> > First of all, there was a chart showing the relationship between the > United Presbyterian Church and its predecessors such as the Original > Seceders at the website of St. Nicholas Buccleugh. try http://www.stnicholasbuccleuch.org.uk/

Hi Yvonne The advice is usually to try the Established Church records first anyway (i.e. OPRs as indexed in IGI). The local Church of Scotland minister will probably have tried to record events in his parish regardless of denomination. The National Archives of Scotland say that they have copies of all Roman Catholic baptismal and marriage records: http://www.nas.gov.uk/family_history.htm then 'Family History FAQ' and FAQ number 1. This article explains their position on searching their records for you: http://www.nas.gov.uk/services_to_researchers.htm and my interpretation of that is that they may look out and copy a record for you if you can be specific about what you want. It seems that St Mary's at Kinnoull is still active: http://www.kinnoull.org/ Hope that helps Gavin. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Yvonne Izatt" <yvon@alphalink.com.au> To: <PERTHSHIRE-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, October 27, 2003 4:02 AM Subject: [PERTH] Catholic Records > Hello > > Could someone advise me where to look for Catholic baptismal records In Kinnoull. Looking for a George Low born c 1820 > > Yvonne > Australia > > > ==== PERTHSHIRE Mailing List ===Footer: The Perthshire Mailing List is for the exchange of genealogical and historical information about the Perthshire area of Scotland. > http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/intl/SCT/PERTHSHIRE.html > >

Mary and Ann Stalker daughters of Peter Stalker and Isabel Stewart married David Kirk and William Grant and came to Melbourne in 1853. Brother Peter married Ann Tonar and remained in Perth. I'm not sure where the Duffs fit in apart from being part of the children's names. If anyone has a connection of these families I would be delighted to hear from them. In anticipation Betty

Hello Could someone advise me where to look for Catholic baptismal records In Kinnoull. Looking for a George Low born c 1820 Yvonne Australia

HI Gavin, I would be grateful if you check to see whether they are any GENTLEs buried at Cargill. I am looking for the deaths of David GENTLE, farmer and Christina MARTIN. They had the following known children Margaret, James, Isobel, Elpseth, Alexander and David christened or baptised at Cargill between 1799 and 1810. Both David and Christina were deceased by 1870, when the first known child had died. The christening entries on the IGI only record a father's name. The surname may also be recorded as GENTLEMAN. Thanks, Rhonda Canberra, Australia ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gavin Ramsay" <gavin@errol100.freeserve.co.uk> To: <PERTHSHIRE-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2003 7:55 PM Subject: Re: [PERTH] RE: DAVID CRAIKs D.C. > Hi Carolyn > > I'm not too far from Cargill, and am willing to have a look in the graveyard > (presuming that it still exists!) for you and the others who have mentioned > ancestors who may lie there. You may have to wait a while, as I cannot do > it today, and as our clocks have just changed it will now be dark when I > leave work. > > However, I agree with Dorothy - it is most unlikely that a pauper would have > a headstone. > > Regarding the DC - if you do manage to download a TIF file (even if you > can't open it), do send it on and one of us may be able to decipher the > writing for you. > > For anyone researching Scottish ancestors, there is a wonderful resource at > the National Library of Scotland, mentioned before on this group I think but > worth reiterating now. Why not try this for Burrelton, and you will see > that Cargill lies at one side of the parish and Burrelton at the other. > Before going to the NLS site it is wise to try multimap or (my preference as > the landscape features are displayed better) www.streetmap.co.uk, so that > you know roughly where in Perthshire (in this case) to find the > parish/village of interest. Then: > > http://www.nls.uk/ > > 'Maps' > 'Maps of Scotland 1560-1928' > under 'Geographic area', 'Counties of Scotland 1580-1928' > 'Perthshire' > then for you I'd recommend the James Knox map of 1850. > > Why the difficulty finding his parents in IGI? Of course they may have > moved into the county, as others have suggested. They may not have > registered the birth or their marriage, but perhaps a little more likely is > that that they belonged to one of the other churches. The records may still > exist, and if so are likely to be in Edinburgh at the National Archives of > Scotland (www.nas.gov.uk). Unfortunately they are not on a database, and > need to be searched in person. > > Is this the full list of people wanting information from Cargill graveyard? > > Carolyn: Craik, esp. 1858 > Anne: Dingwall/ell > Barbara: Thomson > > all the best > > Gavin. >

