Exactly right, on all counts (especially about it being confusing! ;-) Thanks! And have a wonderful Christmas! Cheers, Katherine >Hi Katherine, > Thanks for the clarification. Its obviously confusing. The >Internet has fueled an information revolution which blurs the lines >even more. I doubt that any genealogy organization wants to keep >members from sharing. This goes back to the fair use you mentioned, >and the lifting of facts only. How those facts are arranged seems to >be the copyright part. Have I got this right so far? >-----Original Message----- >From: Katherine Cochrane <[email protected]> >To: [email protected] <[email protected]> >Date: Friday, December 24, 1999 2:37 PM >Subject: Re: [PENNINGTON-L] Re: [PRA]: Group 10 Information > > > >William, > > > >Please re-read my earlier message. Making one copy for personal or > >scholarly research is authorized under the Fair Use clause of the > >Copyright act. When libraries make a copy for someone (say, for > >InterLibrary Loan), they are doing that as the agent of the > >researcher, which is also covered under Fair Use (libraries are > >specifically mentioned in the Act). Someone may not plan to > >distribute anything she's given, but if someone other than the > >author, copyright holder (author, author's heirs or publisher who has > >a copyright) makes those copies and gives them to her, that person is > >doing distribution. By asking someone to do that, one is asking them > >to break the law, and becomes an accessory to an illegal action. > > > >There is a way around all this mess -- if someone reads an article > >and quotes small portions of it, or rephrases the facts (citing the > >original author as their source, of course), that's called research > >or scholarship, and is perfectly within the law. It is the > >EXPRESSION of a work that is copyrighted, not discrete facts embedded > >within it. So, if I write a biography of my GGGG grandfather, Riggs > >Pennington, you can't legally copy it and give it away or sell it, > >but you can discover within that work that I believe Riggs was the > >son of Timothy Pennington, that he was a land surveryor and he died > >in Texas after living in KY, IN and IL, and you are perfectly free to > >use those bits of information any way you like. If you properly cite > >your source, you're doing good genealogy research, but even if you > >don't it's not illegal to use the information itself. Remember that > >ethics, law and rules of research are three different things, even > >though they overlap in many areas. > > > >Look, I didn't write this law, and I'm not a lawyer, and I'm not > >even writing this as a PRA representative. I'm not on the PRA Board, > >I don't make policy for the group. I'm simply trying to provide some > >information to this group (and the PRA Board) about the law that I've > >had to acquire (and abide by, and expect others to abide by) in my > >business as a publisher. It's really pretty simple. If you don't > >own something, you can't give it away without stealing it unless you > >have the owner's permission to do so. Intellectual property is still > >property, just like personal property or real property. If you take > >the results of someone's work, whether it is from a writer or a > >woodcarver or a car manufacturer, and give it to someone else without > >paying the maker (or the maker's distributor) for it and without the > >maker's permission, you're guilty of theft regardless of whether you > >made a profit on it or not. The confusion arises in the case of > >intellectual property because the law actually allows one to do this > >in a limited way under certain conditions, but if you don't meet > >those conditions you are violating the law. > > > >The PRA board is trying very hard to understand how to make the > >literature they've published over the past 30-40 years available and > >still be legal and not bankrupt the organization by reproducing > >material without compensation. Progress really is happening, but > >remember this is a volunteer organization, and that sometimes makes > >things take longer than if it was a commercial outfit doing it. > > > >Katherine > > > > > > > >>I suppose the libraries are breaking the law by having the copy > >>machines there. Why, because what is there to copy in libraries but > >>copyrighted works Sue already stated that she did not intend to > >>distribute the material. Your splitting hairs here. > >>-----Original Message----- > >>From: Katherine Cochrane <[email protected]> > >>To: [email protected] <[email protected]> > >>Date: Friday, December 24, 1999 1:52 AM > >>Subject: Re: [PENNINGTON-L] Re: [PRA]: Group 10 Information > >> > >> > >> >Ask your friend's husband if he's willing to defend someone in >court > >> >on that basis. Yes, many people break the law and get away with >it, > >> >mainly because it's generally more expensive to pursue violators >than > >> >to ignore them, but it is still illegal and unethical to copy and > >> >distribute without permission work that you didn't create or hold > >> >copyrights to. Just because you can get away with something >doesn't > >> >mean it's the right thing to do. Making a copy for personal >research > >> >is allowed under the law (in the "Fair Use" clause) but taking >that > >> >copy and giving it to someone else ("publishing" or >"distributing") > >> >is not allowed, whether one tries to make a profit from it or >not. > >> >The sense of the law is that whether you make a profit or not, >you > >> >could be denying the author or publisher their rightful profit by > >> >making it unnecessary for another reader to buy the work. > >> > > >> >Now, in the case of the PRA publications, there are not profits > >> >involved, but there are costs. The back issues of Pennington > >> >Pedigrees are expensive to print and distribute. There IS >discussion > >> >ongoing about how to make information from back issues available >at > >> >little or no cost to those