know what it says. I can order the film thorough he LDS but that could take months to come now. I would be so grateful for any information. Carol

John Edward Scobie, born 1901 Scotland, died 1976 Australia. Many thanks to list members, Andy, Cathie, Heather, and Peter, for their input on the above. There may be a ROB MANNING, probably in Australia, who is also researching John Edward Scobie. If anyone should find any postings from him, I would be very pleased to make contact. Louis in Scotland.

Hi Ursula Having just studied Convict Australia at Uni and found my great great grandmother married a convict the second time around. Convicts had to get their own way back to Australia ie they had to save the money from the wages they may have received, if they received any. Most convicts didn't return to their native country. Once he got to Australia you need to know where he went. Did he go to Sydney (Port Jackson), Van Dieman's Land (Tasmania), Norfolk Island) or Western Australia. Most went to Sydney but those considered bad or political prisoners may have gone to places of secondary punishment ie Norfolk Island, Moreton Bay (Brisbane). Once you know where they were transported to you can find where they were assigned (why they worked for) or whether they were on the road gangs etc. The State Library of Qld has a convict database online they may help http://www.slq.qld.gov.au/info/fh/convicts Also the National Library of Australia has a database of early Australian papers' that have been digitised. It is a wonderful site and continuously updated. It is called Trove. http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper Hope this helps Cheers Marg in Brisbane -----Original Message----- From: perthshire-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:perthshire-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Ursula Sent: Saturday, 8 January 2011 1:43 AM To: Perthshire List Subject: [PERTHSHIRE] Transportation Dear Listers Although not strictly a Perthshire question, I'm hoping someone might be able to answer or point me in the right direction, as this group seems to be a fount of all sorts of knowledge! I have a family member who was transported to Australia in 1835 for 7 years (details from the Australian Convict papers on Ancestry). He completed his term in 1842 and received his pardon, but I have no idea what happened to him then. He had married in England in 1830 and had two children, but by the 1851 census his wife was declaring herself a widow. I can't find any death records for him in either the English parish records or the Australian records (or any other mention of him, in fact), so have no idea whether he ever actually returned to England, or whether being a widow was a polite fiction for a husband that never returned.... I assume that, having completed their service, convicts were free to return to England but how did they get back? Did the government provide a berth on a ship back, or were they just cut loose to find their own way? In which case, how did they afford the fare... Any pointers would be gratefully received! Ursula When replying to a message or a digest, please delete everything except the portion to which you are replying. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PERTHSHIRE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Louis, It sounds like Andy has found your man in Victoria, but there are some sites you might like to try to get extra information. His arrival should be somewhere on http://naa12.naa.gov.au/Login.htm Victorian BDM records can be accessed through http://www.coraweb.com.au/ see under available BDM Indexes for Australia. There is a cost of 99 cents per view and there are privacy limitations on available years. But you should see his marriage and death. The above site Coraweb is a great gateway to all Australian resources, but it's so big you need to find your way around. Ancestry.com has immigration records, electoral rolls and directories if you have a worldwide subscription. You might also try Ancestry for any Family Trees. The national newspaper archives is another resource that could have family notices and the like that may refer to him, but I think he cut off date is about 1952. Try http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/home and use the Advanced Search option And finally, just Google his name using quotation marks. You never know what might come up. Peter in Sydney

Hi Louis There is a death for a John Edward SCOBIE age 75 in Victoria, Australia in 1976 (not Western Australia), father Ludovic, mother Annie Simpson. If this sounds right you are welcome to contact me off list if you wish. Andy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Louis Scobie" <louis.scobie@virgin.net> To: <perthshire@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2011 2:14 AM Subject: [PERTHSHIRE] JOHN EDWARD SCOBIE to Australia 1920's/30's >I have been following the current discussion on transportation with >interest. > > This relative was not transported to Australia, but moved of his own free > will! I don't know my > > way around the Australian record system and am hoping someone on the list > may be able > > to help confirm some details and fill in some blanks, or suggest how I > might do so. > > JOHN EDWARD SCOBIE was born 18th Jan 1901, Keirfield Stables, Bridge of > Allan. (S.I.) > > As a young man, he drove a traction engine for Morgan of Crieff (timber > merchants), hauling > > timber from the forest. > > In the 1920's or 1930's, he left Scotland for Australia (date not known, > or what he did in Australia?). > > I am told that he married a DOROTHY BROWN?, but don't know where or when, > and that they > > had at least one child, a MARJORIE LOUISA SCOBIE (dates not known, others? > not known). > > I have JOHN's death as 8th Oct 1976, in Western Australia, but no record > of where this information > > came from. > > Any other information / help /confirmation of the above, would be > appreciated. > > Louis in Scotland. > When replying to a message or a digest, please delete everything except > the portion to which you are replying. > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > PERTHSHIRE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