Dear Ursula, I see this is an old message in a fairly current Digest and I am not sure how it just surfaced. First of all, there was a chart showing the relationship between the United Presbyterian Church and its predecessors such as the Original Seceders at the website of St. Nicholas Buccleugh. I have checked their old URL but it no longer is good, and Google was no help. If you need it I think I may be able to forward the chart to you. The Wilson Church, which was in Scott St. in Perth, was a UP church which closed around 1970. I have ancestors who belonged to that church. I don't recall ever seeing it referred to as the North Church. Here is some information about the Wilson Church from some research I commissioned (In the course of this research the session records of the church were found and passed, I believe, to the Archivist at the AK Bell Library in Perth.) Wilson Church (The United Presbyterian Church) ? was formed by the Rev. William Wilson, Minister of Perth, and those who seceded with him from the Established Church in 1733. Mr Wilson continued to preach in the Parish Church until 1740, when he was interdicted. In November of that year his congregation moved to worship in a Church they had erected in High Street. After a year they enlarged it - adding galleries. Mr Wilson died in 1741, and was succeeded by the Revs. George Brown, John Jervie, Jedidiah Aikman, John Newlands, D.D., Thomas Miller, and Dr. Dickie (now of Dowanhill). The Rev. John Addie is its present minister." Source- p.49, Auld Perth, pub. 1906, AK Bell Library, Perth More comprehensive information on the Wilson Church can be found in The History of United Presbyterian Congregations 1733 - 1900, Vol. 2 bySmall. A copy of this book can be found in the Reference Library, AK Bell Library, Perth. Off the M90, south of Kinross on the B996 there is a large obelisk approx. 30 ft. high. The following inscription is on it - "To commemmorate the formation of the first Presbytery of the Secession Church at Gairney Bridge 6th December 1733 for the maintenance of Scripture, Truth and the Rights of Christian People. - Eben. Erskine, Wm. Wilson, Alex. Moncrieff, & J.S. Fisher, Ministers - Erected December 1883. Alan Cairnie Perth, Ontario > From: > Ursula <ursularclarke@yahoo.com> > To: > PERTHSHIRE-L@rootsweb.com > > Hello, > > I have discoverd, via Small's History of the > congregations of the UP church, that my GGGrandfather > JAMES GOWANS was appointed minister at Kilwilling, > Ayrshire, having come from Perth (North). Small, > however, doesn't list any other parishes for James so > I assume that he was probably a deacon (or whatever > the Secessionist equivalent is) at Perth. > > Does anyone know of any other resources I might check > to confirm this? > > In hope... > > Ursula > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Everything you'll ever need on one web page > from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts > http://uk.my.yahoo.com

Hello all, Can anyone enlighten me on the degrees of kinship allowed in marriage? I was always under the impression that first cousins were too close relations to marry but in 1857 I have Robert Duncan and Mary Maconochie marrying in Dron and they are first cousins - and listed as such in the marriage register. Could they get special permission to marry and if so who from? Any ideas? Cheers, Ursula ________________________________________________________________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger http://mail.messenger.yahoo.co.uk

It seems surprising but it was perfectly acceptable to marry your first cousin and no special dispensation was needed. Interesting, in England until 1907 it was not permitted to marry your deceased wife's sister or your deceased husband's brother, even though they were not related by blood. I don't know if the same applied to Scotland. Carol Baird ctbaird@telus.net