interested, but it will take some time >to > >> >work out the details. One complication is that to observe the >law, > >> >permission should be obtained from all the authors (or the >authors' > >> >heirs) to republish their work under the new plan. That's quite >a > >> >task, as you might imagine. But publishing is not a trivial > >> >undertaking if it's done right. Another complication is that >even > >> >using electronic publishing and volunteer labor, there are some >costs > >> >involved in producing PRA literature, and membership dues alone >do > >> >not cover them. Maybe you can make some suggestions about how PP > >> >articles could be distributed in a way that (1) doesn't violate >the > >> >authors' rights and (2) doesn't cost more than is feasible. >Other > >> >people in the PRA are working to make this happen, and I'm sure >your > >> >help would be welcome, too. > >> > > >> >Katherine > >> > > >> > > >> >>Katherine Cochrane wrote: > >> >> > > >> >> > Sue, > >> >> > > >> >> > So, because it is inconvenient for you, you advocate >breaking > >>the law? > >> >> > > >> >> > Katherine > >> >> > > >> >> > >Hello, > >> >> > >I would like to thank all of the wonderful people that >offered > >>their > >> >> > >help when I recently emailed a plea for some of the >information > >>in the > >> >> > >older issues of Pennington Pedigrees. Today I got that > >>material from > >> >> > >one of the Pennington angels, and it was so exciting to >read > >>through > >> >> > >what some of the previous researchers had to say about the > >>family. An > >> >> > >unexpected surprise was some information on another of my > >>husband's > >> >> > >lines. You just never know what you may find! > >> >> > > > >> >> > >I did receive one email telling me that the information >could > >>not be > >> >> > >sent due to copyright laws. I think that the Pennington > >>officers, or > >> >> > >the membership as a whole, needs to re-think their policy >here. > >>Most > >> >> > >researchers "share" their information. I've run across >very > >>few that > >> >> > >are only "takers." > >> >> > >That information in the older issues, for the most part, is > >>completely > >> >> > >lost to new members. Of course, they can purchase all >issues > >>that might > >> >> > >contain a few pages, but at what cost? > >> >> > > > >> >> > >Here's what the problems boils down to: As a member, who >paid > >>money to > >> >> > >join, I was unable to obtain the information about my group > >>because of > >> >> > >copyright laws. But any non-member can walk into any >library > >>where > >> >> > >issues might be located, and can Xerox just as many pages >as > >>they wish. > >> >> > >No problem. I often go to the State Archives here in GA., >and > >>there is > >> >> > >usually a line at the Xerox machine. People Xerox from >books > >>and > >> >> > >periodicals all the day long. So, isn't there a problem >with > >>how this > >> >> > >is being handled? Is this fair to people who pays dues to >join > >>your > >> >> > >organization? > >> >> > > > >> >> > >Just a little something you might want to think about, and >come > >>up with > >> >> > >a plan for the benefit of your members. Again, thanks for >all > >>of the > >> >> > >help, and have a Merry Christmas! > >> >> > >Sue > >> >> > >==== PRA Mail List -- Visit our Web Site at > >> >> > > http://www.penningtonresearch.org > >> >> > >NOTE: All material submitted to this list may be used on >the > >>PRA web site > >> >> > >or in other PRA publications, with proper credit to the >author. > >> >> > >__________________________________________________________ > >> >> > > List hosted by SOHOWeb.net -- The Small Business IPP. > >> >> > >Our goal: your success. Find out more at http://sohoweb.net > >> >> > > or via e-mail at [email protected] > >> >> > > >> >> > ==== PENNINGTON Mailing List ==== > >> >> > Do not post virus warnings on this list. > >> >> > Practice safe e-mail habits and only open attachments you >are > >>expecting > >> >> > For addition virus info see > >>http://www.symantec.com/us.index.html or > >> >> > http://www.mcafee.com/ > >> >> > >> >>I have a good friend who is married to a lawyer. What he said >was > >>that > >> >>if you are not copying it to claim as your own, and you don't >intend > >>to > >> >>turn around and make a profit from it, you're fine. I am not > >>writing a > >> >>book. I do not intend to sell the information. And when I see > >>people > >> >>lined up at Xerox machines, do you advocate eliminating that? I > >>like to > >> >>have material at home in front of me when I'm working, to >compare > >>it, > >> >>etc. Sometimes, if you have a lot of information spread out in > >>front of > >> >>you, you sometimes see something that you had missed previously. > >>It's > >> >>great when that light bulb comes on. So, no, I am not telling > >>anyone to > >> >>make copies and sell them, or claim them as their own. > >> >>Sue > >> >> > >> >> > >> >>==== PENNINGTON Mailing List ==== > >> >>To search the archives of this mail list see > >> >>http://searches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl > >> >>The NEW Pennington Research Association Web Site > >> >>http://penningtonresearch.org Update your bookmark! > >> > > >> > > >> >==== PENNINGTON Mailing List ==== > >> >The Pennington Research Association Web Site > >> >http://penningtonresearch.org > >> >for subscribe and unsub instructions, > >> >follow the links to e-mail group. > >> > > >> > >> > >>==== PENNINGTON Mailing List ==== > >>Happy Holidays > > > > > >==== PENNINGTON Mailing List ==== > >This Pennington mail list is hosted by Rootsweb. > >To subscribe to Rootsweb, and show your support of their efforts, see > >http://www.rootsweb.com/rootsweb/how-to-subscribe.html > > > > >==== PENNINGTON Mailing List ==== >This Pennington mail list is hosted by Rootsweb. >To subscribe to Rootsweb, and show your support of their efforts, see >http://www.rootsweb.com/rootsweb/how-to-subscribe.html