I have been following the current discussion on transportation with interest. This relative was not transported to Australia, but moved of his own free will! I don't know my way around the Australian record system and am hoping someone on the list may be able to help confirm some details and fill in some blanks, or suggest how I might do so. JOHN EDWARD SCOBIE was born 18th Jan 1901, Keirfield Stables, Bridge of Allan. (S.I.) As a young man, he drove a traction engine for Morgan of Crieff (timber merchants), hauling timber from the forest. In the 1920's or 1930's, he left Scotland for Australia (date not known, or what he did in Australia?). I am told that he married a DOROTHY BROWN?, but don't know where or when, and that they had at least one child, a MARJORIE LOUISA SCOBIE (dates not known, others? not known). I have JOHN's death as 8th Oct 1976, in Western Australia, but no record of where this information came from. Any other information / help /confirmation of the above, would be appreciated. Louis in Scotland.

Ursula, Give us a name, ship, arrival date etc and we can have a look. It's my understanding that unless they got an Unconditional Pardon, they could not return. Tickets of Leave, Certificates of Freedom and Conditional Pardons all has conditions attached. While it's a bit early for the goldrush, it's also possible he moved interstate. Have you checked death records for all states? Peter in Sydney

Hi Sheila I haven't come across this piece of research but I would love to find out more about it. In my case my ancestor applied to have his wife and family join him about five years after he arrived, but the process wasn't completed for some reason. His application wasn't rejected but just stopped. I have assumed that his wife didn't want to travel to the other side of the world but there may have been other reasons. I can't imagine that she was too pleased with him for taking to crime and leaving her to look after 8 daughters, the youngest of whom was 1. He was a middle-aged man and this was his first arrest, and he obviously wasn't very good at this forgery business (I have seen a copy of the bill of exchange which was presented as evidence at his trial). Rhoda ----- Original Message ----- From: "S Tryk" <wombat@ecarthage.com> To: <perthshire@rootsweb.com>; <ursularclarke@yahoo.com> Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2011 12:26 AM Subject: Re: [PERTHSHIRE] the wives they left behind > Rhoda, > I seem to recall that a researcher in Melbourne was collecting all > those sad letters to the police and to newspapers asking for information > on the whereabouts of various men who had left wives and families behind > in England, Scotland and Ireland. They made heartbreaking -- and > informative -- reading. Do you know if these are available online now? > Sheila

Hello Ursula My GGG Grandfather, born in Perthshire, was transported for life to Van Diemen's Land (Tasmania) in 1836 for "forging and uttering a bill of exchange". His wife and 8 daughters were left to make the best of it, and as far as I know he never returned. My GGG Grandmother called herself a 'widow' in the 1851 Scottish census but I know he was still alive at that time (from his appearance on passenger lists of ships travelling between Launceston in Tasmania and Melbourne). My GGG Grandfather as a 'Lifer' was not allowed to return to the UK. He spent his first years being allocated to work for free settlers and after about 7 years got his 'Ticket of Leave' which was a bit like being on probation i.e he was allowed to travel around and find his own employment but had to report back to the authorities at specified intervals. He received a Conditional Pardon in 1849 which meant he was a free man within the territory of Australia but was not allowed to return to the UK. The British government did nothing to help convicts return to the UK. Most convicts stayed on in Australia. Some applied to have their wives and families join them. Some married other convicts and stayed on, regardless of whether they had wives back in the UK or not. Those who did return probably worked their passage on England-bound ships. I belong to the Rootsweb Australian Convicts and Tasmanian Convicts Lists. They are a mine of information and you might like to join them. They can be found at: aus-tas-convicts@rootsweb.com aus-convicts@rootsweb.com Rhoda ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ursula" <ursularclarke@yahoo.com> To: "Perthshire List" <perthshire-l@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, January 07, 2011 3:43 PM Subject: [PERTHSHIRE] Transportation > Dear Listers > > Although not strictly a Perthshire question, I'm hoping someone might be > able to answer or point me in the right direction, as this group seems to > be a fount of all sorts of knowledge! > > I have a family member who was transported to Australia in 1835 for 7 > years (details from the Australian Convict papers on Ancestry). He > completed his term in 1842 and received his pardon, but I have no idea > what happened to him then. He had married in England in 1830 and had > two children, but by the 1851 census his wife was declaring herself a > widow. I can't find any death records for him in either the English > parish records or the Australian records (or any other mention of him, in > fact), so have no idea whether he ever actually returned to England, or > whether being a widow was a polite fiction for a husband that never > returned.... > > I assume that, having completed their service, convicts were free to > return to England but how did they get back? Did the government provide a > berth on a ship back, or were they just cut loose to find their own way? > In which case, how did they afford the fare... > > Any pointers would be gratefully received! > Ursula > >