Hello Sheila First of all the two marriage records for Robert McKenzie and Agnes Blair you have are actually records of Banns which were called at that time in the Bride and Groom's respective parishes. So a look at either of the Old Parish Registers should determine who lived where. I see from Familysearch there was also a Christian McKenzie born to the couple at Strathblane 1. CHRISTIAN MCKENZIE - International Genealogical Index Gender: Female Christening: 09 JUL 1809 Strathblane, Stirling, Scotland 2. ELIZABETH MCKENZIE - International Genealogical Index Gender: Female Christening: 20 AUG 1812 Strathblane, Stirling, Scotland My ggreat grandfather was a Toll Keeper in later life but he worked on road building first. Have a look at the Strathblane Parish Registers to see if Robert's occupation and address are given at the time of his children's births. If so,and he was a Toll Keeper then, contact the main Library in Stirling to see of they have any archives on Toll Keepers in Stirling. Perth Archives have a fantastic collection of records for Toll Roads and Toll Keepers. Re Elizabeth's McKenzie's age at death, sometimes the information on certificates is not correct. The informant sometimes didn't really know or the deceased lied about their age in the first place, there are many reasons Hope this helps Kay -----Original Message----- From: Sheila Martin [mailto:elinor.martin@btinternet.com] Sent: 26 October 2003 00:37 To: PERTHSHIRE-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [PERTH] MCKENZIE/BLAIR - Aberfeldy Hello all you Perthshire listers, I'm new to your list and hope that someone may be able to help me. The death record of my gg grandmother, Elizabeth MCKENZIE, lists her parents as being, Robert MCKENZIE, toll keeper, and Agnes BLAIR. Looking for their marriage in the GRO, the only Robert MCKENZIE/Agnes BLAIR marriage was either at Aberfeldy or Drymen, in June 1797, as it is listed at both. Again the only Elizabeth MCKENZIE, born to parents so named, was born in Strathblane in August 1812, but this would make her eight years older than she was listed at her death. Can anyone please throw any light on this family, and where might Robert have been a toll keeper? Thanks in anticipation, Kind regards, Sheila Martin ______________________________

There is free software available for reading tif files (and most other image formats)- Irfanview from http://www.irfanview.com/ If you can get your image on to the screen then you can save it. Xnview from http://www.xnview.com/ gives a few more options than the basic 'Prt Scrn' button and saving into a suitable package. This is assuming a Windows computer Win95 or later. Jeff

Hello Listers, I am researching a Geekie family of Perthshire. I have information that states James Geekie and past generations lived at Belgrove, Scotland. They were farmers and friends on the ancestral estate of Lord Gordan Halliburton. Altho' various spellings tried, I can't locate Belgrove on Atlas. Can any one help with this and where Lord Halliburton estate may have been located? Even its name? I believe family may have attended Kettins Parish Church, but am not absolutley certain. Thank you. Faye Orange Park, Florida

Carolyn, Is the problem the quality of the image or just the poor writing of the Registrar? If it is a question of image problem, all you need to do is submit a Contact Form on SP and they will mail you a paper copy. I have done this where the image has been quite illegible - and the paper copies were perfect. <snip> > P.S. I'd willingly send a copy of the D.C., but I've tried to scan them > before with no luck. Nor will my computer save images downloaded from s'sp > in any 'openable form', which is a pain!! Have you submitted a Contact Form to SP about this problem? They might be able to help you? If not, are you aware of the Discussion Group on SP. If you post your problem to this bulletin board, I feel sure that you will get a lot of help. There might be some very simple answer :-) Or you might not have the appropriate program to open the 'tif' images - I understand that there is suitable freeware around. If you post, it would be a good idea to include details of what machine, browser, etc you are using. Also, it might be worth posting to that Discussion Group your problem with deciphering the certificate. I have noticed that when someone does this, some of the SP user group members (who get an allocation of credits) have a look at it themselves and offer their interpretation. It happened this very day. Cheers, Judy

Hi Carolyn I'm not too far from Cargill, and am willing to have a look in the graveyard (presuming that it still exists!) for you and the others who have mentioned ancestors who may lie there. You may have to wait a while, as I cannot do it today, and as our clocks have just changed it will now be dark when I leave work. However, I agree with Dorothy - it is most unlikely that a pauper would have a headstone. Regarding the DC - if you do manage to download a TIF file (even if you can't open it), do send it on and one of us may be able to decipher the writing for you. For anyone researching Scottish ancestors, there is a wonderful resource at the National Library of Scotland, mentioned before on this group I think but worth reiterating now. Why not try this for Burrelton, and you will see that Cargill lies at one side of the parish and Burrelton at the other. Before going to the NLS site it is wise to try multimap or (my preference as the landscape features are displayed better) www.streetmap.co.uk, so that you know roughly where in Perthshire (in this case) to find the parish/village of interest. Then: http://www.nls.uk/ 'Maps' 'Maps of Scotland 1560-1928' under 'Geographic area', 'Counties of Scotland 1580-1928' 'Perthshire' then for you I'd recommend the James Knox map of 1850. Why the difficulty finding his parents in IGI? Of course they may have moved into the county, as others have suggested. They may not have registered the birth or their marriage, but perhaps a little more likely is that that they belonged to one of the other churches. The records may still exist, and if so are likely to be in Edinburgh at the National Archives of Scotland (www.nas.gov.uk). Unfortunately they are not on a database, and need to be searched in person. Is this the full list of people wanting information from Cargill graveyard? Carolyn: Craik, esp. 1858 Anne: Dingwall/ell Barbara: Thomson all the best Gavin.

Hello all you Perthshire listers, I'm new to your list and hope that someone may be able to help me. The death record of my gg grandmother, Elizabeth MCKENZIE, lists her parents as being, Robert MCKENZIE, toll keeper, and Agnes BLAIR. Looking for their marriage in the GRO, the only Robert MCKENZIE/Agnes BLAIR marriage was either at Aberfeldy or Drymen, in June 1797, as it is listed at both. Again the only Elizabeth MCKENZIE, born to parents so named, was born in Strathblane in August 1812, but this would make her eight years older than she was listed at her death. Can anyone please throw any light on this family, and where might Robert have been a toll keeper? Thanks in anticipation, Kind regards, Sheila Martin

Greetings to All, Thank you so much to those who helped me with this D.C. I am truly grateful. If it's Burrelton, (of which place I know nothing, being in Australia!), the Registrar has an awful way of spelling it! I do agree that certainly the first letters could be 'Burrelton', but there appears to be 'ro' tacked on the end. I'll take it as Burrelton, though. As to the cause of death, it could read Unknown. Was that ever acceptable in a D.C.? It looks as if it does start with 'Un', followed by about 7 letters. (It's not Ulceration). I suppose I don't really need to know of what he died. Maybe I'll ask scotland'speople as Mary suggested. Does anyone have any M.I.s for Cargill Churchyard for CRAIK or CRAIG? In the country town in which I live, there is no working LDS Church available. If there is sks who happens to be going to an LDS centre and could possibly look up the relevant 1841/1851 census (Batch C113384), I would be so grateful. A big ask, I know and if it costs money, I could return the favour by doing a look-up on s'sp for you. Many thanks for past and hopefully forthcoming help. I always though Perth records were so much more detailed than those of Angus! They seem to have failed with this one! I'd just love to know who the mother Ann NICOLL and the father, James CRAIK, Farmer were!! Best regards, Carolyn. P.S. I'd willingly send a copy of the D.C., but I've tried to scan them before with no luck. Nor will my computer save images downloaded from s'sp in any 'openable form', which is a pain!! Thanks for listening.