Rhoda, I seem to recall that a researcher in Melbourne was collecting all those sad letters to the police and to newspapers asking for information on the whereabouts of various men who had left wives and families behind in England, Scotland and Ireland. They made heartbreaking -- and informative -- reading. Do you know if these are available online now? Sheila

Dear Listers Although not strictly a Perthshire question, I'm hoping someone might be able to answer or point me in the right direction, as this group seems to be a fount of all sorts of knowledge! I have a family member who was transported to Australia in 1835 for 7 years (details from the Australian Convict papers on Ancestry). He completed his term in 1842 and received his pardon, but I have no idea what happened to him then. He had married in England in 1830 and had two children, but by the 1851 census his wife was declaring herself a widow. I can't find any death records for him in either the English parish records or the Australian records (or any other mention of him, in fact), so have no idea whether he ever actually returned to England, or whether being a widow was a polite fiction for a husband that never returned.... I assume that, having completed their service, convicts were free to return to England but how did they get back? Did the government provide a berth on a ship back, or were they just cut loose to find their own way? In which case, how did they afford the fare... Any pointers would be gratefully received! Ursula

>From Perthshire Digest - Vol 6 - issue 4 Glen Banchor was home to a lot of Kennedys who often migrated to lowland Perthshire. What was the record that provided the link back there, a census entry or matching OPR entry? I'd be interested to hear when you think they came, occupations, any other surnames that accompanied them etc. Iain Kennedy http://www.kennedydna.com The information I have for the family is given below - working backwards in time. Jane MacRae DOCTOR (only has middle name on one single piece of proof so middle name may be dubious) b 1/12/1844 in Lawton, Cargill, Perthshire, d 14/5/1937 in Dundee, m 27/11/1868 in Lawton Cargill, Perthshire to James LOWDEN. James was a ploughman, carter, coal carter and stone breaker at various stages of his adult life. Her parents were James DOCTOR and Cecilia HENDERSON. James was born 3/2/1808 in Cargill, Perthshire, d 12/7/1893 at Lawton Cottages, Cargill. They married 23/11/1828 in Cargill, Perthshire. Cecilia HENDERSON was born 11/7/1802 in Buttergask, Cargill and died 1/12/1876 in Lawton, Cargill. James was a gardener and land steward. Cecilia HENDERSON'S parents were Peter HENDERSON and Isabella SMITH who both died before 1876, but this is all I know about them other than Peter was a wood sawyer. James DOCTOR'S (b 3/2/1808) parents were John DOCTOR and Jane MACRAE. John was b bef 1792 (based on being 16 at birth of fist child I know of) and died before 1851. He was a weaver and pendicler. He married Jane probably before 1808. I have found 2 children so far - James (listed above) and George DOCTOR, b 6/1/1817 in Milrig, Cargill, Perthshire. I have him listed on his wife's death certificate (1876) and also his son James's death certificate (1893). His wife was Jane MACRAE, worked out as b Abt 1784 in Glenbanachar, Kingussie, and died 28/1/1876 in Burrletown, Cargill, Perthshire. I have not yet found her 1841 census. I have her listed as living alone (but next door to ohers in the family) in the 1851 census aged 66, widowed, an outdoor ag labourer, born Glenbanachar and head of house at 43 North of ??? (could be Firth or Forth of) Lawton, Cargill. Her name is spelt MCRAW (DOB would be abt 1785) In 1861 she lives again alone at 24 Lawton Cottages, Cargill. She is listed as head, widowed, 75 years old, an outdoor labourer and b in Kingussie. Her name is spelt MCCRAW. (DOB would be abt 1786) In 1871 she is listed as a boarder at 13 Lawton Cottages, Cargill living with a family of James SMALL and his daughter Marjory SMALL. She is 87 years old, no occupation and b Kingussie. The spelling is again MCCRAW. (DOB would be abt 1784) On her death certificate, 28/1/1876 in Burrleton, Cargill aged 92 her father is listed as Donald MACRAE, pendicler and mother is not listed. (DOB would be abt 1784) On her son's death certificate (1893) she is listed as Jane DOCTOR (MS MACRAE) Names given to children were James and George as chidren of John Doctor (b 1792) and Jane MacRae. James Doctor (1808) and Cecilia Henderson (1802) called their children Cecilia Henderson D, Ann Whittet D, and Jane MacRae D. The Cecilia is from the mother and the Jane is from the grandmother but I have not yet linked anyone to the Ann Whittet name although I have a link on her death certificate that a Margaret Whittet was the informant for her death certificate and is listed as second cousin. These Whittets seem to have stayed in Burrleton and Ann acted as a witness for one of the childrens weddings in Burrleton. There also seems to be a family called LINDSAY who visited during one of the census returns and a son probably (also LINDSAY) who witnessed Jane DOCTOR'S and James LOWDEN'S wedding. This is about all of the information I have going back to link Cargill, Perthshire with Glen Banachar, Kingussie. My guess is she moved south before 1808 and the birth of her first known child at about 24 years old. She may have been back in Glenbanachar in 1841 but I can't seem to find any links in the census. If her family was still staying there she may have been visiting. Still plenty of hunting areas for me to work with.