Hi, All, I know that I also have relatives buried in Cargill churchyard. Does anyone have any info on THOMSON stones or deaths? Much thanks in advance. Regards. _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail

Greetings to all, This is my first posting to this list and it is on behalf of a friend. The family she is researching is that of Alexander DRYSDALE, b. Dollar, Clackmannanshire 1787. He m. Margaret HALLY in Dollar in 1806. They were farm labourers and moved around often amongst Perthshire, Fife and Clackmannanshire. Margaret was the daughter of James HALLY AND Janet MACCARA. The children of Alexander and Margaret were all born in Tulliallan, Perthshire: Janet - b. 1808 Alexander - b. 1813 Margaret - b. 1816 James - b. 1818 Christian - b. 1822 They appear to have disappeared from the OPRs after 1822. Alexander (b.1787) is the eldest of the family of nine children of James DRYSDALE and Christian FERGUS. The other eight all came to Canada in 1820 and 1022. No record has be found that Alexander came. A letter exists in the Colonial Office files that he wanted to come. My friend would like to find the descendants of Alexander DRYSDALE and Margaret HALLY. She has extensive information about the others of the family that came to Canada and would be pleased to share information. Thank you, David Lindsay Giacomelli on Vancouver Island, British Columbia

Morning Carolyn, The IGI has only a small slice of records on its index. What you should be looking at is the OPR [Old Parochial Records] index which is on CD at the LDS library. The first thing you should do is to look at the 1851 Census for the parish of Cargill. You can do this through your local LDS library for $6 .... extracting all Craik references that you find - you may find the nephew as well. If he is in Cargill, it should give you a place of birth for David. The Scots moved around, so he may've been born outside the county. You have his parents, his place of birth is next. Busselltauroi = Burrelton ? Hope this assists Bonnie B. Subject: [PERTH] HELP WITH D.C. NEEDED Greetings to all, Could SKS please help? 1858 DEATHS IN THE PARISH OF CARGILL IN THE COUNTY OF PERTH David CRAIK Pauper f....(unreadable) Single February 2nd 11.30p.m. (Looks like Busselltauro(?) 72 years Parents: James CRAIK Farmer (deceased); Ann CRAIK M.S. NICOLL (deceased) Unreadable cause. Not Certified No Medical Attendant Cargill Churchyard Certified by Peter Stewart Keeper of Churchyard Informant: William CRAIK Nephew (Present) Registered at Cargill by Alex Fergusson Registrar. I've searched all over the IGI, but cannot find him or his parents or his nephew. Does anyone have any ideas, please? Would there be a headstone still extant in Cargill Churchyard? Thanks for listening. Cheers, Carolyn. Australia. ______________________________

Looks like Busselltauro(?) Carolyn, this would probably be Burrelton. If you check on multimap.com you will see it is quite close to Cargill. Sorry I can't help with your family, but if David was a pauper, the chances of him having a headstone are probably quite slim. Regards, Dorothy (Longforgan)

Hello list, This is my first posting to this list - I'm Andy Walsh and I could do with some help please! I have in my tree a Lewis (Louis) HUTTON (Nailmaker), who married Margaret FAIRBAIRN on 1 February 1791, Canongate, Edinburgh. I'm trying to establish if my Lewis HUTTON is the Ludovick (Latin for Lewis?) HUTTON whose Christening is recorded in Perth (3 June 1770) son of Andrew HUTTON and Janet CLINK. What has raised my suspicion is the discovery that one of his children was born in Perth, so perhaps they were visiting family? His children are: Napier HUTTON b 31.1.1791 Canongate, Edinburgh Janet HUTTON b 10.1.1793 Canongate, Edinburgh James HUTTON b 25.1.1796 PERTH Lewis HUTTON b 21.2.1800 Canongate, Edinburgh Andrew HUTTON b 25.2.1803 Canongate, Edinburgh John HUTTON b 19.10.1806 Canongate, Edinburgh Robert HUTTON b 18.4.1813 Canongate, Edinburgh Alexander Waddel HUTTON b 22.10.1816 Canongate, Edinburgh. Can anyone give me clues to how I could establish if my Lewis is Ludovick? The parish record of Lewis's marriage doesn't give details of his parents. Any help would be gratefully received. Andy Walsh (Sheffield UK)