Glen Banchor was home to a lot of Kennedys who often migrated to lowland Perthshire. What was the record that provided the link back there, a census entry or matching OPR entry? I'd be interested to hear when you think they came, occupations, any other surnames that accompanied them etc. Iain Kennedy http://www.kennedydna.com > Date: Sun, 2 Jan 2011 22:24:44 +0000 > From: mcrae.j@sky.com > To: perthshire@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [PERTHSHIRE] England and Britain > > Anyway, rant over - sorry - and while I'm here, if anyone is searching in > Perthshire for a DOCTOR family from Cargill and surrounding areas, I would > be interested. Also looking for Jane/Jean MACRAE/MCCRAW/MCCRAE who married > into this family and was originally from Glenbanachar, near Kingussie. > Dates are all from about 1790 onwards with Jane/Jean dying in Burrletown in > January 1876. Milrig, Cargill seems to have been her residence for a while > about 1815-1820 at least, with Lawtown Cottages, Cargill her main residence > for the rest of her time in Perthshire. >

Message 4 etc - re Andy Murray For the history of this google "Andy Murray" "Tim Henman" "anyone but England". Should give you a good insight into hoops to be jumped through, etc.

>From message 3 of Perthshire Digest, Vol6, Issue 1 Gordon. Mmmmm! Not usual to get political style comments on the postings but your one caught the eye. Maybe it's just me after a very fraught time of family visits during the holiday period, and I may have read this the wrong way, but ... What did you mean when you said "I like to point out that if they persist in using England to mean Britain, this gives ammunition to the Scottish Nationalist Party!" That sounds as though you think this is a bad thing and surely needs to have an oppposing point of view for balance. I just wonder what is so wrong with 'giving amunition' to one of the very few 'Scottish' political parties who want to govern over its own land, rather than the other 3 main parties all of who are UK/England based and therefore have the UK/England as their main concerns? Come the revolution, hopefully there will be more choice of Scottish parties to vote for in a truly independent Scottish parliament. Anyway, if overseas readers are interested in what is actually happening in Scotland at present and in the lead up to the election in May there are a few good blog sites available that are not all pointing towards foreign control of my country. http://newsnetscotland.com/ is a good place to start because it is banned by the BBC in Scotland. Find out what the fuss is about (if you can - tell the rest of us as we can't figure it out). This site gives video clips of First Ministers Question Time with no additional commentry, so that listeners can make up their own minds. http://caledonianmercury.com/ is a good web based newspaper and the sketches by Rab are always entertaining about the going-ons in the chamber at First Ministers Question Time. Anyway, rant over - sorry - and while I'm here, if anyone is searching in Perthshire for a DOCTOR family from Cargill and surrounding areas, I would be interested. Also looking for Jane/Jean MACRAE/MCCRAW/MCCRAE who married into this family and was originally from Glenbanachar, near Kingussie. Dates are all from about 1790 onwards with Jane/Jean dying in Burrletown in January 1876. Milrig, Cargill seems to have been her residence for a while about 1815-1820 at least, with Lawtown Cottages, Cargill her main residence for the rest of her time in Perthshire. Blianna mhath ur agus slainte mhath to all over the next year. John

To: perthshire@rootsweb.com Subject: [PERTHSHIRE] alternate first names (was Donald/Daniel) But another one I find interesting is where a girl born in mid 19th century Fife is named Jemima after her maternal grandmother, Jacobina. best wishes, Sheila Perry Is Jemima derived from Jamesina? Jamesina (we have one in NW Scotland mid C19) would equate with Jacobina; Jacob Latin for James. M Robinson. When replying to a message or a digest, please delete everything except the portion to which you are replying. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to PERTHSHIRE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Happy New Year to all. Our public have voted in a fellow called English into parliament down here. And, what a pickle the finance is in. By the way, only a Scot would realise, that one can use 2005 calendars for 2011 (recovered from a bottom draw of better calendars). 2010 ones are OK for 2021 and 2027. Dont keep leap yr ones (2008, 2012 etc). They can only recycle every 28 yrs. Are there any CUMMING folk (Little Dunkeld, Fowlis Wester, Crieff) on this site ? Richard.